View Full Version : Stolen C-130: Well worth the long read.
Farrell
8th Jul 2018, 05:31
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-44711694
Pontius Navigator
8th Jul 2018, 09:18
Basically a repeat of earlier report and with inconsistencies. Did the Wattisham Lightning fire a missile or not?
Was the noise at Lakenheath an F100 and not the C130 as stated?
What missile was the Hunter supposed to have fired?
If it crashed near Jersey, what was the French take on that?
Of today it is an incident 49 years ago before many of the Beeb's producers were born and ripe for the usual aviation mystery genre up there with the Sikorski incident, Amelia Erhart, Amy Johnson and Glen Miller ones, not to mention Leslie Howard.
Yeah, all very suspect and often chewed over here. Too many inconsistencies and contradictions.
However, nice to note that old colleague Ernie Scates did the log transcript from Heathrow Radar. ;)
Pontius Navigator
8th Jul 2018, 10:37
MPN, at that was a transcript of a 540, why have they not checked the 540/541 from Wattisham and Chivenor or 540s from Eastern and Southern?
A fair question, although anything sneaky-beaky might have been redacted at the outset. "Do NOT put this in the log."
jimjim1
8th Jul 2018, 11:01
BBC mentions -
Allegedly, the Hunter pilot had returned to Chivenor minus missiles
Were RAF Hunters ever fitted with Air to Air missiles?
BEagle
8th Jul 2018, 11:37
No.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
DODGYOLDFART
8th Jul 2018, 11:44
No.
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Certainly no British ones but not the case with some export jobbies. However as I have said before even a Hunter 6 or 9 loaded with practice ammo (ball) should have been capable of knocking down a C130.
The Hunter/missile aspect really places this reporting in Bin 13.
I think everything else has been refuted by those who were actually there.
Pontius Navigator
8th Jul 2018, 13:00
Interesting "Rick Groombridge said" and "refused to be interviewed"
chevvron
8th Jul 2018, 13:02
The Hunter/missile aspect really places this reporting in Bin 13.
I think everything else has been refuted by those who were actually there.
2 Lightings were sent out from Wattisham.
I was on duty at West Drayton at the time and remember the request from the air defence people to penetrate the LTMA.
Pontius Navigator
8th Jul 2018, 14:28
Chevvy, no dispute that it happened, just scepticism on the journalistic mystery with its suggestion of a British aircraft shooting it down and then a cover up. 50 years on, many players still around, and no one saying it happened.
Did a Lightning fire a missile or not? Did a Hunter have a missile? Did no controller heard the order to fire? Etc etc?
chevvron
8th Jul 2018, 14:55
Chevvy, no dispute that it happened, just scepticism on the journalistic mystery with its suggestion of a British aircraft shooting it down and then a cover up. 50 years on, many players still around, and no one saying it happened.
Did a Lightning fire a missile or not? Did a Hunter have a missile? Did no controller heard the order to fire? Etc etc?
Like others, I heard UN CONFIRMED rumours of one of the Lightnings rtb minus a missile.
The Old Fat One
8th Jul 2018, 15:19
The article finishes with...
Once upon a time there was a young, troubled war veteran who just wanted to go home.
I wonder how it would have been reported (then and now) if he'd lost it on take off and planted it into a housing estate ??? Dude was to some degree intoxicated and completely unqualified - any outcome was in play I venture. That fact that he ended up in the oggin, whilst individually tragic for him and his loved ones, would have been something of a relief for most of us, would it not??
Pontius Navigator
8th Jul 2018, 16:08
Like others, I heard UN CONFIRMED rumours of one of the Lightnings rtb minus a missile.
Exactly, but Rick Groombridge declined to be interviewed and no further evidence has been produced. Even failure to disclose the ORBs would have been evidence of a sort.
Like others, I heard UN CONFIRMED rumours of one of the Lightnings rtb minus a missile.
And yet Nash denies missing missile? Everyone contradicts each other, so someone is lying or has forgotten or enhanced reality. Or, of course, there was a massive Security stamp whacked on the whol subject, which may explain Mr Groombridge’s refusal to be interviewed.
Just This Once...
8th Jul 2018, 17:06
Well I'm convinced the Chiv Hunter returned with no missiles. Indeed, if it had returned with missiles there would have been a very confused pilot and see-in crew.
Haraka
8th Jul 2018, 17:33
Disregarding the :"Hunter Missiles" nonsense, Rick Groombridge did write his 'Lightning Boys" account, which puts him in a corner.
BEagle
8th Jul 2018, 18:08
It really doesn't surprise me that Groombucket had the sense to decline to be interviewed about this bolleaux….
I don’t want to buy the book, but for the purposes of this thread what did Groombridge say about the incident?
Yellow Sun
8th Jul 2018, 18:43
There are 3 relevant questions that need to be asked and at least plausible answers provided.
1. Why shoot it down? The aircraft was heading into French airspace and the only area or site that might require it was stopped quickly is the French nuclear reprocessing plant at La Hogue. Anything else and it becomes a French problem and their decision.
2. Who would authorise the shoot down? It has to be a political decision, no serving officer would have authority to order engagement of an aircraft that represented no threat to the UK even if the US authorities requested it. It is just within the realms of possibility that they might accede to a French request to do so if they were unable to deal with the situation themselves. But it would almost certainly require US agreement.
3. How would the intercept be controlled and by what means would the authorisation to engage be promulgated and relayed to the interceptor? There’s now a long chain stretching back to Wattisham, High Wycombe, MoD, Foreign Office, West Drayton, CRC et al. That’s an awful lot of people in the know and this is a quite exceptional event.
BTW I don’t believe in Conspiracy Theories but readily subscribe to the C**k Up Theory.
Answers on a postcard please.
YS
Tony Mabelis
8th Jul 2018, 20:20
BBC mentions -
Were RAF Hunters ever fitted with Air to Air missiles?
Dutch or Belgian Hunters ( I cannot remember which after 55 years) were definitely fitted with Sidewinder air to air missiles.
I know this, as I was tasked with removing the rails from the aircraft wings when they were returned to Hawkers for refurbishment and resale.
Tony
Yellow Sun
8th Jul 2018, 20:23
I recall seeing Dutch Hunters with Sidewinder at Soesteburg in 1965.
YS
Airbubba
8th Jul 2018, 21:56
More about the 1969 C-130 incident in this earlier PPRuNe thread:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/355396-stolen-military-aircraft.html
The Old Fat One
8th Jul 2018, 22:00
There are 3 relevant questions that need to be asked and at least plausible answers provided
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it is entirely unclear to me why anybody needs to provide any answers to any questions, plausible or otherwise, unless a UK prosecuting authority determines that there are questions to be answered. I looked on the UK prosecuting authorities website where they are all listed, and I confess I could not find pprune on it :confused::confused::confused:
Phantom Driver
8th Jul 2018, 22:12
BEagle
It really doesn't surprise me that Groombucket had the sense to decline to be interviewed about this bolleaux….
What's Groombucket up to these days ? Been a while.......
Warmtoast
8th Jul 2018, 22:54
I posted copies of some contemporay press cuttimgs about this event on PPRuNe here:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/355396-stolen-military-aircraft.html#post4607044
WT
Pontius Navigator
9th Jul 2018, 07:58
BEagle
What's Groombucket up to these days ? Been a while.......
see PM. .
Tankertrashnav
9th Jul 2018, 11:06
BTW I don’t believe in Conspiracy Theories but readily subscribe to the C**k Up Theory.
I wonder what it is that gets people into the mindset that they would prefer an outlandish explanation for an event rather than the more credible (but possible boring) one. No doubt psychologists have researched this phenomenon and published papers on the subject
Personally I have filed the C130 shoot-down story along with the Kennedy assassination/fake moon landing/UFO abduction stories. I suppose there is a whole section of society who believe that "they" are behind everything, and I doubt if they will ever be convinced by more mundane facts
gr4techie
10th Jul 2018, 08:23
Another thing that doesn't sound right... Did Hunters ever do Q? If not, how did it get in the air so quickly?
Unless the Hunter happened to be already airborne in the area and was asked to divert for a look?
diginagain
10th Jul 2018, 16:25
I wonder what it is that gets people into the mindset that they would prefer an outlandish explanation for an event rather than the more credible (but possible boring) one. No doubt psychologists have researched this phenomenon and published papers on the subject
Personally I have filed the C130 shoot-down story along with the Kennedy assassination/fake moon landing/UFO abduction stories. I suppose there is a whole section of society who believe that "they" are behind everything, and I doubt if they will ever be convinced by more mundane facts
"No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated."
Also known as "Crabtree's Bludgeon."
MPN11
10th Jul 2018, 19:08
Another thing that doesn't sound right... Did Hunters ever do Q? If not, how did it get in the air so quickly?
Unless the Hunter happened to be already airborne in the area and was asked to divert for a look?
Hunter going Night-flying at c. 0500 ... hahahahahah :D
Fred J****es of fond memory (all his career a DFGA pilot) was reputedly night-flying at Tengah while hiding in the Compass Swing base, but making the appropriate r/t calls ;)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/naturally-selected/201412/why-humans-are-hardwired-conspiracy-theories
Tankertrashnav
11th Jul 2018, 17:30
Very interesting ORAC - thanks. I have a chemtrails believer in my family and nothing I can say will shake her from her belief. She is of above average intelligence, but that seems to apply to some people who believe in the most bizarre theories.
Anyway I am going to take more notice of my sandwiches as I eat them from now on!
TEEEJ
11th Jul 2018, 21:37
Very interesting ORAC - thanks. I have a chemtrails believer in my family and nothing I can say will shake her from her belief. She is of above average intelligence, but that seems to apply to some people who believe in the most bizarre theories.
Anyway I am going to take more notice of my sandwiches as I eat them from now on!
Direct her to the following website.
Contrail Science ? The Science and Pseudoscience of Contrails and Chemtrails (http://contrailscience.com/)
Tankertrashnav,
Read up on False Pattern Recognition and Apophenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
https://theiowaatheist.blog/2018/01/22/deep-thoughts-apophenia-and-pareidolia/
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/09/apophenia_makes_unrelated_things_seem_connected_metaphors_pa ranormal_beliefs.html