What would a cheap ADS-B base cost?

[Dick Smith]

To put in ADS-B coverage to ground level at places like Ballina or Wagga must be at a very low cost compared to the $1 billion Airservices budget. Surely there must be low cost ADS-B transceivers that can be installed at airports.

Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?

Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?

Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.

There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.

Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.

It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.

I look forward to any useful advice.

[no_one]

To put in ADS-B coverage to ground level at places like Ballina or Wagga must be at a very low cost compared to the $1 billion Airservices budget. Surely there must be low cost ADS-B transceivers that can be installed at airports.

Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?

Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?

Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.

There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.

Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.

It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.

I look forward to any useful advice.

I can't help you with the cost of a commercial solution but...

One of these (https://www.amazon.com.au/Raspberry-Pi-3-Model-B/dp/B07BFR7PBS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531800385&sr=8-1&keywords=raspberry+pi+b)...and one of these (https://www.amazon.com.au/Studyset-RTL2832U-RTL-SDR-Infrared-Receiver/dp/B07F673CKK/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1531800452&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=sdr+dongle)... will give you the ability to receive ADS-b signals. There will also be a few bits and pieces like a memory card and a power supply, if you shop carefully you can get all the parts for about $100. See the details here: http://stratux.me/

They are actually quite fun to play with...

[Dick Smith]

What does a real one cost that CASA would allow AsA to use?

[georgeeipi]

What does a real one cost that CASA would allow AsA to use?

Not sure I understand your question. Are we talking about a receive only capability on the ground connected into the internet? If so "No-One" is quite right, a RPI with a low-cost USB receiver will quite happily perform that function. If that is not what you are asking about then what additional function are you after?

[georgeeipi]

Silicon Chip magazine had a nice couple of articles about 5 years ago describing how to make a receiver and its antenna:

Track Aircraft On Your Own ADS-B Receiving Station - August 2013 - Silicon Chip Online (http://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/2013/August/Track+Aircraft+On+Your+Own+ADS-B+Receiving+Station?res=nonflash)
Collinear Antennas For Aircraft ADS-B Signals - September 2013 - Silicon Chip Online (http://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/2013/September/Collinear+Antennas+For+Aircraft+ADS-B+Signals?res=nonflash)

If AsA wants to pay $10k for each one of these then I'll happily make them for them.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!

[georgeeipi]

Folks,
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!

I thought about that. However, the original question seems to be what is required for a minimal system (not even failure proofed). So we can see that for a few hundred dollars, you could have a system that works. An experienced technician could probably assemble such a system in an hour. But lets be generous and say it took a day, 7 hours @ $100/hr, so lets say it could be assembled boxed and shipped for that. Then we are looking at $1k.
Anything that CASA or AsA demands beyond that is a compliance cost and needs to be justified.

[le Pingouin]

You'd be as happy plugging in some randomly purchased uncertified piece of kit into your RPT jet carrying 200 fare paying pax?

[georgeeipi]

You'd be as happy plugging in some randomly purchased uncertified piece of kit into your RPT jet carrying 200 fare paying pax?

Ok, add a once off cost for certification. 1 techo and one CASA inspector standing around watching it for 1 week making sure it doesn't do anything strange.
Techo: 50hours/wk @$100/hr is $5k
Field Inspector with checklist: 30hrs/wk @$500/hr is $15K.
Total certification cost is $20K
Amortize over 1000 certified units = $20/unit
Certified units cost $1020, discount rate $1000/unit.

[LeadSled]

You'd be as happy plugging in some randomly purchased uncertified piece of kit into your RPT jet carrying 200 fare paying pax?

LePing,
Of course not, which is why a transponder is one of the few bits of avionics that must meet relevant TSO standards for operation under CFR 91 FAA operations in US.
Tootle pip!!

[le Pingouin]

That'd would really be testing it :} Not!

[georgeeipi]

That'd would really be testing it :} Not!

I think that is Dick's point though. How much testing do we really need? The aircraft technology is where the important certification has already taken place. All the ADS-B receiver is doing is detecting the aircraft transmission and then relaying it through a communication line. The receiver either picks up a signal or not, and if the micro-computer fails it fails so badly that nothing sensible come out of it-- the system either works or completely fails. In the initial certification you may want to check that it works properly so you may get ATC to query pilots for position reports, or perhaps test it in a radar environment and cross check it with the ADS-B output. You may even continue to operate it that way over a period of a year until you have confidence in the system before ceasing requirements for verbal position reports or turning off the radar. How much more testing is needed? Just stating a vague 'safety' concern like that is what causes costs to escalate exponentially.

[le Pingouin]

Ummm, so you'd be happy with a system that hasn't been thoroughly tested and properly certified to display correctly - the controller might just vector you into Mt Barrow, no big deal. Same for reliability.

Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!

[georgeeipi]

Ummm, so you'd be happy with a system that hasn't been thoroughly tested and properly certified to display correctly - the controller might just vector you into Mt Barrow, no big deal. Same for reliability.

Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!

Umm, I think you're off the track. Just re-read what I wrote and tell me where I said it shouldn't be thoroughly tested. You have to remember that the system we are talking about is simply a relay. It is taking the output of a certified GPS system in an aeroplane and relaying that output to ATC. From a functional perspective, it is as if the pilot was reading his GPS coordinates over a radio to someone on the ground, and the person on the ground then telephoning those coordinates to someone in at ATC centre. Perhaps you could tell me how much verification and validation is required to certify such a system?

[le Pingouin]

And you have to remember that it's being used as part of a system that is safety critical. It has to prove it will play nicely with whatever system it's feeding, is reliable enough, can be fault monitored.

[georgeeipi]

And you have to remember that it's being used as part of a system that is safety critical. It has to prove it will play nicely with whatever system it's feeding, is reliable enough, can be fault monitored.

That's interesting and I agree it is part of a safety critical system, but you did not answer the question.

[AbsoluteFokker]

Here's an idea... ADSB is required mostly in rural areas. The cost for an ADSB-in receiver in conjunction with a satellite dish install is bugger all.

On a few country properties, tell each cocky we're going to install another bit of gear with your dish, and we'll pay you $50 a year to cover the minimal additional electricity bill and the minimal amount of data generated. 1000 sites, $50K a year "royalties to farms" plus equipment replacement.

Bam - nation-wide ADSB coverage at lower levels.

[Bevan666]

There are locations with ADSB ground stations (Dubbo is one that I know of) but they are not being used. There isn't redundant satellite uplinks so the data from the ADSB site isn't being used.

So at lower levels procedural separation is used all the time, not just in the case when the single satellite uplink has failed.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Bevan, now that is an interesting tidbit of information. Someone posted a while ago how his observation of ADS-B coverage dropped off considerably in that part of the country. Methinks he was around Orange where he noticed he was getting "services terminated"

[CaptainMidnight]

Perhaps you could tell me how much verification and validation is required to certify such a system?

Research ICAO SARPs for ATS surveillance systems and ADS-B system integrity and monitoring for a start.

I don't think a rinky dinky $100 receiver quite cuts it.

[georgeeipi]

Research ICAO SARPs for ATS surveillance systems and ADS-B system integrity and monitoring for a start.

I don't think a rinky dinky $100 receiver quite cuts it.

Thanks, I found
https://www.icao.int/SAM/eDocuments/ADSB%20Guide%20Vs1.2%20English.pdf
That seems to have the answer the OP might be after.

[harrryw]

https://shop.jetvision.de/
would seem to cover all the physical requirements, of course CASA is a different story.,
https://www.flightradar24.com/business/data-services


Tailored feeds configured by fleet, airport, route or geographic region
In-flight position updates up to every 5 seconds
Available in JSON format, sent via secure websocket connection
Enhanced flight information available on request

Contact us (https://www.flightradar24.com/contact-us#bs_ds)Historic data files

Historic flight tracking data specified by fleet, airport, route, time period or geographical region
Flight-track positions recorded up to every 5 seconds
Available in both JSON and CSV format, sent via secure download link



should handle the data handling needs with a proffessional membersip....but would it be good enough for.....

[AbsoluteFokker]

It's not rocket science. The ADSB design/protocols are designed to ignore corrupted messages. So all it needs it needs is a series of receivers and a database system that removes duplicates (trivial).

Better yet, use multiple designs fro multiple manufacturers in order to avoid any sort of systemic issue in the software design.

Heck, mandate every NBN wireless tower to have 3 from 3 different manufacturers. Bandwidth is already there.

It's an absolute joke that NBN isn't used for this low bandwidth application.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

How cheap? If you volunteer to provide the internet link and the data back to Flightradar24, and you are in an area they need to extend or expand their coverage, they'll give you the receiver.

[AbsoluteFokker]

I know a few cockies in remote areas that have NBN Satellite that would happily give up a tiny amount of their Internet allocation to contribute to aircraft tracking and flight safety. Thanks for that.

For those others looking for links:
https://www.flightradar24.com/apply-for-receiver#apply

So when will FR24 and CASA/ASA start talking? Other govt agencies crowdsouce data, why not CASA/ASA?

[LeadSled]

I know a few cockies in remote areas that have NBN Satellite that would happily give up a tiny amount of their Internet allocation to contribute to aircraft tracking and flight safety. Thanks for that.

For those others looking for links:
https://www.flightradar24.com/apply-for-receiver#apply

So when will FR24 and CASA/ASA start talking? Other govt agencies crowdsouce data, why not CASA/ASA?
Folks,
With the greatest of respect, you are looking for a solution to a problem, out in the boonies, that simply does not exist.
Dick is talking about several coastal airfields, like Ballina, not the GAFFA.
Tootle pip!!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I'm not looking for a solution, I'm just pointing out they aren't very expensive. A grid of receivers would cost F-all in the great scheme of things.

[Paul O'Rourke]

I asked Paul Baker from flightaware some time ago about using this data for such a thing. He said it was too easily compromised." It works for me though.

Small computer running linux OS with results on screen, 11.23am 19/07/2018. It would be good to have a few peppered out in the never never. They can do multilateration calcs by tying in numbers ground based receivers. The blue thing is a battery powering the computer. It will run it for about 24 hours. 6000mah phone battery.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/788x570/raspberry_pi_zero_w_7982504dc24a8200100fffd522d30b7410c3a0ca .jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/800x295/prostick_f53a6dbd50a01a0897ff08fe7c73694ebb163639.jpg

RPI Zero W $14.96
Rpi Power supply $19.95
USB otg host cable $ 5.00
Prostick rtf sir under $50
SD Card 8gb or bigger but 8 is enough. $??

Internet connection $???
400 gram empty tin can $ 0
cable fittings $ 5.00???
bit of cable $????

[CaptainMidnight]

Who exactly are you guys suggesting should use this gear and for what purpose?

If Airservices for air traffic control, ICAO standards apply for ATC surveillance equipment, systems, performance standards as well as air traffic management -

The SARPs aren't online as far as I am aware, but for an indication try googling something like "icao standards air traffic control surveillance ads-b".

[AbsoluteFokker]

Folks,
With the greatest of respect, you are looking for a solution to a problem, out in the boonies, that simply does not exist.
Dick is talking about several coastal airfields, like Ballina, not the GAFFA.
Tootle pip!!

Pepper the country with them (multiple comms links, some satellite, some NBN, some 4G (there are some new 5G low bandwidth technologies coming too), fix into every aircraft, primary radar not needed!

Hmm where have I heard that before.

[le Pingouin]

It might suit the single seat rubber band and sticky tape fleet but they've gone so far down the rabbit hole we need to send in the ferrets.

[Sunfish]

le pingouin, at some stage ADSB receivers become cheap and generic. At that point you can afford multiple copies and a throw away spares and backup (on condition) strategy exactly as you would for a common light bulb. certification then becomes irrelevant.

[LeadSled]

Who exactly are you guys suggesting should use this gear and for what purpose?

.
Folks,
Exactly, as I have already asked ----- with no answer: "What is the problem, to which this is the answer".

Sadly, with ever diminishing GA, and CASA starting to get its micro-management sticky fingers into RAOz/GFA/AWAL/etc., (all in the interests of safety, you understand) the potential collision risk is diminishing daily, the answer to "traffic information" is increasingly not just "No known traffic" but "what traffic".

A few places I was at in central Queensland, a few months back, there was NO traffic, not a light aircraft movement to be seen.

A few days in Longreach, apart from RPT, and one bankrunner per day, I was staying close to the airfield, the sound of engines??? Near as nil as makes no difference.

Tootle pip!!

[AbsoluteFokker]

I've also been in Controlled Airspace, doing a clockwise orbit of the city, told that there was a twin at the same level a few NM away approaching the city and I reported something along the lines of aircraft not sighted, will keep lookout. 1.5 min later rapid evasive action required. If that's what radar does for us, I'd far rather have an LCD display flashing and beeping a traffic alert with a direction and distance.

The controller in question could easily have separated us by 500ft vertically but thought that a visual lookout was fine (it wasn't). Maybe the twin didn't know what clockwise was, but that controller sure didn't watch us either.

[le Pingouin]

Sunfish, you're still somewhere down that rabbit hole. I very much doubt that will ever happen when we're talking about services being provided to RPT aircraft.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
If you are so freaked out by the collision risk potential with ADS-B equipped aircraft in Class G over most of Australia, might I suggest an alternative mode of transport/sport/hobby.
Failing that, get yourself ADS-B IN, you can get portable el cheapo sets to sit on the glareshield. Just remember, they are no substitute for eyes, and can actually be quite misleading --- as I know from both specification and experience.
AsA is not going to be providing you a "service" any time soon. Indeed, not ever, for VFR in G in all but very limited and unique circumstances.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The proper answer at Ballina and the like is Class E airspace ---- the US/International definition (VFR exempt) of E, not the Australian version.