Scampton And Linton-on-Ouse Closure

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-arrows-and-dambusters-base-raf-scampton-axed-in-cost-cutting-manoeuvre-rpcmlxzdq

Red Arrows base RAF Scampton axed in cost-cutting manoeuvre

The airbase that is home to the Red Arrows and from which the Dambusters raid was launched in the Second World War is to be sold to save money, The Times has learnt. The disposal of RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire by 2022 is part of the Ministry of Defence’s efforts to save £3 billion by 2040 by reducing its estate in Britain.

The scrapping of the base and runway from which 617 Squadron took off on May 16, 1943, on their mission to attack the dams of the Ruhr valley, is likely to prompt protests. However, defence sources said that the cost of maintaining the site was no longer sustainable and tough choices had to be made at a time of constrained finances. “We are investing in other airbases such as RAF Marham [in Norfolk], home to the F-35,” one senior source said.

Scampton is also the headquarters for 1 Air Control Centre, whose 600 staff help to keep UK airspace safe from hostile aircraft. The Royal Air Force will also withdraw by 2020 from RAF Linton-on-Ouse in North Yorkshire, where fast-jet pilots are trained. Instead training will be concentrated in Anglesey. The Linton base will eventually be sold.

A statement is due today setting out the latest decisions to emerge from a 2016 Ministry of Defence strategy to reduce the defence estate by 30 per cent by 2040. A total of 91 sites owned or managed by the MoD, including barracks and golf courses, will be sold. A number of alternative RAF bases are being looked at to house the Red Arrows.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Graydon, former head of the RAF, said that he was concerned by the scrapping of the base. He said it reduced the number of airfields where military aircraft could be located, which made them more vulnerable to attack. “This is getting close to a saving too far,” he said.

Air Marshal Greg Bagwell, another former senior officer, said that the move would have more emotional than practical significance because the Red Arrows and the training jets at Linton were not part of the frontline fighting force. “You cannot keep telling defence to cut costs and not let them take the decisions that will make them more efficient,” he added.

Defence officials will work with potential buyers to preserve heritage sites at Scampton, including a museum and the grave of the black labrador owned by Guy Gibson, who led the Dambusters.

[Just This Once...]

I guess it is a few years since the last shut-Scampton plan. I wonder if this will lead to the Reds moving out again.

The state of the base is alarming though on its DIO 'no-care & no-maintenance' plan.

[downsizer]

I've heard they are off to Wittering this time.

[jagnut]

Why not close Honington, ideally situated to be a business park close to the A11 and main rail line in the Cambridge/Norwich corridor. Then to save more why not disband the RAF Regiment, do they do anything that the Army can't?

[Stuff]

why not disband the RAF Regiment, do they do anything that the Army can't?

​​​​​​​They can think.

[Herod]

They can think. Love it!

​​​​​​​I see the Times is covering itself by referring to "the black Labrador" rather than by name. In context, the word isn't derogatory or racist, it was the name of a much-loved dog. Still, mustn't upset people I suppose.

[BEagle]

Just This Once wrote: The state of the base is alarming though on its DIO 'no-care & no-maintenance' plan.

How true! Ever since CFS moved out, the infrastructure has been left to rot. Driving past on the A15 you can see how run down and shabby this once proud V-force station, rebuilt with a 9000 ft runway at colossal expense in the late '50s (hence the bend in the A15), has become.

When I did my CFS course there, it was obvious that the place was beginning to deteriorate and certainly wasn't the place I'd known in happier days 10 years earlier. Such a pity. After passing my A2, I never went back nor would ever wish to.

Most of the quarters have already been flogged off and the Officers' Mess is truly a mess. There is little that could be done to restore the station to its previous glory, but there isn't really any need with such a small air force today. Sadly, the place now needs to be put out of its misery - perhaps RAFAT could relocate to Leeming?

As for Linton? Moving Basic Flying Training to Anglesey will be a challenge - and good luck persuading any QFIs to move...

[gijoe]

They can think.

Oh the arrogance of the 100 year experiment with it nasty RAC-like nylon trousers and vile Mess Kit.

The RAF Regiment doesn’t do anything the Army couldn’t.

[Ken Scott]

I did the CFS cse at Scampton shortly before it ‘closed’ in the 90s. The Reds moved to Cranwell but the frequent & regular flying embargos to allow their practice sessions were a nightmare to accommodate within the rest of the station’s program. Their move back to Scampton was a great relief.

As as I recall the sale of Scampton didn’t proceed because of a number of issues - the straightening of the road (there was a clause that it had to be returned to its original route if ever the RAF no longer required the base, £3 million) & the bomb dump still ‘glowed in the dark’, £4 million, prices to fix in 1990s £s).

There was also the small matter of ‘that dog’. It was suggested that he be re-interred with his master in Holland but that would’ve meant admitting there was nothing in the grave, contents either lost during the 50s reconstruction of the airfield or as per a story I heard there never was an actual grave, the 2 erks detailed to carry out the burial having simply chucked the body over a hedge (the dog not being especially popular on the sqn).

[c52]

Why do they try to call this a "saving"? If we sold our car for £5000 I would not think I had saved £5000.

[skippedonce]

Oh the arrogance of the 100 year experiment with it nasty RAC-like nylon trousers and vile Mess Kit.




Get with the programme. The 100 year experiment ended on 1 Apr 2018, and we're still here.

[pr00ne]

c52,

Why on earth do you think it's called a saving? It SAVES the cost of running and maintaining the stations, it SAVES the cost of upgrading and refurbishing the stations, and it generates cash for the MoD when the stations are sold.

Duh!

[c52]

I agree that the running costs are saved, but not the selling price.

[Ken Scott]

The RAF Regiment doesn’t do anything the Army couldn’t.

As I recall the RAF Regiment was created because the army didn’t defend the airfields adequately in Crete so gifting them and the island to the Germans.

Your argument, as ever, is not exactly enhanced by silly name calling.

[NutLoose]

Don't forget 33 Sqn's groundcrew as well Ken

[KelvinD]

They can think.
Beg to differ. I was called out to take part in a fierce battle going on in Aden one night. Flares and tracer rounds all over the place, lots of flashes and bangs.
We were stood down at the last minute as it became apparent the RAF Regt were involved. They had been tasked with guarding some of the Army camps as the infantry were very much stretched at the time (remember Mad Mitch? It was around that time).
A car coming in from the desert had failed to stop at a check point and one of the occupants opened fire on the soldiers there. The Lancashire Regt jumped into a Land Rover and set off in hot pursuit, firing their GPMG as they went. As they passed the area adjacent to one of the Army camps, the RAF Regt guard were awoken by the noise and joined in. Firing on the Lancashire Regt boys! Naturally, the Lancs were having none of that and so shared their firing between the fleeing dizzies and the second source of incoming fire. They didn't yet know who was firing at them but they weren't best pleased so gave them some back. They eventually caught up with the fleeing Mercedes at a hospital at the rear of our camp where they found something like a couple dead in the car, one trying to get into the hospital and one already in the hospital. It was interesting to hear the reports on the radio and the Lancs boys asking for guidance re the one already inside and allegedly on his way to the operating theatre. The reply was to the effect of "go in and get him". So they did. The Mercedes was a sight with doors shot off and enough bodywork damage for it to be a total write off!
At the end of the evening, it was reckoned that the dizzies had fired something like a couple of dozen rounds and our side had fired thousands, including those exchanged between the Lancashire Regt and the RAF Regt. And nobody on our 2 sides was killed! There was a lot of shouting at the RAF Regt following that.

[pr00ne]

KelvinD,

So, things may have been different over FIFTY years ago!

[FantomZorbin]

The RAF Regiment doesn’t do anything the Army couldn’t. But would the army do it?

[Davef68]

From the BBC report:

Lincolnshire's Police and Crime Commissioner Marc Jones said losing the base "was as serious a blow as Lincoln losing the cathedral" would be.

Leeming would be a good shout for the RA, concentrate Hawk t1 on a single base, but might be a bit too far 'Ooop North' for some.

[pr00ne]

The whole reason for the RAF Regiment being formed in the first place was that the Army DIDN'T do it!

[Ken Scott]

Don't forget I believe 33 Sqn's groundcrew as well Ken

The remaining airmen of 30 & 33 Sqn were indeed heavily involved in the defence although not all were equipped with rifles & a large number were killed or captured as the German gliders landed during breakfast! Those that were able to take part in the defence fought bravely and Churchill’s later comments about ‘civilians in uniform’ were grossly unfair to them. I have spent some time in Crete at the annual commemorations including talking to Jack Baker, who was an LAC on 30 (& their last surviving veteran), he spent the whole day in a trench sniping at the Germans as they tried to cross the Tavronatis Bridge. His friend stayed behind to cover their withdrawal & was killed, Jack’s description of events whilst standing by his grave at Souda Bay CWGC were very moving.

The decision to withdraw from Hill 107 on the basis of poor intelligence by the NZ company commander gifted the airfield to the Germans who had been on the point of surrendering and allowed them to fly in reinforcements, the loss of Crete was then a given.

It seems to me a sensible provision for the RAF to protect its own airfields rather than rely on the army and gives comfort to the aircrew knowing that the ground forces doing the force protection take their role seriously. There were a few incidents in Iraq & Afghanistan at TLZs were the job wasn’t done properly by the army, in some cases leading to the loss of ac.

[gr4techie]

the RAF Regiment, do they do anything that the Army can't?

I thought the only point of the RAF Reg was to show us the same incredibly boring SERE film every year and then try to dab talcum powder on your face while holding your breath and not coughing.

[BEagle]

Notwithstanding the thread drift concerning the RAF Regiment and the Army, I cannot help thinking that savings made by 'maintaining' Scampton won't amount to very much, given that such little 'care and maintenance' has been ongoing.

[beamer]

Sad to see Linton is for the chop - one of the happiest years of my life despite the efforts of my primary QFI ( ex Nimrod ) who was a seriously unpleasant man ! Great memories of 36 Course.

Scampton will tug many heart strings despite the state it has been allowed to fall into. Surely something could be done with the Officers Mess to incorporate the museum and associated with the new Bomber Command memorial. I did a course there about thirty years ago and was surprised how little history was evident. As for the grave of Nigger, well there have been so many stories about it over the years, I doubt if anyone knows the truth.

I make no apologies for not being PC above !

[pr00ne]

Bearing in mind what all of the non 617 squadron groundcrews did to that grave it was never held in that much respect or esteem by the RAF.

[NutLoose]

Sad to see Linton is for the chop - one of the happiest years of my life despite the efforts of my primary QFI ( ex Nimrod ) who was a seriously unpleasant man ! Great memories of 36 Course.

Scampton will tug many heart strings despite the state it has been allowed to fall into. Surely something could be done with the Officers Mess to incorporate the museum and associated with the new Bomber Command memorial. I did a course there about thirty years ago and was surprised how little history was evident. As for the grave of Nigger, well there have been so many stories about it over the years, I doubt if anyone knows the truth.

I make no apologies for not being PC above !

https://www.purcelluk.com/projects/raf-scampton

https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/news/new-tourism-attraction-at-raf-scampton-discussed-by-county-councillors/118111.article


Hangars are listed BTW

[MPN11]

The loss of Linton will certainly simplify getting airspace for RAFAT practice 'oop there, based at Leeming..

[Wyler]

This is about the the future of over 600 personnel, military and civilian. Get a grip. Nobody cares about name calling and who did what course when in the 60s. Seriously, NOBODY cares.
​​​​​​​

[NutLoose]

Is there any advantage weather wise between Valley and Linton? I still think chopping airfields is a drastic measure, once gone you cannot bring them back, far better sticking someone else on them so in the future they can be available.

[Clockwork Mouse]

. But would the army do it?
The Army could do it but why would they? The Army's job is to manoeuvre aggressively on the battlefield, close with the enemy and kill him. The RAF Regt is a reactive guard force. A bloody good one but a guard force.

[Ken Scott]

Except that ‘someone else’ is usually the army whose first act always seems to be to render the runways unfit for aviation.

[NutLoose]

https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101391594-hangars-1-4-c-type-hangars-scampton

Hangars and associated buildings are listed, one would imaging a developer won't exactly be over the moon with that.

[MPN11]

The Army could do it but why would they? The Army's job is to manoeuvre aggressively on the battlefield, close with the enemy and kill him. The RAF Regt is a reactive guard force. A bloody good one but a guard force.
Wiki ... "and in depth defence of airfields by way of aggressive patrolling a large area of operations outside airfields in hostile environments." Not quite so 'reactive', it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Regiment

[Ken Scott]

Agree MPN11, RAF Regt’s active clearance of the airfield environs was always preferred to the US’s reactive approach which would hit with massive force the area where an aggressor had fired from but only after you had been shot at.

[Bob Viking]

This is not a straight out dig but just a genuine query.

Why are/were RAF AT not more willing to drop personnel straight off at their home base after a detachment rather than making hundreds of people drive the length of the country to arrive and depart via Brize (or wherever it used to be)?

It seems to me that the Army might have been more willing to leave runways unmolested if they thought it might be to their advantage to leave it serviceable.

A company/battalion/battlegroup that has spent several months deployed to somewhere sh1tty might be quite appreciative of a drop off at home. Especially if home happens to be in Scotland.

We always blame the Army for screwing up runways but could the RAF have helped itself a little more in this regard?

I realise people’s immediate reaction will be to tell me to STFU, but do I have a point? Or am I just going to get a chorus of ‘crew duty’?!

BV

[Clockwork Mouse]

Wiki ... "and in depth defence of airfields by way of aggressive patrolling a large area of operations outside airfields in hostile environments." Not quite so 'reactive', it seems.
Oh dear. Alright, I will concede that they are an aggressive guard force. Still not an appropriate task for the army. Please keep it.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Bob Viking. As a Pongo I would certainly credit you with having a point. A very sensible one. You must be an ex Jaguar pilot?

[Timelord]

This is not a straight out dig but just a genuine query.

Why are/were RAF AT not more willing to drop personnel straight off at their home base after a detachment rather than making hundreds of people drive the length of the country to arrive and depart via Brize (or wherever it used to be)?

It seems to me that the Army might have been more willing to leave runways unmolested if they thought it might be to their advantage to leave it serviceable.

A company/battalion/battlegroup that has spent several months deployed to somewhere sh1tty might be quite appreciative of a drop off at home. Especially if home happens to be in Scotland.

We always blame the Army for screwing up runways but could the RAF have helped itself a little more in this regard?

I realise people’s immediate reaction will be to tell me to STFU, but do I have a point? Or am I just going to get a chorus of ‘crew duty’?!

BV

Bob, You need a pretty serious crash cat for a transport aircraft full of pax, so getting the appropriate number of fire engines to your runway at an army base would be n issue. The other reason ( excuse) they always quoted was passenger and baggage handling equipment , ie steps, conveyor belts and things.. Oh yes and PCN/ LCN.

[Bob Viking]

I understand the reasons you say and I guess it might not work everywhere. But take Kinloss as an example. Once upon a time it could handle heavy aircraft. Why would that suddenly stop?

It’s easy to find reasons why not but I bet an Army Garrison CO could have found ways to borrow steps and fire engines if it meant helping his Soldiers out.

I know it’s a simplistic view but the military is meant to be a ‘can do’ organisation, not a ‘can’t do’ organisation.

As an example. A 54 Sqn detachment to Turkey in 2004/5 ended up with many personnel being flown directly into Coltishall in a VC10 with dysentery.

If it could be done then, why couldn’t it be done more often?

BV

[skippedonce]

This is about the the future of over 600 personnel, military and civilian. Get a grip. Nobody cares about name calling and who did what course when in the 60s. Seriously, NOBODY cares.
​​​​​​​

Any word on relocation for 1ACC, or in the wonderful new world of the Air Ops Branch will everyone go to Swanwick?

[skippedonce]

The loss of Linton will certainly simplify getting airspace for RAFAT practice 'oop there, based at Leeming..

I'm sure Leeming was mooted as the new home of the Reds some years ago, and killed off due to safety concerns for all those distracted HGV drivers on the A1(M) causing accidents that would then be blamed on the RAF.

[ShyTorque]

Bob, You need a pretty serious crash cat for a transport aircraft full of pax, so getting the appropriate number of fire engines to your runway at an army base would be n issue. The other reason ( excuse) they always quoted was passenger and baggage handling equipment , ie steps, conveyor belts and things.. Oh yes and PCN/ LCN.

I seem to recall a B747 landing at RAF Gutersloh in the early 1980s and the military passengers were tasked with unloading the baggage. They beat the usual unloading time into a cocked hat.

[Ken Scott]

BV, on tactical AT ac it used to be standard policy for us to collect/ drop off via a unit’s home base but this changed a number of years ago probably due to airfield fire cover etc as described above. For the larger AT which carry most pax it was probably always the case. I can remember flying to Brize many years ago to collect freight for Lossiemouth that had come in on a Tristar as that ac couldn’t land there.

[MPN11]

Any word on relocation for 1ACC, or in the wonderful new world of the Air Ops Branch will everyone go to Swanwick?
In theory, 1ACC could go anywhere with buildings and electricity. Their mobility concept shouldn’t require a massive fixed-base infrastructure.

[BEagle]

BV, not a bad question.

Sometimes the legal fire and rescue cover couldn't be achieved nearer to passengers' ultimate destination. Some aerodromes had limited taxiway width etc., also it wasn't so much the crew duty time which might be limiting but the aircraft's next allocated task.

Things improved a little during my (fortunately brief) exposure to the world of trucking and we certainly collected and returned passengers to their ultimate destination whenever possible. But we were often up against the blinkered stupidity of Ascot Ops, I regret to say. Airlines use their cleverest people for schedule planning, whereas the RAF did not.

It was different if returning FJ crews and support personnel to the UK on an AAR trail as we were then under the delegated control of an AARC. Most of whom would agree to approval to land at places such as Marham, Wittering, Leeming and Leuchars even if it meant burning more fuel. But that wasn't always possible, also the MT for passengers might be at the mercy of their own station. This one time (not at band camp!) when I brought some FJ folk back to the UK it hadn't been possible to arrange to fly them direct from ASI to Wattisham but they were hugely glad not to be going back deafened and starved in the bowels of an Albert. One of their number told me that their MT Ops wouldn't send a bus until they'd been told that the VC10 was about to land at Brize; I'd faced the same in my short time on 56 so was very sympathetic. An HF phonepatch to Wattisham off the sticky-out bit of Africa and a little white lie did mean though that the Wattisham bus arrived at the precise moment the passengers had cleared customs and the movers. Which probably saved them about 5 hours of frustration.

But you wouldn't believe the opposition we often faced from some jumped-up 'Unit Mobility Officers' when we'd offered to fly passengers home when we had the opportunity.

My favourite RTB with pax was flying a pairs VRIAB at Wittering with the first GR5 when we came back from Dubai via Akrotiri. We broke first, extended downwind whilst the Harrier landed, then dropped off the pax and were UK customs cleared by the SDO!

[Saintsman]

No room at Swanwick. It's overflowing with NATS personnel at the moment.

[Bob Viking]

Good answer.

Maybe just getting that message across clearly might have helped the RAF AT image somewhat.

BV

[skippedonce]

In theory, 1ACC could go anywhere with buildings and electricity. Their mobility concept shouldn’t require a massive fixed-base infrastructure.


But in practice, not since they became a 'hybrid' unit, by taking on the static role of the previous CRC Scampton in addition to their mobile capability.

[chopper2004]

BV, not a bad question.

Sometimes the legal fire and rescue cover couldn't be achieved nearer to passengers' ultimate destination. Some aerodromes had limited taxiway width etc., also it wasn't so much the crew duty time which might be limiting but the aircraft's next allocated task.

Things improved a little during my (fortunately brief) exposure to the world of trucking and we certainly collected and returned passengers to their ultimate destination whenever possible. But we were often up against the blinkered stupidity of Ascot Ops, I regret to say. Airlines use their cleverest people for schedule planning, whereas the RAF did not.

It was different if returning FJ crews and support personnel to the UK on an AAR trail as we were then under the delegated control of an AARC. Most of whom would agree to approval to land at places such as Marham, Wittering, Leeming and Leuchars even if it meant burning more fuel. But that wasn't always possible, also the MT for passengers might be at the mercy of their own station. This one time (not at band camp!) when I brought some FJ folk back to the UK it hadn't been possible to arrange to fly them direct from ASI to Wattisham but they were hugely glad not to be going back deafened and starved in the bowels of an Albert. One of their number told me that their MT Ops wouldn't send a bus until they'd been told that the VC10 was about to land at Brize; I'd faced the same in my short time on 56 so was very sympathetic. An HF phonepatch to Wattisham off the sticky-out bit of Africa and a little white lie did mean though that the Wattisham bus arrived at the precise moment the passengers had cleared customs and the movers. Which probably saved them about 5 hours of frustration.

But you wouldn't believe the opposition we often faced from some jumped-up 'Unit Mobility Officers' when we'd offered to fly passengers home when we had the opportunity.

My favourite RTB with pax was flying a pairs VRIAB at Wittering with the first GR5 when we came back from Dubai via Akrotiri. We broke first, extended downwind whilst the Harrier landed, then dropped off the pax and were UK customs cleared by the SDO!

Not unlike the US, whether its an army aviation unit, ground unit, USMC aviation or ground unit - the CRAF contracted out airlines do fly back to the exact air bases/ air stations / army airfields after deployment.

I attended Scampton airshow last sept and was saddened too by the state of some of the buildings.....

So Reds likely to relocate to Wittering or Leeming??

cheers

[Davef68]

A company/battalion/battlegroup that has spent several months deployed to somewhere sh1tty might be quite appreciative of a drop off at home. Especially if home happens to be in Scotland.


Seen trooping flights using Edinburgh Airport over the last 20 years, especialy in the VC10 days

[stewyb]

Down to the bare bones of front line stations now - Brize, Lossie, Waddington, Odiham, Coningsby, Valley, Benson, Marham!!

[Bob Viking]

Don’t forget Yeovilton, Culdrose, Leeming and Wittering. Although I understand the sentiment of your post.

BV

[NutLoose]

Here is an Idea, sell Hendon for housing and use the funds to transfer the RAF Museum to Scampton, I would imagine the enlarged historical site would be ideal and the funding generated from selling the prime site at Hendon would fund it all.

[anchorhold]

Scampton may be a valuable piece of real estate, but what if the new owner takes offence to having the grave of a dog called Nigger. I suppose he could be exhumed and reintered at York Minster, but I don't think the incumbent bishop would approve, in that case would it not the most appropriate final resting place for Nigger, as the most famous RAF dog, be be St. Clement Danes, it would be two fingers up to political correctness.

[NutLoose]

https://content.historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/raf-scampton-historic-characterisation/raf-scampton-historic-characterisation.pdf/

[BEagle]

BV, sadly most truckies were unwilling to make waves and suggest alternatives... Those of us who'd been buggered about in previous existences were more likely to try.

I've flown trooping flights to/from Lossiemouth, Kinloss, Turnhouse, Manchester in shiny VC10s and to Marham, Wittering, East Midlands, Leuchars in the VC10K.

Can do - if allowed!

Some pax are never satisfied though - we once gave some pompous pongo officer a lift to Germany. It was a double IRT sortie, so Brize to the Clutch took a couple of hours and 3 approaches, taking-off at 10:00 local. Rather than thanking anyone, said pongo huffed and puffed about the time it was taking....

Just for once could a thread about Scampton NOT become a conversation about that sodding dog...PLEASE!

[GeeRam]

I'm sure Leeming was mooted as the new home of the Reds some years ago, and killed off due to safety concerns for all those distracted HGV drivers on the A1(M) causing accidents that would then be blamed on the RAF.

Would apply to Wittering as well then.....

You'd have thought Chivenor would have been the ideal place to base the RA.......had they not given it away to the RM.....?

[rolling20]

I have it on good authority that the government is going to lease space at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. Buying slots will be expensive, but apparently it will be a saving. BA are going to service airframes and BA pilots will fly the aircraft on off duty hours. Ok I made it all up, but the way things are going, it won't be long. What a mess!

[Pontius Navigator]

Don’t forget Yeovilton, Culdrose, Leeming and Wittering. Although I understand the sentiment of your post.

BV

As you pull the pins from the map the distances between runways increases, fuel reserves increase, and flying hours reduce. Throw night flying in to the pot and it was almost inevitable we had to use civil airfields, and that was 20 years ago. Holding Manchester from Coningsby or Leeming from Lossie was a drag.

[NutLoose]

Plus when you start to resurface runways etc, your options to disperse become limitied.

[pr00ne]

Valley frontline?

Never

[pr00ne]

Nutloose,

If you were to try and rebuild/re-create the RAF Museum at Scampton I think you would very rapidly run out of money from the receipts from disposing of Hendon. You would have to start from scratch at Scampton as those 4 C Type hangars are 83 years old and would themselves only hold a tiny fraction of what is at Hendon.



AND, it would be in Lincolnshire...

[skippedonce]

Nutloose,

If you were to try and rebuild/re-create the RAF Museum at Scampton I think you would very rapidly run out of money from the receipts from disposing of Hendon. You would have to start from scratch at Scampton as those 4 C Type hangars are 83 years old and would themselves only hold a tiny fraction of what is at Hendon.



AND, it would be in Lincolnshire...

Yep, a little difficult to just jump on the Tube if you're an international visitor with a spare afternoon in London, and also considerably less easy to get to than Duxford.

[MPN11]

But in practice, not since they became a 'hybrid' unit, by taking on the static role of the previous CRC Scampton in addition to their mobile capability.Thanks ... I had forgotten CRC meanderings! However, as it all seems to be run on remote desktops anyway, the same thought applies!

[m0nkfish]

BV, sadly most truckies were unwilling to make waves and suggest alternatives... Those of us who'd been buggered about in previous existences were more likely to try.

I've flown trooping flights to/from Lossiemouth, Kinloss, Turnhouse, Manchester in shiny VC10s and to Marham, Wittering, East Midlands, Leuchars in the VC10K.

Can do - if allowed!

Some pax are never satisfied though - we once gave to some pompous pongo officer a lift to Germany. It was a double IRT sortie, so Brize to the Clutch took a couple of hours and 3 approaches, taking-off at 10:00 local. Rather than thanking anyone, said pongo huffed and puffed about the time it was taking....

Just for once could a thread about Scampton NOT become a conversation about that sodding dog...PLEASE!

When based at Lossie I had Tristar and laterly Voyager land to disembark tired and emotional service personnel who just want to be reunited with their families as quickly as possible. I've also been told we have to get on a bus and drive to Prestwick/Brize because its 'impossible' for a Tristar/Voyager to land at Lossie. Never really understood why it would be safe and acceptable one minute and then not the next.

Always very appreciative of the crews though, especially when a Tristar captain dropped us all off at Lossie and announced on landing that anyone that wanted onward transport to Brize should make themselves known and would be accommodated. After a long time away from home the effort to get people back quickly was, I think, appreciated by everyone.

[skippedonce]

Thanks ... I had forgotten CRC meanderings! However, as it all seems to be run on remote desktops anyway, the same thought applies!


Without going into the nauseous technical detail, if only it were that easy!

[MPN11]

Without going into the nauseous technical detail, if only it were that easy!
I fully accept I’m over-simplifying! But at least we don’t have to build a new R3 to house them! ;)

[skippedonce]

I fully accept I’m over-simplifying! But at least we don’t have to build a new R3 to house them! ;)

Too true. Mobility is life, and on so many levels an R3 is a death trap.

[Herod]

a VC10 with dysentery. (post 39)

Interesting

[heights good]

Thankfully this post is anonymous (ish) and I cannot be identified as I would deny I said this to any RAF Regt types :)

The RAFR may seem like a waste of time, money & resources, however they do provide 3 niche capabilities that the Army are just not in the same league.

JTACs - having worked with literally hundreds over the last 15 yrs or so from various nations and cap badges, nobody is as professional or competent as the RAFR. This includes SF JTACs and USAF TACPs. Nobody comes close!

CBRN - As with JTACs the world leaders in CBRN are the boys from Honington. The Army just dont get it and I believe dont even train their personnel outside of Phase 1 training with any regularity.

Air aware - The Army do not understand Air or aviation in any meaningful capacity or even how important it is to Land. A case in point. Whilst in Kenya on exercise we ended up very narrowly missing a DH3 UAV as the artillery ‘experts’ decided that as they had gun lines (inactive for a week) and they operated them that they owned the airspace over the entire area.

This was despite us flying down the air corridor separating 2 ranges. The exact reply from the battery commander “we own the air, you arent allowed in to the range when guns are present”. When asked where in the range documents this was written down, he asked what range documents? :ugh:

The Army have absolutely no concept of aviation or why it matters to them on the ground.... This attitude has stood true in my entire military career.

The RAFR are (and I hate to admit this) an essential capability for Air as they just ‘get it’ when it comes to aviation.

[Willard Whyte]

Given that the majority of The Red Arrows' displays seem to be doon sooth perhaps a similarly located runway would be an idea. Although I admit enough suitable airspace for practice might be hard to come by.

[207592]

The last time Scampton was earmaked for closure the Red Arrows decamped for Cranwell (soon to be the RAF's only base) where their need for airspace saw them return to Scampton. I suppose that has been forgotten?

Rather than close Scampton, why not Syerston, after all the Air Cadets no longer glide!

[H Peacock]

Hey, never mind the Reds moving (perhaps getting rid of them is the only way to get Lingy back to a proper job) but Scampton is a rather popular and soon to become busy RLG; where is all that circuit work going to be done? If you ask Coningsby or Waddo for a PD you get a straight 'No'. How incredibly short sighted!!

[heights good]

I understand the reasons you say and I guess it might not work everywhere. But take Kinloss as an example. Once upon a time it could handle heavy aircraft. Why would that suddenly stop?

It’s easy to find reasons why not but I bet an Army Garrison CO could have found ways to borrow steps and fire engines if it meant helping his Soldiers out.

I know it’s a simplistic view but the military is meant to be a ‘can do’ organisation, not a ‘can’t do’ organisation.

As an example. A 54 Sqn detachment to Turkey in 2004/5 ended up with many personnel being flown directly into Coltishall in a VC10 with dysentery.

If it could be done then, why couldn’t it be done more often?

BV



This was done on occasion as several times whilst deploying/returning we landed at Teeside first.... Very frustrating for my mate who lived approx 10 minutes from Teeside and had driven to Brize the night before :}

[MPN11]

At Waddington we had an ex-ASI VC10 deliver the guys behind the Tower for hugs and kisses. Ex CORPORATE, of course, when it was the flavour of the month.

[ORAC]

and on so many levels an R3 is a death trap. Two to be precise - if you ignored the cottage.

[Buzzy20A]

"They think " ... obviously coming from a ex rock ape with delusions .... get a life ...if you were that good why were you not protecting the many LZ'S in NI ?, i Can't remember any RAF REG protecting their helicopters in the various SF bases around the province when i was there, XMG springs to mind, that's because you were to busy thinking it was a little bit dodgy down that way.

Sitting on your **** at Aldergrove ( i didn't see you at BBK either ) thinking you were a cut above didn't get the job done.

As for RAF.

Weather Bad .... were not coming .... AAC... we'll get you.

Heavy weapons shoot on a Wessex ( No CAS, a couple of bullet holes) coming into XMG .... we didn't see the RAF for a week .

AAC, PAX pick up the next day ... no problems.

RAF thinking to much ...Army get the job done.

[ivor toolbox]

This might ruffle a few feathers but there's a large base in west Wales the Army currently use, well away from congested airspace, close by beaches etc, and was once home to TWU. .. .

Ttfn

[airsound]

Does it bother anyone that The Times article https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...uvre-rpcmlxzdq (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...uvre-rpcmlxzdq)
and indeed all the BBC reporting, refer only to 'bases' or 'airbases' without ever mentioning the word 'station'. i have had a go at the BBC Defence Correspondent today, reminding him that the RAF in the UK lives on 'stations', not on bases. I also mentioned 'station commander' and people, aircraft and squadrons being 'stationed' wherever.

His replies have been deeply condescending - and eventually he said "To most Station is where you catch a train"

Does anybody else care?

airsound

[MPN11]

Agreed, airsound ... why a decent Newspaper can't even get the terminology right is extremely annoying,

"Marham Barracks"?

[Lima Juliet]

Apparently the A15 no longer needs to be straightened and so now we can afford to sell it - couldn’t make it up!

[NutLoose]

I find it rather tragic that even before the Station is floggged off, for 1000 a month you too can be the " Station Commander" in home at least.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-67642868.html

[Army Mover]

I seem to recall a B747 landing at RAF Gutersloh in the early 1980s and the military passengers were tasked with unloading the baggage. They beat the usual unloading time into a cocked hat.

I was there; to be fair, the speed of the offload was driven by how quickly they could get the bins out of the hold of the aircraft, that was done by the RAF lads of the Air Movements Squadron; the SAMO was keen to see for TTW planning just how quickly untrained people could do the job as he was being pressured to give up guys to 18 Sqn.

[trim it out]

Thankfully this post is anonymous (ish) and I cannot be identified as I would deny I said this to any RAF Regt types :)

The RAFR may seem like a waste of time, money & resources, however they do provide 3 niche capabilities that the Army are just not in the same league.

JTACs - having worked with literally hundreds over the last 15 yrs or so from various nations and cap badges, nobody is as professional or competent as the RAFR. This includes SF JTACs and USAF TACPs. Nobody comes close!

CBRN - As with JTACs the world leaders in CBRN are the boys from Honington. The Army just dont get it and I believe dont even train their personnel outside of Phase 1 training with any regularity.

Air aware - The Army do not understand Air or aviation in any meaningful capacity or even how important it is to Land. A case in point. Whilst in Kenya on exercise we ended up very narrowly missing a DH3 UAV as the artillery ‘experts’ decided that as they had gun lines (inactive for a week) and they operated them that they owned the airspace over the entire area.

This was despite us flying down the air corridor separating 2 ranges. The exact reply from the battery commander “we own the air, you arent allowed in to the range when guns are present”. When asked where in the range documents this was written down, he asked what range documents? :ugh:

The Army have absolutely no concept of aviation or why it matters to them on the ground.... This attitude has stood true in my entire military career.

The RAFR are (and I hate to admit this) an essential capability for Air as they just ‘get it’ when it comes to aviation.

Totally agree. I've worked with Army artillery, JTAC and aviation elements and the RAF Regt do the whole ALI piece better.

[Slow Biker]

Always grateful for a very happy tour at L-o-O, it was there we discovered The North. Then posted to Scampton............

[heights good]

Thank you for your considered response and for so eloquently arguing FOR my point.... I spent 5.5 yrs in NI with the SH force so I speak with some authority.

"if you were that good why were you not protecting the many LZ'S in NI?" A few points on this one.

SH working on the battle field, is by the very nature of how the Army operates, not using "LZ'S" that are in fixed locations. This is based on infantry tactics 101; do not become predictable, make yourself a small target, do not stay in the same place for too long etc. etc. By all means the RAF 'could' collect you from fixed "LZ'S" but after a couple of IEDs, IDF, sniper shots and several dozen soldiers being killed, the logic of this would probably be questioned.

The next point. The RAF Regt role is NOT to secure "LZ'S" but to secure airheads and APOE/D based on TESSERAL criteria, if this means nothing to you then you have just scuttled your argument as to why the Army should replace the RAF and just "get the job done."

RAF SH crews are more than able to counter a SMARMS threat without the RAF Regt becoming involved. This is out of necessity as doctrinally SH support the Army on the battlefield, working close to or beyond the Front Line. MANPADS, IDF and TBMs on the other hand are somewhat more bothersome and require specialised knowledge and expertise. With the best will in the world, an Army unit on a 6 month roulemont just do not have the time, expertise or will to focus on these subjects. The RAFR on the other hand are the SMEs on each of these subjects and know the subjects inside-out. Even the Int Corps are largely clueless on the air threat.

Regarding XMG, there was not enough space for the NIBAT1 Bn never mind extra bed spaces being taken by RAFR. Incidentally, as there were no aircraft based within the SF bases, there would be very little for RAFR personnel to do. They did however visit each of the SF bases every year or so to make sure they were still suitable to use. I flew several of them in my time there. Infantry patrol outside their own patrol base, RAFR patrol outside a main airfield. It's all contained in doctrine and decided by the numerous 4* in charge of the individual Services.

"Sitting on your **** at Aldergrove ( i didn't see you at BBK either ) thinking you were a cut above didn't get the job done." 3 Sqn used to patrol around Aldergrove on a regular basis.... Just to be clear, this was their role as agreed by HQNI and Air. Again, this was all written down and formalised in doctrine by the heads of each Service. Nothing to do with thinking they were a "cut above." Just different roles. Remember, everyone chose a trade, some chose the RAF, other's the Army; all life choices...

"Weather Bad .... were not coming .... AAC... we'll get you." The MOD website does not appear to have a copy of the Board of Inquiry regarding a AAC helicopter that crashed due to flying with weather out of limits and trying to "get the job done". Six people died in that crash, all 100% preventable. This example is so extreme that it is now used as a 'how not to do it' case study on the Tri-service Flight Authorisers Course.

This is not the first time the AAC have pushed the limits and suffered as a result. I would recommend that you go through some of the BOI archives and read them. Truly harrowing reading. As an aside, I am not an infanteer, therefore I will not preach about fire and manoeuvre or section attack drills as it would be ill informed and make me look slightly silly.

Heavy weapons shoot on a Wessex ( No CAS, a couple of bullet holes) coming into XMG .... we didn't see the RAF for a week . Whilst I am not sure of the exact reasons for the Wessex disappearing for a week, I am sure this is not a decision that the Sqn Cdr made on his own. HQNI and the RUC/PSNI would have all had a vote in what happened after the event.

As an aside, the incident you are talking about, I am about 99% sure it was an attempted shoot down with an SA-7 MANPAD... Slightly more worrying than a few bullet holes, as you describe. The threat was so great that all aircraft in NI were required to fly with countermeasures hence forth. This again demonstrates why the Army just don't get Air, the threat or how this relates to Land and the big picture. The Army are very good at the tactical picture, not so much at the Operational or Strategic level. Normally the bigger picture is what will win the war, not every individual battle in isolation. Sometimes you have to choose your battles; those that you can win.

"RAF thinking to much ...Army get the job done." I guess this depends on your definition of getting the job done. I can think of 3 examples of the Army getting the job done in my time in NI.

A Lynx crew deciding to solve a problem for the NIBAT1 Bn of removing a Tricolour from R13 after is was dismantled, whilst in the hover..... The aircraft managed to limp back the BBK after it's rotor strike on the flag pole.

A Lynx crew deciding that they didn't need to check the tasking for the day, which would have alerted them to the fact of the USL sitting by the HLS at Forkhill. Fast forward a few hours and a rather sporty approach resulting in a tail rotor strike on the blatantly obvious 8'x4'x9' USL. All because they wanted to get their tasking completed faster.

Another Lynx crash outside XMG after trying to be punchy to get the job done. 6 injured and another airframe written off.

A great example of why the Army just don't get aviation is the frequent Watchkeeper crashes. This is what happens when you employ poorly trained, overworked and unselected personnel to carry out aviation duties, accidents happen. If the Army can't invest time, money, training, doctrine and resources into a £1Bn aircraft programme then frankly protecting airfields will be WAY down the list of priorities....

Frustration at a tactical pause is understandable, but rarely is rushing in the answer in the long-term. To quote Field Marshal Rommel, "“Time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted.”

Just to be clear - I will never admit to any Rockape that I think they are a great capability and worth keeping. I will deny this post if I am found out :}

[Shaft109]

Surely the end of L-o-O also means Topcliffe airfield (recently resurfaced) will be left to wither away too.

[Pure Pursuit]

Thankfully this post is anonymous (ish) and I cannot be identified as I would deny I said this to any RAF Regt types :)

The RAFR may seem like a waste of time, money & resources, however they do provide 3 niche capabilities that the Army are just not in the same league.

JTACs - having worked with literally hundreds over the last 15 yrs or so from various nations and cap badges, nobody is as professional or competent as the RAFR. This includes SF JTACs and USAF TACPs. Nobody comes close!

CBRN - As with JTACs the world leaders in CBRN are the boys from Honington. The Army just dont get it and I believe dont even train their personnel outside of Phase 1 training with any regularity.

Air aware - The Army do not understand Air or aviation in any meaningful capacity or even how important it is to Land. A case in point. Whilst in Kenya on exercise we ended up very narrowly missing a DH3 UAV as the artillery ‘experts’ decided that as they had gun lines (inactive for a week) and they operated them that they owned the airspace over the entire area.

This was despite us flying down the air corridor separating 2 ranges. The exact reply from the battery commander “we own the air, you arent allowed in to the range when guns are present”. When asked where in the range documents this was written down, he asked what range documents? :ugh:

The Army have absolutely no concept of aviation or why it matters to them on the ground.... This attitude has stood true in my entire military career.

The RAFR are (and I hate to admit this) an essential capability for Air as they just ‘get it’ when it comes to aviation.

The Regt have just surrendered their CBRN capability to the Army. A JTAC career stream is the way forward for them however, I suspect that they will be a much smaller force in the near future. That and guarding F35.....

[Pontius Navigator]

It’s easy to find reasons why not but I bet an Army Garrison CO could have found ways to borrow steps and fire engines if it meant helping his Soldiers out.
BV, as I am sure you are well aware, there is rather more to an active runway than 9,000 ft of weed free tarnac. An active or activated runway needs lots of extras from the technical to the mundane. A FOD plod is essential if there has been no regular sweeping to remove the inevitable rocks, dead rabbits, check for buddies etc.

It occurs to me that there may be a shortage of manpower when a trooper is inbound with the troops onboard.

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/611427-scampton-linton-ouse-closure-post10204720.html#post10204720)It’s easy to find reasons why not but I bet an Army Garrison CO could have found ways to borrow steps and fire engines if it meant helping his Soldiers out.




If I remember rightly, when EGNX had a diverted DC10 ( I think it was), they had no steps that could reach the door, so the SLF had to sit in the aircraft while a set was driven over from BHX before they could deplane, and that took several hours. It's not as simple as you infer, you cannot pick up a set from your local tool hire company.

[charliegolf]

RAF thinking to (sic) much ...

I'm sure it's a matter of Army pride that this slur will never be levelled at them!

you cannot pick up a set from your local tool hire company.

Nutty: what about the rubber slidy things? Quick as...!:ok:

CG

[OKOC]

Given that the majority of The Red Arrows' displays seem to be doon sooth perhaps a similarly located runway would be an idea. Although I admit enough suitable airspace for practice might be hard to come by.
Kemble would be a good shout for the Reds I reckon.

[Bob Viking]

With regards to my suggestion I’m well aware the ship has almost certainly sailed. I also fully understand the things you’re saying.

However, back when the Army first started to take over and systematically ruin airfields, if somebody had suggested that keeping a set of steps (second hand from Heathrow or wherever), bowsers, assorted kit etc might be a good idea and explain the merits of an active airfield maybe the senior Pongos might have seen the benefits. Sure it might have only been useful for Tac AT, small transports or the occasionally diverted FJ but think of the difference it might have made to interoperability. And if RAF Valley can muster enough military people for a FOD plod I’m sure an army base could have drummed up a few.

I’m sure it was discussed back in the day and I realise it is a moot point but I still think it is unfair to just blame the Army for destroying airfields when perhaps it is the fault of the RAF for not highlighting their uses.

You all know I’m RAF so I’m not ‘crab-bashing’ but sometimes we are so protective of our own organisation we’re too quick to blame others.

Anyway, I’ve probably dragged this thread far too off piste already for which I apologise.

BV

[Nige321]

From Matt in the Telegraph... :}


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/319x272/37695287_518808395244589_5211526257702862848_n_9ed6ca9c40628 521decc1ae2417e6f5c9032fe27.jpg

[ShyTorque]

Kemble would be a good shout for the Reds I reckon.

Well it was, almost half a century ago, but it would rather disrupt "the goings on" at what is now Cotswold Airport.....

[Champagne Anyone?]

RAF STATION SCAMPTON...

I've never understood why they don't leave the Reds in situate, move the BBMF from Conningsby, RIAT from Fairford and relocate the the Waddo Airshow and have an 'operational museum' type affair. Retain 313 for practice so no need to find an alternate R313 area..

Plenty of hangar space for a museum similar to the IWM North in Greater Manchester, maybe concentrating more on Bomber Command?

Throughout the year, they could hold open days, concerts with Spit or Hurri (or Reds?) displays to Music... Open days for car clubs, fly ins for civilian flying clubs (without the ridiculous landing fees and handling charges) on certain days with photo opportunities with the aircraft....

A large amount of money would then be raised to fund the museum and other public buildings with the 'Events' held being a paid affair...

Lots of room for other opportunities too...

Motorway network only a few miles away for ease of access all year round, and little disruption to locals, who have a warren of side roads to prevent too much disruption when RIAT and other large events take place...

Lintons FJ training could be relocated to Conningsby where the BBMF have left a gap.

Obviously, some rebuilding and renovation would need to take place but that would be the case where ever they decided to relocate the Squadrons.

More importantly, we would be preserving an RAF Station of major historical interest and importance, rather than just flushing it down the drain....

[Pontius Navigator]

CA, you obviously missed the earlier point about the age and state of the hangars, not to mention less space than Hendon.

The road access is distinctly below average with a busy dual carriageway to the South and a very ordinary A road to the North.

[pr00ne]

Champagne anyone?

Probably because the RAF, or rather the MoD is not a museum running business, it’s hardly core activity is it?
If front line assets are facing the chop then it seems a travesty that the RAF still finds funds to run 5 Spitfires, 2 Hurricanes, a Lancaster and a Dakota when,with the exception of the Lancaster, there are numerous privately operated Spitfires and Hurricanes out there.

The MoD has a real issue in demanding more cash when the general public see the amount of bling and ceremonial on almost constant display in central London.

[skippedonce]

No room at Swanwick. It's overflowing with NATS personnel at the moment.

To answer my own question from earlier, apparently 1ACC is moving to <drumroll> Boulmer, which the unit left in 2005-6 on their way south to Scamptom via Kirton-in-Lindsey <boom, tsing>. Well done the estate planners!

[Champagne Anyone?]

[QUOTE=Pontius Navigator;10206074]CA, you obviously missed the earlier point about the age and state of the hangars, not to mention less space than Hendon.

The road access is distinctly below average with a busy dual carriageway to the South and a very ordinary A road to the North.[/QUOTE



Point 1. That's why I said costs would be incurred through renovation and relocation, but that will be needed where ever they decide to relocate to... The Hangars would need to be looked at, but are they not listed buildings? Do you not want to see them maintained? If extra buildings are needed, then build them... You cannot make an omlette without cracking eggs!

Point 2. I travel the A46 regularly, at least three times a week and would not say it was particularly busy... The A15 heading North, is as straight as a dye, apart from the Scampton bump all the way to the M180 and only a short drive time to the M18, the A1(M) and the M62, the M1....

Access is probably as good as if not better than Fairford.... The disruption would only be a concern for only a couple of weekends a year when major events were held... i.e RIAT.

And the road structure is perfectly capable of handling the extra traffic if handled correctly.


Just needs a little vision and less negative waves....

[Champagne Anyone?]

Champagne anyone?

Probably because the RAF, or rather the MoD is not a museum running business, it’s hardly core activity is it?
If front line assets are facing the chop then it seems a travesty that the RAF still finds funds to run 5 Spitfires, 2 Hurricanes, a Lancaster and a Dakota when,with the exception of the Lancaster, there are numerous privately operated Spitfires and Hurricanes out there.



You forgot the Chipmunks!!!

The RAF don't have to run the Museum... You are missing the point entirely! This would be a privately funded affair... With monies raised split between the museum and renting the 'live attractions access' The RAF would continue at Scampton they same as they are now, with the addition of the BBMF being on site.

The RIAT style events would be run in the same way as they are now...


And your'e right,,, there's a big museum in London, but there are loads of museums in London; thats over 150 miles away! and not everyone wants to go to London, nor can afford to go to London. You have seen the extortionate prices charged down south at most attractions haven't you??

Why not locate something in an area badly lacking in historical attractions and make it more accessible for more than just southerners????

[Daf Hucker]

" Just needs a little vision and less negative waves...." and money that isn't available! The Infra at Waddington is in a sorry state, never mind spending money on a Museum in a station that is largely derelict. Even if a museum Scampton was eventually to become self-funding, it would still need an initial injection of funds that, in the current climate" are just not available.

[scr1]

If front line assets are facing the chop then it seems a travesty that the RAF still finds funds to run 5 Spitfires, 2 Hurricanes, a Lancaster and a Dakota when,with the exception of the Lancaster, there are numerous privately operated Spitfires and Hurricanes out there


So if we were to axe the BBMF how much would be saved as a percentage of the defence budget??

Beter scrap HMS Victory at the same time

[Top Bunk Tester]

Just waiting for someone to come up with the obvious solution.

1. Move ALL flying training to RAF Valley. This will have a knock on positive effect on morale as every operational posting after RAF Valley will seem like Butlins.

2. Move the RAFAT into RAF Brize Norton where there is plenty of space and they could compare posing notes with the Falcons. This will be the first stage of Op CONCENTRATE, where in time, the whole of the RAF will relocate to RAF Brize Norton, this will save lots of the defence budget, although MoD may have to rent or buy some of the fields surrounding the base to provide car parking space for personell.

[Pontius Navigator]

CA, what you say is true to a point but I disagree that the A46 has the capacity. I was not thinking of the air show but regular museum traffic. The A15 might be straight but is otherwise pitiful. I agree the motorway access is good but that is why the A15 is inadequate.

The hangars are an issue. If they are listed and I can't think why as they are not unique. A!ing the ridge you have Kirton Lindsey, Hemswell, Scampton, Waddington, Digby and Cranwell - take your pick. Or Binbrook, Manby, Cottesmore. Then I believe there is no requirement for the MOD to either maintain or retain a listed building.

Many might not like Hendon and think it too far away, but I would bet they have a much more populous catchment area and a greater footfall.

[Jerry Atrick]

It's a good job all this negative attitude wasn't around in 1943... "It won't work, what a ridiculous plan. Money would be better spent in carpet bombing."

[Jimlad1]

So if we were to axe the BBMF how much would be saved as a percentage of the defence budget??

Beter scrap HMS Victory at the same time

Would that be the HMS VICTORY that was handed over to a private charity some years ago and which is only in notional commission with the RN?

[nilocp]

I have read all the comments with interest. We recently visited the heritage museum, never having been to Scampton before. What I found incredible was the security to get in, and yes I know it is an operational airfield. But the reds were away and nothing else moved. It is a tired old place with a massive concrete runway.
I learn that to walk around the perimeter fence is 15 miles. Can that be right? So that is one hell of a piece of real estate. But what could anyone do with it?
Return to farming? How much would it cost to clean it up? There will be all sorts of contanimants on site.
Once you fence off the listed hangers, built a museum and then an industrial estate what on earth do you do with the rest?

Just my 2p's worth.

Colin

[NutLoose]

I would like to know the actual deal when it was originally built, at several ex military airfields, the land had to be offered back to the original owners descendants as it was often compulsory purchased, I seem to remember something when Hatfield was closed by Wasteaspace because of the financial gains to be had from the hardcore under the runway, it was then a clause was discovered that if the runway ever went they had at the time to restore it to farmland, it wasn't so some solution must have been found.
i just think airfields should not be brownfield sites and if they are developers taking them on should be made to develop the equivalent area in inner cities to get the go ahead.

[Valiantone]

So Champage anyone

Your plan for relocating stuff to Scampton is interesting apart from the fact its falling apart... Go look at the taxiways for a start.

As for putting anything from Linton into Coningsby (correct spelling by the way, from someone that's grown up around the place) Where you going to put it ??

3,11, (soon to be 12) 29 41 and TMF and add the jets in semi storage, means the place is full. Besides Tucanos will be gone soon and we all know where the Texans will be

[skippedonce]

We recently visited the heritage museum, never having been to Scampton before. What I found incredible was the security to get in, and yes I know it is an operational airfield. But the reds were away and nothing else moved.

There's much more going on at Scampton than just the aerobatics of 9 red jets. 1ACC's CRC at Scampton is the operational element, delivering air surveillance and control at part of UK and NATO Air Policing as part of a 24/7 commitment.

[dctyke]

You forgot the Chipmunks!!!

The RAF don't have to run the Museum... You are missing the point entirely! This would be a privately funded affair... With monies raised split between the museum and renting the 'live attractions access' The RAF would continue at Scampton they same as they are now, with the addition of the BBMF being on site.

The RIAT style events would be run in the same way as they are now...


And your'e right,,, there's a big museum in London, but there are loads of museums in London; thats over 150 miles away! and not everyone wants to go to London, nor can afford to go to London. You have seen the extortionate prices charged down south at most attractions haven't you??

Why not locate something in an area badly lacking in historical attractions and make it more accessible for more than just southerners????

excellent air museums at Elvington and Newark!

northerner

[Audax]

Linton is ideally situated for the Basic Fast Jet Training role, oodles of free airspace and easy access to the low level system in any direction, RLG nearby, most of which is not applicable to Valley without transit times. With only 10 Tucano replacements ordered, there would be plenty of scope to move the Reds to Linton, their training requirements could easily be tailored round the BFJTs movements.

[NutLoose]

Far to sensible.... it will never catch on

[EESDL]

PM request for any PPruner who has relevant contacts, RAF, local council or otherwise re purchase of Scampton. Will be an honour to provide state-of-the-art heritage centre etc etc. Don’t need comments about lousy road/rail links, plan will never work etc (you don’t know the plan!). Just after contact from someone whom might be useful in helping to keep flying and Heritage at Scampton.
Not listed on e-PIMS yet but would like to be involved early so relevant people know that there is a credible option where the MOD get their vital funds and the locals keep the airfield’s legacy alive.
.......and before you ask, we are not relying on Pprune to ensure success, but it is another media that has sometimes proved useful ;-)

Back to the drifted thread - 2000-hours of flying in NI and only ever witnessed an Army helicopter (screaming sperm) running from a contact 12/8/92 and a downed Lynx due to flying constant angle approach in SA. 🤐

[David Thompson]

It's the Linton On Ouse Families Day today and quite possibly the last one ? Very dark skies up here now and the rumble of thunder in the distance , the scene is set !

[Pontius Navigator]

It will go to a number of the major developers, it will be divided up into different blocks with school, shops, etc and twee names like Lancaster Crescent, Dog Lane, Gibson Way, and job done.

[reds & greens]

CA
The A46 Bypass round Lincoln is an abysmal road; I too use it very frequently.
you will be aware that it is not yet complete as a bypass, much of it (close to the A15) is single carriageway and, (during the periods 7am-9am and 3pm-5:30pm) is nothing short of a standstill at times. The A15 is generally straight, but bad in summer for farm vehicles, lorries and general slower moving traffic. It also has many dips and inclines. It is known as a major death road as people overtake and take risks here. It was so bad that my wife and I moved away from Lincoln in terms of our work so we wouldn't be using the road. Winter further amplified the nightmare.
Enough of the RAC Lesson
Scampton RIP, - great tour on CFS

[Pontius Navigator]

R&G, thanks for the confirmation :( we have to use it at 3.30 and again at 5. The 46 that is.

[BEagle]

It's not just the section of the A46 around Lincoln which is dire! When the Leicester - Newark section was finally dualled in 2011, that left a ridiculous single carriageway section around Newark which is a real bottleneck, plus a really dangerous roundabout junction. It seems that this may well be dualled too, but work won't start until 2020-ish...

Lincoln's western bypass is a travesty - particularly where dual carriageway sections become single carriageway. The roundabout junctions can't really cope with large vehicles either. It should have been built as a dual carriageway for the entire length to the A15 junction.

They're now building an eastern bypass from the A15 to Wragby Road - but again that's all single carriageway, so will undoubtedly become yet another bottleneck.

The 'missing link' between the A46 and A15 might become the 'North Hykeham relief road', but again there's doubt about whether it'll be a dual carriageway.

I've been driving from the south west to Lincolnshire since the late '60s. Parts have improved as anyone who ever remembers the magical mystery tour of the Leicester ring road and the subsequent crawl up the Fosse Way will probably agree. But until there's a proper dual carriageway along the entire length from Leicester to the A158 Wragby Road, it'll always be inadequate.

As for the A15 north to Hull - well, it's a lot better using the A15 and a bit of M180 to the Humber bridge than the old crawl through Brigg to the New Holland ferry and the 40 year old paddle steamer to Hull ever was!

[reds & greens]

Two very interesting points you raise there BEagle.
1. Centre of Lincoln is terrible, the Traffic Light sequencing is managed by a creche at best, the highlight of any day being a vehicle breakdown on Silver Street, when 'Op GRIDLOCK' comes into force.
2. Also, you mention the 'Missing Link', - if only Darwin had transited from Shrewsbury to Lincoln, he would have saved years in attempting to seek a solution traveling round the globe...
If you're planning a trip from Nottingham to Market Rasen, put Inverness in the Sat-Nav, It'll be as quick.

[The Oberon]

One of the biggest problems with Lincoln area traffic came about because of the total confusion when the Humber Bridge was built. The plan was to dual from the bridge all the way down to the A1 via the A15. Most of the land was bought but then the government stepped in and said no, as they were intending to build an East coast motorway linking the bridge to the top of the M11. Two years later this plan was cancelled which left the bridge as a bridge to nowhere with the increased traffic having to use single carriageways to the A1 and South. I believe the East coast motorway plan is back on the cards again.

[GeeRam]

I learn that to walk around the perimeter fence is 15 miles. Can that be right?

A quick measure and it looks to be just under 6 miles around the perimeter.....?

[Pontius Navigator]

Reds and greens, Sat nav was the clue. Just done a similar journey. There were several C roads paralleling the main routes with relatively little traffic. That is one advantage of Lincolnshire, if you know the hidden routes you can often average over 30mph 😆

[MPN11]

Reds and greens, Sat nav was the clue. Just done a similar journey. There were several C roads paralleling the main routes with relatively little traffic. That is one advantage of Lincolnshire, if you know the hidden routes you can often average over 30mph 😆
"Arr, but moi tractor got here first so you'se have to wait." ;)

[nilocp]

Someone must have been telling porkies!!

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Surely the end of L-o-O also means Topcliffe airfield (recently resurfaced) will be left to wither away too.

Don't be daft mate, they have thought of that already. Topcliffe will stay open as Valley's Texan RLG and they will bus controllers in daily (as they do now from L-o-O). You forget that bean-counters are involved in this decision so something as ridiculous as that cannot be ruled out. :}

As for reds home (however short their continued existence is) requires clear airspace, good runways, suitable hangarage and modern-ish ATC facilities. Isn't Linton's tower the newest one we have left? Any-hoo, May I join the others and suggest Linton as that location as home for the reds. Keeping it open long enough for the powers that be to realise that putting all pilot training into the one basket is not going to work.

Also if Linton closes then they will need to update SSR for Leeming because, if memory serves me correctly, the SSR head is at L-o-O.

[Wensleydale]

From a few years ago...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-26342290

[Pontius Navigator]

Had lunch today with a retired electrical engineer who worked on the Bomber bases. He recalled an issue 30 years ago when the closure of Scampton was muted, not the A15 question but the underground pipeline installation.

I know bomber bases had an early hydrant fuel system installed when the airfields were reconstructed in the 50s but these were never, to my knowledge, used. I was told they had gone rusty before being brought in to service.

He thought only 7 bases were so equipped. I know Waddington was and guess the other main bases were too. He thought that the remediation cost had led to its retention then.

[The Oberon]

Had lunch today with a retired electrical engineer who worked on the Bomber bases. He recalled an issue 30 years ago when the closure of Scampton was muted, not the A15 question but the underground pipeline installation.

I know bomber bases had an early hydrant fuel system installed when the airfields were reconstructed in the 50s but these were never, to my knowledge, used. I was told they had gone rusty before being brought in to service.

He thought only 7 bases were so equipped. I know Waddington was and guess the other main bases were too. He thought that the remediation cost had led to its retention then.

I wondered about this, there is a rumour about up to 600 new builds on the airfield and along with all the other locals, Scampton Village, we wonder whether the "clean up" costs would make Scampton suitable for new housing. The old fuel pipeline, the old SSA and lots of other accidental spillages over the years. The other rumour is solar panels on the hard standings,with agricultural on the green bits.
In addition to the Reds relocating, I haven't seen anything about Hawker Hunter Aviation. They have a fair number of airframes on site, wonder what their plans are?

[Trumpet_trousers]

anybody who has driven/cycled/walked past the main gate at Scampton over the last few years should not be surprised by this - you only have to look at the sorry state of the barrack block fronting the A15 to the North of the gate to see that it has effectively been left to rot - I dare say if the perimeter fence and guardroom were not close by, the windows would have been smashed too. Hardly a suitable advertisement for the home of the Reds....
Many a happy evening spent ten pin league bowling, I wonder if the bowl survives?

[Exrigger]

anybody who has driven/cycled/walked past the main gate at Scampton over the last few years should not be surprised by this - you only have to look at the sorry state of the barrack block fronting the A15 to the North of the gate to see that it has effectively been left to rot - I dare say if the perimeter fence and guardroom were not close by, the windows would have been smashed too. Hardly a suitable advertisement for the home of the Reds....
Many a happy evening spent ten pin league bowling, I wonder if the bowl survives?

Every time I go past there, I think of my two and a bit years in the block closest to the A15 and Bowl/Swimming pool end, top floor, end room overlooking A15, I also spent many a time in both the bowl/pool, good times long gone.

[ZH875]

Didn't the bowling alley get relocated to RAF Cranwell?

[Pontius Navigator]

I did tests of the McMurdo light on that pool. Showed it worked immediately on immersion if you took the plugs out before entering the water and could be dried out after.

resulted in all the lamps having plugs removed as SOP

[ShyTorque]

I thought Linton-on-ouse must be about ready to close when I was there a few weeks ago - the village pub (College Arms) was closed and a fair number of houses in the village have been up for sale for some time. :uhoh:

[kaitakbowler]

I understand that when ISS won the CRL contract they quickly closed most of the bowls as too difficult. Only Brize has AFAIK managed to stave off a full ISS takeover. (happy to hear of any more that survived)

Pm

[Sky Sports]

The Reds move to Wittering is looking more like a done deal according to a friend based there.

[Pontius Navigator]

Isn't the A1 dangerous enough as it is?

[Wrathmonk]

The Reds move to Wittering is looking more like a done deal according to a friend based there.

I hope the MOD have got the lawyers ready (assuming the Dennis family are still resident) given the years of relative peace and quiet since the demise of the Harrier ....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/apr/17/jeevanvasagar

[Wander00]

Shame about the bowls. Most were provided by the Nuffield Trust or Command Central Funds. On the Non Public desk at Brampton Command Accounts in the late 80s I was involved with staffing the bids for funding of a few of them

[pr00ne]

Harsh on Jet2 or Ryanair...

[chopper2004]

https://eda.europa.eu/info-hub/press-centre/latest-news/2017/10/24/50th-eda-helicopter-tactics-course-(htc)-completed

I know of a couple Bundesheer AB-212 crews and their aircraft (when doing the practical side of the course in Sweden etc) attend the synthetic / simulator side of it at Linton-On-Ouse. Thus after closure where will the course be held? Here is another thought - will it even be held in UK?

cheers

[Sleeve Wing]

Anyone know of a date yet for Linton’s possible demise ? I was on course there in 1962 and, for nostalgia’s sake, would like to try and fly in (yep, still flying) before the runways become hardcore for yet another motorway.

[Chris Ackroyd]

The whole reason for the RAF Regiment being formed in the first place was that the Army DIDN'T do it!
I’m sorry to respond on this and not the sad state of the DIO, but the Army did the RAF Regiments beloved Op TESSERAL role in Iraq. After the RAF Regt could maintain a cleared airstrip for the Hercs in Al Amarah, the Army used an armoured infantry Battalion with Warrior to much better effect.

do I need to mention the joke that was the ‘battle of bastion’

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Latest "gen" is Waddo has been chosen as RAFAT's new home.

https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/05/red-arrows-to-move-from-scampton-to-raf-waddington/?fbclid=IwAR1yJNw2srG__XssMqBcOKK0sfirm280PEiUKkS6gHgQRYZydN F4Ld2WnIY

[Willard Whyte]

Seen also.

Deep joy.

[RAFEngO74to09]

On BBC now: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-52709531

[LincsFM]

It's a shame that Waddington and the RAF is losing an important operational capability next year whilst Lincolnshire is celebrating that the Reds are staying in the county!

[GeeRam]

It's a shame that Waddington and the RAF is losing an important operational capability next year whilst Lincolnshire is celebrating that the Reds are staying in the county!

Indeed........

[BEagle]

No doubt the number of rubberneckers and spotters clogging the A15 will have been taken into account?

[Wensleydale]

No doubt the number of rubberneckers and spotters clogging the A15 will have been taken into account?

There is a purpose built car park at the Waddington Aircraft Viewing Enclosure that can hold a considerable number of vehicles...it may get busy on the actual arrival day but should cope with the routine stuff. There is also an excellent cafe attached which does very nice breakfasts!! As long as the visitors don't stand under the approach, or use ladders up against the fence then everyone should be happy.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/818x648/wave_53a2d02a01dbc52d5b7a8a28a815cc6cda2a1f0e.jpg

[pr00ne]

So what happens to the RAF Waddington flying programme for all of the operational flying units based at Waddington when the Reds are doing their thing over the airfield three times a day with consequential closure of local airspace?

[Sandy Parts]

pr00ne - if you read the MoD press release - airspace above SCAMPTON will remain the location for display practices.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/red-arrows-to-stay-in-lincolnshire-following-raf-scampton-closure

[MPN11]

And where will they park the aircraft? Will RAFAT occupy the southerly dispersals (D & E) or the remnants of B & C at the north end? Neither site has hangarage ... unless they build a new one. A is full of operational stuff already, and F seems to be committed already. I see some difficult decisions and quite a bit of expense generating suitable accommodation for bot jets and personnel.

[pr00ne]

Thanks Sandy Parts, I have yet to read that so now will.

BUT, wan't the whole idea of disposong of Scampton and other MoD sites to release them to Homes England for development for housing? If the Reds are going to practice over Scampton won't this merely be a repeat of the situation when they were based at Cranwell and practiced over Scampton with Air traffikers in the tower and fire and medical cover?

[pr00ne]

MPN11,

I suppose that they will occupy the hangar, offices and dispersal freed up when 5 Squadron disbands in 2021.

[MPN11]

MPN11,

I suppose that they will occupy the hangar, offices and dispersal freed up when 5 Squadron disbands in 2021.I assume that's part of the main cluster of hangars? Wherever, there's no obvious room anywhere for the great 9-jet line-up prior to taxi ... the only spot is A, which seems to be rather taken up with E-3s! Perhaps that nice HMG/MoD will build them a new parking area!!

[pr00ne]

MPN11,

Yep, one of the 5 C Type. I suppose that the 5 Sqn dispersal will be available and maybe they can afford a little more concrete pouring to extend it.

It did make me chuckle in the MoD press release that Sandy Parts kindly pointed me to, where it says that now the decision has been made they will "move into the assessment and planning stage" which seems so similar to the large scale closure plans announced in 2018 where, if you read the detail, they have decided to close sites and are going to decide where the displaced units will relocate to "after studies...."

A contractor could make a not small fortune if it could persuade the MoD to actually DO planning!

[MPN11]

pr00ne ... dat's da trooth, bro! :D

[ExAscoteer2]

Thhat will work well. NOT!

Just like it didn't work when the Reds went to Cranwell in 1996.

[deltahotel]

Difference is that Cranwell was a crazy busy training base with CFS, EFTS, METS, Doms all trying to do their busy training thing. Waddo not so much.

[MPN11]

No idea what the sortie rate is at XW these days. But when we had 4 x Vulcan sqns it wasn’t that busy. A fair %ge of traffic was Practice Diversions etc. I can’t imagine the ‘clever jets’ are launching 6-8 per hour, or doing a lot of ‘circuit bashing’.

[Wensleydale]

The Reds operated from Waddington before being asked to move to Cranwell back in the day. The problem will not be space (a new complex is being built for Wedgetail and drone squadrons at the far side of the airfield) but if they start booking the runway for the 15-30 minute slots for take-off and landing that they did 20 odd years ago. The ISTAR aircraft both running live ops and major exercises suddenly couldn't depart at suitable times - especially when the Reds booking slipped for 30 minutes because of weather and a very expensive to run Boeing 707 was left running its engines in dispersal for the best part of an hour. Also problems coming back from ops when ISTAR arrival coincided with a Reds booking. There were a couple of diversions of crews returning from Ops deployments and not a lot of good will between operational aircrew who were treated as second class citizens because of an air display team. Priorities needed to be seriously looked at!! Hopefully it will work, but a certain team need to show a bit more flexibility than last time having been used to having their own way at their own airfield for a long time!!

...and before we get the "ISTAR can change its take-off times to suit" argument, just think how many of the ISTAR customers will also have to change their flying programmes in order to receive the service. Cancel the War in the Adriatic - the AWACS is delayed 45 minutes because the Reds have the runway booked! (Yes - it did happen).

[ExAscoteer2]

Difference is that Cranwell was a crazy busy training base with CFS, EFTS, METS, Doms all trying to do their busy training thing. Waddo not so much.

No EFTS at Cranditz at the time.

No aircraft movements 15 mins before to 15 mins after a Reds movement completely screwed 45(R), 55(R) not so much owing to the sortie length, but screwed over anyway. Either way, co-locating RAFAT with other types, training or operational, is a recipe for disaster.

[downsizer]

Be a moot point when they are binned in the forthcoming cuts....:}

[reds & greens]

An absolute Class 1, Grade A PITA when at Scampton in terms of CSF activities, during the late 80s and early 90s.

[Skeleton]

If the Reds are going to practice overhead Scampton the plan seems to work but being the Reds take nothing for granted. Are they just going to join the queue to taxy 3 times a day and accept the E3 in front of them, or will the rules allow them special privileges like the E3 has to wait or get out of the way? The Reds having there own airfield and airspace happened for a reason, interesting times ahead.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I understand they intend to use the airspace over Scampton for practice. This raises a question or two from me.

- Is the MOD intending to keep the runway at Scampton serviceable on the off-chance a hawk needs it in a hurry mid practice?
I know there is no safety-net runway beneath them when they do their public displays but their frequency is somewhat lower than the 3-sorties a day practicing.

- I know Waddo and Scampton are only around 10nm apart but there does happen to be a rather large city betwix the two with a population of 3/4 million people. Did I see that one of the considerations for choosing Waddo was the safety of the general public? Does Waddo option make sense on safety grounds?

[GeeRam]

I understand they intend to use the airspace over Scampton for practice. This raises a question or two from me.

- Is the MOD intending to keep the runway at Scampton serviceable on the off-chance a hawk needs it in a hurry mid practice?


I've not seen any mention of what is or isn't happening at Scampton in terms of future runway ops, especially given that HHA operate their Hunters on the mil register on contract work from Scampton, and so far have not seen rumours of them moving their operation to another location.........?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I've not seen any mention of what is or isn't happening at Scampton in terms of future runway ops, especially given that HHA operate their Hunters on the mil register on contract work from Scampton, and so far have not seen rumours of them moving their operation to another location.........?
Thanks GeeRam, from what see there is that intention to close Scampton in 2022. Interesting to see how it all turns out.

I still think Leeming as a base and Linton airspace for practice would have been the better (safer) option.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Thanks GeeRam, from what see there is that intention to close Scampton in 2022. Interesting to see how it all turns out.

I still think Leeming as a base and Linton airspace for practice would have been the better (safer) option.

d'accord! But what would we Air Traffickers know about airspace management? (although I'm sure the CAA would have made a complete meal out of moving the Reds' avoidance area. Which is why, I suspect, this sensible, obvious option wasn't selected)

[typerated]

How about training over Donna instead?

It's a bit of a transit but otherwise a nice protected unused blob of airspace for the taking..

[GeeRam]

d'accord! But what would we Air Traffickers know about airspace management? (although I'm sure the CAA would have made a complete meal out of moving the Reds' avoidance area. Which is why, I suspect, this sensible, obvious option wasn't selected)

I'm guessing that's exactly what happened, as there was indeed an application by MOD in to do exactly that some time ago, so I'm guessing the answer was indeed a no?

Which then begs the question what happens after 2022?

And where will HHA go, if all air movements at Scampton cease after that, assuming of course they have a MOD contract beyond that time?

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The CAA wouldn't just say 'no' per se; that's not in their gift. But they would probably insist on the MoD going through the whole new ACP system at the cost of £100ks to the taxpayer, while they haven't got the personnel to staff the issue anyway. Given the no of ACPs stuck in "the (very blocked) pipeline", one could expect a decision in about 2029 or so.....

[DuckDodgers]

I'm guessing that's exactly what happened, as there was indeed an application by MOD in to do exactly that some time ago, so I'm guessing the answer was indeed a no?

Which then begs the question what happens after 2022?

And where will HHA go, if all air movements at Scampton cease after that, assuming of course they have a MOD contract beyond that time?

As far as I'm aware HHA do not, and have not had contracts directly with the MOD since at least March 2016, most likely only working to Prime contractors which MOD doesn't need to be made aware of. There's also the question of what they pay to utilise Scampton as according to the department "no information has been found to determine what arrangements might be in place regarding the rental of infrastructure and utilities at RAF Scampton". Begs the question as to whether they have been living there on grace and favour terms.

[typerated]

And a practice over Donna : sign of things to come?

JET FORMATION PRACTICE. UP TO 9 ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH-ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 6NM 532830N 0000915E (DONNA NOOK, LINCOLNSHIRE). ACFT
MAY NOT BE ABLE TO COMPLY WITH RAC. 2020-06-0177/AS1

[GeeRam]

As far as I'm aware HHA do not, and have not had contracts directly with the MOD since at least March 2016, most likely only working to Prime contractors which MOD doesn't need to be made aware of. There's also the question of what they pay to utilise Scampton as according to the department "no information has been found to determine what arrangements might be in place regarding the rental of infrastructure and utilities at RAF Scampton". Begs the question as to whether they have been living there on grace and favour terms.

Hmmmnnn........interesting.

[chopper2004]

Think that answers my question about the relocation of the existing course held at Linton. I see the school established at Portugal (saw their presentation at Military Helicopter International)

https://www.eda.europa.eu/info-hub/press-centre/latest-news/2019/09/06/development-of-multinational-helicopter-training-centre-moves-ahead

cheers

[NutLoose]

Manston is reopening as a freight hub, one goes another reopens. :)

[taxydual]

Linton, apparently, has 're-opened' to support 100 Sqn Hawks operations. Leeming has a runway that needs some work. As an aside, with a Station that has closed, what happens to the keys to the buildings/facilities etc? Just curious.

[Sandy Parts]

DIO ‘own’ everything so they take over keys etc possibly also sub-contacting care and maintenance if awaiting disposal of site. Every closedown is a ‘project’ and has to be funded and managed like any other DIO business.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Here's an interesting snippet picked up off FaceAche...

A mixture of poor weather forecasted for RAF Waddington and the ongoing need to maintain operations by other fleets at the station means there is no longer sufficient time to conduct a planned trial of the Red Arrows operating from the base.
The activity is now postponed to 2021.

So, what we have is a firm decision to move RAFAT to Waddo
Then we get a "trial" of said move to see if it works,
followed by a cancellation of said trial due in part to what is going on at Waddington with other operations.

Wasn't this sort of flustercluck predicted on here a few years ago?

[ExAscoteer2]

Well having the Reds at Cranwell from 1986 worked well.

NOT!

:rolleyes:

[Green Flash]

Is Barkston Heath usable by the Reds?

[ExAscoteer2]

Barkston is currently EFTS for the Pongoes and Fish-heads, so no.

[Finningley Boy]

I was surprised but then again no, to here about Waddington being chosen to house the Red Arrows.

FB

[Dominator2]

A mixture of poor weather forecasted for RAF Waddington and the ongoing need to maintain operations by other fleets at the station means there is no longer sufficient time to conduct a planned trial of the Red Arrows operating from the base.
The activity is now postponed to 2021.
One may suggest that the Trial is complete.

Recommendation: Waddington is unfit for RAFAT Operations due to poor weather factor and incompatibility with Front Line Operations.

Further Recommendation: RAFAT to continue operations from RAF Scampton until the Out of Service of the Hawk T1. Then further decision to be made!

[Trumpet trousers]

Here's a radical thought: Why not keep Scampton open, and co-locate the BBMF there too? It could become the RAFs display team 'centre of excellence,' with the advantage of being based on an historic airfield (not saying that Coningsby isn't, btw,) The costs could be offset by expanding the Scampton Memorial Collection (?) to encompass the set up currently at Coningsby and encouraging people to visit THE one and only RAF Display Team station. Damn it, they could even house the BBMF in the original 617 hangar! Spotters/enthusiasts/historians et al could have the best of both worlds, and I would suggest that Scampton is better placed, geographically and transport-wise, for the majority of people to visit.

[Dominator2]

Trumpet, Why would you think that the Air Board would do something so sensible.

It would of course mean that the BBMF Fighter Pilots would have to travel to Scampton. Oh dear!!

It would also enable HHA to continue operations both commercial and display. They even have a few interesting aircraft from the Cold War that the public may be interested in.

[beefix]

I live fairly close to Waddington (2 miles).It does not seem that busy to me, a Sentry got airbourne yesterday (a rare treat) plus the usual R1s . Hard to see how the Reds could not fit in!

[dctyke]

Here's a radical thought: Why not keep Scampton open, and co-locate the BBMF there too? It could become the RAFs display team 'centre of excellence,' with the advantage of being based on an historic airfield (not saying that Coningsby isn't, btw,) The costs could be offset by expanding the Scampton Memorial Collection (?) to encompass the set up currently at Coningsby and encouraging people to visit THE one and only RAF Display Team station. Damn it, they could even house the BBMF in the original 617 hangar! Spotters/enthusiasts/historians et al could have the best of both worlds, and I would suggest that Scampton is better placed, geographically and transport-wise, for the majority of people to visit.


or just move to Leeming for a fraction of the cost.....

[GeeRam]

Trumpet, Why would you think that the Air Board would do something so sensible.

It would of course mean that the BBMF Fighter Pilots would have to travel to Scampton. Oh dear!!

It would also enable HHA to continue operations both commercial and display. They even have a few interesting aircraft from the Cold War that the public may be interested in.

And with the IWM doing its best to piss off the civvie warbird operators at DX......(who are also contracted to do work for BBMF fleet) providing an alternative location to IWM (and display venue) could also be possible option as well....

All far too sensible though.

UK doesn't do sensible or logical.

[ExAscoteer2]

I live fairly close to Waddington (2 miles).It does not seem that busy to me, a Sentry got airbourne yesterday (a rare treat) plus the usual R1s . Hard to see how the Reds could not fit in!

Because they will demand no aircraft movements 15 mins before to 15 mins after both a Reds take off and Reds landing. Oh and they will fly 2 sorties a day.

I reiterate, we tried this lunacy at Cranwell in 1996 - 2000. It didn't work then, it won't work now.

[Bob Viking]

I know what you’re saying about how the Reds will be very disruptive and I sympathise with any collocated operators.

I think you do the team a disservice though by saying they demand a sanitised airfield. It is the nature of their flying task that demands it.

I know everyone likes to believe that they are all a bunch of jumped up prima donnas. Whilst that may once have been true (I don’t know, I wasn’t there) it cannot be said to be the case nowadays.

For them to do a 9 ship take off, display and recovery it is safety that demands a sanitised airfield, not ego.

As for the Waddington debate I guess there isn’t one. The plan is to move them to there and no amount of gnashing of teeth on here will change that.

We all know it may be beset with problems and the decision may yet get reversed or they may end up moving again in the near future but it won’t be because of anything we say!

BV

[LincsFM]

Of course when the Reds do move up the road, life at Waddington will be quieter. The Sentinel will be gone and if the rumours are true about the Wedgetail then maybe even less movements!

[ASRAAMTOO]

Because they will demand no aircraft movements 15 mins before to 15 mins after both a Reds take off and Reds landing. Oh and they will fly 2 sorties a day.

I reiterate, we tried this lunacy at Cranwell in 1996 - 2000. It didn't work then, it won't work now.
Are those restrictions truly what the RAFAT asks for. I completed the CFS course at Scampton when the Reds were there and I don't recall the restrictions being that bad.

[Wensleydale]

Are those restrictions truly what the RAFAT asks for. I completed the CFS course at Scampton when the Reds were there and I don't recall the restrictions being that bad.

Yes...they used them at Waddington when they boltholed there back in the 90s. They also used to demand a rolling runway closure when they were waiting for weather to improve, so even if you were able to plan a later ISTAR launch, you often discovered that it had changed when you crewed in and tried to taxi for a sortie (usually leading to all of the other assets that you were working with also having to delay - if you were able to ask them in time of course). Remember that ISTAR aircraft usually have to work with other units and it is not just Waddington aircraft and ground sites that get hacked off by the airfield closures! Changing ISTAR mission times at even a day's notice was not very simple! It would have helped had the display team fitted in with the Waddington ISTAR schedule, but that is not what happened, and the tail wagged the dog on many occasions.

[Bob Viking]

It would appear some posters are basing their knowledge on events from 30 years ago.

Does anyone here know if RAFAT have indicated that the requirement highlighted is likely to still be extant?

Is it possible that some people let a bee buzz around their bonnet for years and can never actually accept that things change or that in fact their judgment may have been clouded by a potentially inaccurate preconception?

BV

[downsizer]

It would appear some posters are basing their knowledge on events from 30 years ago.

Does anyone here know if RAFAT have indicated that the requirement highlighted is likely to still be extant?

Is it possible that some people let a bee buzz around their bonnet for years and can never actually accept that things change or that in fact their judgment may have been clouded by a potentially inaccurate preconception?

BV

Dude, it amazes me you have the gall to still post around here with a measured tone and some common sense. Why haven't you been banned yet?

[Mogwi]

Wonderful memories of Linton in '67:

Fire extinguisher fights in the accommodation blocks
Illicit rifle range in the basement
Brake fade in the Ford Popular requiring the use of airbrakes (rearward opening doors) to slow down
Night flying with gosseneck flarepath
Smell of cordite on start-up (second best smell in the world!)
Bouncing another Chippy over Pilmoor Junction only to find it was the Staish doing a spin/aeros check with the CFI - OOPS!!
Winning the aeros trophy without a fly-off a few days later
Green Dragon (?) at Marton cum Grafton

Final landing in a Chiippy - "OK Mogwi, show me a short landing". Approached at 45 kts, hanging on the prop and chopped the power as I crossed the threshold - then realised that I was about 4' too high! Obvious remedial action was to shout "Oh sh1t!" as the aircraft dropped rapidly onto the piano keys with a bone-crunching thump before kangarooing back into the air. My application of brake during this brief period of ballistic flight resulted in such retardation on the subsequent touchdown that the tail came well and truly off the deck before crunching back down again.

I was able to taxy directly off onto the peri-track without back-tracking and the first comment from the CFI came as we were approaching dispersal. He merely said "Well Mogwi, that was certainly the shortest landing I have ever seen in the Chipmunk"

Heady days!

Mog

[ExAscoteer2]

I know what you’re saying about how the Reds will be very disruptive and I sympathise with any collocated operators.

I think you do the team a disservice though by saying they demand a sanitised airfield. It is the nature of their flying task that demands it.

So you agree there would be disruption. How am I doing the Team a disservice? I'm merely stating what will be required for RAFAT Ops. At Cranwell it was 2 hrs lost from the FLYPRO - didn't affect us too much on 55(R) (aside from SCT) owing to the nature of our sortie lengths, but it certainly screwed 45(R) and the CFS Bulldogs and Fireflies. That is exactly why the Reds moved back to Scampton in 2000. The experiment didn't work!

For them to do a 9 ship take off, display and recovery it is safety that demands a sanitised airfield, not ego.

Who said anything about ego?

no amount of gnashing of teeth on here will change that.

Who's 'gnashing teeth'? I was merely pointing out why it won't work - no amount of sticking heads in the sand, sticking fingers in ears and singing 'la, la, la' with change the fact that it didn't work before, so it won't work again.

[frodo_monkey]

no amount of sticking heads in the sand, sticking fingers in ears and singing 'la, la, la' with change the fact that it didn't work before, so it won't work again.

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

[Bob Viking]

Because they will demand no aircraft movements 15 mins before to 15 mins after both a Reds take off and Reds landing. Oh and they will fly 2 sorties a day.

Did I misread the tenor of your post? To me that sounded like you suggested that the team were stomping their feet and making unnecessary demands. It sounded a little like a bitter ex trucky having a dig at the zoomies. If that was not your intention then I apologise.

BV

[Wensleydale]

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

Waddington's flypro is governed by tasking of ISTAR assets which are given operating times usually days before they have to be on task (for example, the Sentry is tasked by NATO AEW&C Force Command well in advance). Achieving these times means a set take-off time with the added risk of discovering that the Reds have put in a late airfield blocking time and you are 30 minutes late airborne resulting in a loss of valuable (and expensive) training time with other assets including fighter control serials and Naval surface units. Planning an excessively early take-off is also a waste of valuable (and very expensive) flying hours, to say nothing of added crew rest difficulties with a very early morning start. If I may also add that years ago during Reds bolt-hole, when the Sentry was flying live ops to the Balkans from Waddington in order to police the NFZ, a slip in Reds take-off time resulted in a very late on-task time over the UN No-fly zone!! The Reds need to deconflict from the ISTAR tasking, and not the other way round which happened back then.

[frodo_monkey]

Only an issue until Sentry gets binned... :E

[ExAscoteer2]

BV

Indeed you misinterpreted my words.

Apology accepted.

BTW I wasn't just a 'Truckie'.

At the time I had several friends on the Team: Andy Offer, Smiffy, Gary Waterfall, Cubes, so it wasn't about jealousy, bitterness, or the Team being 'Prima Donnas'. It was about the disruption to the FLYPRO.

Indeed the disruption was so bad that OC RAFAT was routinely donating back seat rides to those affected (and yes I had one :ok:).

[Bob Viking]

Remind us what year that was again?

BV

[ExAscoteer2]

Only if you assume the Cranwell flypro of the time is the same as Waddo’s. Even Cranwell is a bit of a ghost town now with Dominies having gone, only 5 Phenom and a smaller EFT setup. Waddo has even less, and what it does have is much more predictable, flies for longer and doesn’t circuit-bash.

I would refer you to the earlier post by an ISTAR operator. :rolleyes:

[frodo_monkey]

I would refer you to the earlier post by an ISTAR operator. :rolleyes:

Believe me I’m no Reds apologist - clearly the two airfield users would have to work collaboratively - I just think you’re over-emphasising a problem that may well not exist.

[ExAscoteer2]

Frodo, I am merely illustrating the debacle that happened at Cranwell between 1996 - 2000.

You, obviously, weren't there at the time so you have no experience of the disruption.

[frodo_monkey]

Frodo, I am merely illustrating the debacle that happened at Cranwell between 1996 - 2000.

You, obviously, weren't there at the time so you have no experience of the disruption.

Correct, but on the other hand that was 20-24 years ago and we’re a much smaller Air Force nowadays. Just my two-penneth, it’ll be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Finningley Boy]

If they're going to use Scampton to practice over, as they did 1996-2000, what is the actual long term plan for Scampton?

FB

[typerated]

If they're going to use Scampton to practice over, as they did 1996-2000, what is the actual long term plan for Scampton?

FB

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!

[Finningley Boy]

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!
The way Mr Wallace is making clear the enthusiasm for AI, Cybre, Space and "virtually" nowt else. I can see a serious suggestion from the innovators to propose a virtual red arrowsUnhappy A sign of things to comeGrrr

FB

[SirToppamHat]

I think it is to be housing - so will only be available for limited time period.
Donna Nook is an option - with a long transit.
But the RAFAT might not survive the next review? Lots of talk (again) of no Sacred Cows!

Housing? Same old story ... large brown field site = ideal for housing right? But no-one wants to live there. transport links are non-existent, even if there were jobs to go to (there aren't). It's also on top of a hill and pretty exposed. Worst of all, it's going to need a heck of a lot of remediation. Special weapons core storage probably not a massive issue, but the fuel used by Blue Steel and the aircraft themselves over many years (before we woke up to the need for environmental care in all such things) is likely, IMHO, to wipe any profitability out of the place.

Could the Govt afford to remediate? The alternative would seem to be that the MOD/Govt walks away and locks the gates shut, leaving the site to rot as they have elsewhere.

As for Virtual Red Arrows? What a silly idea; it will never work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOlwCPW5iqA

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLNY_uE9Uzg

STH

[ShyTorque]

Maybe this....:

https://youtu.be/VAwVG61vXxc

[typerated]

They just need a new mount:
https://www.pngkit.com/png/detail/119-1197491_ef-typhoon-red1-800-red-arrows-typhoon.png

Realistically a 3 aircraft team would more than do a job.
If I was a teenager I'd much prefer 3 Typhoons and lots of afterburner to 9 hawks.
A lot cheaper to run I'd imagine.
Could use painted spares aircraft for state flypasts to bump the team up to a 5 ship once or twice a year.

[Finningley Boy]

They just need a new mount:
https://www.pngkit.com/png/detail/119-1197491_ef-typhoon-red1-800-red-arrows-typhoon.png

Realistically a 3 aircraft team would more than do a job.
If I was a teenager I'd much prefer 3 Typhoons and lots of afterburner to 9 hawks.
A lot cheaper to run I'd imagine.
Could use painted spares aircraft for state flypasts to bump the team up to a 5 ship once or twice a year.
Perhaps a 4-ship and a solo, sometimes with or separate. That would certainly do it. It all depends of course on the very uncertain future we currently face of course, the RAF, indeed, HM Forces, have very little depth now, what I mean is elasticity, surplus, there isn't any. But remember, I think it was Stalin, rightly said, Quantity has a quality all of its own. Something like that anyway.

FB