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SLF3
27th Jul 2018, 12:15
I understand the test for delay is 'first door open on arrival'.

Most websites seem to report touch down time.

Is there a publically available source of 'doors open' data: for example for Heathrow?

Since the airline in question has no compunction about charging me excessive amounts for anything that goes wrong I would like to reciprocate!

Johnny [email protected] Pants
27th Jul 2018, 13:26
Is there a publically available source of 'doors open' data

I sincerely doubt it.

S.o.S.
27th Jul 2018, 15:55
It is a complex and fraught subject, SLF3. Do look at other discussion threads here - there are many. They will help you find the legal definition but, crucially, many of the get outs that airlines try to use. Firstly, they ALWAYS rebuff a claim. This is because many then give up. The key definition is the delay of arrival after the scheduled time.

As a point to the future, if delayed, it can be very useful to take a photograph of the arrival board, or to do so online as soon as you get home.

SLF3
27th Jul 2018, 18:28
The European Court of Justice ruling (of 14 Sept 2014) seems quite unambiguous: when the first door is opened.

i took a photo and the metadata shows the time (after 3 hours) and the location (still taxiing). So ‘on stand’ time would do.

But where is the data available?

SLF3
27th Jul 2018, 20:26
Thanks for the steer. I tried the airline and Heathrow websites first, both show touchdown as arrival time, under 3 hours. Imagine my surprise. Flightaware (free) shows on stand time, over 3 hours, exactly as I recall. Flightradar shows on stand time as exactly 3 hours but the track log shows the plane still moving five minutes later. Which doesn't engender a lot of confidence in the impartiality of Flightradar.

PAXboy
27th Jul 2018, 23:25
FR24 is not as accurate on the ground as it is in the air. Partly to do with radio wave propagation. But they do sometimes show flights as taxying = showing speed but the icon does not move. As is as the Mod said, they will always reject your first - and possibly second - application.

Mark in CA
1st Aug 2018, 10:26
Flight Stats usually shows Gate Time and Runway Time, and it also shows the flight log where all entries are made for tail number, estimated and actual times for departure and arrival gate and runway times, gate numbers, etc.. From watching these values for various flights, it seems to me that not all airlines are "honest" about the times they post. There are often missing times, too. All part of the game, I guess.

Porky Speedpig
2nd Aug 2018, 06:25
Flight Stats usually shows Gate Time and Runway Time, and it also shows the flight log where all entries are made for tail number, estimated and actual times for departure and arrival gate and runway times, gate numbers, etc.. From watching these values for various flights, it seems to me that not all airlines are "honest" about the times they post. There are often missing times, too. All part of the game, I guess.

I have to say as someone who has appeared as a witness in many Eu261 court cases that I have the opposite view Mark, the airlines and airports invest hundreds of million pounds/dollars/euro in technology that accurately records such times. Other interested parties (such as trade unions representing workforces who are paid according to these times) audit such systems so there is zero chance of any fiddling. On the other hand the various sites and apps which have sprung up over the years have some level of inaccuracy and inference built in of necessity.

Apologies, fake news. It has been tested in court(s). And there are no MISSING times except on the apps - Airlines are mandated to record times by the airworthiness authorities, airframe and engine manufacturers etc.

SLF3
3rd Aug 2018, 11:17
OK, accurate data exists. So when you go to appeal, will CEDR have access to it? Is the airline obliged to disclose it?

S.o.S.
4th Aug 2018, 01:20
Many thanks Porky Speedpig for that most helpful information. So, the numerous 'apps' may or may not be accurate. But accuracy exists!

Mark in CA
6th Aug 2018, 14:14
I have to say as someone who has appeared as a witness in many Eu261 court cases that I have the opposite view Mark, the airlines and airports invest hundreds of million pounds/dollars/euro in technology that accurately records such times. Other interested parties (such as trade unions representing workforces who are paid according to these times) audit such systems so there is zero chance of any fiddling. On the other hand the various sites and apps which have sprung up over the years have some level of inaccuracy and inference built in of necessity.

Apologies, fake news. It has been tested in court(s). And there are no MISSING times except on the apps - Airlines are mandated to record times by the airworthiness authorities, airframe and engine manufacturers etc.
Good to know. Thanks for clarifying. Where can lowly SLF gain access to this highly accurate information when necessary?

Porky Speedpig
7th Aug 2018, 02:32
OK, accurate data exists. So when you go to appeal, will CEDR have access to it? Is the airline obliged to disclose it?

Yes, the airline will be required to file as part of its "defence"

Porky Speedpig
7th Aug 2018, 02:33
Good to know. Thanks for clarifying. Where can lowly SLF gain access to this highly accurate information when necessary?

It is not public information but will be disclosed as part of any mediation / court case etc.