11 Group to Reform

[Archimedes]

Done a search and can't see anything, but CAS has announced the following:

11 Group is to reform as 'multi-domain operations group' (i.e. space and cyber)

31 Squadron will re-equip with Protector when it retires its GR4s

IX(B) will re-equip with Typhoon.

[All from the Air Power Conference today]

[ORAC]

11 Group is to reform as 'multi-domain operations group' (i.e. space and cyber) I presume that means a small corridor at HW will acquire a 11Gp plaque rather than buy back BP - and have no historical connection with either air defence or fighter aircraft?

[just another jocky]

Just what we need, another command. :ugh:

[Ken Scott]

Clearly there must be some Air ranks without a job, so problem solved.

[Lima Juliet]

Clearly there must be some Air ranks without a job, so problem solved.



The Chief says that no new posts will be formed and that it will be taken from within. So I suspect that will mean that AVM Steve Shell, as COS Ops, is about to become AOC 11Gp? What is not clear is whether that will be within Air Cmd where it currently sits or a completely new Group.

Reunion in the Crypt Bar anyone???

[Pontius Navigator]

Air Commodore I F Vallely OBE to be promoted Air Vice-Marshal and to be Commander Cyber & Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance in Joint Forces Command in February 2018 in succession to Major General J R Hockenhull OBE.

Got to keep up with the Army

[1.3VStall]

How nice to see that the RAF's finest bomber squadron is to continue flying after it relinquishes its Tornados next year. Anyone any idea where IX(B) Sqn will be based with its Typhoons?

[Timelord]

I think it has already been announced that 12 (Typhoon) Sqn will form at Conningsby so I guess IX will be at Lossie.

[Pontius Navigator]

How nice to see that the RAF's finest bomber squadron is to continue flying after it relinquishes its Tornados next year.

Aye, at Coningsby.

Anyone any idea where IX(B) Sqn will be based with its Typhoons?

[melmothtw]

9 Sqn will be based at Lossiemouth, to be stood up later this year (which means 31 Sqn will take the Tornado out to its retirement in 2019).

As for 11 Group, here are the CAS' comments verbatim:

"The new Group itself will be Number 11 Group - of Battle of Britain fame – a battle which in so many ways was an early demonstration of the power of multi-domain capability and command and control. And to keep a proper eye on efficiency and leanness in our command chain, there will be no increase in star count or overall headquarters staff as a result of forming Number 11 Group."

[OldnDaft]

31 being reformed as first Protector Sqn I believe.

[57mm]

IX(B) with Typhoons? They'll get some serious banter from their fighter squadron counterparts. All those fighter squadron plates that could have been used: 43, 56, 74, to name but a few.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

56 is still in use (ISTAR OEU iirc)

[fantom]

31 good. I was there (don't ask) but we need 208 more.

[Easy Street]

9 Sqn will be based at Lossiemouth, to be stood up later this year (which means 31 Sqn will take the Tornado out to its retirement in 2019).

Both IX and 31 are seeing Tornado out, appropriately as IX was the first front line Tornado unit. The Lossie outfit will presumably grow in number under a (Des) banner until taking the mantle officially on Tornado’s retirement.

IX(B) with Typhoons? They'll get some serious banter from their fighter squadron counterparts. All those fighter squadron plates that could have been used: 43, 56, 74, to name but a few.

IX (briefly) counted Hugh Dowding among its early commanders and was equipped with Bristol Fighters at the end of WW1, so is not all that far behind II(AC) or 6 in terms of air defence heritage - and I don’t hear of them getting any stick for their principally air-to-ground histories. Lists of battle honours don’t come much longer or distinguished than IX’s. Notwithstanding any of that, the idea that a single-digit squadron with an ex-boss on his fourth active 4-star appointment (now the senior military man in NATO) was ever going to be laid up is simply a non-starter!

[Lima Juliet]

Air Commodore I F Vallely OBE to be promoted Air Vice-Marshal and to be Commander Cyber & Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance in Joint Forces Command in February 2018 in succession to Major General J R Hockenhull OBE.

Got to keep up with the Army

PN - that is an extant 2-star JFC post. The 2-star AOC 11Gp will be what was COS Ops in Air Cmd. Also, for those RAF Aircrew on here, he is also Head of the Flying Branch and Non-Commissioned Aircrew.

[melmothtw]

Both IX and 31 are seeing Tornado out

As 9 Sqn is due to disband as a Tornado unit before the end of this year, it suggests that 31 Sqn will be the final unit to take the type out to its retirement next year. No?

Also, does anyone know when 31 Sqn is to reform given that the Protector is not now due to enter service until the mid-2020s?

[POBJOY]

Excellent news with Biggin, Kenley, and Croydon just waiting to reactivate.(we don't need big wings or small wings, just more pilots) nothing changes.

[Melchett01]

Excellent news with Biggin, Kenley, and Croydon just waiting to reactivate.(we don't need big wings or small wings, just more pilots) nothing changes.

And Susannah York as MA/AOC 11!

[Lima Juliet]

Uh oh, now you’ve done it Melchey. Cue BEagle and more Section Officer Harvey banter....

[Party Animal]

LJ - if your prediction is correct, would that be Shelly wearing 3 hats, or would the COS Ops job become defunct? Also, is there another FHQ in the pot with a job for another 1* and his/her team?

[Lima Juliet]

PA -I believe that the COS Ops AOR will become 11Gp. What I don’t yet understand is how that stacks up against the other Groups that were before subservient to what was a HQ Air function in a similar way that COS Pers is for personnel. But 38Gp probably mirrors what 11Gp will become? I’m sure this will come into play with the Air Transformation work due to be reported soon?

[oxenos]

What we really need is 18 Gp.

[MPN11]

"Cyber & Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance" ... CISR.

I wonder what the new Commander will be called behind his back, Brutus?

[Easy Street]

... 9 Sqn is due to disband as a Tornado unit before the end of this year...

Please post your source. I've spoken to contacts on IX who think they're going through to March 2019. If that's not the case then there has been a complete failure of internal comms somewhere, and with postings and family movements at stake a fairly gross one at that. Mind you nothing would surprise me.

[Mil-26Man]

Please post your source

I was there when he said it.

"Today I can announce that the next new Typhoon squadron will be Number 9 Squadron, and will start to form at RAF Lossiemouth later this year."

[melmothtw]

Yes, what he said. Also picked up by Jane's

http://www.janes.com/article/81705/raf-announces-new-typhoon-protector-squadrons

[Easy Street]

"Today I can announce that the next new Typhoon squadron will be Number 9 Squadron, and will start to form at RAF Lossiemouth later this year."

That quote says nothing about when the Tornado unit will cease to exist. It's perfectly normal for a shadow unit to build up ahead of numberplate transfer. NB the word 'start'.

​​​​​​​Also picked up by Jane's

RAF announces new Typhoon, Protector squadrons | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/81705/raf-announces-new-typhoon-protector-squadrons)

Ah, the media ;-) As there are no quotation marks around the information in question in that article, I think the word of those currently planning disbandment events for next March probably wins!

[melmothtw]

It's perfectly normal for a shadow unit to build up ahead of numberplate transfer.

When was the last time this happened? I can't recall an occasion when one squadron has been stood up with a new type before it had been disbanded with its old type.

[Timelord]

When was the last time this happened? I can't recall an occasion when one squadron has been stood up with a new type before it had been disbanded with its old type.

I think that 2 (Typhoon) Sqn was busy forming at Lossie whilst 2 (Tornado) was still going at Marham. Then when the late decision to retain 3 GR4 Sqns was taken because of Op Shader, 2 (Tornado) had to become 12 Sqn, which had itself just disbanded at Lossie!

[melmothtw]

I think that 2 (Typhoon) Sqn was busy forming at Lossie whilst 2 (Tornado) was still going at Marham.

2 Squadron stood up as a Typhoon unit the day after disbanding as a Tornado unit.

Then when the late decision to retain 3 GR4 Sqns was taken because of Op Shader, 2 (Tornado) had to become 12 Sqn, which had itself just disbanded at Lossie!

So, after again.

Any examples of before ??

[Archimedes]

It happened when the Lightning squadrons in Germany transitioned to the Phantom; also the Jaguar squadrons began life as, for example 6(Designate), losing the ‘designate’ suffix upon the Phantom FBSA airframes moving to the AD role. I forget off the top of my head if those squadrons renumbered or whether we had 111(Designate), 23 (Designate) while the Lightning squadrons with those numberplates disbanded.

The practice was mooted for Typhoon, but as I recall there wasn’t enough money nor enough people to allow the F3 and Jaguar squadron (i.e. 6) to continue with their previous airframe while the ‘designate’ Squadron worked up on type and then took over the role.

When this was done, the squadron with the old type would traditionally cease to exist on type at 2359hrs on the due day, take a minute (metaphorically) re-equip and then, at 0001, would be in a position to resume work with its new aircraft.

[Timelord]

Well, I suppose It depends on how you define “stood up” (urgh). There were certainly pilots wearing 2 Sqn badges flying Typhoons from Lossie whilst 2 at Marham we’re still going but no, the Sqn Standard had not been transferred yet.

[Pontius Navigator]

LJ, I knew that, hence the more about Army. I was implying duplication of certain words and no doubt functions.

[Rhino power]

Tornado/Typhoon/Protector comments are at about the 9:00 min mark...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8eq92bF8A&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8eq92bF8A&feature=youtu.be)

-RP

[Easy Street]

Thanks RP. The word “currently” is a nice little get-out clause but no difference in dates between the squadrons at the moment.

“... the final two Tornado squadrons, number IX and number 31 Squadron, are currently due to disband when the Tornado retires from RAF service in March next year.”

Just goes to show how wary you need to be of media reports!

[2Planks]

Somebody better dig out the Dacre Trophy PQD ;)