Fatigue

[arse]

Wandering around YouTube, I came across this from a couple of years ago. You could just about replace the labels Emirates and FlyDubai with Cathay and Dragonair and the article would be just about as accurate, ... minus the accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uHwS4Hmf7A

[BalusKaptan]

Absolutely!
Just look at how many incidents of a serious nature that have occurred recently in CX where fatigue has played a major part. Initially it may not be obvious and so it can easily be dismissed but it is insidious and potentially disastrous. Now put that into the equation with the continual decease in experience and there IS going to be a bad outcome. It is only a matter of time. Those that have been here a while are getting huge pressures when operating because of events that happen and insufficient backup from the other crew/s as they only have 'book' knowledge, no actual experience.
There have been aircraft divert under emergency conditions (suspected fire onboard) to an offline port then 'self certify' themselves and the aircraft as fit and depart.
There have been aircraft depart home base to be told enroute via acars that vital parts of the flight controls have not been refitted after maintenance and are still in the workshop.
There has been an emergency declared and diversion to a difficult airport while the CN was taking his inflight rest. Relief crew didn't wake the CN as that would prevent the flight meeting the requirement
of the FTLs. WTF!! If you are diverting and landing many hours short of destination then it is going to be irrelevant but thats what the inexperienced do, no common sense/practical application. Subsequently management had to recover the aircraft in unfamiliar and onerous conditions. They are management, don't have as much experience as the line pilots. They stuffed it up, destroyed an engine that those of us that had the experience of operating in this type of severe weather knew about but were sidelined.
There have been new aircraft types with problems but despite those problems becoming well known to management, operating crews where kept in the dark. Resulted in a serious incident where not only lack of readily available info being withheld from operating crew but engineering hiding behind an MEL that was not at all appropriate. Outcome? Discipline the crew where in reality the CN did an outstanding job in protecting the aircraft with absolutely NO support from management or engineering.
Right, now, tie this all together...try doing it when exhausted and you get crap decisions which when you are making them may seem logical but in the cool light of day, after getting well rested you question 'why did I do that?'.
In summary, the pressures exerted by fatigue when you need to be alert and clear thinking are increasing and though it's not the 'In' phrase anymore, the holes in the swiss cheese are going to line up and Bingo!!
I've only covered a very, very few of the recent events but it gives an idea of the trend and it is not good.
I don't want to revisit this post in the future and say the accident was forecast but that is exactly where CX is headed.

[BusyB]

Interesting, todays London Times has an article about fatigue finally being seen as a problem for Medical staff as well!!

[swh]

Medical staff tend to bury their big mistakes

[MACH.88]

As do we.

MACH.88 😎

[VforVENDETTA]

Several very close call incidents in the last decade. This even before the recent major degradation of experience level of new joiners. Make no mistake about it, the quality and level of training at cx has always been very poor or non-existent. New joiners managed to pull themselves thru with the experience and knowledge they brought with them from elsewhere and keep it safe. That is how the operation was kept safe so far. Knowledge and ability level of new SO's is very very low. Scary low. I don't know who the hell is signing them off. This is an extra negative factor/hole in the swiss cheese. Add to this the increasingly fatiguing schedules of late/hole in the swiss cheese. The day is fast approaching when what happens will be too big to bury.

Call in Fatigued when in doubt to keep yourself from becoming a statistic.

[Apple Tree Yard]

If the CX traveling public (and the press) only knew what is really going on the other side of the cockpit door.

[motley flight crue]

I sorry to hear you CX boys/girls suffer from fatigue. We don’t have fatigue in EK. Our DFO said so!!!!!

[stevieboy330]

A CX skipper & friend told me last year at AEP that he has woken up from controlled rest more than 25 times in the last year to find the SO next to him fast asleep on Aussie night flights !

[rationalfunctions]

If the CX traveling public (and the press) only knew what is really going on the other side of the cockpit door.

Fortunately the safety video helps put us to sleep, so we're out, care free, before take-off.

[Global Aviator]

Problem is it’s many airlines and a FEAR OF REPORTING culture. As travelling public we as pilots know which flights to book to minimise risk.

Until pilots consistently write fatigue reports or call fatigued there simply is not a fatigue issue in the companies eyes.

I know one place where everyone complains about a certain flight but in one year less than a handful of reports and well...

Our own worst enemy.

Only even remote possibility to correct is if reports or calls are done!

[rationalfunctions]

As travelling public we as pilots know which flights to book to minimise risk.

Is this based on carrier or time of day? And do any pilots travelling as SLF honestly choose to take specific flights to minimise risk (aside from avoiding carriers with poor safety ratings)?

[Flex88]

CX - Our highly automated Crew Rostering System (CMP) applies very tightly controlled fatigue rules which are agreed to and approved by the HK CAD in conjunction with a rostering practices agreement with the pilots union.
We, without exception, apply these rules and agreements therefore fatigue CANNOT be a problem. It will always be the pilots problem if they are fatigued... DFO.

Following some sort of incident, the above is what the company will say. Please tell me if I'm wrong...

#CXit

[The FUB]

Apparently the CMP even factors in an average delay of 4.65 hrs on the 747 to ensure fatigue is mitigated. And a 23hr duty day can be reduced to 15hrs if local time is applied instead of total time. The GMO stated that px time was relaxing and recreational even in 33E between 2 250lb local passengers.

#theydontcare

[Global Aviator]

Yes I try to avoid paxing on flights where I believe the crew could be struggling to stay awake.... I mean fatigued... I mean fine it’s legal...

Over the years offering everyone from the CEO down to come and play a pilots roster in the jumpseat it’s never happened, even had cattle prod ready for dozing.

To think pilots get involved in this rostering is well erm!

Move along nonissue here.

Oh if an authority received reports at say a level of guessing over 50% that certain flight was fatiguing with certain pairings they would have to act or defend the minor mishap or worse when the, but the reports were submitted and you did nothing.

As I said own worst enemy!

[yunebug]

You want to know more about Fatigue... rumours are... Try Ryanair..

[controlledrest]

Fatigue is only a problem if you let it be one.

Stupid rostered duty? Contact Crew Control tell them the rostered duty has serious fatigue issues, ask for another duty (copy in Nina). If you aren't adequately rested prior, contact them again 'unable to do the duty due fatigue'. File an ASR-F. Easy. If enough of us do it, the patterns are changed.

At sign on, given another duty which you can't complete safely? Tell them just that. File an ASR-F. Carry on.

Down line, didn't get adequate rest (possibly due to company choose of hotel), contact Crew Control, 'unable to do the duty due fatigue'. File ASR-F.

Hit a wall in flight, take controlled rest, file an ASR-F.

It isn't hard. As a professional pilot one has a moral and legal responsibility to operate safely. Some patterns the company expects us to perform can not always be completed safely. Grow a pair, stand up for what is right.

[mngmt mole]

Could not have put it better.

[captain8]

You could just about replace the labels Emirates and FlyDubai with Cathay and Dragonair and the article would be just about as accurate, ... minus the accident.

Wrong. Its accidents at Emirates and FlyDubai.

Nothing at CX or KA. Not a serious incident in 30 years. Despite fatigue, the guys are actually good at managing this.
Unlike at Emirates. A threat? Yep. Stay on the Fragrant Airline.

[Scoreboard]

Wrong. Its accidents at Emirates and FlyDubai.

Nothing at CX or KA. Not a serious incident in 30 years. Despite fatigue, the guys are actually good at managing this.
Unlike at Emirates. A threat? Yep. Stay on the Fragrant Airline.

dude u have no idea in the last 8 years how close we have come for just one person breaking the chain.....CX aint better they are just extremely lucky....Now we hear only the good news and rumors of what bad things could have happened...

remember the TCAS RA ignored since the junior hadnt been trained that yet......or the fatigue approach into a middle east airport? Or what about the PER flight with eng shutdown.....normally its 2 crew with one taking “controlled rest” but that one nite it was training so had 2 awake.... It wont be just CX that will cop it one day...the reckoning has yet to come to this negligent Civil Aviation department who writes what CX wants..... 2 x P2X SO on long haul yeah thats fine......exmpetions to FTL yep u got it.....hey CAD grow some gonads and do what your meant to protect the travelling public.

[spleener]

dude u have no idea in the last 8 years how close we have come for just one person breaking the chain.....CX aint better they are just extremely lucky....Now we hear only the good news and rumors of what bad things could have happened...

remember the TCAS RA ignored since the junior hadnt been trained that yet......or the fatigue approach into a middle east airport? Or what about the PER flight with eng shutdown.....normally its 2 crew with one taking “controlled rest” but that one nite it was training so had 2 awake.... It wont be just CX that will cop it one day...the reckoning has yet to come to this negligent Civil Aviation department who writes what CX wants..... 2 x P2X SO on long haul yeah thats fine......exmpetions to FTL yep u got it.....hey CAD grow some gonads and do what your meant to protect the travelling public.
100% Scoreboard! But I think you shouldn't feed the troll.....

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

Does CX not have an approved fatigue policy? Here in the States, if you are fatigued you are required to call in fatigued and the only question the airline can legally ask you is when you will be fit for duty. Fill out a fatigue report to make sure you get paid, end of conversation. I have done it on a few occasions. It's really the only way to get rid of onerous pairings. Surprised a high caliber outfit like CX doesn't have something on the books and is not required by regulating authority to implement a fatigue system..

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Exactly, there is a policy. I've used it and same as above. Filled out a fatigue report and no questions asked

[Avinthenews]

Surprised a high caliber outfit like CX........

Afraid we're no longer in 80's those days are long gone problem is people just see the book cover and don't do adequate research. HK is Asia it's not the western world Swire plays by Asian rules not western because they can.