CPL training not on track

[chemical engineer]

Hello Ppruners,
I will give a little bit of background before asking your advice.
I finished my PPL back in 2013 and was flying regularly at the time. Then I couldn’t fly for one and half years because of life events and also I was doing ATPL ground exams. Then I joined a flying school last year. A fairly junior instructor flew with me in C152 for little less than 4 hours and checked me out. I hired on my PPL and continued to fly once a month happily. Then joined night rating course last winter with another more senior instructor. Finished it in 5 hours 20 minutes. Waited for good weather and finished CPL qualifying cross country solo in C152. Soon after registered for CPL flight training with a very senior instructor. My second lesson in PA28 warrior-3 didn't go very well with a lot of criticism (first was in a sim because of weather and it was alright). Things improved very slowly as training progressed and moved to PA28 Arrow. General handling in Arrow didn't go very well. When we got back to the ground, instructor told me I should not be an airline pilot and rethink about continuing my training. He said he will not let me hire aircraft from the school any more and if I want to continue, it's best to fly with a PPL instructor first to improve skills as it will be cheaper. All embarrassing stuff. More importantly very demotivating. I work mon-friday in a fairly stressful office job and go for training on weekends so need all the motivation there can be. I cancelled lessons over the coming weekend until I get some clarity of thought. My question is, have any of you of been in similar situation and what do you think is best way forward. Reading this forum for years, I never came across this situation.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Was this all under one flight school (night rating to CPL training)? Was this very senior instructor clear on where you needed to improve? Have you thought about maybe getting a second opinion on your flying skills?

I'm no expert and have yet to start my own training so would be really interested in what others have to say on this.

[chemical engineer]

Nurse2Pilot - yes it was all done in same flying school. Other instructors had checked me out and I was flying alright and achieved night rating too. How have my skills deteriorated that its now below PPL standard
Negan - That's probably part of problem. Being afraid of making mistakes, makes you commit more errors. Each lesson is stressful like a test. I was enjoying flying before starting this training as we all do. Now don't want to spoil my weekend going there.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Sounds like they don't deserve your hard-earned cash. If the school itself is alright, maybe fly with another instructor to confirm your skill level? Or with another instructor from another school? I'm sure we all need to improve in one way or another, but none of this "give up your dreams and rethink your life" BS. Good luck!

[parkfell]

Nurse2Pilot - yes it was all done in same flying school. Other instructors had checked me out and I was flying alright and achieved night rating too. How have my skills deteriorated that its now below PPL standard
Negan - That's probably part of problem. Being afraid of making mistakes, makes you commit more errors. Each lesson is stressful like a test. I was enjoying flying before starting this training as we all do. Now don't want to spoil my weekend going there.

It can be a quantum leap going from PPL flying to the standard required for the CPL/IR.
The fundamental key to success is accurate TRIMMING. If this was poorly taught during your PPL phase, then this area must be addresses: that, together with good attitude selections, are vital for a successful CPL outcome.

Not knowing exactly what was said in the debrief, it is impossible to be definitive as to how valid the comments were. Possibly the CPL instructor was having a bad day anyway. It does happen.
Anyway, draw a line in the sand:
1. Fly with another CPL instructor ( not necessarily at the same ATO) You might consider speaking to the CFI for guidance as to how to rebuild confidence.
2. Flying on a full time basis whilst completing professional courses is a distinct advantage. You need to completely concentrate on the flying and the briefings. Weekend flying is not the answer. You need to fully immerse yourself in the training.
3. You make no mention of specific instrument flying?
4. Customers often get setbacks. You need a honest opinion as to the likelihood of success. There is nothing worse than continuing, spending the money, only not to achieve. The IR training is even more demanding, but needs the basic bedrock to be in place. ACCURATE ATTITUDE & TRIMMING. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
5. For those who struggle through the CPL/IR and just achieve by the skin of their teeth, the MCC phase can be just an overwhelming experience. A steady or better performance on the modular course is a prerequisite to become an airline pilot.

Some might regard what I have said as less than touchy touchy feely feely. For those who have gone through the MODULAR route may well recognise what I have said. They are well placed to add their advice for those going through the system.

[cavok_flyer]

Have to say that CPL training was a breeze after IR training, although it was tough getting used to looking OUT of the window again! Anyways, IFR taught me how to fly exactly (attitude, altitude, hdg, etc.) as well as procedures. Have you done your IFR training? A CPL w/o IR is pretty useless IMHO...

Anyways, the CPL instructor is a KNOB and shows EXACTLY how INCOMPETENT he/she is. Change instructor/ATO and get on with it!!

[LandingGear60]

Slightly off-topic but out of curiosity, what steps are in place for modular students aiming to become commercial pilots to ensure they have the required skills and abilities of a pilot? For example, Integrated courses require aptitude test passes which measures those skills to determine success. Either way, those can be re-sat anyway, so you're instructors comments seem to be very harsh. Getting a second opinion with another instructor and going for it again with a positive motivation sounds like a good option

[uncle dickie]

There are various aptitude testing scheme available to aspiring aviators. Guild of Air Pilots to name but one. A good golf handicap is an excellent guide to ability.

I would suggest that your local club is perfectly capable of knowing if someone going through PPL training has what it takes to progress. That would be the best place to ask.
An obvious indicator would be completing successfully within minimum syllabus hours.
Taking 1.5 times as long might indicate a poor learning curve.
Any modular courses do require full time attendance unless you are particularly gifted.

[avtomaton]

I see three possible reasons:
1. The instructor tests your reaction to stress situation (hm, very peculiar test though)
2. The instructor just does not know how to correct your problems. It happens, in that case you just need another instructor.
3. The instructor is pretty old and he is aware of one more airman taking one more aviation job, which can lead to earlier retirement =)

Anyway, just keep going. Listen to all useful comments regardless of a person personality and attitude. Take the best stuff from even crappy critique. If that particular instructor cannot teach you anything, find another person. If the school is not suitable for you, find another one. It is your career and your life.

[excrab]

As a “pretty old instructor” who has been doing it off and on for 30 plus yeas, as well as assorted commercial
amd airline flying, I would say there is a fourth possibility which avtomaton has missed, namely that the instructor was giving you good advice in parts, but worded it very badly.
Every instructor should know that students progress at different rates. The easiest, generally, are youngsters spending mummy and daddies money who don’t have to think about anything else, and those that find it hardest are those in their forties plus who can fly because they finally have the money, but who have a lesson on Saturday morning, spend the rest of the weekend with the family, work hard all week without opening a flying book or thinking about aeroplanes, then come back the next Saturday and has to spend half the lesson revising what they did last week.
Maybe, once the dust has settled, try to have a non-confrontational chat with the instructor and see what he reccomends you need to practise, then find an experiemced PPL instructor who can take you up in an Arrow and allow you to do so, better to pay for aircraft hire and £20 an hour for a PPL instructor than £££whatevs per hour for a CPL instructor.
Also, try to put out of your head that a CPL course is x number of hours then you do the LST. Just like learning to drive, people learn at different rates, different people struggle with different parts of the course, and very few go through the whole syllabus without finding something which is harder for them.
Finally, if work means you might fall into the “one lesson each weekend problem student” class, is it possible work and financially for you to take every Friday off ( or every Monday) as part of annual holidays, so you can have a long weekend with three or four lessons and time spent at the flying club / school doing self study ground school and absorbing the ambience of Aviation ?

[jamesgrainge]

It can be a quantum leap going from PPL flying to the standard required for the CPL/IR.
The fundamental key to success is accurate TRIMMING. If this was poorly taught during your PPL phase, then this area must be addresses: that, together with good attitude selections, are vital for a successful CPL outcome.

Not knowing exactly what was said in the debrief, it is impossible to be definitive as to how valid the comments were. Possibly the CPL instructor was having a bad day anyway. It does happen.
Anyway, draw a line in the sand:
1. Fly with another CPL instructor ( not necessarily at the same ATO) You might consider speaking to the CFI for guidance as to how to rebuild confidence.
2. Flying on a full time basis whilst completing professional courses is a distinct advantage. You need to completely concentrate on the flying and the briefings. Weekend flying is not the answer. You need to fully immerse yourself in the training.
3. You make no mention of specific instrument flying?
4. Customers often get setbacks. You need a honest opinion as to the likelihood of success. There is nothing worse than continuing, spending the money, only not to achieve. The IR training is even more demanding, but needs the basic bedrock to be in place. ACCURATE ATTITUDE & TRIMMING. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
5. For those who struggle through the CPL/IR and just achieve by the skin of their teeth, the MCC phase can be just an overwhelming experience. A steady or better performance on the modular course is a prerequisite to become an airline pilot.

Some might regard what I have said as less than touchy touchy feely feely. For those who have gone through the MODULAR route may well recognise what I have said. They are well placed to add their advice for those going through the system.

Out of interest, what do you consider inaccurate trimming? As far as I was aware there are only two conditions, one is in trim, where you can fly basically no hands, and the other is out of trim where you can't?

I often trim neutral heading for the runway for flare ease. Recommend or not?

[parkfell]

Refer to aircraft operating manual for best practice.
In the absence of any guidance, leave the TRIM alone once the approach is STABLE

[rudestuff]

What is this quantum leap? If a PPL holder has been trained to a high standard then the CPL is just a formality. I found it very similar to the PPL - navigate a bit, fly through plane and do the maneuvers.

[parkfell]

What is this quantum leap? If a PPL holder has been trained to a high standard then the CPL is just a formality. I found it very similar to the PPL - navigate a bit, fly through plane and do the maneuvers.

You are quite correct in saying a well taught PPL will find the transition a straight forward process.
For those who are taught to an indifferent standard, and/or perhaps don't have the necessary (natural) ability are going to find it a struggle. A quantum leap would be required to reach the standard.

Not everyone is as fortunate as you when undergoing professional training. Where did you do your PPL training?

[akindofmagic]

He has no right to comment on your aptitude

S/he is the instructor...of course s/he has the right to comment.

aptitude is well overrated, motivation is the key

​​​​​​​Utter tosh.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Either the CPL instructor is just brutally honest or the PPL instructors (and examiner!) have done him a disservice by training him to a poor standard and sending him on his merry way.

S/he is the instructor...of course s/he has the right to comment.
How is that CPL instructor comment supposed to be helpful/constructive then?

[parkfell]

Without knowing the full facts, it is not reasonable to criticise CHEM ENG instructor. As it is unlikely that you will hear the other side of the story, let me speculate what might have happened.
After a series of flights the CPL instructor spoke with the CFI about the lack of progress which the customer was making.
A decision was made to inform the customer that the rate of progress was so poor, that there was not a reasonable prospect of him succeeding even with additional support.
I would suggest that this course of action is better than stringing the customer along, extracting his hard earned money, only to be told much later than really he is wasting his time.
The news is clearly what the customer did not want to hear. It never is. But at the end of the day, this experienced instructor was giving his opinion. It is up to the customer to seek a second opinion, but reading between the lines, I am not terribly optermistic as to what that might be.

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS SITUATION APART FROM WHAT APPEARS IN THIS THREAD.

[jamesgrainge]

If the PPL training was good quality then the person should be able to fly the aircraft almost without thinking about it. I am incredibly grateful to the quality of my instructors, even though I had four within a year, they were all superb, and the standard ops inside the aircraft happen second nature allowing much more brain capacity to deal with unusual situations.

Is this the case OP? Do you fly regularly? Is it simply being rusty? Or have you always felt an extra pressure?

I've always been of the impression if I can do it then anyone can. There appears to be a mythical standard of excellence some people profess that pilots require. Unless you plan on dogfighting russian MIG's I suspect you can and will do it. Keep going, if it's what you want to do!

[flash8]

aptitude is well overrated, motivation is the key
Utter tosh.
So, pray, please explain what this aptitude is? Superior Kinetic/scan skills? We aren't talking FJ here....

The vast majority of entrants today (unlike perhaps twenty years ago, when they were run through a battery of largely meaningless mental/dexterity tests) have one criteria that needs to be met for entry. And that criteria is money in the bank to pay for the course. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no magic aptitude.... as has been stated most people who can get through a PPL SEP satisfactorily (nearly all reasonably intelligent people) can pass the ME, CPL and IR components (some easily, others with some pushing/extra training). After that the possible MCC and T/R are just extra cash. SOPS take care of those who might possibly waver later on the line, granted Base Training/Line training might reveal some weakness but these are usually rectified at this stage in the game.

At no stage do you have to demonstrate anything more than reasonable intelligence and the ability to manage co-ordination to that of a decent level and have the required maturity.

[parkfell]

There is a high correlation between how you perform during the light aircraft training phase, and the multi crew phase.
Struggle initially, and that would invariably be the pattern later on.
The ability to absorb new material, and process it are essential skills for any junior birdman, as the complexity only increases.

[MaverickPrime]

Just talking to my very experienced instructor yesterday about the CPL, he was saying a well trained PPL student should walk through a CPL test after a little bit of polishing up; what does that tell you?

Providing that the handling skills are there, the rest of it is about convincing the examiner that you have the confidence and initiative to fly an aircraft safely. Any decent examiner does not treat a PPL or CPL test as a box ticking exercise, unless they are a moron. They will be looking to see a SAFE and confident pilot, they will not fail you on a formality if you are a 'switched on' pilot.

Saying all that, when you have lots of money, you can buy almost anything in life.

[parkfell]

When I was teaching customers at BAe flying college, Prestwick in the 1990s, the modular CPL syllabus (JAR) on a PA28 was 15 hours plus the test. Those who had been well taught during the PPL & IMC(IRR) rating had no difficulty achieving within syllabus hours. You had a fairly good idea as to how someone would shape up after the first exercise GH. Can they TRIM for S/L, climbing & descending? Answer YES ~ then comparative plain sailing. Most had been well taught by their flying clubs.

[flash8]

Saying all that, when you have lots of money, you can buy almost anything in life.
Even heavy line experience. Eaglejet are currently offering 747-200 (with EFIS) RHS with ICAO minimum (CPL/IR 200TT)+T/R, of course you'll have to put up quite a lot of cash ($49,500 for 500 hours). They won't be looking at aptitude that closely I strongly suspect.

[parkfell]

Paying to line flying for 500 hrs etc, even before being checked out as a FO is immoral. There are fare paying passengers in the back. The operator is simply exploiting the new comers. And there is no certainty of a job offer once completed.
Hopefully supply and demand will cause it to die on the vine.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Agree with your speculation, parkfell, but the delivery of the message to the OP could've been loads better, assuming the OP was accurate in his description of the incident.

[Chris the Robot]

If I've read things correctly, the OP has moved from the C152 to the Warrior, then to an Arrow within the space of a few flying hours whilst not having had a great deal of recent flying beforehand. Could the difficulty be more to do with a currency/new type combination than aptitude? Possibly it would explain the lack of difficulty with the initial PPL training and Night Rating?

[banjodrone]

Hmm,

I could be wrong but that instructor sounds like a very experienced pilot but not a very experienced instructor, or one who is very stuck in his ways. Some pilots just aren't cut out for teaching. A good teacher in any discipline will be able to try different approaches to impart the required knowledge and skills thus adapting to different learning styles. Flying itself is very easy; integrating it with procedures, radio work and checklists is what makes it challenging and that's especially true in IFR work. It sounds like you just need more regular exposure to the environment so you can get comfortable and less intimidated.

[mbafly]

Hi There
Interested to hear what happened as in similar position.
Completed PPL about 8 years ago. Flew local flights about every month but nothing challenging. Started ATPL's about 3 years ago and completed in January 2019. Looking to do CPL, ME/IR but things haven't gone to plan. Looking to do CPL in Spain as due to work commitments I cannot do the complete course. Confidence is at an all time low!
Would be great to hear how things have turned out for you.