Doing the ATPL exams..... Again

[pipertommy]

Hi, my ME/IR expired greater than 7 years ago. Yes I was an idiot to allow it expiry, having ran out of steam from the economical down turn. I have been contemplating renewing my IR which involves having to resist all those exams again :(
I wondered if anyone in a similar situation and do we have any options ? Or advice??
​​​​​​Thanks.
PT.

[felixflyer]

There are a few of us that have decided to do them again in the current market.

You will be as surprised as to how much you have actually retained as well as forgotten.

You don't need to do the brush ups again and can get through it much quicker second time around.

[rudestuff]

Good news! You don't need to take the exams again. Have a really good look at Cap804.

[pipertommy]

Good news???? No exams??????

[rudestuff]

Assuming you have a CPL, yes. You don’t need to take the ATPLs again.

[pipertommy]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1080x1920/screenshot_20180629_180132_d1531254ccf641b18de8978dedfda7bcd f7523ec.png

[pipertommy]

Says the atpl credits are gone after 7 years?? My understanding that loss of credits resulted in ability to renew an IR?

[Okavango]

Good news! You don't need to take the exams again. Have a really good look at Cap804.

Not too sure of that. My understanding was that the CPL only credits VFR Comms. Unfortunately it's resits for the other 13. Happy to be proved wrong though that's how it went for me. As said above you'll be surprised at what you've forgotten and what you remember but overall little has changed - get stuck in and it isn't too bad.

[rudestuff]

Good news! You don't need to take the exams again. Have a really good look at Cap804.

Have a REALLY good look at Cap 804, trust me it's in there.

[pipertommy]

I have and can't find anything to suggest different to the 7 year rule. If you know the section or page number it would be appreciated. Thanks.

[rudestuff]

I assume you want to get an FO job asap, but you don't want to do the ATPLs again?

[rudestuff]

I offered the good news... As Cap804 is now for reference only, no one really knows how the caa will respond, but it is still a pretty good guide. Cap 804 clearly shows that you do NOT need to retake the IR or ATPL exams to get your IR back.

[paco]

That is not what the CAA are saying

[rudestuff]

Perhaps not, but it's all about asking the right question. The CAA still have to follow Part-FCL (for now).

The OP (understandably) doesn't want to take the ATPL exams again, but wants to get his MEIR back. That is possible under the current rules. It is in cap 804, it is in Part-FCL and it is even on the CAA website.

[rudestuff]

Ok. Hi, my ME/IR expired greater than 7 years ago. Yes I was an idiot to allow it expiry, having ran out of steam from the economical down turn. I have been contemplating renewing my IR which involves having to resist all those exams again :(
PT.

Unfortunately nothing is going to get those ATPLs back, after 7 years they're gone. But the question was about the IR.

I would suggest that you take the ATPL exams again, but if you *REALLY* don't want to take the exams, you can buy/fly your way out of it:

Get an FAA IR (min training in your case)
Log 50 hours PIC under IFR
Convert via CBIR and only take an oral exam.

You can avoid the exams, I didn't say it would be easy or cheap!

[Reverserbucket]

That's a more expensive option I would say unless you have held an FAA IR or other that has lapsed by less than seven years. To renew an IR lapsed by more than seven years in the UK requires completion of the IR(A) exam series: Air Law, Aircraft General Knowledge - Instrumentation, Flight Planning and Monitoring, HPL, Met, Radio Nav and IFR Comms. HPL and Met are credited to candidates who have previously held a CPL or completed CPL Theoretical Knowledge Exams. The Learning Objectives for the IR series exams are narrower than required for ATPL and much of it will look familiar (even after a number of years). A set of notes and access to good practice papers is essential and I would also recommend BGS (no affiliation). Following the theory, for the practical renewal, an assessment by the HoT of an ATO is required from where a training programme based on the outcome of the assessment, period the rating has lapsed by and overall experience can be proposed (EASA states the entire course must be retaken however the CAA has filed a derogation (see CAP804 FCL.615 IR(A) Theoretical Knowledge Examinations and Flight Instruction)).

Test must be completed with a CAA Appointed Approved IRE (same as for an initial and similar to the old CAAFU staff examiners in essence). Completion of successful test and application (assume you held a JAR-FCL licence so probably SRG1104 would be the appropriate form) will result in a Part-FCL (and National one if you wish) CPL/IR. Any other ratings you held will be recorded on the reverse page of the licence and can be added to the active page when renewed (again, for a fee). MCC however is non-expiring so should be included on the front page with the IR. I'm assuming you did not reach the experience requirements for an ATPL(A) issue and therefore if you seek employment I believe you would ultimately need to take the ATPL subjects again unfortunately (which of course may be the sensible course of action to start with) but there may be jobs out there where a CPL/IR would suffice perhaps? Not sure an airline would look at you though without ATPL credits. All factual guidance above courtesy of CAA Licensing Standards.

Good Luck!

[rudestuff]

The OP already has ATPL theory credits.

To preempt the the obvious response, the 7 year rule only applies if you want an ATPL. For example, ATPL credits are valid indefinitely if you want to be a flight instructor or to get a multi-crew type rating.

There are a number of things to consider here, mainly time and money. A 61.75 is practically free, 15 hours of FAA training and test should cost about £2000 and 50 hours in an IFR pa28 or c172 is £4,300. Flights, visa and an Airbnb should make it around £8000.

That’s a lot of money, but you’ll be done inside a month and exempt from both the ATPL exams and any assessment or training requirements at an ATO. You’ll also have an extra 65 hours to pad the logbook, not to mention an extra IR and a great time. That’s significantly cheaper than a full time ATPL course where you can’t work for 6 months. A distance learning course will of course be cheaper, but it still takes 6-12 months of hard work not to mention £1000 in exam fees.

If I was in the OPs position, I would prefer to spend a bit extra, get the exemption, get the extra hours and be finishing up my MCC in 2 months instead of 18 months. There are jobs out there right now. You won’t get to be a captain for 4-5 years so there’s plenty of time to get the ATPLs done later (and when they talk about EFIS and IRUs you’ll actually know what they are talking about!). One last thing, don’t bother getting your MEP. Most airlines use Jets :)

[Reverserbucket]

The OP already has ATPL theory credits.
The obvious response is that the OP had the credits but IR lapsed by more than seven years therefore no longer holds those credits unless an ATPL had been issued. If a CPL issued, in order to obtain an ATPL, the OP is required to undertake the ATPL examinations again following a period of seven years since expiry of last IR (note that the CAA also gives a little more latitude than Part-FCL). If you obtain a Multi-Crew Type Rating, meet all the other prerequisites including 500 hours multi-pilot experience and get the ATPL issued, then the 'credits' become valid for the life of the licence. Not sure how a Flight Instructor can hold ATPL credits indefinitely though without already holding an ATPL? Can you provide a reference to this?

Don't disagree that the FAA IR path is an option in the case of an expired IR but probably not for everyone as I feel the costs you have estimated are a fair bit higher than the MEIR renewal (in fact it would be a CBIR). Do we know whether the OP had MCC credit? If so, and as mentioned, no need to do it again. If OP is looking for an airline job, ATPL credits are normally required before selection - usually states CPL/IR MCC with ATPL credit. A large EU LoCo is currently requiring: Valid EASA Frozen Airline Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL), Valid multi-engine instrument rating, Flight crew license (theoretical ATPL with valid EASA CPL*) [* with a MEIR and MCC constitutes the oft-referred to 'Frozen' ATPL]

Concerning the MEP, to open a Part-FCL licence, the OP will need a class or type rating and therefore I would have thought for the sake of what little is required to combine a MEIR with a MEP skill test, it would save time, effort and money in the long run. But as said earlier, if its only the IR that is required, only the IR exams are necessary.

[rudestuff]

A flight instructor is required to have passed the CPL (or higher exams) - but there is no time limit specified (there are many other threads on this) so a someone who has passed all the exams but missed the 36 month window can still use them for that purpose.

Once you have taken any exams, you have taken them. The validity periods are to do with HOW you want to use them. 2 years for a PPL, 3 years for CPL or IR and 7 years from date of last IR entered in the licence if its for an ATPL.
As exam credits are downward creditable (I used them for my PPL!) That leaves the bizarre situation where at 2½ years they have 'expired' for a PPL but not for a CPL!
Anyway, for the purposes of getting an FI or MP TR - there are no validity periods mentioned. Why do airlines ask for ATPL theory credits? Because it is a requirement for the MP TR.

One thing I've learned is that very few people at the CAA nowadays know very much about the rules. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if getting the IR back gave you another 7 years!

To the OP: These are all ideas and options, use a search function in cap 804, then cross reference to part FCL. If you can spare the money, spend it and you'll qualify much sooner.

Think about this: Every year that you wait, your flying career is a year shorter. That's one less year as a senior Captain. You'll be out of pocket at least £120k in today's money. That's £10k a month. Get on the wagon before the wagon leaves you behind.

[Reverserbucket]

Anyway, for the purposes of getting an FI or MP TR - there are no validity periods mentioned
No, because these are ratings; the exams are required for licence issue as well as initial MP TR however the assumption that a type-rated first officer revalidates an IR through an LPC/OPC within the 12 months before expiry, means that the ATPL credits are refreshed. Similarly, an FI who revalidates an IR each year maintains exam credit 'currency' but there is no credit extension offered to an FI who has not renewed an IR for more than 7 years.

I've attempted to give some practical advice based on actual experience. From the perspective of obtaining an FAA IR to circumvent the 7 year rule, based on my understanding of the FAA IR, for someone looking to achieve a job flying EASA types in the EU, you could better prepare yourself by just renewing the IR in the EU in view of the fact that you will need to undertake the proficiency check there regardless. If you haven't used your ME IR for 7 years, best of luck to you getting through an assessment with an FAA IR and previous, distant experience.

[rudestuff]

I can see that I've confused you a bit, I'm not talking about an FI with an IR!

Lets say Billy takes the ATPL exams.
If he wants a PPL, they are valid for 2 years.
If he wants a CPL they are valid for 3 years.
If he wants an IR they are valid for 3 years.
If he wants an ATPL it is last IR+7 years.
If he wants an FI certificate they are valid forever. Even if he never gets an IR or CPL, he can still use those ATPL passes 20 years later for his FI course.
If he wants wants to use them for a multi pilot type rating, there is no reference to validity periods.

references:

FCL.720.A (d) 3 MPTR requirements, requires ATPL, no mention of validity.

FCL.915.FI (b) (2) (a) for FI, exams last forever

FCL.025 (c) exam validity periods. No mention of Type Ratings. It refers to LAPL, PPL, SPL, BPL, CPL, IR, EIR only. Where it says
* Note: the validity period specified are for the issue of a licence or rating, as applicable
It is only referring to the licences and ratings specified, not ANY rating. And clearly the emphasis is on the word issue.

[rudestuff]

From the perspective of obtaining an FAA IR to circumvent the 7 year rule, based on my understanding of the FAA IR, for someone looking to achieve a job flying EASA types in the EU, you could better prepare yourself by just renewing the IR in the EU in view of the fact that you will need to undertake the proficiency check there regardless. If you haven't used your ME IR for 7 years, best of luck to you getting through an assessment with an FAA IR and previous, distant experience.

As i have said before, the 7 years only relates to getting an ATPL. Which is years away. An FAA IR and 50 hours PIC under IFR will exempt you from the IR exams. Either way, some training at an ATO will be required, there's no getting away from that.

With a CPL/IR/MCC/JOC the only remaining issue is can you use ''old" exams for the MPTR. If someone REALLY doesn't want to do the ATPL exams again, there are options.
​

[Reverserbucket]

FCL.720.A (d) 3 MPTR requirements, requires ATPL, no mention of validity.
FCL.915.FI (b) (2) (a) for FI, exams last forever
Sorry to sound pedantic rudestuff, but I have to question your interpretation of Part-FCL - a PPL with no IR and without an ATPL issued cannot retain ATPL credits indefinitely. You are correct that neither FCL.720 or FCL.915 mention validity periods and certainly a PPL with ATPL TK credits could undertake an FI course in 20 years from now but would not maintain the original ATPL credits unless they held an IR and had renewed it at least every 7 years. Same for a Type Rating - the intention of Part-FCL is that the credits are valid at the time of course commencement.

[rudestuff]

a PPL with no IR and without an ATPL issued cannot retain ATPL credits indefinitely.
I agree.

a PPL with ATPL TK credits could undertake an FI course in 20 years from now but would not maintain the original ATPL credits unless they held an IR and had renewed it at least every 7 years.
I agree.

Same for a Type Rating - the intention of Part-FCL is that the credits are valid at the time of course commencement.
Is it though? What does 'valid' mean? Intention is all well and good, but what is written is:

have passed the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations in accordance with this Part;
​​​​​
Not much there to deconstruct.. have passed indicates just that, no mention of a period of validity. In accordance with this part I take to mean in accordance with Part-FCL. The only mention of validity is FCL.025, but that only mentions licences and the IR/EIR, not type ratings or class ratings. Since there is an explanatory note in the flight instructor section regarding validity, that would indicate it is an interpretation, so it's quite possible that the same could apply to type ratings. Since it's such an unlikely scenario perhaps no one has asked the question yet?