Mixing UK flight training with US flight training?

[magpie]

I am at the very beginning of my PPL training in the south of England. I do not want to wait to go to Florida early next year to start (this year's hollies are already booked). However, when I do go to Florida I will have, hopefully, done twenty to thirty hours of PPL training, and will aim to complete it out there. Is it wise for me to mix and match between the UK and the USA mid PPL training? Has anyone tried this? Finally, although the adverts for the US flying schools all seem to promote package training, I presume I would not be financially penalised for embarking on a (lets say) twenty hour PPL completion course? :)

[Manflex55]

Are U sure U can actually split the approved course for the JAR-FCL PPL between 2 different outfits in 2 different countries ? & why not do the whole thing in FL during your holidays : it will probably B quicker (as U can fly every day, unlike here) & certainly cheaper. As an example, I did the CAA PPL in Vero Beach in 20 days for the equivalent of £2,500. However, it's a good thing to have a few hours training in UK airspace afterwards as RT here is quite different !

MF

[Midland Maniac]

Be carefull. Some of the packages that are available in the USA say that they will get you a PPL in three weeks for a certain amount of money. I had a friend who went out there with 20 hours and he got his PPL for the same amount of money that an ab initio would, and only did 22 hours flying!!! So make sure that you are going to get what you pay for....the american legal system is a lot different to the english one !!!

Read the small print!!!!

[Sensible]

MM, if it's the same establishment that I think you are referring to, it's heads they win and tails you lose!! the scenario which you describe occurs but if the student runs over 46 hours flying, I believe, they get charged extra.

[GoneWest]

RedHot - there are dozens and dozens of students that come across to "complete" their training....unable or unwilling, for whatever reason, to complete in the UK. It happens every day.

Although I am HEAVILY involved in the short, sharp shock courses (21/28 day PPL) I have to admit that I am not a lover of them.

I do see a distinct difference if people have done some flying in the UK before coming over (and I'm doing myself out of work by saying that - but it's true).

Another MAJOR plus would be to get all written examinations and possibly R/T practical out of the way before crossing the Atlantic. You wouldn't believe how much easier it will make your course.

Again, I meet many students who have not done anything before coming out here - and it HURTS them.

[BEagle]

GoneWest - if you really are involved in these PPL factoy-farming activities, will you please teach your students:

1. Flight by reference to visual attitude.
2. A rigorous method of visual navigation - preferably the Standard Closing Angle technique.
3. Recoveries from spiral descents.
4. Forced landings without power that would be survivable.

The reason I say this is that the majority of ex-US trained PPLers I have to retrain are fundamentally weak in all these areas; it can't just be student aptitude!

I can understand why you want all the exams completed - PPL exam passes must be debriefed and that would cost you time and consequently cash. But the stories I've heard of the receptionist marking PPL exams and the FE(PPL) 'running out of time' on PPL Skill Tests - perhaps that means 'running out of the school's allocated time' - as well as tapping his pocket for an expected tip after doing the Test. There may well be an undercover visit at a certain school very soon.....

[magpie]

MF. Thanks for the advice. However, there are two reasons why I am looking to split the training;
Firstly, I do not think I will be able to complete the PPL in the UK before March 2002.
Secondly, as most of you will have experienced, I just can't wait that long to begin, the juices are already flowing!
As I am hoping to spend three weeks in the sunshine state, I would hope to complete the PPL, spend some time hour building and, if there is time, look at IMC and Night Ratings.
GoneWest. Thanks also for the advice. I presume that I should e-mail the various flight training centres with my requirements closer to the time and ask them to quote me a price?
:)

[GAF4139]

red hot amateur

With flowing juices you might be better of getting yourself a girlfriend. Doing a PPL in USA won't help in this case I'm afraid. (Trust me, I am not a doctor)


GAF4139

[magpie]

I would GAF, but every time I try, the wife finds out!! :D

[GoneWest]

Beagle - my involvement with the factory farming does not include tuition.

To be fair to the students, however, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that a US trained pilot is any worse at PFL's than a UK one...however, for the first three I agree 100%.

Attitude flying, visual nav and spirals descents do not appear to be part of the FAA CFI rating - and despite numerous standardisation instructors trying their hardest (I've witnessed many attempts), the FAA CFI will not (generally) change his way.

Attitude flying is taught by means of attitude indicator (what else???).

Nav - major aim is to be on the line you drew and find the next feature...not "get to destination".

I was a more than a little angry at the comment about suggestions of non revenue time for debriefing exam papers. If you are levelling that comment at me - then you are seriously mistaken and grossly out of line.

The suggestion that students take the exams before going Stateside is to give them TIME to get the flying done. EVERY single person I meet - who has done the flying and the self study (groundschool?, you must be joking) admits that at the end of the three weeks they are "shattered" (with a capital F) and wished that they had done the writtens before travelling.

Other comments, though, made me think for a while (and I agreed with them). I understand your comment about receptionists and exam papers (want to e-mail me??) but do not understand either of the references to "running out of alloted time" or "expecting a tip"

You've made me very curious - prepared to send me an e-mail??

<<edit for typo>>

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: GoneWest ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have converted my share of US trained intensive course PPL's to join British clubs.

BEagle has neatly identified what appear to be the main common problem areas.

Unusual attitude recovery techniques in addition to spiral dive are often absent - not a strict syllabus item but very quick andeasy to throw it into stalling lesson 3 or steep turns...

PFL's that are fine in the wide open plains of the US but of little value when trying to put the aircraft into Farmer Palmers 5 acre top pasture field replete with fine oak trees and ManWebs plumbing at the far end.

A propensity to stare inside continually chasing needles rather then really really nail the visual attitude using dead flies, canopy frame and cowling/horizon cues. In addition an over dependence on radio nav aids.

Navigation which is fixated on slavishly following a track line rather than quantifying error and compensating appropriately i.e. closing angle to regain in equal time OR at destination.

I would also add that standards of r/t are very different in the UK and the airspace is more complex. Telling me how you laned a C152 at LAX does nothing to impress me as a chimp can follow radar vectors in a TMA. You trying scudding around the UK with a 3000' cloudbase hoping from an air/ground operator at Little Piddlington to negotiating a MATZ clearance then talking to a major international airport for a VFR transit or willing to take a Special VFR or maybe a RAS off them before emerging the other side to find no-one to talk to than London FIS who a real busy and can't help you very much with anything other than the regional pressure setting and the time of day... UK airpsace is crowded and controllers rightly demand a competent command of correct RT and it is very hard to master this requirement if your RT has been developed in a radar everywhere just treat it like a telephone atmosphere.


Make sure you budget for 4 hours check out on your return from the US. The club you join may well not offer the same type of aircraft that you trained on in the US plus the 'fit' of it will be different, you will be very low time so will require extended local procedures tuition plus a decen club instructor will want to put you through a skills test of his own before signing you off.

If you train at your local school/club/airfield then post skill test no checkout will be required, no local area briefing and no conversion of aircraft model/varient. This saves money. You will also feel a lot more confident and enjoy your license more from day one.

You really don't want to be nervous, unsure of procedures, frequencies and have to map read contantly when you've just got you license and inevitably you are taking all your family and mates flying.... Plus the 100 hours post skilltest are the most dangerous and you need the most knowledge and experience on your side as possible....

I was talking to someone recently at work who has been stateside for a PPL course and in the end it cost £3,400 by the time they were able to exercise that licence down the road at the local flying club.

There are several flying schools in the UK which offer PPL courses for less than that. Witht he current high dollar low pound exchange rate the savings are very marginal. It becomes more worthwhile if you are also building hours ready for the CPL. But then you will find doing the CPL course and skilltest in the UK quite hard as you are now expected to operate to a safe Commercial standard with all the weaknesses I listed earlier. You are likley therefore to need some extra hours tuition on the CPL course. At circa £180 per hour you can rapidly eat into any saving you made going Stateside...

Good luck,

WWW

ps what have you done to research prices? I hope you've contacted all your local flying schools and talked to them about package discounts/free membership/IMC,Multi,IR,CPL course availability/going all the way with them to commerical licenses therefore can I have the CFI as instructor from day one please.... OR have you just read the glossy adverts in the back of Pilot/Flyer....???

[magpie]

Thanks for the advice WWW.

My research has been mainly through magazine articles, this web site and visiting a couple of local flying schools. The problem with researching a subject that you are relatively new to, is that each time you think you have all of the info, someone more experienced adds in a new dimension. Of course I mean that in the nicest possible way, hence the thread. Thank god for PPruNe, it really does save much heartache!

The nature of my current job means that I tend to move around somewhat and am, therefore, unlikely to stay with the same flying club for the duration.
From all that I read, I can see that there are fundamental differences (aswell as the obvious similarities) in flying in the UK and US. However, I would hope that by the time I had got to the 150hr point about half of the hours would have been flown in each country. Regular flying (four to six hours per month) in the UK and concentrated blocks of time in the US. Hopefully the time spent in the UK will address any shortcomings that BEagle suggests are possible having completed my PPL in the US, and vice versa.

The reason for the choice of not staying in the UK for the block periods is that the time will also be used as a holiday for my wife and I (well weeks two and three will - hopefully after PPL completion). I am aware that you have spent time at Welshpool (and I would happily spend two or three weeks there or somewhere similar) but my wife, for some reason, prefers the USA. As she is supporting me in this pursuit (and having read the thread on whether flying makes you a bad person) I have to remember on which side the bread is buttered.

Once again, thanks.

I would be interested to hear from a PPruNer who has completed PPl training in the US, having started in the UK.


:)

[notice]

I don't wish to digress into the s.....ubstance of God's attack on training abroad, except to say that you would have the same bollocks if you had just qualified at School X in Scotland and then turned-up to hire an aircraft at Club Y in Wales, or even the next town. Fact is friends, they all rubbish each other and find any excuse to make you pay more.

I'm not saying the training cost anecdote was untrue and you might still do a JAA PPL course for £3400 now in Florida (including food, flight and everything) but where can you do a JAA PPL here for £3400? Current/recent students say the real cost turns out to be £5-6K, or even more, in UK and that doesn't include any accommodation food and travel costs which are in the Florida figure.

[Golden Monkey]

In support of at least one of WWW's points I would say that having done a PPL in Canada (which admittedly is a whole lot different to a US license, but bear with me), coming back to the UK the R/T was by far and away the most difficult thing to convert.

The R/T in the UK is not only a lot more complex but it also uses a completely different terminology set (even clearences), which combined with learning new airspace is a major trial. I'd say four hours of conversion time is conservative if you're anywhere busy, and it'd probably help to own a scanner to help you attune yourself.

Am I correct in thinking that there is also no hood work requirement of any kind in an FAA PPL?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its a shame you can't train all in one place it really does help:

The biggest hurdle by far is the IR followed by the CPL skilltest Nav section.

If you have trained from day one at Much Wailing aerodrome and you will know the local flying area inside out by the time you come to take your CPL and IR from that same airfield. This gives you an ENORMOUS advantage.

I think that a good chunk of the higher pass rates experienced by fully integrated large FTO's is the fact that by the time the student reaches the two big stumbling block tests they know the local test airspace like the back of their hands.

I did it the harder way of a PPL here, an IMC there, a CPL somewhere else and then an IR in Bournemouth. Each time you were working so much harder just to keep track of where you are and what the next ATC gotcha is going to be...

Be wary of the holiday/training ethos - you will be very busy, knackered and stressed whilst you train intensively. Not condusive to a happy holiday experience for the Missus...

Still its your unique personal circumstances that count - hence no universal right answer.

For those asking about prices for PPL courses my old employer still offers a 45hr PPL with 10 nights accom (you'll need more accom but its only £15 a night special rate and its a very pleasant barn conversion by a river), all maps/pens/charts/headsets/Trevor Thom books and skillstest for £2,995. A further IMC can be tacked on the end for under £1,500 as well.

There are other schools out there (Humberside, Exeter, Scotland) that offer PPL courses for less than £3,500. Remember that you can often wangle a discount particulaly if you want IMC/Night/Multi courses in the near future or discounted future hours building.

As I mentioned earlier using the fact that you are going professional can often allow you to negotiate having the CFI as instructor and that is a well worth having usually...

Remember the PPL is just the beginning and you really should be trying to work out how best to pass that CPL and IR test - if that means learning in the same test area, or with the same instructor, or in the actual same or similar aircraft then *perhaps* a little extra cost now will pay dividends later...

Also remember that the PPL is the bedrock of your flying ability. Learn bad or just incorrect habits and procedures now and it takes an awful lot of effort to shift them later.

Good luck,

WWW

[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[Lemoncake]

CZBB,

For the FAA PPL 3 hours minimum of hood work. Standard rate turns, climbing and descening turns to specific heading and altitude, VOR tracking and unusual attitudes etc. The chap doing my checkride had me under the hood for 20 - 30 minutes or so, and we covered all these aspects. Must keep in practice now I'm back over here!!

[Vortex what...ouch!]

WWW. So who is offering this course? I am serious. Presently I hold a PPL/H with about 150 hours and want to get my fixed wing. Any idea what time I get off for good behaviour on the conversion :)

[Delta Wun-Wun]

I can`t beat WWW`s price,but the club I fly at out of Coventry will knock lessons out at £74/hr with an Instructor....works out to about £4000 inc of exams and bits of kit.
For that you also get Tower,radar and approach Controllers.Access to a Commercial Instructor with free advice if that`s the way you want to go. :cool:

[magpie]

The advice about becoming familiar with the airspace in which one is going to take the CPL and IR seems sound. As soon as I get some stability in my location I will heed that advice, and identify the best school within the area. The reality is, of course, that I will not be starting the CPL and IR for almost two years (assuming a twelve month period for ATPL distance learning course)and my employers will definately have moved me (at least once) by then, hopefully within the UK!

Thanks to all for the contributions.

:)