Hunter endurance anybody?

[effortless]

listened to account of stolen C130, apparently hunter sent off in pursuit. What sort of endurance would a Hunter have had then?

[sycamore]

Depends on Hunter type, F6/9 or T7(smaller engine),then on aircraft tank fit,internals +2 x100 gal/4 x100g/or 2x230 /or 2x230+2x100.Then depends on how far you want to go,preferably high,then remain orbiting,or are you following,possibly, What are the upper winds,what is your diversion options,ie down-route,or RTB..?A C130 will cruise at about 300-320kts max,and fuel for about 7-8 hrs internal appx..A Hunter in max fit will have about 8200 lbs fuel and at low level will use about 4500lbs/hr,reducing to about 2500 l/hr at 30000ft.So if it`s a `chase` and then RTB at high level ,I would reckon airborne for about 2.5 hrs max.
I`m sure a Hunter expert will be along shortly to correct my `guesstimate`....!!

[rotorfossil]

I remember my annual instructors week at the CFS Hunter flight at Kemble. Hunter 4’s, no tanks and a serious need to get back on the ground after 45 minutes medium level fun.

[effortless]

Thanks, listening to the rt transcript was sad and I remembered a bit of the scuttlebut. I seems that a couple of frightings on QRA didn't contact so they sent a Hunter from Chivenor. I just wondered how far the C130 would have got and if a Hunter had a hope of reaching it before it ran out of sky.

[nipva]

As Sycamore has stated, it depends on the drop tank fit. From Chivenor an FGA9 would normally have 2 x 230gal drop tanks whereas an F6 would have had 2 x 100 gal tanks. Fitting of extra tanks was quite involvedand time-consuming . It also required airborne flow checks so it is unlikely that this would have been done for a short notice launch from Chivenor. From practical experience (Gibraltar to Brawdy) with 2 x 230s plus 2 x 100s a sortie length of about 2¾ hours was just possible landing with minimums. This was flying at Range speed of 0.8M. You could probably add an hour to this if flying at Endurance speed. I regret that I no longer have my Hunter FRCs (Flight Reference Cards) to give you more accurate figures but I am sure that someone out there will have and thus be able to give you a definitive answer.

[effortless]

Thank you nipva, a very informative post. The piece did actually imply that the Hunter returned without stores. Implication was that they wanted it downed. Can't see why as he was heading westward. Not likely to be getting into unfriendly hands would he?

[ORAC]

Thank you nipva, a very informative post. The piece did actually imply that the Hunter returned without stores. Implication was that they wanted it downed. Unless they think the pilot might have dive-bombed the C-130 with drop tanks I am uncertain what difference in aircraft configuration they expected to be able to see between take-off and landing......

[Wwyvern]

In 1961, my Squadron was tasked with reinforcing ops in the Middle East. Iraq threatened to invade Kuwait, (Gulf War Minus 1?) and we provided additional Hunter FGA9s to the supporting squadrons on Bahrain. My flights between UK and Luqa and Nicosia and Tehran were of 2hrs55mins duration. We had 2x230gal and 2x100gal tanks fitted.

On a Hi-Lo-Hi exercise strike from Stradishall on Saxa Vord, we took 2hrs15mins, with an RTB stop for fuel on Leuchars.

Sorry, no info on Endurance.

[4Greens]

I did training on them in the late fifties and without tanks an hour was it.

[just another jocky]

Thank you nipva, a very informative post. The piece did actually imply that the Hunter returned without stores. Implication was that they wanted it downed. Can't see why as he was heading westward. Not likely to be getting into unfriendly hands would he?

If it was the piece on BBC Radio4 this morning, my understanding was that the Hunter came back with an empty gun, intimating that the Hunter shot down the C-130. They also said that the C-130 was heading across the Channel, that the French QRA had been alerted too, which means the unqualified guy flying it did not know his west from his east.

[sycamore]

Since there appears to be sparse info on the aircraft ,the `fugitive` would have had to have an idea of the fuel reqd. to reach the USA,or possibly Canada,unless he was aiming for the Azores US base.(very doubtful,unless you are a good navigator.)Distance to Newfoundland would be ~2400nm,.to nearest bit of USA~ 2900NM,and accepting a nominal 40 kt headwind average would require an aircraft with at least 60 k lbs of fuel,giving a flight time of about 12 hours . Maybe he had got this info,and previous flight plans,otherwise he was not going to get very far.Anyone have any more info..?
With regard to the Hunter returning`without stores/ammo`,it may have been that once the externals were empty,the were dropped,all the ammo was fired off,and the aircraft climbed to 40/45k.ft. for return depending how far it had gone ,etc,etc....only whoever flew it will know...or maybe someone who remembers which aircraft it was,and what is recorded in the log/auth.sheet..if they were completed ,of course...!!! or the ATC log...

[ORAC]

Covered on the two threads below, the first containing a link to yet another earlier thread.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/609264-stolen-c130-story-radio-2-s-jeremy-vine-show.html?highlight=C-130

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/607926-missing-c-130-37789-a.html?highlight=C-130

[jindabyne]

effortless,

On Dec 8th, 1965, I flew from Jeddah to El Adem, a time of 2hrs:40mins, in a Mk9. I agree with nipva that, deftly flown with full tankage of 230's and 100's, an endurance time of 3:45 should have been possible - interpolating from my old Mk 6 Pilot's Notes.

But I most certainly wouldn't take heed of anything put across on the airwaves by Jeremy Vine. If you read the post by 'fixed cross' in ORAC's reference to Vine's show above, he puts forward the reality of things!

[BEagle]

The C-130 took off at 05:10 and crashed 1:45 hours later. Which means at around 06:55. The chances of anyone at Chivenor being rounded up to generate a Hunter at that time on a Friday morning, in time to be armed, take-off and make a visual intercept are zero.

Ball ammunition was invariably used for range firing, rather than HE. F6 only flew with one gun available, although the FGA9 might have had two available. So spotters, sorry but no way would a Chivenor Hunter with 4 x 30mm Aden cannon with HE rounds have been available at that time of day!

The Hunter myth is clearly total bolleaux!

[nipva]

'The chances of anyone at Chivenor being rounded up to generate a Hunter at that time on a Friday morning, in time to be armed, take-off and make a visual intercept are zero'

Quite apart from the fact that the Chivenor Commcen was not usually manned overnight.

[PDR1]

The Radio 4 version of this story is even less likely IMHO. They claim that QRA-South was phoned and told to expect an american to drop by, who would relieve the QRA pilots. They then say that the american duly arrived, and shortly afterwards flew a QRA lightning on a mission. The different versions of the story they told then claimed that said Lightning returned with or without some/all of its missiles.

...because of course the USAF had a plentiful supply of current, Lightning-qualified pilots and trhe RAF routinely handed over aircraft and stood-down QRA to foreign officers on the basis of a single phone call. Happens every day...
:suspect:

PDR

[Stitchbitch]

The Radio 4 version of this story is even less likely IMHO. They claim that QRA-South was phoned and told to expect an american to drop by, who would relieve the QRA pilots. They then say that the american duly arrived, and shortly afterwards flew a QRA lightning on a mission. The different versions of the story they told then claimed that said Lightning returned with or without some/all of its missiles.

...because of course the USAF had a plentiful supply of current, Lightning-qualified pilots and trhe RAF routinely handed over aircraft and stood-down QRA to foreign officers on the basis of a single phone call. Happens every day...
:suspect:

PDR

My take was that the American took over the 'Ops' side of things and left the steely eyed Brit QRA pilot to do the biz. Nice to hear 'Lightning boys' and 'G+10' get a mention, the piece was entertaining if slightly far fetched... ;)

[GeeRam]

The Radio 4 version of this story is even less likely IMHO. They claim that QRA-South was phoned and told to expect an american to drop by, who would relieve the QRA pilots. They then say that the american duly arrived, and shortly afterwards flew a QRA lightning on a mission. The different versions of the story they told then claimed that said Lightning returned with or without some/all of its missiles.

...because of course the USAF had a plentiful supply of current, Lightning-qualified pilots and trhe RAF routinely handed over aircraft and stood-down QRA to foreign officers on the basis of a single phone call. Happens every day...
:suspect:

PDR

Well.............on the subject of American pilots and the Lightning and daft conspiracy theories.....

I've always been surprised that the fantasy theorists have never tried to make a connection with this story and the incident the following year involving USAF exchange officer Lt.Schaffner who was killed when the Lightning F.6 he was flying crashed into the sea in mysterious circumstances, involving claims of UFO intercepts and the like...on the basis that Schaffner must have been the USAF QRA Lightning pilot that came back with a missing missile in this story and thus had to been later eliminated by the US Govt to cover this deed up, hence the mysterious circumstances of Sept 1970.... :p :E
Surprised Hollywood haven't turned it into a film yet :)

[2 TWU]

Wasn't Wattisham holding southern Q that day? There was of course a US exchange pilot on base.

[Heathrow Harry]

To go back to the OP I was rereading the Putnam history of Hawkers - many pages on the Hunter of course but hardly a single mention of range..................and nothing in the performance tables - astonishing really......................

[MPN11]

My only 2nd hand contribution to the original question ... when Tengah’s 20 Sqn Hunter FGA9s went to Seletar for Major Servicing, they were stripped of everything. Tanks, Pylons, Gun pod, Sabrinas etc. There was a roster as to who would fly it there, Utterly clean, and stripped to the bone, it apparently generated 20 minutes of intensive fun before a fuel priority recovery to Seletar. ;)

[kenparry]

My only 2nd hand contribution to the original question ... when Tengah’s 20 Sqn Hunter FGA9s went to Seletar for Major Servicing, they were stripped of everything. Tanks, Pylons, Gun pod, Sabrinas etc. There was a roster as to who would fly it there, Utterly clean, and stripped to the bone, it apparently generated 20 minutes of intensive fun before a fuel priority recovery to Seletar. ;)Gun pod???? Never saw a Hunter with one of those.

[MPN11]

Gun pod???? Never saw a Hunter with one of those.
Sorry ... gun tank, or at last the heavy internals I believe.

[jindabyne]

Gun Pack ----

[MPN11]

Thanks :ok:

[BEagle]

Of course the GT6 had no radar, gunpack, gun sight, or sabrinas and was painted in a polyurethane high gloss go faster raspberry ripple colour scheme. Which resulted in this 'trainer' being somewhat quicker than a greased weasel with its tail aflame.

I wonder what it would have been like without tanks or pylons?

Did you ever fly a GT6 in that configuration, jinda'?

[jindabyne]

Only once that I recorded - and that was after jettisoning the tanks shortly after take-off due to engine vibration - 24 June 75. Bloody hell - 43 years ago to the day!

[BEagle]

Time certainly flies, eh Jinda'?

Some 8 months after your event, I'd just taken off from Brawdy and felt some unusual vibration through the airframe, which eased a bit when I slowed down, but was still there every time I turned... So I was advised to jettison the tanks into St Brides Bay and RTB with a fixed throttle approach. All went OK, but a tyre burst on landing, debris from which somehow managed to bend the pitot tube.

After the engine was tested following a check of bleed valve operation, it was cleared as being OK.

Then some experienced Hunter mate told me that, if the nosewheel rubbing block wasn't properly connecting with the tyre to slow it down after retraction, it could still be rotating 10 min later - and if it was out of balance, it would certainly cause the vibration I'd experienced. Oh well....

A mate of mine joked to one of the humourless USN people from the Biscuit Factory "I hope that (BEagle) didn't blow your headphones off when he dropped his tanks on your cables!". A stony faced silence followed as we weren't supposed to know about SOSUS in those days....:hmm:

When Happiness Was Hunter Shaped!

[Fonsini]

I recall reading some years ago that there was one particular Hunter pilot who had most of the highest/fastest/longest records - the “longest” sticks in my mind for some reason, southern england to a base in Libya on one tankful. It was often touted to dispel all the talk of “30 minutes and get down” from the F.1 days.

All from foggy memory and therefore dubious.

[effortless]

Thanks everyone, I've really enjoyed reading all your posts. I was just so dubious at the idea of him being reached after such a time in the air. I suppose he could have been flying in circles.

[kenparry]

southern england to a base in Libya on one tankful.

You would probably need an average tailwind of about 150kt to manage that. We used to do West Raynham - Luqa - El Adem, and with 2 x 230 gal and 2 x 100 tanks on the FGA9, there would not be much left on arrival at Luqa with typical winds. That would be about 2hr 40 min, with another 1hr 30 or so for the second leg.

My longest was Gib - West Raynham, same tank fit, 3hr 00 min. We landed with just about enough for a Marham diversion. The plan had been Gib - St Mawgan; the TAF was OK, 3nm & 1000ft or so, but it went out in sea fog...……………. so we stayed high & stumbled on across England at FL480.

Happy days!

[rvusa]

https://peek-01.livejournal.com/102931.html

After the retirement of Neville Duke, Hawker then appointed Merewether as its chief experimental test pilot. On the 2 October 1958, he flew a Hunter Mk.6 non-stop to El Adem, Libya (a distance of 1,588 nautical miles) in three hours and 19 minutes (at an average of 548 miles-per-hour). The aircraft carried the new 230-gallon (1,046-litre) fuel tanks on the inboard wing pylons with a pair of 100-gallon tanks mounted on the outer.

[nipva]

Rvusa

This must have been a specially modified F6 as the F6 never carried 230gal drop tanks in service - the inboard hardpoints weren't cleared for them . It was only when modified to F6A which included strengthening the hardpoints that 230gal drop tanks were cleared for the inboard pylons. I also suspect that this particular F6 was stripped down and that it din't land at El Adem with much in the way of reserves. Certainly my experience and that of other posters above is that 2¾ hours was about as far as as in-service a/c could go landing with a degree of diversion fuel. or 3hrs without

KenP

Your Gib-West Raynham sounds a bit like my Gib-Brawdy. TAFs were fine at launch for our en-route div of Porto and wx div of St Mawgan but both went out in sea fog however Brawdy was OK (just!) so we pressed on. St Athan was now the only div (no Chivenor in those days) and we hadn't enough fuel to land with that so Brawdy held all recoveries until we were down.
Your 3hrs must have been very tight indeed.
.

[kenparry]

This must have been a specially modified F6 as the F6 never carried 230gal drop tanks in service

From the date, I suspect it was XF374, which Hawkers retained for a while as a development aircraft. I have an undated photo of it at Dunsfold with that tank fit, but no brake chute fairing. Whichever airframe Hugh used, it must have been very clean and highly polished to get 3hr 19min!

The other reason the standard F6 did not carry the 230 gallon tanks is that the flaps needed the outboard corners cut back for the big tanks.

[Snafu351]

The C-130 took off at 05:10 and crashed 1:45 hours later. Which means at around 06:55. The chances of anyone at Chivenor being rounded up to generate a Hunter at that time on a Friday morning, in time to be armed, take-off and make a visual intercept are zero.

Ball ammunition was invariably used for range firing, rather than HE. F6 only flew with one gun available, although the FGA9 might have had two available. So spotters, sorry but no way would a Chivenor Hunter with 4 x 30mm Aden cannon with HE rounds have been available at that time of day!

The Hunter myth is clearly total bolleaux!

Anybody else wondering what BEagle was up to that morning? He doth protest too much n'est pas?? ;)

[BEagle]

On the date in question I would have been enjoying the delights of Flight Cadet training at RAFC on 99 Entry.....:\

[Tengah Type]

BEagle
You are forgetting that in that time long long ago it was a "Can Do" Airforce.
A phone call direct to the Station Commander,who then called the SDO and Orderly Sgt, would have a good chance of having several SNCOs including Armourers at the line in a few minutes. I was not at Brawdy so I do not know how they operated, but there is a good chance that some of the aircraft had valid Before Flight Servicings ready for the first wave and that several gun packs were loaded,in the Armoury, and ready to go as well. The Staish would also, no doubt, have authorised himself for the sortie! So it could have been possible to launch in about an hour from the call. So saying that it is still too late for an intercept. The biggest problem would have been persuading the Guard Room to hand out the keys!
All this without a herd of Duty Holders, Health and Safety Persons or a Diversity Advisor.
We heard nothing about a Hunter at the time. I strongly suspect it is all fiction.

[BEagle]

Tengah Type , the only Hunters at RNAS Brawdy in 1969 would have been a few T8s and some GA11s. The GA11 wasn't fitted with guns and the T8 had but a single gun which would have had to have been loaded manually rather than by fitting a gun pack.

Given the distance from Brawdy to the last known location of the C-130, an even earlier take-off time would have been required than from RAF Chivenor. Communications at Brawdy were rather primitive; even when I was there in 1975-6 the internal exchange was still manual - you had to lift the receiver and wait for Jones-the-phone to answer, then request the extension...

Fitting a loaded gun pack to a Chivenor Hunter simply wouldn't have been feasible in the time available.

I always thought that station call-outs in the early hours were fairly straightforward affairs. To cause true chaos, initiate the call-out at around 07:45 - 08:15! Or at 17:30 on a Friday. I once ran a Mineval at Wattisham; the first inject was a 'disaffected airman' who'd been 'blackmailed' to bring an IED into the COC in one of those scruffy little sports bag things everyone used (and which were never searched). But he was such a miserable sod that it took around 10 minutes before anyone noticed his unusual behaviour - I watched the resulting chaos with much amusement as the boltholing staff collided with people still responding to the call-out.

[nipva]

Tengah Type I think that you are being very optimistic with your reaction times and having a bunch of sleepy disgruntled armourers at the line 'in a few minutes' is unrealistic. I would say at least 30' from initially rounding them up and that would in itself be remarkable. As to the ready-prepped gunpacks, these would have been loaded with practice rounds i.e. ball and from what I recall from my time at Chivenor and Brawdy only two guns were ever pre-loaded. Even in those days where the words Health & Safety were yet to be thought up, it is inconceivable to me that, in peacetime, gunpacks would have been stored with HE ammunition as a matter of course. However, someone better placed may correct me.

All in all, taking into account the time of day, the chain of command, the ancient comms system and human reaction times, I cannot see a Chivenor Hunter being ready in less than an hour from the first moment that the US called for help even if they did so which is open to question. By this time the horse had well and truly bolted..

[MPN11]

I always thought that station call-outs in the early hours were fairly straightforward affairs. To cause true chaos, initiate the call-out at around 07:45 - 08:15! .... I watched the resulting chaos with much amusement as the boltholing staff collided with people still responding to the call-out.
Yes, we did one at Waddington around normal 'start work'. Similar traffic mayhem as some people tried to get their cars off-site whilst others were still trying to get in. It slowed down generation considerably!

[Wander00]

Best was Binbrook in 1961, the team arrived at about 1220, SWO saw a line of black cars coming down the main drag to SHQ and said "Didn't thing there was a funeral today. Oh (expletive deleted) It's Taceval!" And it was, a Pt 1 allegedly designed to catch a certain stn cdr. In fact the team pulled together and did very well. Memorable day as when it finished about 2100 I got a call to say Mum had suffered another stroke and I made it to Mt Vernon Hospital Northwood in under 3 hours and she died 10 mins after I got there.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Tengah Type I think that you are being very optimistic with your reaction times and having a bunch of sleepy disgruntled armourers at the line 'in a few minutes' is unrealistic. I would say at least 30' from initially rounding them up and that would in itself be remarkable. As to the ready-prepped gunpacks, these would have been loaded with practice rounds i.e. ball and from what I recall from my time at Chivenor and Brawdy only two guns were ever pre-loaded. Even in those days where the words Health & Safety were yet to be thought up, it is inconceivable to me that, in peacetime, gunpacks would have been stored with HE ammunition as a matter of course. However, someone better placed may correct me.

All in all, taking into account the time of day, the chain of command, the ancient comms system and human reaction times, I cannot see a Chivenor Hunter being ready in less than an hour from the first moment that the US called for help even if they did so which is open to question. By this time the horse had well and truly bolted..

Back in the late 1950's/early '60's it was common practice to have aircraft(Hunter F6) armed with ball ammo but gun fuses removed from aircraft over night this happened when early morning Nordhorn range was to be used and something similar happened at Sylt. Normally in practice all four guns would be loaded but only two fused (two inners or two outers) The same situation could have existed at Chivenor where four aircraft would fire on one banner. So potentially four aircraft could have been ready to go in about 4 to 5 minutes. This is all conjecture mind but aircraft were certainly left armed over night in RAF Germany.

[MPN11]

... This is all conjecture mind but aircraft were certainly left armed over night in RAF Germany.Well, you did have a [cold] war going on on your doorstep!

[BEagle]

Indeed, MPN11 . I doubt whether the threat posed by Mebyon Kernow forces would have required Chivenor Hunters to be armed overnight with the gun fuses pulled.....

[Tengah Type]

Yes, of course I meant Chivenor. Confused myself with reading BEagle's post#28 about banging off tanks at Brawdy, as he is always banging on about his time there.
NIPVA #39 Disgruntled armourers? - never!!
DODGYOLDFART. This is more like the Airforce of that time that I remember. A lot could be acheived in a short time with a bit of good will.
In June 65, 45 Squadron was detached from Tengah to Labuan as Tengah runway was being rebuilt. We were stood down for the day with no kind of Standby requirement. So we obtained a couple of raiding craft and took them off to another island a few miles away for a day of snorkelling and Tiger drinking. At about 1630 a Whirlwind suddenly arrived ,piloted by the Sqn Cdr wearing a red beach shirt and flipflops, and landed two wheels on the beach. Out of the back jumps Sqn Ldr Ops in a blue beach shirt and flipflops to hand our Boss a signal. The Boss orders his crew. all in swimming costumes, into the helo and the rest of us to return to Labuan ASAP. We raced back finishing our beers as we went. When we hit the beach the Boss was there to order 4 crews to fly to Tengah ASAP with a fifth crew on the Rumble seats. We all climbed into/on one LWB Land Rover and drove to the airport. We put on Flying Suits over our swimming trunks, grabbed razors and toothbrushes and went to the aircraft as fast as we could. The first pair took off at 1730 with the other pair a few minutes later.. Landing back at Tengah on the Taxiway with the help of gooseneck flares. A few groundcrew were still at Tengah so they turned and armed the aircraft and we took up 30 minutes Standby in the crewroom.
The sudden flap was because HQ FEAF thought that the Indonesian missile firing boats might have a crack at HMS Eagle, and we were there to stop them if they did.
Three days later, in slow time, we returned to Labuan.

[BEagle]

Sorry, Tengah Type , but part of that tale is clearly bolleaux!

We raced back finishing our beers as we went.

Finishing your beer I can certainly believe - but you racing anywhere I simply cannot....:p

I was lucky enough to do TWU twice - i

[Tengah Type]

BEagle
I was referring to the speed of the boats. I was sitting down at the time.!
Cheeky sod. Any more of that and I might post a photo of "Dad Dancing" at Bermuda.!!

[Minnie Burner]

[QUOTE=BEagle;

I was lucky enough to do TWU twice - i[/QUOTE]

Surely it was 229 OCU the first time?

;)

[nipva]

Dodgyoldfart. ''So potentially four aircraft could have been ready to go in about 4 to 5 minutes. This is all conjecture mind but aircraft were certainly left armed over night in RAF Germany''
I am not doubting or gainsaying the overnight loading of gunpacks. The point that I was trying to make was that such preloaded gunpacks were only loaded with ball, not HE, and that I would have thought this alleged use of a Chivenor a/c would have required HE ammo.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Dodgyoldfart. ''So potentially four aircraft could have been ready to go in about 4 to 5 minutes. This is all conjecture mind but aircraft were certainly left armed over night in RAF Germany''
I am not doubting or gainsaying the overnight loading of gunpacks. The point that I was trying to make was that such preloaded gunpacks were only loaded with ball, not HE, and that I would have thought this alleged use of a Chivenor a/c would have required HE ammo.

I think you are missing the point @nipva Presumably the Hunters at Chivenor were there in a training capacity and would not be armed with HE ammo. Incidentally only 50 rounds per gun were normal loaded for range purposes. However even 10 hits with 30mm ball could do a hell of a lot of damage to a C130. Just one hit in an engine at 400m would likely wreck it.

Incidentally back in the day the most effective round fired from 20mm Hispano was the semi-armour piercing incendiary not the HE. This round retained enough energy to smash the block of the German Junkers Jumo 211 engine at 400 meters and would also penetrate the roof armour of the Panzer Mk 4 at a similar range.

Back in the 1950's in RAF Germany the Hunters normally flew with full gun packs of ball although the ammunition was not loaded into the guns ready to fire. During Battle Flight the ball was exchanged for HE and ready to fire.