Douglas Haywood and Ross Kelly

[megan]

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610956-convair-340-c-131d-zs-brv-crash-pretoria-south-africa-2.html

A second person has died as a result of a plane crash during a test flight in South Africa that left three Australians, including the two pilots, in hospital.Qantas said in a statement the airline’s pilot community was in “deep shock” after A380 captains Douglas Haywood and Ross Kelly, who is retired, were critically injured.The pair boast more than 37,000 hours’ flying experience between them and more than 30 years’ service with Qantas. Most on board were *pilots, flight engineers or aviation enthusiasts.“We were deeply upset to learn that two Qantas pilots, one current and one retired, were on board the vintage aircraft involved in an accident in South Africa on Tuesday,” a Qantas spokesman said last night.“This news has shocked the Qantas pilot community and everyone’s thoughts are with the families. We’ve reached out and are providing whatever support we can.”

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/760x911/0508_d8c91d833393105557155a22d9b9ec8c7bd8d51b_077d17955605a5 9790df6e27ae9a07b250073077.jpg

[Keg]

YouTube video of the take off.

https://youtu.be/nitnw__7Qqg

[Capt Fathom]

There is also substantial coverage here in Rumours and News. (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610956-convair-340-c-131d-zs-brv-crash-pretoria-south-africa.html)

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Another video.

[Capt Kremin]

Terrible news. The Convair took off to the west but crashed 4 NM to the ESE of the field on a southerly heading. A flight distance of at least 10NM. Some sort of control-ability problem? Propeller not feathering?

[TBM-Legend]

The crew injuries are very very bad. Pray for them..

[mrdeux]

Terrible news. The Convair took off to the west but crashed 4 NM to the ESE of the field on a southerly heading. A flight distance of at least 10NM. Some sort of control-ability problem? Propeller not feathering?

Sounds to me like they managed to fly most of a circuit....

[morno]

This wouldn’t be related to HARS at all would it? Sad if true :(

[Capt Kremin]

Sounds to me like they managed to fly most of a circuit....

Go and have a look Google Earth. They made a right hand 180 degree turn after take-off and eventually flew a distance enough for two circuits. There was no turn however towards the south-westerly runway to get quickly back to that runway, nor any turn to line up on the runway they departed from. It doesn't make any sense unless there was a control issue.

[mrdeux]

Go and have a look Google Earth. They made a right hand 180 degree turn after take-off and eventually flew a distance enough for two circuits. There was no turn however towards the south-westerly runway to get quickly back to that runway, nor any turn to line up on the runway they departed from. It doesn't make any sense unless there was a control issue.

Perhaps, but I wonder if, having turned base they started running out of power and realised they were not going to get back to the field. They've ended up at at position that is roughly an extension of the base leg. And looking at the 3d form of google maps, the space behind the building that they hit could well have looked appealing...from a distance anyway.

There was a comment that I read yesterday to the effect that they knocked back an ATC offer of 24 to use the longer runway. That also implies to me that, at that point, they had neither control nor power issues.

Hopefully they'll be able to tell us.

[Capt Fathom]

This wouldn’t be related to HARS at all would it? Sad if true :(
The whole thing is sad! No sure why any connection to HARS makes it more so?

[TBM-Legend]

Gents please don't speculate. Right now it's very tough in Johannesburg for many..

[morno]

The whole thing is sad! No sure why any connection to HARS makes it more so?


Of course the whole thing is sad Fathom. No doubt about it.

What I was inferring was that HARS has been over there in recent times dealing with Convairs (they even brought one back), so it would be pretty hard on the guys if they’d just spent a while getting this one airworthy, only to have it crash, particularly with their fellow HARS members at the controls.

It appears not. The only thing in common with HARS is the two guys were associated with them, but it’s nothing to do directly with HARS.

Here’s hoping they’re on the improve early.

morno

[4 Holer]

Forced landing or Ditching not fun. God bless them all hope they recover well and soon.

[FE to the stars]

Where did these guys get their type ratings? I was not aware there were Convairs operating in Aussie.

[Street garbage]

Where did these guys get their type ratings? I was not aware there were Convairs operating in Aussie.
Both did type flying on type in South Africa before they ferried VH-TAA (technically a VC-131D, ex- ZS-ARV from Rovos Rail) from South Africa just under 2 years ago. This aircraft has just returned to flying recently after Ross had an engine failure in the right hand engine whilst flying it last year. Ross was very aware after that incident of the single engine performance of the a/c, especially as the a/c was very light in the Australian engine failure.
HARS website information: https://hars.org.au/convair-440/

HARS currently has three Convair aircraft:

VH-TAA – an ex-USAF VC-131D
VH-EAQ – an ex USN C-131F currently with the Pima Air and Space Museum in Tucson (this aircraft is not airworthy at this point)
VH-PDW – a Convair 580 (Allison TurboProp) freighter at the Parkes Air Musem in NSW

[junior.VH-LFA]

I've heard so many good things about Douglas from so many people in the last 24 hours that know him that he must be a stand out bloke. Thoughts are with him and all involved.

[C441]

I've heard so many good things about Douglas from so many people in the last 24 hours that know him that he must be a stand out bloke.
They both are…..
I've never actually flown with Doug but having met him numerous times around the network I'd be sure anyone who saw his name on their roster would be pleased.
Ross and I flew together many, many times on the 767 in the 90's. He is one of those blokes you actually look for on your roster in the hope you can have another great trip like the last one you flew with him.
I look forward to seeing his smiling face and having a chat again when he recovers.

[Overtheditch]

Anyone in the know about their current medical status?

[V-Jet]

Induced comas - as I understand it.

Cannot add any words about these guys that hasn’t been posted above.

[Overtheditch]

Thank you V-Jet

[Overtheditch]

Response to the rant by IsDon earlier, which would seem to have been pulled by the administrators.

Yes, my first post using THIS username. I am not and never have been a journalist. I am a retired QF B744 captain with 38 years service and 23000 hours. I have had the pleasure of having both Ross and Doug as members of my crews over the years and hold them in high regard.

Additionally I am experienced in long distance ferry of ancient multi engined aircraft one of which suffered a catastrophic engine failure on take off, fortunately before rotate, so you see my interest here?

[Going Boeing]

Ross had an operation on his leg 2 nights ago which has been assessed as successful. His wife is recovering well.

Doug is still critical but is gradually stabilising.

[Overtheditch]

Thank you Going Boeing. Much appreciated. Not close to the news this side of the ditch.

[markis10]

Where did these guys get their type ratings? I was not aware there were Convairs operating in Aussie.

Both PDW and PDX have been hauling freight for years in Australia under Pionair as the operator, while over the ditch Air Chatham have 5 in fleet.

VH-PDX Convair 580 (http://www.aussieairliners.org/convair/vh-pdx/vhpdx.html)

VH-PDW Convair 580 (http://www.aussieairliners.org/convair/vh-pdw/vhpdw.html)

[TBM-Legend]

...also VH-TAA sister ship to one that crashed..

[ausworld]

Thanks for the update on their condition. Much appreciated Going Boeing. Future updates also appreciated

[cooperplace]

I am a retired QF B744 captain with 38 years service and 23000 hours.

Additionally I am experienced in long distance ferry of ancient multi engined aircraft one of which suffered a catastrophic engine failure on take off, fortunately before rotate, so you see my interest here?

When things settle down, it would be great to hear about this; your perspective and experience would doubtless offer some useful lessons to many of us here.

[Overtheditch]

The main Rumours and News post is chock a block with theorists about the cause. Any news on Ross, Doug, wives, families etc? Current status, prognosis, etc. Like IMPORTANT stuff?

[roundsounds]

The main Rumours and News post is chock a block with theorists about the cause. Any news on Ross, Doug, wives, families etc? Current status, prognosis, etc. Like IMPORTANT stuff?
This morning had an update indicating all three are progressing well. All with better prognosis than initially indicated.

[Overtheditch]

Now that IS good news!

[theozguru]

Thanks for the update. It will be good catching up with them for a beer when they return.

[TBM-Legend]

Still in induced comas but making progress I'm reliably informed. Fingers crossed everyone..

[Overtheditch]

Thanks for the update TBM-Legend. Hang in there boys!!

[Overtheditch]

When things settle down, it would be great to hear about this; your perspective and experience would doubtless offer some useful lessons to many of us here.
Not one for war stories,
Too many variables with old types, engines, performance, but to me this looks like multiple issues, and that is not unusual with old aircraft out of long term storage. Official report will spell it out. The resulting arrival where all pax survived and only a jump seater and a ground victim died is nothing short of amazing, and a credit to Doug and Ross. Bon chance mes amis.

[roundsounds]

Not one for war stories,
Too many variables with old types, engines, performance, but to me this looks like multiple issues, and that is not unusual with old aircraft out of long term storage. Official report will spell it out. The resulting arrival where all pax survived and only a jump seater and a ground victim died is nothing short of amazing, and a credit to Doug and Ross. Bon chance mes amis.
I’m certain I read a press release by the SA CAA stating although there were seriously injured persons in the building, the reports of a fatality were incorrect.

[Capt Fathom]

Not one for war stories,
Too many variables with old types, engines, performance, but to me this looks like multiple issues, and that is not unusual with old aircraft out of long term storage. Official report will spell it out.
Why wait for the report. Tell us what you think. :}

[Capn Bloggs]

Out of line, Fathom. :=

[Capt Fathom]

Out of line,. :=
My thoughts exactly!

[Overtheditch]

I’m certain I read a press release by the SA CAA stating although there were seriously injured persons in the building, the reports of a fatality were incorrect.
Thanks roundsounds. Missed that one. An even better result.

[roundsounds]

I understand Ross and Doug mayl be transferred back to Australia sometime in the next few weeks and that Lyndal has been discharged from hospital.

[Overtheditch]

Ripper, bewdy, bonza! Travelling for next six weeks or so but will log in whenever i can get wifi, to catch up on the latest. Thanks roundsounds.

[LeadSled]

That is good news.
Tootle pip!!

[Capt Fathom]

I understand Ross and Doug mayl be transferred back to Australia sometime in the next few weeks and that Lyndal has been discharged from hospital.

Without wishing to put a dampener on positive news, but just wondering how you transport critically injured persons from South Africa to Australia. No doubt the Insurance company weights up the continuing cost of medical treatment in South Africa verses transport costs to Australia.

Something to consider when venturing far from home! Travel Insurance!

[Global Aviator]

Medivac Jet - easy!

[Ken Borough]

Medivac Jet - easy!


Insurance companies are ruthlessly mercenary and hard-headed. They up for a lot of costs while their insured are receiving care off-shore but once they can get them back here, the insurance ends and the taxpayer through Medicare picks up the costs (or private health insurance if that's an option). Insurers do their damnedest to minimise their costs and get the patients back to Oz as quickly as they can. I wonder how much pressure they apply to the medical profession?

[LeadSled]

Medivac Jet - easy!





Folks,
Qantas has "bolt-in" modules for carrying very seriously injured persons confined to a stretcher, including self-contained oxygen and various power supplies with plugs for various equipment.
Carrying badly injured persons is relatively common, it is not cheap, but neither is a medivac aircraft.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Why can't I spell "medivac" (sic) the way I think it should be??

[Global Aviator]

Yep the bolt in modules take out 9 revenue seats from memory (maybe more).

A medivac jet would need to go the long way around no doubt, unless there is a something longer range. In the region I’ve seen the CL605 with around a 7 hour range.

I wonder if QF would assist with these gentlemen? Then it would only be a medivac jet to Joburg, I haven’t followed exactly where they are.

Good luck and get well soon fellow aviators.

edited - yes the site is changing “medivac” to medevac when saving?

[dragon man]

I think you will find and it’s a personal opinion only that Qantas will help out. There is I am told reliably no insurance.

[LeadSled]

Yep the bolt in modules take out 9 revenue seats from memory (maybe more).
Global,
Sound about right, per stretcher, plus seats for the medical attendants.
I sincerely hope they do have travel insurance that sticks, otherwise there going to be an urgent need for a cloud/crowd funding effort.
Tootle pip!!

[PW1830]

Qantas Pilots have been known to be tight with their cash :-( but in this case I have no doubt that the money will not be a problem.
They are both held in extremely high regard as examples of professional pilots, trainers and absolute gentlemen.

[Chris2303]

That's why we charge 9 full Y fares!

I've learnt something today.

[roundsounds]

Returning to Australia (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/qantas-on-standby-to-evacuate-pilots-injured-in-south-africa/news-story/58b458da4373aa86f439a722015069bd)

An article in the Australian newspaper reporting Ross and Doug are to be flown back to Australia for further treatment by QF soon.

[Tankengine]

Returning to Australia (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/qantas-on-standby-to-evacuate-pilots-injured-in-south-africa/news-story/58b458da4373aa86f439a722015069bd)
subscription.

[dragon man]

They are coming back probably in the next ten days. I spoke to a pilot who saw them in hospital Doug is responding with hand squeezes Ross is still critical.

[megan]

Prelim report

http://www.caa.co.za/Accidents%20and%20Incidents%20Reports/ZS-BRV.pdf

[TBM-Legend]

Unfortunately not a good read...

[mattyj]

No ..that’s a terrible prelim!!

[AerocatS2A]

I once had a disagreement with a friend. The issue was that another friend had pranged doing aeros with fatal results for both pilot and passenger. I dared to suggest that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, he had probably ballsed it up somehow. My friend was incensed that I would say such a thing. My opinion was, and still is, that none of us are so good that we can't balls it up. Having accepted that, the goal is then to try and work out why a well regarded pilot can end up in a situation where they don't perform as expected and then try to learn some lessons from it so that we can each be a little safer.

[Derfred]

Unfortunately not a good read...

No, it isn’t.

But apart from the spelling and grammatical errors which my 10yo son could proof-read, the Factual Summary specifically says the F/O was type rated on the aircraft (page 13) but then the preliminary findings says he wasn’t. Of course whether or not that could be a causal factor is not explored by the report.

But what the hell is a comment like this doing in the preliminary findings:

2.6 The Crew resource management (CRM) in the cockpit was found lacking

This statement is made as a “finding” with absolutely no supporting evidence or explanation!

This defies belief in an official report. It probably indicates which direction this investigation will follow.

[rog747]

No, it isn’t.

But apart from the spelling and grammatical errors which my 10yo son could proof-read, the Factual Summary specifically says the F/O was type rated on the aircraft (page 13) but then the preliminary findings says he wasn’t. Of course whether or not that could be a causal factor is not explored by the report.

But what the hell is a comment like this doing in the preliminary findings:



This statement is made as a “finding” with absolutely no supporting evidence or explanation!

This defies belief in an official report. It probably indicates which direction this investigation will follow.


from my take the investigation is taking the Go-pro cockpit (and tail camera) footage as a tool to assist their findings in the CRM comment - (I have read the report)

they do quote that the engine on fire was not positively identified by any of the crew at any time or the LAME who was working the engine controls despite a passenger telling them at once the LH engine was on fire
nor were any fire checklist procedures initiated nor the fire extinguishing handle pulled
handling problems were mentioned by the PF and he noted on startup and taxi out the Rudder control was very stiff
propeller autofeather light was U/S (defective bulb according to LAME)
the a/c was on a test flight straight after A B and C checks but with pax on board for a ''scenic'' flight who had signed indemnities for the flight

until the injured crew are able to provide their recollections of events the findings in the report are all we have as are the camera recordings - much supposition of course is on the R&N thread but on the whole the crew were very likely were trying to fly the plane and keep it going as we see full UP LH aileron in the photos along with open LH engine cowl doors top and bottom -
the flying crew were possibly mindful that the LAME (whose baby this a/c was as he works for Rovos Rail who owned it) was looking after the engines...who knows ?

i wish them speedy recovery and suggest that any further discussion of the report is made on the R&N thread perhaps?

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Sounds like these guys might be in a bit of trouble, especially if the F/O wasn’t type rated.

[dragon man]

Doug arrived home yesterday on the 64. Congratulations to Qantas management for what they have done for him and will do for Ross.

[josephfeatherweight]

I hope everyone involved in this accident continues along the pathway to good health and it is great news that they appear to have been well supported by Qantas.
I don't know these guys from a bar of soap, but reading through this thread and most of the media articles, it appears both Doug and Ross were really top blokes. Top blokes with bucket-loads of experience.
Unfortunately, really top blokes are not immune from making bad decisions - and bad decisions don't always result in horrible accidents.
As an outsider it is disappointing that with all of their collective experience, that the following decisions were made that appear to have contributed to the loss of life.
- one of the pilots not having a type rating
- utilising the engineer to "manipulate" the engines - what a CRM nightmare this would have been when it all turned to custard
- having the pax onboard
Of course, the most likely outcome of this flight would normally have been that everyone had a time and it was a terrific success all-round.
Unfortunately, something went wrong, and the whole thing unraveled.
I know how these events are formulated - it all seems like a good idea at the time and everyone has the best of intentions - but look at the outcome.
Stay safe everyone!

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Sounds like these guys might be in a bit of trouble


Aside from being critically injured and comatose?

[Just Relaxin]

I have known Doug for 40 years (Ross only about 30) and throughout his aviation career he has been a consummate professional. I can categorically state that he had a type endorsement. This seems to imply that the investigation might be a shambles. I suggest everyone, despite it being a rumour network, lay off the rumours and falsehoods and wait for some real facts to be released.

[The Old Fat One]

Just asking...

Could the CRM comment in the prelim not have something to do with the fact that a ground engineer was on the flight deck of an aircraft rated for two-pilot operation and said ground engineer was allowed to stay on the flight deck, kinda operating as unqualified flight engineer, instead of being sent back to his seat (as a the pax he was) and strap in?

I apologise unreservedly if I have any of that wrong...I'm just trying to make sense out of what was going on the flight deck.

[Capt Fathom]

If there was a third seat on the flight deck, there’s no reason why it can’t be used.
While there is evidence this third person was manipulating the engine controls, I have no doubt it was under the supervision and discretion of the pilot in command.

[Don Diego]

So it's ok to let this engineer operate the engine controls during an emergency when he was not a crew member???

[stiffwing]

Remember Sioux city?

[Slezy9]

Remember Sioux city?

One of my very experienced instructors once said to me "don't make S#&T Up, but if you do, it had better work". The Sioux city crash landing worked as best as it could when they "made up stuff". The LAME operating the engines seems very unusual, did he have Flight Engineer qualifications? I guess not as I've not seen it mentioned. There is a reason it takes a full year to go from an aircraft technician to a flight engineer in the RAAF, that's because it's not as simple as pushing and pulling the power leavers.

Having said that, it's only the preliminary report and it's very easy to sit back in the 1G arm chair and throw stones.

[V-Jet]

Used properly, an Engineer can be the best auto throttle you could envisage. Especially one who ‘knows’ the engines being operated. I see that as being a very clever use of resources.

[Going Boeing]

In addition to Just Relaxin’s post, a source from HARS has stated that both pilots were correctly endorsed on the aircraft type. It appears the interim report has inaccuracies.

[Don Diego]

Big difference between this sorry mess and UA 232.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

I thought this thread was about the welfare of two highly regarded pilots. Might I suggest that those who wish to navel gaze do so on the thread on Rumours & News where you will find all manner of experts.

[The Old Fat One]

I thought this thread was about the welfare of two highly regarded pilots. Might I suggest that those who wish to navel gaze do so on the thread on Rumours & News where you will find all manner of experts.

You are probably right, but you might want to take this up with the mods as there is a post in the main rumour and news thread pushing traffic here and then when the unsuspecting arrive the first thing they see is the SA CAA being slagged off, which kinda treads on your point.

For my part, apologies...I meant no offence.

[Don Diego]

Hey Rodney, where does it say that this post limited to comments on the welfare of the pilots??

[TBM-Legend]

It is normal to pose questions about an accident. The welfare of the crew and don't forget the passengers and those lost on the ground goes without saying. Everyone wishes them well.

I've flown the Convair 340 and there is no provision in the AFM for a flight engineer. The 'jump' seat is an observation seat. Fortunately the GoPro camera set-up will give investigators a full portrait of the cockpit and it had sound as well.

It's a sad event however like all aviation accidents the truth is incontrovertible and must be revealed.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

Hey Rodney, where does it say that this post limited to comments on the welfare of the pilots??

Well there is a clue in the title. Besides R&N has a thread with "Crash" in the title which is now up to 20 pages. If those clues don't help, the laws of common decency might provide guidance.
Here is the R&N thread:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610956-convair-340-c-131d-zs-brv-crash-pretoria-south-africa.html

[Murexway]

I've flown the Convair 340 and there is no provision in the AFM for a flight engineer. The 'jump' seat is an observation seat. I instructed on the C-131B in the USAF. We had the ignition analyzers and carried a flight mechanic who could read the analyzer, but he didn't operate the throttles. He was only there to provide maintenance assistance if needed. One day after an in-route refueling at a hot, high altitude airport, I cranked back up but was unable to get the airplane to move, and thought a chock might not have been pulled. The flight mech went out, plugged in his headset, and told me there was no breeze behind the right prop. The right engine was running backwards.

But that's not why I'm checking this thread. I'm more interested in how Doug, Ross, and all the folks who were onboard are doing, and hope they all recover completely.

[ausworld]

I and many others are really concerned with the welfare of the crew and passengers.
Therefore the why of the crash should be left to the experts.
I do know that all the technical crew were very professional and experienced pilots and engineers.
I wish them all well and condolences to those who died which people seem to be forgetting about

[C441]

Contrary to the initial reports, no-one on the ground died as a result of the accident. Some were injured, a few seriously.
For the moment, and we all hope it remains this way, the only fatality was the engineer.

There are anomalies in the initial preliminary report so perhaps until all the evidence has been collected and a final report delivered, some contributors here may choose to moderate their willingness to attribute blame and concentrate on the well-being of those unfortunate enough to have been involved.......especially in this particular thread.

[Rated De]

Every person ever unfortunate enough to have 'featured' in a crash comic, likely commenced the fateful day with absolutely no idea how the day would end.

There but for the Grace..

[Don Diego]

Hey Rodney, had this pair not had this prang I would not know who they were and hence the title of this thread would have been meaningless to me. The OP has just cut and pasted from who knows where and that post does contain details of the accident so again I say why am I limited to comment on the wellbeing of the pilots?? It goes without saying Rodney that I wish all involved a speedy and full recovery. BTW that link is broken.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

It never used to be so difficult to post a link. Go to the Rumours and News forum and look for Convair.

[Capt Fathom]

It’s gone very quiet. Any news on the repatriation back to Australia?

[C441]

Doug was flown home about a week ago. Ross remains unfit to travel yet.

[Keg]

Doug is back. Not sure about Ross.

[stiffwing]

Ross back tonight

[roundsounds]

Ross back tonight
any update on his condition?