Leaving BA for low cost

[Tricia Takanawa]

Hi,

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock. So I'm looking for anyone that has done the same, to basically try and find out if they regretted it. And anybody else with any insight that might be helpful.

Any help appreciated!

TT

[Jwscud]

There are a few junior A320 captains working their notice and going to EZY too.

No great surprise those in the LHS look shocked. It ain’t the junior long haul life they lived.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Not sure many will have done this. I was in the BA hold pool but decided last year to stay orange after moving right to left. For me, as a 7000 hour pilot and 10 years experience, it was the thought of reverting to two stripes and many years waiting for an upgrade in the BA seniority process that influenced my decision. I am not sure I would choose to leave though once I had started. I have no real interest in long haul at this stage but I do not know what the next 10 years might hold. In some ways the time to command in BA makes it a more valuable prize.

[wiggy]

In response to TT (the OP) and:


Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock

Just pointing out the perhaps obvious for anyone thinking of joining as a DEP on a Long Haul Fleet:

1. you are never going to get a quick upgrade on Long Haul,

and

2. Post joining type freeze means you aren’t going to be moving to a relatively fast upgrade fleet for a few years ...


There are a few junior A320 captains working their notice and going to EZY too.

No great surprise those in the LHS look shocked. It ain’t the junior long haul life they lived.




Frankly if anybody in the LHS at BA is shocked they are either acting or they need to pay a bit more attention to what is going on around them.

It is a commonly held POV that large parts of the rostering system formerly known as Bidline has been trashed and the consequences of that have really bitten this summer. Nobody in either seat, regardless of seniority, can make concrete plans for days off even a month ahead, outside of leave. You can have successfully bid for work that gets you above the CAP and even so still get an extra trip stuck on your line/line rejigged- in other words forced overtime (July seems to have been bloodbath on the 744)........and to add to the problems as we head towards some fairly important elections for Union reps the association is giving a fair impression of being in disarray.

[GS-Alpha]

it won’t be long and we’ll be seeing a lot more pilots leaving BA for other airlines.

[krismiler]

If the low cost life style suits you better then why not, but once you're there that's pretty much it as far as progression is concerned. The training department is the only step upward and it's not for everyone.

Lots of four sector days and early starts but mostly in your own bed at night, hard work and you will be tired but its a different kind of fatigue to long haul, back of the clock, multiple time zone changes.

Financially, a LCC will get you into the money seat sooner but the pay isn't usually as good as a legacy. An older applicant will do better in an LCC as by the time he upgrades at a legacy airline he hasn't got too many years in the Captains chair until retirement, a younger applicant will do better in a legacy as he will have more years on premium pay to make up for the longer upgrade time.

Horses for courses.

[TowerDog]

I tried both.
As a young stud I did long hauls and more long hauls, 30-40 hour duty days, around the world, crazy stuff.
Did 24 years of it, then started short-haul, or turns as we say here in the colonies: MIA-STT-MIA and similar.
I really liked to be home every day to wife and dog, sleep good then do it again next day. More time on the road driving to the airport, but got a good car and a subscription to satellite radio with the comedy channels. Figured that would be as much fun as I had all day and loved it.
Did the occasional long haul, like MIA-MAD, or CDG but got tired of being tired, back to short haul.
(on the 757/767 fleet you can do both and change every week or every month, perhaps same with BA?)

[Iver]

Hi,

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock. So I'm looking for anyone that has done the same, to basically try and find out if they regretted it. And anybody else with any insight that might be helpful.

Any help appreciated!

TT

Just curious because opinions can differ, but what about life on the 747 fleet at BA is better or worse than life on other fleets like the 777 and 787? Is it longhaul Flying in general or specifically life on the 747 fleet that is objectionable (ie changing layovers, contracting number of routes, specific schedules, etc.)?

[wiggy]

Might be one for a current 747 pilot to answer - in the mean time obviously (?) the 747 Fleet is seeing a gradual reduction in “plum” destinations but it has still got some good ones. One even ended up in SIN last month as “sub” for the 380!!!!

OTOH all the Longhaul Fleets are seeing some uncertainty and last minute plan changes due to the 787 engine issue.

As for Longhaul life at BA in general - TBH I am increasingly of the opinion that many will find the model BA seem to be aiming for and one which BALPA seem to less and less able to moderate will be one that is unsustainable over a full time, multi decade career. A single person with minimal commitments outside work who additionally never gets a cold or flu might manage.....for mere mortals with families, especially young ones I have my doubts.

[BAP]

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade

I am not sure how long you have been in BA, but many find the first few years hell. I nearly left to go to EK.
I am now 75% part time to make my work life balance bearable. However I do not think that LC would be any easier than BA SH/LH unless you get a based where you live. Not necessarily an easy thing to achieve. I have conssideded that myself.

But regardless make sure to think long term. What do you want in 10 years time and how do the T&C compare with LC when you get there.
If you hang in there on the 747 until your freeze is up, you’d be almost guaranteed to get a A320 command at LGW. Do 6-12 months and then move to LC.
At least you have your command time and you’ll have many more options.

I know people who have chased quick commands, and it has rarely worked out, due to empty promises or unexpected downturn etc.

Just my opinion. ATB with whatever you choose to do :)

[RexBanner]

Re the SH Captains working their notice, I believe there are many more seriously looking around given many of the discussions I have had over the past year. I’m led to believe also that the latest recruitment campaign has not been as oversubscribed as it has been in the past. Perfect storm coming of people leaving and recruits not so much drying up perhaps but certainly not plentiful. Maybe this will wake Cruz and Walsh up to the fact that the constant attack on Ts & Cs is having real detrimental effects and will do in the future.

(Wouldn’t hold my breath though)

[skyflyer737]

Hi,

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock. So I'm looking for anyone that has done the same, to basically try and find out if they regretted it. And anybody else with any insight that might be helpful.

Any help appreciated!

TT

Hi Trica

I left the 747 at BA to go back to low cost. Haven't regretted it for a minute. Feel free to PM me if you want any more info. Good luck. It's a massive decision to make but for me it worked out well. Everyone is different depending on their circumstances.

[tommytailwind]

I also jumped ship from the Queen of the Skies at BA to head to low cost shorthaul. People were shocked - I even shocked myself - but in hindsight I’m a whole load happier. The reality is I should never have gone to BA in the first place but I’m still glad I tried it.

Edited to say I completely agree with Wiggy and planning my life at BA was nigh on impossible and work basically rules your life unless you have leave / duty free week etc planned. For those single chaps / chapesses it’s fine but for those of us with family commitments I find the low cost roster (although still tiring) way better. Having a command also makes work far more enjoyable.

I did think about BAP’s idea of bidding for an LGW command after initial type freeze was up (5 years) but then thought why wait 5 years for something I already had at easyJet? Money is not the be-all and end-all but the financial incentives also stacked up being LHS low cost.

Best of luck in your decision making!

[Tricia Takanawa]

Thank you for all of the info, including the PM's! Its nice to know that I'm not nuts considering it.

BAP, I've been in just shy of 3 years. Funny you should mention EK, as I did consider that option, then read the Middle East forums :eek:

[tommytailwind]

Thank you for all of the info, including the PM's! Its nice to know that I'm not nuts considering it.

BAP, I've been in just shy of 3 years. Funny you should mention EK, as I did consider that option, then read the Middle East forums :eek:

You’re not nuts at all. Anyone who suggests you are needs to wake up to the world outside BA, as Wiggy has alluded to.

[G SXTY]

Having done UK regional flying, the sandpit, and now BA LH, I – personally – find BA the easiest of the three. That said, it probably helps being on the 787, as everyone else is doing our flying for us. :)

Also, I don’t mind working weekends and am in a position where I can prioritise lifestyle over cash or command, so I’m quite content in the RHS. I quite understand that others will have different priorities, for all sorts of reasons. But like what Wiggy said:
many will find the model BA seem to be aiming for and one which BALPA seem to less and less able to moderate will be one that is unsustainable over a full time, multi decade career.I couldn’t agree more. Being late to the party, I’ve got a maximum 20 year career with BA, but I can’t imagine being full time until retirement – part time is the only way to make the job work long-term. One could ask whether it would be any different in low cost short haul? If not, I’d suggest the workload / sustainability issue is an industry wide problem, and not restricted to BA.

[GS-Alpha]

My take on it is BA is now very much just another airline, and the full time job has pretty much become unsustainable for an entire career, particularly since the introduction of EASA FTLs. Life expectancy will seriously reduce for anyone who attempts it. Part time is the way forward, and once you’re going down that route, you’re looking more and more at lifestyle choices, and being based at Heathrow is not one of the better lifestyle choices. I’ll have been in for 20 years by the time I get my first command, but once I have sufficient command hours, I’ll be looking very seriously at other airlines. Working for BA has drained the life out of me. I’m constantly bewildered by anyone who leaves another airline to join up. I don’t think outsiders appreciate just how weak, and indeed actively damaging, BALPA within BA is. Our decline at the hands of the current BACC has exceeded all expectations.

[Max Angle]

Our decline at the hands of the current BACC has exceeded all expectations.
I suspect it has exceeded even the companies expectations.

[BASHLH]

LC even admits on Yammer that DEP’s are signing or being offered contracts to start & then turning them down! Quite simply we’re not the only/best gig in town... However long may it continue... the only way things will improve is if people stop coming!

‘Part of the CAP pressure has also been down to some DEPs signing contracts with us, and then withdrawing, for various reasons’

[Stone Cold II]

I’m in the land of Orange LHS. We have a bid preference that so far is working really well for me. I asked for all 2 sector days for July, all my duties are 2 sectors apart from 2 days and a good portion of my 2 sectors are short days, Edi and back etc. Really made a difference to how tired I feel, regional base so my winter was rather quiet and so far touch wood my summer as been steady.

Paywise you can look at it in two ways, yes, BA will have a higher salary but how long will it take to reach it? If you actually get that far? EZY basic CPT is 105k alone, add on sector pay, loyalty bonus (15%) after 10 years, share awards, performance bonus. It all adds up and you’ll be earning much more quicker than at BA.

Depends what you want, like your own bed and wish to see your kids or live on the continent, don’t think you can do better than EZY. Want to see the world on someone’s expense, BA it is.

Regional base with EZY is a brilliant gig overall, not perfect but no job is.

[BizJetJockey]

Excellent thread...how do the benefits stack up at somewhere like EZY compared to BA? Medical/Dental /loss of licence etc. Obviously staff travel is completely different so that’s not really part of the question. Thanks

[Stone Cold II]

You get loss of licence. There is a benefits page and every year you select what benefits you want, some are dental, health, childcare, increase loss of licence. Some of the options allows you to make a saving on taxes.

Private health care care has been spoken about, tried to use it as a bargaining chip on the last pay deal but it was rejected. It poor that EZY still doesn’t off this to all employees, think it’s the only U.K. airline that doesn’t include private health in its standard package.

[wiggy]

LC even admits on Yammer that DEP’s are signing or being offered contracts to start & then turning them down!


Well spotted, I wonder if Yammer will accept a link to pprune :E

Sadly LC is but a small cog in a big machine.

[speed freek]

Regional base with EZY is a brilliant gig overall, not perfect but no job is.


For balance, if the OP were to join today, how long would he or she be waiting for that regional base? Be prepared to spend many a year at LGW where things aren't so rosy.

[Cmon-PullUP]

For balance, if the OP were to join today, how long would he or she be waiting for that regional base? Be prepared to spend many a year at LGW where things aren't so rosy.

Depends on the base you want. Most start out where the need is for the company, and then sign up on the transfer lists. However, there are still choices + Ezy is fairly easy commuting wise if you need that. LGW is not all that bad as some claim - I certainly enjoyed my years there.

I am now a LHS commuter on a 71% contract, or a 7/7 as it is called. In real life it often works out as a 5/9 or 6/8 roster. (yes often 9 days off ;) )

Would not even swap this for a direct entry CMD into a 744 if offered.

[whitemonk]

I'm an experienced Boeing SFO at another UK airline (the red and silver one) and would love a European base, particularly PMI... is there any chance easy will get rid of or lower the type rating cost as that is a major barrier to me applying?

[Stone Cold II]

For balance, if the OP were to join today, how long would he or she be waiting for that regional base? Be prepared to spend many a year at LGW where things aren't so rosy.

My base very very popular and everyone who has got a command over the past 18 months has come straight back to base amazingly.

[737 Jockey]

Depends on the base you want. Most start out where the need is for the company, and then sign up on the transfer lists. However, there are still choices + Ezy is fairly easy commuting wise if you need that. LGW is not all that bad as some claim - I certainly enjoyed my years there.

I am now a LHS commuter on a 71% contract, or a 7/7 as it is called. In real life it often works out as a 5/9 or 6/8 roster. (yes often 9 days off ;) )

Would not even swap this for a direct entry CMD into a 744 if offered.


I don’t blame you, sounds great!

How easy is it to get part time roster generally in the U.K. but specifically at LGW? Also, is that a fixed pattern or FRV?

Cheers! ��

[Tricia Takanawa]

Thanks for all of the info. Lots of great stuff.

RE EZY. I would be looking at LGW or LTN. Could anyone provide a few typical early and late rotations that one could expect. And am I right in thinking around 18ths to 2 years currently for a cmd?

Also, considering the other Low Cost airlines. Does anyone have any good info on Wizz Air? Ryanair only seem to recruit 737 rated FO's unless you want a Sicily base. Is this correct?

Thanks again for all the great input.

[VJW]

I'm an experienced Boeing SFO

So a Senior senior first officer
;)

[GKOC41]

My take on it is BA is now very much just another airline, and the full time job has pretty much become unsustainable for an entire career, particularly since the introduction of EASA FTLs. Life expectancy will seriously reduce for anyone who attempts it. Part time is the way forward, and once you’re going down that route, you’re looking more and more at lifestyle choices, and being based at Heathrow is not one of the better lifestyle choices. I’ll have been in for 20 years by the time I get my first command, but once I have sufficient command hours, I’ll be looking very seriously at other airlines. Working for BA has drained the life out of me. I’m constantly bewildered by anyone who leaves another airline to join up. I don’t think outsiders appreciate just how weak, and indeed actively damaging, BALPA within BA is. Our decline at the hands of the current BACC has exceeded all expectations.

GS

Gissa clue then what parts of EASA FTL will cause life expectancy to drop. In many parts EASA FTL is similar to Sub Part Q which was deployed in Europe for years and years.
Is it the old factorisation of flights over 7 hours in CAP371 something that was introduced when Flight Engineers left the cockpit......

[Enzo999]

Interesting thread. Just out of interest this argument only exists because of the existence of DEC and “rapid commands” at the LCCs. The reasons for this are two fold, high turn over of staff and rapid growth. Is it reasonable to expect these two things to continue? We have already estabilished that terms and conditions etc are equal to or better than the legacy rivals so why would people leave? Furthermore how much more expansion can these companies accommodate, between Easy and Ryan they must have close to 1000 airframes and post Brexit will this/ can this contine?

I am just wondering if it was possible for some to jump ship to Easy then sudenly find themselves tapped in the RHS for 10 years, then this whole argument becomes extremely different! Plus is basing an issue, to my mind there is no point in taking a command if it means having to live in a different country to you wife and children.

Like many I have been extremely disillusioned by my experience of joining BA and have often pondered about jumping ship, but this fear of the above somehow always puts me off.

[Buter]

GK - Have you seen what’s actually possible under EASA? It’s only our industrial agreements (which are being constantly chipped away at) stopping long haul from becoming absolutely miserable. Brakes on at 0500 from JNB and report at 1800 for JFK? Sure, why not... No more 4 crew trips? No problem...

Our flat earthers are subject to full EASA limits -30 minutes. I assure you they are not happy about it and those without much time invested in our precious seniority list have left/will leave/are considering their options.

Cheers

Buter

[Denti]

Interesting thread. Just out of interest this argument only exists because of the existence of DEC and “rapid commands” at the LCCs. The reasons for this are two fold, high turn over of staff and rapid growth. Is it reasonable to expect these two things to continue? We have already estabilished that terms and conditions etc are equal to or better than the legacy rivals so why would people leave? Furthermore how much more expansion can these companies accommodate, between Easy and Ryan they must have close to 1000 airframes and post Brexit will this/ can this contine?

I am just wondering if it was possible for some to jump ship to Easy then sudenly find themselves tapped in the RHS for 10 years, then this whole argument becomes extremely different! Plus is basing an issue, to my mind there is no point in taking a command if it means having to live in a different country to you wife and children.

Like many I have been extremely disillusioned by my experience of joining BA and have often pondered about jumping ship, but this fear of the above somehow always puts me off.

Yes, once a market is saturated LCCs will have to adjust and grow slower or not at all. However, Europe is far away from that at the moment. Easy for example has only bases in one city in germany, the biggest economy in the EU, apart from that they are present in switzerland (different company though), the UK of course as their main market, spain, france italy and a bit of spain and the netherlands. Nothing in eastern europe or northern europe. There is still a lot of expansion to be done in the markets they are in already, not to mention those they are not in yet. It is going to get harder though, as of course other LCCs did spring up in those markets with Norwegian and Wizzair. Ryanair on the other hand is already present in more markets, but there is still a lot of expansion to be done as well. Easy is currently at around 300 airframes and will probably reach 330 to 360 airframes at the end of the calendar year. Ryanair has something like 440 airframes and will most likely add quite a few frames this year as well.

Compare that to the US with close to 1000 planes in total between southwest and jet blue, not to mention the other ones, in a home market with something like 330 million customers, vs around 500 million in the EU alone, not to mention the other european states or even northern africa which is in range of narrowbody aircraft.

[skyflyer737]

Interesting thread. Just out of interest this argument only exists because of the existence of DEC and “rapid commands” at the LCCs. The reasons for this are two fold, high turn over of staff and rapid growth. Is it reasonable to expect these two things to continue? We have already estabilished that terms and conditions etc are equal to or better than the legacy rivals so why would people leave? Furthermore how much more expansion can these companies accommodate, between Easy and Ryan they must have close to 1000 airframes and post Brexit will this/ can this contine?

I am just wondering if it was possible for some to jump ship to Easy then sudenly find themselves tapped in the RHS for 10 years, then this whole argument becomes extremely different! Plus is basing an issue, to my mind there is no point in taking a command if it means having to live in a different country to you wife and children.

Like many I have been extremely disillusioned by my experience of joining BA and have often pondered about jumping ship, but this fear of the above somehow always puts me off.

Ryanair have around 445 to 450 aircraft at the moment, going to 550 shortly with their 200 orders. Plan after that is close to 1000 aircraft in total going into the next decade and I see no reason why they won’t get there. So in my view, yes, the expansion will continue if they can get the pilots. A few Capts currently leaving for China, Jet2 & Easy and FOs mainly heading to Norwegian. The odd one here and there to legacy airlines such as BA & Air France and a handful to TUI.

In my view, the expansion will very much continue and the pressure on Ryanair to keep the salaries competitve will be high.

[BluSdUp]

And now, that Lufthansa is going to buy Norwegian, BA is going to struggle even more.
Mind You anyone with BA experience will be a shoe-in at Norwegian LH !
Good time to change!

[student88]

Hmm, a lot of sh1t stirring here and firing about of fake news.

I know of one guy who has left for a DEC A330 job in China but he commutes from NYC, he was a junior captain on the A320.

A few people have turned down courses but they've also been sat in the hold pool for almost 2 years, if BA offered them contracts straight away I guess it would have been a different story.

[Enzo999]

And now, that Lufthansa is going to buy Norwegian, BA is going to struggle even more.
Mind You anyone with BA experience will be a shoe-in at Norwegian LH !
Good time to change!

Not even sure where to begin with this! BA is no great place to work but tell me just how they are “struggling”?

[wiggy]

Hmm, a lot of sh1t stirring here and firing about of fake news.

....A few people have turned down courses but they've also been sat in the hold pool for almost 2 years, if BA offered them contracts straight away I guess it would have been a different story.

I’m sure that is true in some cases but not always. I know of at least one individual from the DEP pool who turned down a longhaul slot at BA because he got what he considered a more attractive offer from a LoCo ..... I believe the polite “thanks but no thanks” came as a bit of a shock in the office.

[BluSdUp]

Enzo
My mistake, BA is doing great.

And , Yes LH is looking at Norwegian. seriously.

[speed freek]

Depends on the base you want. Most start out where the need is for the company, and then sign up on the transfer lists. However, there are still choices + Ezy is fairly easy commuting wise if you need that. LGW is not all that bad as some claim - I certainly enjoyed my years there.

I am now a LHS commuter on a 71% contract, or a 7/7 as it is called. In real life it often works out as a 5/9 or 6/8 roster. (yes often 9 days off ;) )

Would not even swap this for a direct entry CMD into a 744 if offered.


I didn't realise 7/7 was on the UK contract. That's a good roster pattern to get and might have changed my decision to leave.

[Cmon-PullUP]

I didn't realise 7/7 was on the UK contract. That's a good roster pattern to get and might have changed my decision to leave.

I am not on a UK contract, but a eminent contract in Northern Europe. TBH, even if Ezy opened a base right on my door step, I would still continue to commute. Some of our contracts are really good for family life, and mine is one of these :ok:

I have heard rumours though, that UK is going to have new part time contracts in the near future, so a 7/7 might (??) be coming as well.

[RexBanner]

Norwegian are a failing business, bums on seats does not translate to profit and Norwegian despite high load factors are massively unprofitable. The oil price is doing them no favours either at the moment and it will be very interesting to see what happens after next winter. Lufthansa are only trying to push the price up for IAG. Long Haul Low Cost doesn’t work, tried and tested.

Norwegian are inviting offers now for one reason and one reason only, they know time is running out.

[speed freek]

I am not on a UK contract, but a eminent contract in Northern Europe. TBH, even if Ezy opened a base right on my door step, I would still continue to commute. Some of our contracts are really good for family life, and mine is one of these :ok:

I have heard rumours though, that UK is going to have new part time contracts in the near future, so a 7/7 might (??) be coming as well.

Until the agreement is in place rumours aren't worth a great deal. PBS took a long time to come.

Thanks for the info but to me nothing has changed. The northern UK bases are still dead man's shoes, London bases still overworked and no 7/7.

I'll stick to my 4 trips a month with the blue team :ok:

[AndyDRHuddleston]

Rexbanner.....

Long Haul low cost doesn't work???? I beg to disagree Sir. If you take a look at the many airlines (some Legacy) around the world that now offer this, I think you may be surprised. JAL to be the latest I believe.

....as for the comments regarding Norwegian, don't believe all that you read.

[RexBanner]

Rexbanner.....

Long Haul low cost doesn't work???? I beg to disagree Sir. If you take a look at the many airlines (some Legacy) around the world that now offer this, I think you may be surprised. JAL to be the latest I believe.

....as for the comments regarding Norwegian, don't believe all that you read.

Offering unbundled fares and being a fully fledged LCC are two very different things. Of course BA don’t like Norwegian taking away customers, it effects the bottom line. One thing we know about the management at IAG is they are as greedy as they come, even if they’re taking away one penny they’ll fight that competitor to take it back. BA and others can do it because they have a proper premium product, unlike Norwegian who have premium economy at best.

[byrondaf]

Thanks for all of the info. Lots of great stuff.

RE EZY. I would be looking at LGW or LTN. Could anyone provide a few typical early and late rotations that one could expect. And am I right in thinking around 18ths to 2 years currently for a cmd?

2/3 years for command for direct entry, but command process takes 2 years and think you have to wait 6 months before entering the process.

Earlies are a combination of nice 2 sector days, mostly reporting at 5/6am and off duty about 1/2pm. Some long 4 sector earlies and some short 2 sectors about too. Lates tend to be less predictable and expect your roster to change somewhat each week during summer.Some are lucky, others are not. Deep nights finishing at 2/3am are common on lates, BALPA doing a lot of work trying to get rid of the max FDP duty days. LGW and LTN standby used frequently to cover the rest of the network so expect a few out of base trips, especially captains.

Pay is pretty good for captains and if you join as an SFO it is £71k inc sector pay. No incremental pay rise but new pay deals every few years. Not a perfect place to work but look after yourself and home every night in a secure job, there are definitely worse gigs around. best of luck if you decide to join!

[button push ignored]

Hi,

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock. So I'm looking for anyone that has done the same, to basically try and find out if they regretted it. And anybody else with any insight that might be helpful.

Any help appreciated!

TT
British Airways is just another airline.
Once Alex Cruz, Willie Walsh and Bjorn Kjos are through.
British Airways could be just another low cost carrier.
Good for the board, alright for the share holders, but lousy for the employees.
Jumping ship my be ‘out of the frying pan, and into the fire’.

youtube has the answer you maybe looking for.
Look up the Hounslow sound of the late 1970s.
Scissor Fits “I don’t want to work for British Airways”.
It could be your new theme tune.

[Cmon-PullUP]

One major thing with Easyjet: The finances are good. Even if the next volcano erupts on Iceland, if there is a another terror attack or something else happens to the industry, that would put most other airlines in the financial danger zone, Easyjet is still one of the most secure employers around. Operations can be at a complete standstill for 4 months before money starts to run dry.
For someone with a family to support, this counts for a lot as well.

[Doppio]

Hi,

Im seriously contemplating leaving BA 747 to go to low cost short haul for a quick upgrade, but most people that I speak to look back in shock. So I'm looking for anyone that has done the same, to basically try and find out if they regretted it. And anybody else with any insight that might be helpful.

Any help appreciated!

TT
Well, I've done exactly that; left BA B744 recently after just two years for a command at Ryanair and so far am very happy. Doubled my salary for the same amount of work... and a fixed schedule to boot. No JSS aka Junior Shafting System for me :-)

[GKOC41]

GK - Have you seen what’s actually possible under EASA? It’s only our industrial agreements (which are being constantly chipped away at) stopping long haul from becoming absolutely miserable. Brakes on at 0500 from JNB and report at 1800 for JFK? Sure, why not... No more 4 crew trips? No problem...

Our flat earthers are subject to full EASA limits -30 minutes. I assure you they are not happy about it and those without much time invested in our precious seniority list have left/will leave/are considering their options.

Cheers

Buter
Hi Buter
Yes seen what's possible under EASA but most UK AOC I know worked hard and responsibly as did the Unions with scheduling agreements to filter out the few concerns they had.
Not sure what you mean by flat earthers sorry. My question is how many times do you work to the limits of EASA. How many times have you operated JNB min rest JFK. How many colleagues commute in before they work these trips it can't all be one way traffic

[Buter]

Hi GK

Flat earthers = Shorthaul/narrowbody/domestic depending on your location. A320 multi sector day operations.

I don't currently work to the limits of EASA, and I neither wish nor intend to. Ever. As stated, my shorthaul colleagues are subject to full EASA -30 minutes, sadly negotiated by our union during one of the seemingly endless cost cutting campaigns. I’m not exactly sure what it means, but I do know they’re not happy bunnies about it.

We can’t operate the JNB/JFK sector I alluded to due to our contracts. It is possible under EASA, however. This shows exactly how much thought went into their FTL calculations. Back to back GRU or MIA totally unacceptable... except when the local times are 4 hours or less time change from London, then it’s fine. Yeah... makes sense.

As as far as I know, nobody lives in the terminal (although I feel like I do at times), so everybody commutes in. I assume you mean by air? Do you include MAN/GLA/EDI/NCL crew in that lot? Jersey? Do you just mean crew that fly in from long distances like Australia or Texas (the crew residences of the last flight I operated)?

The answer is, I don’t know. I’ve never worked with a long distance commuter who flew in on the day, then operated (with one exception). Commuting is a personal responsibility. I really don’t care, tbh. Show up to work in good enough shape to do the flight is all I expect. Occasionally life gets in the way of that for commuters and locals alike.

My my response to you was just to highlight that my colleague’s comment about the EASA FTL scheme having a negative impact on our lives is valid.

Cheers

Buter

[bex88]

Tricia, hi. Having looked at this and nearly left myself I decided to stay. My circumstances will be different but a quick command is a reality in BA. You’re 3 years in, maybe only 1 year of your freeze left. If you go to EZY it will probably be Gatwick and a longer time to command. Maybe talk to LC reference a Gatwick airbus command? It would be reasonable to say you could have a Gatwick command within two years and then be back at LHR a year later. I am LHS and the only thing that’s bad is rostering and the pay is not that special but the gap is closing. BA is not the best, it’s not the worst but it can offer change as your life changes. If you want SH command and are happy with that as a career (many are) then I think LCC are a much better option.

[pitotheat]

When comparing pay between eJ and BA take in to account many eJ Captains go part time after a few years to address work/life and fatigue issues. I don’t know if that is such an issue at BA.

[wiggy]

When comparing pay between eJ and BA take in to account many eJ Captains go part time after a few years to address work/life and fatigue issues. I don’t know if that is such an issue at BA.





Oh yes it very much is an issue at BA......I'm sure somebody will be along in a minute to give you a BA (especially shorthaul) POV on fatigue/lifestyle/EASA FTLs as implemented there. They might also mention BA has (apparently unlike Easyjet) a really P Poor fatigue montioring system ("ah but by bidding for that line of work with that trip on it, and thereby volunteering to do it, it can't be fatiguing..)..

There's the additional problem at BA of actually getting approval to go PT because doing so seemingly interferes with the business plan.

[pitotheat]

Interesting wiggy I hadn’t realised fatigue and going part time were such issues in BA. Sad that lifestyle and sustainable rostering are under constant threat everywhere. Is this an issue on both SH and LH?

[wiggy]

Can’t speak directly for SH but from what I hear from credible sources it can be nasty.

My very much a personal take on Longhaul - some of the immediate problem is that the 787 engine issues have loaded up rosters on the 777 and the 744....., fair enough, sometimes these things happen...but it’s not just hours flown this summer that is causing problems. There are problems with “interesting” trip constructions and probably above all the big big issue is the major loss of lifestyle control, especially days off, that has happened as the rostering system has morphed into something that is less and less under pilot control and more and more under company control. This has happened and we’ve not even moved to the new rostering system (JSS) yet, we are still officially working to Bidline Rules (stop laughing at the back). TBH and IMHO the only way to get some element of control back and some semblance of a normal life is one of the part time contracts, because at least on one of those you have some supposedly degree of control/predictability over guaranteed days off..full time outside of leave you now have not a lot...but I emphasise that is IMVHO....

[RexBanner]

Depends where you put the gap on your roster though, Wiggy (certainly as regards to SH). If it’s at the beginning of the month then, yes, you are right in line for an FA because that’s where the hotspots of uncovered work are. Leave the gap until later in the month and generally speaking you are safe. I’ve bid below cap and not got FA’d because I’ve had my gap later on whereas someone three hours above cap has got FA’d instead of me because theirs was at a weekend at the start of the month. End of July I’ve got a six day block of days off before my wrap days and leave start at the beginning of August, again untouched by FA. So you can still have control it just depends where you want to take some time off, although I will freely concede that by its very nature means it’s reduced control.

By the way anyone feeling fatigued on SH right now should bid for reserve. Done virtually nothing so far and I’m entering the final week!

(Aware I’ve probably just blown my cover of anonymity for anyone taking a quick glance at iBid!)

[wiggy]

If it’s at the beginning of the month then, yes, you are right in line for an FA because that’s where the hotspots of uncovered work are. Leave the gap until later in the month and generally speaking you are safe.

Safer, sure, safe? not from what I’ve seen on LH but as we’ve drifted into Bidline tactics we are probably way off topic....the new joiners best just think JSS, optimisation (where you’ll never know that at one point in the process you actually had a roster with the days off you wanted/needed but then a trip got slotted in) and the fight to get Golden days........

[bex88]

What about not bidding with JSS. It must then look at everyone else first and build their roster. It then gets to you and can not compute. You bid for nothing so you can have what I have left which is limited so have some Tass. That’s my hope anyway. Rex our cover was blown long ago.

[Ollie Onion]

I did it, left a relatively senior FO position at BA to work for a low cost carrier in another part of the world. There is no easy answer to your question, I left for family reasons and have never regretted doing this to spend more time at home (less night stops) etc. I do however really miss BA, you are looked after very very well there, if I had been able to stay at BA whilst making the family situation work out I would have done that. I got a very rapid command in my new airline and now check and train as well, in my opinion I wouldn’t swap airlines if your only motivating factor is time to command, being in the Left hand seat is good but in no way outweighs what you would be giving up. BA training, bidding and contract are still of a very high standard and your months and years of seniority are hard earned and can never be gained back. Think of the overall picture as well, my mates at Easy find little things annoying like no staff travel outside of Easyjet, inability to experience Longhaul etc.

[hunterboy]

Bex88 , sadly, I’m not sure JSS works like that. I think it will try to get you to your credit range...CAP+/- x, and so will take trips off people above you to drag up your credit and lower theirs slightly. I fear a homogenous mess, unless the rules are tweaked to allow more variations. All this talk of bidding restrictions makes me think it will end up being an autorostering system sold to us on the basis of “fairness”.

[wiggy]

Bex88 , sadly, I’m not sure JSS works like that. I think it will try to get you to your credit range...CAP+/- x, and so will take trips off people above you to drag up your credit and lower theirs slightly.

That’s exactly how I read it: If you don’t bid at all you’ll be one of a number caught up in one of the backstop processes (I hesitate to use fallback or repair ‘cos they have specific meanings) and trips from the junior guys (at that stage hidden) rosters will go back in the blender and be spread around to get everybody into the target credit hours range if at all possible...if there is an equivalent of “Blindline TASS” I get the impression that will migrate higher up the seniority list than it does at the moment.

Whatever happens, however it is done, I don’t think the most junior bod can hope to nil bid and then sit at home on TASS.

[vrb03kt]

Very interesting topic, thanks to those contributing.

Just wondering how long a new joining long haul DEP could reasonably expect to wait to achieve part time?

[NLP]

It depends on what kind of part time you go for. There are a few options. "Right to request" and "Aspirational". And then there are different options within those.

Standing by to be corrected, but:

- Aspirational (I want it): You bid for this annually and you "might" get it. Not sure how long this takes
- Right to request (I need it): Normally within 9 to 12 months (depending on which fleet you're on and if they have enough pilots to cover the work)

I've requested the RTR version recently for childcare and have been told to expect a result next year.

edit: “Just to clarify for people wondering after NLP’s comments, Right to Request can now be for any reason/person, it is not the sole preserve of parents.” (Thanks Rex)

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Forgive me if I repeat some things that I may have said elsewhere, but I will give you my input on the subject matter for those that are interested. I am a TRE at easyJet and have worked there for nearly 15 years. It is, overall, a great place to be. You can argue contracts, countries to live in, perks, management failings etc, etc. If you take it as read that both BA and easyJet are fundamentally safe airlines with healthy balance sheets, then we can move on to the key points that separate them.

Arguments for BA -

1. Opportunities to fly different aircraft types.
2. Mix of long haul/short haul as you wish.
3. Seniority bringing great advantages as the years go by - once lost those advantages can never be recovered.
4. Pay increments every year.
5. Stable rostering, if you want it - easyJet has more roster instability, particularly at the big bases like Gatwick.
6. Great staff travel.
7. Generally well treated by management (although some BA pilots may argue differently!).

Arguments for easyJet.

1. Preferential bidding - ie you ask for earlies/lates and generally speaking get what you ask for (unless you are a training captain!).
2. Fixed-pattern rostering - 5/3/5/4 so you know your off days years in advance.
3. Quick time to command.
4. Good starting salary for captains (£104750 plus allowances, 7% pension contribution, performance bonuses, sector pay, loyalty bonus (incremental pay in all but name).
5. Very few night stops.
6. Opportunity to live and work in numerous bases across Europe.

Of all of these, there is really one stand-out difference that anyone comparing easyJet and BA should consider - night stops. At easyJet you get home most nights and at BA you do not. Arguably that is the biggest single factor in any decision to be in easyJet against BA. I personally love coming home every night to my family and therefore BA has always been a complete non-starter for me. I fully appreciate that is not everyone's position, but it is most definitely mine. If you join BA at, say, 25 years old, you will be there for 40 years. You could conceivably spend 20 of those years not sleeping in your own bed - that simply is not what I want. In the final analysis, I would say that is the key distinctive about whether or not to make the leap. It is a one-way move from BA to easyJet and only a handful of pilots have done it, which tells its own story. BA has so much to offer, but if you want to be home a lot then easyJet has got it. If that is not your main issue, my advice would be to sit back at BA and enjoy the numerous other great advantages of flying for one of the world's top airlines.

[Tricia Takanawa]

Thats a great summary Count. Thanks for the input.

And thanks everyone else for the great debate. Nice to see that the thread didn't turn into the usual pprune arguments, insults and all over doom and gloom. Nice to see that there are still a lot of adults on the site.

[bringbackthe80s]

You know if you were telling me you want to go fly in South east asia/south america (just for example) for a new experience, then I would understand where you're coming from.
But to leave one of the best airline in the world and your flag carrier and as a Brithish (I am guessing), to go fly the same short haul in the same part of the world with the same long days for an lcc...then I really can't understand. I would think veeery hard before jumping.

[RexBanner]

Just to clarify for people wondering after NLP’s comments, Right to Request can now be for any reason/person, it is not the sole preserve of parents.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

For those of us clueless about life at BA, why is long haul so unbearable? What you are suggesting is tantamount to somebody leaving Delta Airlines for Spirit Airlines here in the states. Does not happen regardless of time to command. This being the case when most, if not all legacy carriers, are operating under essentially bankruptcy contracts. Pay is reasonable, work rules are non existent. It's hard to imagine that LH life at BA could be that bad...

[recall_checked]

For those of us clueless about life at BA, why is long haul so unbearable? What you are suggesting is tantamount to somebody leaving Delta Airlines for Spirit Airlines here in the states. Does not happen regardless of time to command. This being the case when most, if not all legacy carriers, are operating under essentially bankruptcy contracts. Pay is reasonable, work rules are non existent. It's hard to imagine that LH life at BA could be that bad...

I don’t think it’s the case that BA is bad at all, but easyJet is a very well paid job as a captain, good and relatively quick career progression. The idea of “majors or bust” doesnt exist in the U.K., some people are desperate to fly the flag but others are very happy not doing so. In the US, my impression is that unless you fly for the majors you haven’t “made it” and won’t get the best pay/benefits, but that’s not true in the U.K. so other factors come into play like bases, rosters, career progression and part time.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

So out of curiosity what does Easy pay vs. BA short haul? Don't the Easy guys work a hell of a lot more than BA? I good friend of mine from university is a captain for Swiss ( formerly SR ) and when he was on the 320 he said he worked his but off. Right to the limits of the regs. Now on the 340 and is pretty happy. Interesting how much all this varies depending on region and airline.

In the states the seniority list is somewhat upside down. At my airline guys are upgrading to captain in 3-4 years but need 5-6 years to get in the right seat of a 777. They look at short haul rosters and want no part of it. Personally I think its better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven, but to each his own!

[Boeing 7E7]

I don’t think it’s the case that BA is bad at all, but easyJet is a very well paid job as a captain, good and relatively quick career progression. The idea of “majors or bust” doesnt exist in the U.K., some people are desperate to fly the flag but others are very happy not doing so. In the US, my impression is that unless you fly for the majors you haven’t “made it” and won’t get the best pay/benefits, but that’s not true in the U.K. so other factors come into play like bases, rosters, career progression and part time.

That’s because the British flag carrier doesn’t pay nearly as well as the American legacy carriers. And so the difference between BA and low cost/ charter airlines is less significant.

[Mikehotel152]

Interesting thread. But it's surprising to me that nobody has mentioned the difference in the day to day job when comparing RHS 747 with LHS on a medium LOCO jet. I mean, what is it about being an airline pilot that floats your boat, as it were? In my humble opinion, there is a fundamental difference between longhaul and shorthaul jobs.

I gave up a previous career because I didn't want to sit at a paperwork-strewn desk surrounded by grey filing cabinets, looking out a window at a view of brick walls and concrete. For me, being an airline pilot is about the Vr and Vref, the hand-flying, selecting of AP modes, judging descents, and beautiful (and ugly) views into 150+ sometimes challenging airports, over a variety of routes and with a multicultural mix of interesting personnel. Those being the parts of the actual day to day job I most enjoy, longhaul flying and even the boring two-sector days, with 4-5 hour legs that the likes of Thomson fly on the 737, simply does not hold much attraction.

I have been with the same LOCO for the best part of 9 years, have lived at the base closest to my family for 7 years, fly a stable roster which allows me to plan childcare months in advance, and I'm in my own bed almost every night. The occasional out of base trip becomes a pleasure. I'm also training and checking, which brings an added dimension to my career. I'm happy with my remuneration, though benefits are non-existent and this is a company with a high turnover of staff for a reason. Interestingly, the leavers are split pretty evenly between short and longhaul airlines.

Overall, however, it's clear in my mind that being RHS 747 with BA would not give me what I want from my flying career. Much as I would love to spend a day on a 747 flightdeck, I wouldn't trade jobs. Horses for courses. For some pilots, flying longhaul or joining a legacy carrier is the Holy Grail. ;)

[Stone Cold II]

easyJet work harder than BA short haul? Don’t think so. I didn’t do over 30 hours a month during the winter. For July all 2 sector days totalling 65 hours for the month and I don’t have leave until August. Some nice short days just going to AMS and back, not all horrendous, yes we can have long days but so do pretty much everyone else.

Spoke to a friend of mine who got his command 2 years ago based at LGW on the 320 with BA. He’s working a damn side harder than I am and on less.

easyJet LGW is a different company to easyJet regional base. LGW is international rescue and the work and stresses will be greater but no more than anyone else. I do around 700-760 hours a year. Only twice in my 15 years at EZY have I gone over 800.

Depends what you want, some say why would you want to leave BA, I’ve never had any interest in joining, I don’t live anywhere near to London, all my family and friends are where I’m based now and I don’t want to commute and live out of a suitcase, done that before.

Its what you want out of life that more important, I don’t feel the need to go part time yet, I will once the mortgage is paid off in a few years and I don’t need the money as much.

There is no flying utopia anymore, there is little difference between most of the big airlines, whether it’s easyJet or BA in the grand scheme of things.

They exist to make money, they want to work you all as hard as possible and pay as little as they can get away with.

[dirk85]

Couldn't agree more.

I am not based in the UK, but in southern Europe, 15 mins away from where I was born and grew up and at the moment there is not a company that could offer me a better lifestyle than easyJet.

In the last rolling 6 months I have flown exactly 268 hours, 616 in my last 12 months. I am at home every night, and have my days off set in stone for the next years (5 on 4 off). I get paid reasonably well, amazing part time options available, good benefits and get to fly with with great colleagues.
We have long days, yes, and fatigue is an issue sometimes, but never was I called in the office or questioned when I have reported unfit or fatigued for a duty.
There is no perfect job, but this one does it for me, right now.

[recall_checked]

That’s because the British flag carrier doesn’t pay nearly as well as the American legacy carriers. And so the difference between BA and low cost/ charter airlines is less significant.

Exactly. In some cases our flag carrier doesn't pay as well as some of the low cost/charter airlines over a whole career due to quicker progression.

[GKOC41]

They exist to make money, they want to work you all as hard as possible and pay as little as they can get away with

And Aircrew generally want to work as little as possible and get as much pay as they can get away with - "they" know that also

[Right Engine]

I believe you will not have to serve the full 5 year engagement freeze if you bid for LGW P1. They are desperate. If you have the hours, put it in your PRIAM bid!!

[wiggy]

BA will always ignore freezes of any sort (initial, type changes etc) if they are strapped for person power in certain seats..that’s why “Bid for what you want, don”t just bid for what you think you might get” has always been good advice,...coupled with “ never bid for something you really don’t want “

[bringbackthe80s]

Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit.
Good to know this is the sentiment of many!

[RexBanner]

For balance, what happens if BA are going through some hard times (and therefore redundancies) at the same time as the Jumbo is winding down? Think there’s going to be junior bods on other fleets getting the chop and retraining going on? I’d suggest not. I don’t think the Jumbo is really the best place to be (and this is coming from someone who has bid for it). Having said that BA has a good track record in that area so it’s unlikely but nonetheless it’s a discussion point.

[Stone Cold II]

Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit.
Good to know this is the sentiment of many!





easyJet is pretty much set and ready for Brexit. I doubt very much there will be Armageddon when the times comes like the press want you to believe, neither side really wants that.

I don’t know about you, but you sound like you live to work, I work to live and to have the best lifestyle for my family. I would like to be a dad to my young children in person, every single day, rather than half their childhood through FaceTimE, whilst stuck in another hotel seeing the same things over and over again. I have no interest in commuting or packing a suitcase every time I go to work and BA simply cannot give me the lifestyle I want, I’ve seen the short haul rosters and no thanks, some of the long haul stuff looks pretty good. If I was in a different time of my life young and single, I would probably think about it and give it a go, but my life now is I have others to think about, who are more important than an aircraft type and colour and not being there often isn’t great for family life in my opinion long term, have a few friends families have broken down from being away.

You sound very proud to work for the flag carrier and so you should be, BA is a great brand, I just don’t think that fits into most people priorities. Everyone is different, easyJet is a very very strong airline, you will not find a safer seat when times get tough.

My my priority is to keep a roof over my families head and to be there every day for my children, if I feel tired I go fatigued/unfit and never had any comebacks, new bidding system working well for myself (not everyone mind) and don’t feel as tired as before, in fact feel pretty good this summer so far.

I enjoy going to work most of the time, fly with some truly great people and have a lot of fun during the day.

[Mister Geezer]

Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit.
Good to know this is the sentiment of many!


We are all individuals, which is indicative of the varied responses here. What will be one man's paradise will be another man's poison.

[FACoff]

Fascinating discussion, albeit ultimately easyJet vs BA again. As the Count accurately summarises, there are many pros and cons to both.

For me, the idea of reaching the pinnacle of my career in my early 30s, followed by years of flogging between the same runways with nothing to look forward to other than fatigue, roster disruption and eventually part time, was enough to push me off towards BA. I won't reach an easyJet Captain's salary for many years, but at least now I have options, a career path and some fantastic experiences to look forward to.

This is a unique industry where you have to back a horse early on - rocking up at BA in your mid 40's, in my opinion, is too late. Clearly you can only make these decisions based on your own situation at the time - it's certainly not easy and I honestly couldn't say at this point that I've done the right thing. Perhaps it'll be years before I'll even know.

What is obvious though is that the gap is closing between Easy and BA, and I can envisage a day when BA see a real reduction in applications unless they stem the pressure on Ts&Cs. Easy is a great place to work and the financial rewards are huge, if that's what motivates you. Of course long haul is the big differentiator, but remove that, I might have have stayed put.

In summary there's no right answer. Choose what suits you, and live with your decision. Easier said than done of course.

[RexBanner]

I can envisage a day when BA see a real reduction in applications unless they stem the pressure on Ts&Cs. Easy is a great place to work and the financial rewards are huge.

Me too FACoff and (much like Millhouse’s heart tearing in half at Lisa’s rejection in The Simpsons) you’ll be able to pinpoint the exact second where BA ceases to be attractive to DEPs. That point will be when the decision is made to get rid of PRIAM. Overnight the vast majority (not all but certainly the majority) of applications will dry up because it’s the one trump card BA has left now, the ability to move around the fleets is certainly why I joined and I suspect many, many others too. Take that away and the argument about whether to join becomes far less gray and much more black and white. BA need to be really, really careful with this and I hope it’s the one issue that Balpa would finally mark a real red line in the sand over.

[Akrapovic]

Whatever your persuasion, it's a sign of ever changing times. . . . Would this thread ever have existed 10-20 years ago. . .? I think not. . . . .

[macdo]

Was chatting to someone connected to Easy training a few weeks ago. Commented that Easy have an issue with quite a few people who have been with the firm for about 10-15 years, have had a fairly early command. These guys/gals really hate the company and the industry purely because they are trapped by the money. All options either require a substantial pay cut or a move to an unpleasant part of the world at a time when they are having young families. Recipe for unhappiness, which was fairly predictable.

[eckhard]

This is a unique industry where you have to back a horse early on - rocking up at BA in your mid 40's, in my opinion, is too late.

Well, I left a TC position with a UK 737 operator at the age of 42 and joined BA on the 747. Best career decision I ever made. Don’t misunderstand me: I took a huge pay cut at the time and I fully understand that this was 21 years ago and even then it was not for everyone. I remember one of my colleagues who joined with me and left after about 6 months.

Would I try to talk someone else into doing the same now? Probably not, as their career path will be different. Everyone must assess and make their own decision but I just wanted to point out that it worked for me.

[sidtheesexist]

Apologies for slight thread drift....Rex refers to Balpa hopefully drawing a line in the sand should BA come after PRIAM(Cassandra)....I seem to recall all the old hands saying the same thing about Bidline! :uhoh:

[RexBanner]

sidthesexist I agree, I’m sceptical myself but the fact is; if aspirational bidding goes what is actually left?

[eckhard]

I seem to recall all the old hands saying the same thing about Bidline!

Yes, and pensions!

[GS-Alpha]

Bex, the fact of the matter is everyone said precisely that about bidline too.

I have been struggling to comprehend for a few years now, why people still want to leave decent airlines to come to BA. The downward trend in terms and conditions has been accelerating all the time, and with its current inertia, we will be significantly worse than the low cost airlines before we halt the trend.

[Doug E Style]

sidthesexist I agree, I’m sceptical myself but the fact is; if aspirational bidding goes what is actually left?

Only the numbers in the bottom right hand corner of your payslip. And they're not competitive anymore.

[Northern Monkey]

The reality is that it is swings and roundabouts.

When I left easyJet in 2011 it was a toxic atmosphere in which to work. An external management consultancy had completed a survey of employees and had used exactly that word, "toxic", in it's description of relations between front line staff and management. I remember how anti-company the majority of people I flew with were. No discretion, no favours, even no single engine taxi or reduced flap landings for some. I remember one captain starting the APU at 3000 feet because "it was a short taxi in". People were desperate to leave and many did. In the years since under the McCall regime, the airline seems to have become a much better place to work with excellent financial rewards on offer and better (if not perfect) rostering. The toxicity seems, to a large degree, to have been banished.

Meanwhile at BA you could argue over the same period that we have seen a general slide towards dissatisfaction amongst the pilot workforce. Bidline is soon to be history, we have less leave than we used to have, 34 pay points instead of 24, huge and rising profits and fairly poor bonuses compared to easyJet. The pilot only pseudo share plan is a very poor relation to the excellent SAYE and BAYE share schemes at easyJet.

There will come a tipping point soon though, as others have identified, where the pendulum will have swung too far and things will necessarily start to move in the opposite direction. Already BA do not have it as good as they used to when it comes to recruitment. I can't imagine, in 2011, anyone turning down the offer of a job with BA. But apparently, plenty do these days. Even for those who accept, some have changed their minds during their notice period. It has become a tortuous decision for some and particularly around the issue of pay. easyJet is an extremely profitable place to work at the moment and people have made significant sums of money from share schemes in addition to the much better command salary on offer when compared to an early command at BA.

Personally I still think BA is a pretty good job. My wife and I have travelled the world in Club at a tiny fraction of the commercial cost, I love the long haul job (but also love the fact I can switch back to short hall if the situation should dictate it) and the training and the people are absolutely fantastic for the most part. I would describe it as generally more "chilled out" than easyJet in terms of the day to day flying.

Bottom line, in another 7 years who is to say where we will be and which will be a better employer. Will the pendulum have swung again? Probably, I would suggest. I don't envy those trying to make the decision today as it is doubtless more complicated than when I made mine. All I would say is that whatever option you choose will not be a disaster. Think long and hard, and then don't look back.

[Thad Jarvis]

BA gives you choices that Easyjet doesn't (aside from regional basing) if you are of a certain age. I agree with pretty much with NM's comments but I sense a rise in the discontent within Easyjet too in the post McCall era - possibly a little more than the usual summer mayhem and driven by continual inability to get establishment/rostering sums right. Then again you could say that of about any operator these days. EasyJet has become one of the better shows in town mainly due to the drive and determination of its employees and their representatives coupled with management team who started listening a bit more a few years ago.

[737 Jockey]

Interesting point...

Any easy Pilots care to comment on how things are under the new management?

[Captain Spam Can]

[QUOTE=737 Jockey;10187635]Interesting point...

Any easy Pilots care to comment on how things are under the new management?[/QUOTE

Nothing much I feel has changed since Johan has taken the reigns. On the face of it he seems a nice chap, he is very much into social media and does his communication through our Facebook workplace thing which I'm not sure many employees are on. Lots of selfies he likes to do with people out and about. I don't really use it so I don't hear from him. As for the henchman/ladies below Johan everything is quiet (at the min!) so I guess as long as no one wants to exert some authority and challenge for the throne game of thrones style we are happy with the status quo Caroyln has left in the air.

[Cmon-PullUP]

I guess it depends on where you are based as well.
In my base we don't have access to FB workplace, meaning that nobody at all has any clue about what happens on management level within the company - however, we also don't get pestered with all sort of useless info that needs to be selected for relevance ect :)

One very good thing I noticed is the selection of new managers. We had some managers exchanged on country and base levels, and Ezy seem to have chosen people with actual people skills and manager skills for these roles. This is new!!

[donogca]

What about TUI UK with the opportunity of long or short haul and regional basing, would you recommend this over BA as a career choice?

[bex88]

TUI, with regional basing over BA.......hell yes. My last duty I left home at 14:00 got stuck on the M4 and arrived for work at 15:45. So that was half an hours hold up but still ok as report was 16:00. Check in, flight delayed to 18:00 because the aircraft was late inbound. Pick up a ATC slot and eventually depart at 19:00 for a quick there and back. Again a slot and get back to my car gone midnight. M4 road works and eventually arrive home at 1:30. 11:30 door to door to go to the south of France and back. FFS really. The best bit is I can do it again for another 4 days before having 2 off. Oh that and it’s only worth 4:30 credit and £40 in flight pay.

[737 Jockey]

And that’s before they start moving the M25 and building a third runway! If indeed they actually do ever make a start ��

[Alloy]

Having backed the wrong horse early on in my career, being ex-Monarch, I considered easyjet amongst others when things went south but BA was of no interest as there was no way I could pay the mortgage. The thought of commuting to LHR was also a total turn-off .

[Mylius]

As always it’s horses for courses. So many factors determine your lifestyle at BA. Do you commute? PP24 or PP34? LH or SH? Which fleet? Age? Family circumstances? Seniority? The answer as to whether you stay or go will be different for everyone at every point on the seniority list for different reasons and nobody is right or wrong.

If you want to be home every night forever then BA is not for you. If you can’t soak up the frustrations of operating out of LHR then I’d avoid it like the plague. For a career in short haul then EZY at a regional base probably beats BA - even at LGW. If you get a command after a few years then the money is certainly better at EZY. But if your goal is to travel the world and spend time in places you would probably never see on your holidays then I can’t think of anywhere else in the UK that can offer the variety than BA.

It’s not a perfect place to work but you can delete those management emails without having to read them and if you never visit Yammer then you’d find life is pretty good because none of the negativity gets through to you! The variety and choice is unmatched but it goes without saying it’s not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. Look after number 1. Too many people are at BA because it impresses the neighbours. They’re often the unhappiest of all.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Mylius - a very accurate and incisive post.

[MikeAlpha320]

Having recently joined from EZY I am genuinely surprised at the lack of rostering agreements, fatigue management system and the attitude towards fatigue in general at the company. Looking at several rosters guys/girls are working 6 on 1 off 6 on in certain cases (perhaps overtime) but Im sure a majority being forced to do it in order to get even the slightest bit of control later on in the month. 5/4/5/3 or the FRV pattern back at easy was FAR less fatiguing and the real lack of days off is crazy. Yes- you work fewer block hours, but how is sitting in the pilots bar for 2 hours waiting for an aircraft any less fatiguing? Duty hours are through the roof and the inefficiency of the system really is astonishing. FR are working 5/4 and yet BA see it fit that you can work 7 on 1 off? I appreciate it allows for overtime and moving trips around but when there is so much in overtime days are closed anyway! Grass isn't always greener...!

[oleostrutbasher]

Interesting post mikealpha320. My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior. Thoughts from anyone who has gone EZY to BA in the last few years would be much appreciated.

[Doppio]

...My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul...

Hi. I didn't join from Easyjet and left BA for Ryanair but if the above quote is what you expect to find in a job then you've come to the absolute worst place.

[Doppio]

Oh and another thing; It's not 'horses for courses' or anything along that vein. Unless of course you're a horse with 25plus years of seniority, a crystalized NAPS pension and at the top of a 24 point payscale... None of which are on offer, to be clear.

[wiggy]

... My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior.

Yikes....you do now that that might have been possible once upon a time, under Bidline, ..but once/if JSS comes in who knows...

[hunterboy]

A lot of what is written here reminds me of Churchill’s quote about democracy being the worst type of governance......apart from from all the rest.
B.A does have its issues, as do many other airlines. What is for sure, is the pilot job has changed over 50/40/30/20/10 years...and not for the better.
‘Who is to blame? I’m sure we could come up with a list of suspects. What are we going to do about it collectively? Good question. I’ll vote for anyone that has an answer.

[Stocious]

Interesting post mikealpha320. My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior. Thoughts from anyone who has gone EZY to BA in the last few years would be much appreciated.

I've been in 4 years and pretty much get every weekend off, never miss an important occasion and don't fly at night. Haven't done for about a year. It is possible...

[Enzo999]

I've been in 4 years and pretty much get every weekend off, never miss an important occasion and don't fly at night. Haven't done for about a year. It is possible...

Every weekend, what’s your secret? Most people I know with 10 years of seniority still work most weekends, not out of choice!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I guess 4 years in as a SH F/O will see you, ahem, “fly” up the list and gain some control fairly quickly. 10 years seniority on a popular LH fleet will see you just out of the bottom 3rd, maybe even the lofty heights of halfway! Only the 74) will see you top half by then.

On the ezy/BA theme, I think the big orange finally reached a point where rosters were so ridiculous they had to improve - it was certainly bonkers when I was there. If the rumours of new improved fixed roster patterns are true then we may see things develop to the point Ba actually start providing TR’d and experienced Captains to ezy, not the other way round. Which would be a turn up for the books. In reality I think BA are just a bit behind ezy on the cycle of stupid rostering and things will have to improve* as some point.

As things stand, BA lose very few pilots, although I know of one junior P1 who has quit for pastures new recently. Until that changes or we actually grow a pair as a collective and tell BA to poke off things will stay as they are. A moderately experienced pilot can have a lgw s/h command in BA within a couple of years of joining, I reckon that is as quick as it happens anywhere in Europe? Which says it all really. BA is no longer the holy grail, it’s just another airline job.

*I heard anecdotally that an ezy accountant asked why historically they lost so many pilots to BA. “Because our guys are so well trained” came the response.....”we could save a lot more if we didn’t train them so well” was said accountant’s retort - so when I say improve......

[bringbackthe80s]

Ahahahahaah fantastic! I hope the last one about the accountant is a joke?!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I would hope so, but the again, we are talking about an accountant who works for an airline :ugh:

[GKOC41]

Having recently joined from EZY I am genuinely surprised at the lack of rostering agreements, fatigue management system and the attitude towards fatigue in general at the company. Looking at several rosters guys/girls are working 6 on 1 off 6 on in certain cases (perhaps overtime) but Im sure a majority being forced to do it in order to get even the slightest bit of control later on in the month. 5/4/5/3 or the FRV pattern back at easy was FAR less fatiguing and the real lack of days off is crazy. Yes- you work fewer block hours, but how is sitting in the pilots bar for 2 hours waiting for an aircraft any less fatiguing? Duty hours are through the roof and the inefficiency of the system really is astonishing. FR are working 5/4 and yet BA see it fit that you can work 7 on 1 off? I appreciate it allows for overtime and moving trips around but when there is so much in overtime days are closed anyway! Grass isn't always greener...!
MA320
One of the FRM requirements of EASA FTL asks just that. question what happens when crew members flying on days off for overtime etc and what processes are in place by the AOC to manage it - The Airlines answer (not just BA) is hum - the FTL limits. With the extended rest recovery periods of EASA FTL you can work crews extremely hard if you so wish (just need to look around Europe to see this especially with a weak regulator)
From what i've seen at UK AOC's most are behaving responsibly particularly if BALPA are keeping them on their toes. Not sure about BA though wasn't there a famous quote "There is no fatigue at BA"

[MikeAlpha320]

Apparently making cap so high that everyone has to work most waking hours but letting us try to choose how we do it means that its not fatiguing? Add in forcing trips on people- a very poorly organised operation in and out of LHR and the attitude that BA is still the best and there is nowhere else to go and you've got the perfect recipe for this situation. Not to mention forcing captains into RHS so they don't have to pay FO's for the overworked hours in the working agreement. When will BALPA get out of the companies pocket and actually do something?

[Buter]

September.

[Wide-Body]

September.
we will see Buter my friend, we will see.

a heartfelt meant good luck.

[Buter]

we will see Buter my friend, we will see.

a heartfelt meant good luck.


Thanks, I think we'll need it.

B

[FACoff]

Apparently making cap so high that everyone has to work most waking hours but letting us try to choose how we do it means that its not fatiguing? Add in forcing trips on people- a very poorly organised operation in and out of LHR and the attitude that BA is still the best and there is nowhere else to go and you've got the perfect recipe for this situation. Not to mention forcing captains into RHS so they don't have to pay FO's for the overworked hours in the working agreement. When will BALPA get out of the companies pocket and actually do something?

Interesting reading. Having recently jumped ship from EZY too, these thoughts aren't too far from my own.

Things to take into account. Many rosters are self inflicted - lots of guys appear to utterly shaft themselves for money, to the point of doing 7/1/7 as you say - that is THEIR choice. The company also appear to acknowledge that 320 FOs are working exceptionally hard at the moment, and appear to be actively trying to rectify that (recruitment/captain RHS). I also gather they are hoping to eliminate the daily aircraft swaps that seem to pointlessly add so much duty time to our day.

All that said, it's swings and roundabouts - BA is by no means the utopia I'd hoped it would be. Is it better than EZY? Apparently most seem to think so, or they'd be on their way back.

What is not so often said is why such numbers leave EZY for BA - and for the most part it's the 75% EZY contract. The combination of training debt and comically poor EZY money appears to be enough to push many an FO off to BA, when perhaps they would rather stay at EZY if it was financially viable. The flip side of course, is that junior BA captains are then disgustingly cheap and many I've flown with are now very interested in the current EZY offering.

EZY-BA-EZY could soon be a standard career route it seems.

[hunterboy]

I think the first action of the new BACC should be a ballot for industrial action. Would give them an idea of the kind of support they enjoy.

[skyflyer737]

A very interesting thread. For my own lifestyle reasons my route has been Ryanair - BA - Ryanair....but I’d never rule out Easy if part time contracts people are mentioning here are so good.

Would an Easy pilot care to briefly outline how the various part time rosters work in terms of 5/4/5/3 etc in the UK and how quickly you could expect to get one if coming in as a DEC?

It seems lifestyle / fatigue is the over riding factor in this whole thread and money is secondary - and that’s very much in line with my thoughts. I went to BA for lifestyle and had quite a shock.

[macdo]

I think the stressors on modern day pilots who have come to the industry in the last 5 years is Debt, Get a Job, Debt, Command, Lifestyle, Lifestyle, Lifestyle. The lifestyle one is the only way you'll literally survive a career in aviation in the 21st. century.

[bringbackthe80s]

Not sure if the thread is of any use anymore, it's probably all been discussed within the first 2 pages.

One thing is quite clear to me though. I see a lot of disillusionment from the majority of (presumably quite young) posters on here. Not very motivating.
From someone who has been dreaming of becoming a pilot I am always astonished as how top of the list goals are: live 5 minutes from your home town/in your country, being home every night, work part time already from a young age, and so on. Basically find a way to make flying as painless as possible to then dedicate oneself to as many other activities as possible.
It's just hard for me to understand why are these top priorities in a career like this?

So, as usual, I am left thinking that people commenting on here have come to a very specific view of the job and of life in general, leaving the many other silent living life and the job as best as they can. Travelling the world, learning new things, meeting new people, trying new experiences and staying positive.

[Doppio]

So, as usual, I am left thinking that people commenting on here have come to a very specific view of the job and of life in general, leaving the many other silent living life and the job as best as they can. Travelling the world, learning new things, meeting new people, trying new experiences and staying positive.





All of that sounds great but you need a reason to stay positive; You can't merely stay positive for the sake of staying positive. When I started flying the entire last sentence applied fully to my job, but now it is all about managing fatigue, keeping the family together and trying not to get screwed over too much by your employer... In fact I've actively discouraged my own son from pursuing a paid career in aviation because at this point I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Remember me telling you this before you sign your life away on a student loan for pilot training; The old days are GONE.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

For those interested in LHS part time EZJ and perhaps moving to the regions that is what I am.

50% part time albeit with >10 years in so the full 15% annual loyalty bonus pays about £68k plus 7% basic into a pension. You work 9 days in a two week block that starts Monday and finishes on the Sunday the following week then a fortnight off. You get 14 days leave a year which if you take three or more in one block get two days off wrapped around. I take four three day blocks which equals a week off plus two random days for wedding anniversary’s etc. You get fouR PDO’s which are preferred days off in two day pairs. So four times a year I pick the weekend of the working fortnight and have that off.

So, usually I end up with four “hard months” where I work 9 days. Four “soft months” when I work 9 days but have 3 out of 4 weekends off. Four “easy months” where I work up to 6 days in a 7 day window and have the rest of the month off. I get home standbys and airport standbys just like anyone full time.

We have a preferential bidding system and I bid for all earlies as I prefer to commute to work at 5am in light traffic and can easily sleep in the afternoon.

The share schemes are worth a couple of grand a year even if the share price remained static. My boss is nice to me. When I make a mistake I’m honest about it and the company are supportive. Balpa handle my negotiations. The aircraft are usually less than five years old, the training is fair and the business model and balance sheet look comfortingly robust. Living in the regions mean I have a house that would cost several million were it in the South East of England where I understand it most people do not enjoy both a boating and a fishing lake.


With the political wind blowing in favour of higher taxation and ending higher rate pension tax relief then I suggest earning less but needing less income is the optimal flightplan.

WWW

[dirk85]

I would not even consider working for a company that does NOT provide sensible part time options.
And some of the options available in easyJet in the continent and UK are brilliant, and the only way forward in the long term.
The waiting list can be long, depending on the base and the p/t option choosen and go from 1 to 13 years.

Quality of life comes first.

[skyflyer737]

WWW - many thanks for your informative post

[macdo]

It's just hard for me to understand why are these top priorities in a career like this?

So, as usual, I am left thinking that people commenting on here have come to a very specific view of the job and of life in general, leaving the many other silent living life and the job as best as they can. Travelling the world, learning new things, meeting new people, trying new experiences and staying positive.



It shouldn't be that hard to understand. I've seen, listened to and read about a lot of pop stars who slaved for stardom only to find that the glitter wasn't so great after a period of time. Same is true of aviation, I still love flying but the adulation of the crowd.... sorry the disruption of normal family life becomes extremely onerous after a while, so many (not all) end up either being captured by the money and turning bitter or striving for a work/life balance involving PT. thankfully most airlines are getting their heads right about PT as we are expensive assets to lose.

[Stan Woolley]

Stan Wooley - many thanks for your PM. I tried to reply but your inbox is full! I really appreciate the info you passed on.

You’re very welcome.

I’ve cleared some space. ;)

[LlamaFarmer]

I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what to do, as every individual has different circumstances, but for me, sticking with EZY is the way to go.

I became a pilot because I love flying. The flying I do at EZY can be hard work, but also incredibly challenging and rewarding. When the conditions are appropriate and my colleague is sat next to me, I am able to take all the automation out, FDs off, ATHR off, and fly it like a Seneca again. I found IR training too hard to particularly enjoy flying raw data non-precision approaches. Now I find them very enjoyable, and a good healthy stretch of the technical, non-technical and handling skills.
A raw data manual thrust SID out of one of the Greek Islands, or a visual into Valencia is thoroughly enjoyable if you're moderately competent with the aircraft (although many fellow pilots, at EZY and elsewhere, are sometimes a bit too nervous to do things like that, but the company has a sensible automation policy that allows, and when appropriate, encourages it)

However I became a commercial pilot in my early 20s when I was young, free and single. I had nobody else to worry about other than myself. That is no longer the case, I'm in my 30s, and have wifey and kids, plus live much much closer to my elderly grandparents than my parents do (30 mins vs 4-5 hours). Being home nearly every night is important to me, and to the missus and the little ones. There are a few scheduled night-stops out of LGW, only 3 currently (LIN, MAD & INV), with an early and a late rotation. Unscheduled night-stops are rare (only 2 in the last 5 years, one due to missing a slot and therefore exceeding 2 hours of discretion before pushback, the other due to AOG down route in a non-base). There are out-of-base trips to cover annual leave in smaller bases, or where they've had crew leave for new pastures, but these are not too common. Many captains commute (and stay in the airport hotel) so are happy to pick up trips like that and save on their hotel bills.

We have good scheduling and rostering agreements in the UK, things like no pre-6am starts on Day 1 of a block, an ability to refuse (or accept, for a cash compensation) short notice disruption changes (starting/finishing more than 2 hours earlier/later, short notice night-stops), total ability to refuse to work into days off (so much as getting off the plane and going home, flights have been cancelled as a result but days off are days OFF, however the payment for working into days off could and should be a bit better) and fatigue mitigation such as transition control, and an unchallenging fatigue reporting system. Never have I had to justify calling in fatigued, or offloading myself as fatigued, or where commanders discretion has been refused, or used to reduce FDP/increase rest.

The pay is pretty great actually. The problem is the UK taxation of that pay.
I don't think anybody can earn £105k basic, plus up to 15% loyalty, plus annual performance bonus, plus £15k+ sector pay, plus 2 weeks/£3000 tax-free performance shares, and say they don't earn enough.
But many people are maxing out their pension contributions to £40k including the company's 7%, just to try get under the £100k mark and avoid that 62% taxation band. Already many are looking to 75% or 50% part time, to reduce their tax as much as improve their lifestyle. If/when the government reduce the 40% pension tax relief I can see even more part time requests coming in.
Then theres the company share schemes... BAYE were you can buy £1800 shares a year and the company will match it (up to £1500). Or SAYE where you save an amount up to £300 a month, for 3 years, and get to buy the shares at the original 20% discounted offer price, or at worst, take all your money back. A zero-risk savings, worst case you get 0% return on it, best case, more than double in 3 years.


The trick with EZY is to not get stressed and worked up by things you can't control. Summer at Gatwick is a $hitshow. Everything turns to brown stuff. But you can't help the ground handling problems, you have no control over it. So you don't worry too much, you control what you can. You exercise discretion, or you don't. You work into a day off, or you refuse. If your duty is 4 hours late, then your report is delayed the next day. If you're not fit for it then you go FTGD. As long as you treat a working day as a working day and don't make any plans that can't be cancelled last minute, then you don't get too upset by it all.

I hear many of the FRV guys have nearly all their weekends off as well. Fixed pattern with the Preference Bidding we can bid for earlies or lates. 2 sectors or 4. Nightstops or not. The random roster guys can also bid for particular days off, ie for a birthday or wedding, or weekend away etc.



For those of us who aren't that bothered by long haul (I get severely bored on a long SH sector, Greek Islands, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt etc if my colleague is not especially chatty) and dread the thought of an 8+ hour flight, or some of the extra long haul stuff, and that like being in their own bed nearly every night, and like knowing NOW that they're going to be off on Saturday 25th September 2021 for their 20th wedding anniversary party or whatever, or the kids sports day/school play/etc, then EZY is probably one of the best.

Things could definitely be better. But they are a damn sight worse in some other LCCs.
The grass is always greener. Except when it isn't.

[Twiglet1]

For those interested in LHS part time EZJ and perhaps moving to the regions that is what I am.


Part Time is generally loved by Airlines and crews alike.
If WWW (been at EZY a long time) goes part time it means;
He is happy.
He is less expensive for the Airline being a senior Captain
He is replaced by a less paid Captain
Who might be a FO promotion so another happy crew member
Who is replaced by a wannabie F/O who is cheap and happy
It normally assures retention
So a win win.
Yes it does mean the AOC has to train more crews and insurance / social charges may be higher.
It just takes the Management and bean counters to look further ahead than the end of their noses.

It is also no coincidence that two of the UK AOC's with approved FRMS are well into part time (EZY and DHK)

[BizJetJockey]

Very informative thread. As a 35 year old with decent varied experience behind me and a need to get back to the U.K. from the Far East, it is interesting and also rather tricky to know where will be the most beneficial place to get my career back on track. Easy or BA?! The initial TR cost plus the initial 75% contract are factors that sometimes sways me towards BA however the quick upgrade times at Easy then sway me in the opposite direction. With a newborn baby and possibly just my salary to support us I know initially it could be tough at Easy however I like the ethos of the company and the people seem very friendly plus I know it will get better relatively quickly. BA command upgrade times and roster horror stories put me off somewhat however there are always horror stories wherever you look...just check out Fragrant Harbour!! I know opinions vary however I’m keen to get my command sooner rather than later, not interested in long haul as have been doing that for a few years now and kind of tired of it plus with a new family keen to be home every night. As a 35 year old, is the TR cost and 75% initial contract worth tolerating with the knowledge that life at Easy is pretty good once the salary is at 100% and there’s an upgrade on the horizon? Not interested in the SSTR argument here. Opinions welcome from those who have gone from one to the other and in some cases back again etc etc.

[bylgw]

75% contract: is that with BA? You won't get part time straight away and at the moment there is a huge waiting list.

[LlamaFarmer]

The 75% is a travesty on EZY FOs, and until very recently, the company were recruiting DEFOs onto 100% whilst "loyal" FOs were stuck on 75% (which is 100% summer, 50% winter roster) because there were "no 100% positions available" for them to upgrade.

IE the company were screwing over the FOs who joined them as cadets on a terrible contract, and knowing the contract was so bad that nobody would accept it for Direct Entry, were offering the full time contract to new experienced pilots.

I believe now BALPA are forcing them to do something about all that, but not sure what or how long it'll take.



EZY is a great company to work at eventually, but the first few years are really $hit because of the contracts and general distain and contempt for their FOs. In the smaller and cheaper bases it may not be such a problem.
In & around the London bases, the early years FO contracts really doesn't pay very well compared to the rest of the UK airline market.

[Dct_Mopas]

Regarding joining EZY as an FO. With a high level of experience you’d join the airline as a SFO into the UK at least, but yes it looks like being on 75% contracts.

[BizJetJockey]

I’m not entirely sure how my hours would be factored. Roughly 3500 mostly of which are business jet and A330/350 P2X/SO (Cruise Relief). Hopefully I would start with EZY as an FO at least.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You need to speak to the easyJet recruitment team. We are desperate for pilots and any with chunky prior experience would be a godsend for the training department. There’s more expansion coming and I strongly suspect eve more Captains are going to want part time so the pressure to upgrade eligible FOs will be there even if expansion stopped. The below par FO early contracts are a silly hangover from a few years ago when we were the on,y show in town other than Ryanair. Although I know of several FOs who refuse to budge from 75% to 100% because they enjoy the part time lifestyle.


WWW

[VinRouge]

You need to speak to the easyJet recruitment team. We are desperate for pilots and any with chunky prior experience would be a godsend for the training department. There’s more expansion coming and I strongly suspect eve more Captains are going to want part time so the pressure to upgrade eligible FOs will be there even if expansion stopped. The below par FO early contracts are a silly hangover from a few years ago when we were the on,y show in town other than Ryanair. Although I know of several FOs who refuse to budge from 75% to 100% because they enjoy the part time lifestyle.


WWW
Will they consider very experienced heavy experienced military guys straight into LHS?

[speedrestriction]

Not without significant LHS civil experience.

[Doug E Style]

Could an EZ pilot familiar with the Berlin operation get in touch by pm please?

[bex88]

The latest DEP for the uk says £120k made up of basic...., sector and bonus opportunity. How does this actually break down? What’s the pension? LOL, health care? Or is it like RYR where the give you an allowance to buy this yourself. Is there anyone in recruitment who you can talk to before applying to decide if it’s right for you and your family?

[Dct_Mopas]

Basic £104,500
Sector pay (average for me) £14,000 per year
Annual loyalty bonus after 2 years is 5%, increasing to 10% after 5 years then 15% after 10 years.

7% company pension contributions, 1.3 x salary LOL. LOL can be increased but by paying a monthly premium. No healthcare provided.

[2unlimited]

Dct_Mopas - The UK contracts are not guaranteed to be SFO contracts, I know it has been given some in 2017, but generally the direct entry FO's for UK contract start as Second Officer, 2 years as First Officer before becoming SFO.
I know prior to 2017 and part of 2017 it was like this, I don't know how 2018 looks, but I believe that is the general progression for FO's. The caveat is that you can get your command before becoming SFO.

[2unlimited]

As for the debate BA vs LoCo's, I think it depends what you want in life and what stage you are at in life.
BA, sure you can fly many different aircraft etc., but in the end after a while it's not the time you spend at work that creates the greatest value you in your life, it's the time you spend with loved ones and family. Finding the balance between work and lifestyle is the main thing.
I think many join BA based on old thoughts of the prestige of flying for a flag carrier, however all the great advantages of working for flag carriers are slowly disappearing.
If you join BA first SH, you are living from a suitcase, from hotel to hotel. You are just living to work the next day. Sure if you are young and have no commitments, children / family etc. you probably don't mind this lifestyle. However having lived the hotel life over 10 years myself, I can assure you there is only so much you can take before it becomes just another day to get trough.

Some say you should embrace the lifestyle, and discover new parts of the world, sure sounds nice, but I rather discover new parts of the world with loved ones, than alone - as the experience becomes hollow and empty not to have someone to share the memories with.

Similar you than go to long haul, destinations all over the world, sure excitement in the start, stopover in exotic countries, enjoying night life in your downtime, again it's single persons lifestyle. You hardly ever home, if you have children you will miss 90% of the things in their lives, if you are married or in a relationship, how do you expect to maintain this when you are constantly away?

I have a friend working Long Haul, he has dated a few Cabin Crew, and I told him he should find someone not in aviation to settle down with, but he explains how can he find someone, when he is always away.
Having friends, and having met loads of aircrews in many of my travels around the world, I "know the lifestyle" - and for most it ends in multiple divorces and little or not much contact with your own children.

Now some people in their 20s and early 30's, might not yet appreciate this aspect in life, and are still blinded by the chance to fly the A380 or Dreamliner.

However for me personally after commuting for many years by flight abroad, when I landed my first job back in the UK, it was the biggest life changer ever in my life. When I everyday finished duty and knew that in not long time I would be home with my loved ones, in my own bed, and could actually use my off time to something useful and meaningful instead of just sitting in a hotel room or apartment and wasting time, waiting for time until I could get home. It would go days, some time weeks being away, just to get home for 2 days before had to leave again.

That feeling to be home everyday is worth more than all the money in the world. I have been offered work trough friends in the far east where I could make 4 - 5 times what I make now, and probably work half of what I am working now, but considering the massive commute and time away, and all what I would miss I would never consider doing this.

In the end it all comes down to what you value most in your own life, it's a personal choice.
When old people are asked on question, what in life do you wish you had done more, spent more time doing, the ONE ANSWER, NEVER given, is "I wish I had spent more time at work"

That's the reason I would NEVER work for BA, it's just not for me and what I value in life. But thank god we are not all the same, because I like to go on holiday with my family to those destinations that Long Haul pilots fly, but I want to go there to enjoy with family and friends, and not sit there alone staring at the sun (and any temptations that might come my way because I am feeling lonely) And what many forget, is that their partner/wife might also be feeling lonely at home, so who knows who does what. ( based on true stories told by few long haul pilots I know)

[2unlimited]

REXBANNER - Your observation of Norwegian is very wrong, they just posted large profits in their 2.nd financial quarter, where they was expected to make losses. So not sure where you getting all misinformation from, furthermore if going so bad, why would IAG be looking to buy them?

They have also started a recruitment drive for RYR pilots being shafted in DUB, and trust me, the Norwegian passenger experience at least on the flights I have had with them, is just as good if not better than BA. (Newer aircraft)
"Join Norwegian's expanding Dublin base to fly on our 737s in a European and transatlantic operation.

Norwegian offers local contracts, a group wide master seniority list for upgrades and base biddings, and the possibility to transfer between our fleets (at present we fly Boeing 737s and 787s).

Register your application on careers.norwegian.com. We will have screening days available in August, with starting dates later this year."

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Easyjet just dropped the part time aspect of contracts for permanent FOs and are now offering 100% full time contracts to any right hand seat pilot who wants it. There is a definite shortage of right hand seat pilots and they are close to admitting that fact. I would say personal negotiation of your terms is now possible if you have relevant experience.

WWW

[JulietSierra6]

As for the debate BA vs LoCo's, I think it depends what you want in life and what stage you are at in life.
BA, sure you can fly many different aircraft etc., but in the end after a while it's not the time you spend at work that creates the greatest value you in your life, it's the time you spend with loved ones and family. Finding the balance between work and lifestyle is the main thing.
I think many join BA based on old thoughts of the prestige of flying for a flag carrier, however all the great advantages of working for flag carriers are slowly disappearing.
If you join BA first SH, you are living from a suitcase, from hotel to hotel. You are just living to work the next day. Sure if you are young and have no commitments, children / family etc. you probably don't mind this lifestyle. However having lived the hotel life over 10 years myself, I can assure you there is only so much you can take before it becomes just another day to get trough.

Some say you should embrace the lifestyle, and discover new parts of the world, sure sounds nice, but I rather discover new parts of the world with loved ones, than alone - as the experience becomes hollow and empty not to have someone to share the memories with.

Similar you than go to long haul, destinations all over the world, sure excitement in the start, stopover in exotic countries, enjoying night life in your downtime, again it's single persons lifestyle. You hardly ever home, if you have children you will miss 90% of the things in their lives, if you are married or in a relationship, how do you expect to maintain this when you are constantly away?

I have a friend working Long Haul, he has dated a few Cabin Crew, and I told him he should find someone not in aviation to settle down with, but he explains how can he find someone, when he is always away.
Having friends, and having met loads of aircrews in many of my travels around the world, I "know the lifestyle" - and for most it ends in multiple divorces and little or not much contact with your own children.

Now some people in their 20s and early 30's, might not yet appreciate this aspect in life, and are still blinded by the chance to fly the A380 or Dreamliner.

However for me personally after commuting for many years by flight abroad, when I landed my first job back in the UK, it was the biggest life changer ever in my life. When I everyday finished duty and knew that in not long time I would be home with my loved ones, in my own bed, and could actually use my off time to something useful and meaningful instead of just sitting in a hotel room or apartment and wasting time, waiting for time until I could get home. It would go days, some time weeks being away, just to get home for 2 days before had to leave again.

That feeling to be home everyday is worth more than all the money in the world. I have been offered work trough friends in the far east where I could make 4 - 5 times what I make now, and probably work half of what I am working now, but considering the massive commute and time away, and all what I would miss I would never consider doing this.

In the end it all comes down to what you value most in your own life, it's a personal choice.
When old people are asked on question, what in life do you wish you had done more, spent more time doing, the ONE ANSWER, NEVER given, is "I wish I had spent more time at work"

That's the reason I would NEVER work for BA, it's just not for me and what I value in life. But thank god we are not all the same, because I like to go on holiday with my family to those destinations that Long Haul pilots fly, but I want to go there to enjoy with family and friends, and not sit there alone staring at the sun (and any temptations that might come my way because I am feeling lonely) And what many forget, is that their partner/wife might also be feeling lonely at home, so who knows who does what. ( based on true stories told by few long haul pilots I know)

Its interesting to be told about my lifestyle and future career at BA from someone who has NEVER worked here.

Having worked for both a low cost airline and now BA I can tell you my lifestyle is infinitely better than it was previously. I am SH at LGW which suits me perfectly for now living in the south east with a 15 minute drive to work. I work almost exclusively early day trips with a few longer trips thrown in for variety which suits my young family. The summer is certainly full on here but no more so than at my last employer and the winters are considerably quieter. I feel that I am treated as an adult and work day to day with some fantastic colleagues. As I say for now this suits me but knowing I have the options when the need or desire for change arises is what for me makes BA the better option.

I undertand BA isn’t for everyone but to make out you can’t have both a fulfilling career and brilliant home life while working here is simply not true.

[bex88]

JulietSierra66. 2Unlimited has described BA at LHR to the T. Not sure I could put it better myself really. The only thing I would add is our stupid rostering. Honestly sometimes I want to lamp the t&£t that is laughing about JSS calling it the junior shafting system. LGW I understand is very different to the grind at LHR.

Dct_mopas. Thank you for that. Is the rostering random or fixed pattern? Anything else which you can highlight as a positive or indeed a negative?

[RexBanner]

REXBANNER - Your observation of Norwegian is very wrong, they just posted large profits in their 2.nd financial quarter, where they was expected to make losses. So not sure where you getting all misinformation from, furthermore if going so bad, why would IAG be looking to buy them?

2unlimited I’ve read the Q2 report and their numbers are still very bad, it is possible to polish a turd with creative accounting. If it wasn’t for currency translation and moves in forward contracts on fuel and currency they would have posted a loss. They’ve also taken money from Rolls Royce, payments which will cease in future. The one thing that is screaming out from those figures in the Q2 report is that they are losing money operationally, however you dress it up. Yield/Revenue per unit (RASK) is below cost levels (CASK) which translates to an operational loss, at a time that is one of the highest travel times of the year, not good news. They’ve sold and leveraged virtually every ounce of liquidity they have and yields are falling faster than costs. It’s not a healthy situation whatsoever.

I’ve flown WW recently and had a face to face conversation with him about the interest in Norwegian but I can’t exactly divulge what was said on here. Anyway, this thread is about BA, if you want to debate me about Norwegian’s finances (although there isn’t much of a debate to be had) just send me a PM or something.

(Having said that it is relevant to anyone considering jumping ship to the flying tampons I suppose.)

[Mark2006]

I wasn't intending to reply to this thread, but to shine a slightly more positive light.. I moved a few years ago from one of the LCC to BA (long haul) and never regretted it for a second. Surely, there are things that could be improved, but my lifestyle is so much better than it used to be. I actually find I have more quality time at home than I ever had before whilst flying low cost and the perspective of having no change for the next X amount of years was just not for me. Of course I had to take a pay cut, but in the long run that will even out. I know 2 other guys who made the same move and they don't regret their move either. I do sometimes wonder if the guys who actually enjoy BA would post here as much as the people who don't - I guess they possibly spend less time on a forum like this, but this is just an assumption of course :).

[bex88]

On the BA/EZY thing. It’s not all about the money but I have yet to find anything exciting that’s not expensive. BA basic pay is around 13k a year less for a junior captain. In 5 years time it’s still the same gap and in 10 years it closes to 8k. After 21 years in BA you finally catch up. (Assuming PP34 and SH) Allowances are roughly similar. The pension at BA is better though. 16.5% company with AVC’s at my current level verses 7% at easy. I don’t think you can move just for the ££ due to the tax rate over 100k but you could pile that extra into the pension to max your allowance and keep you below 100k.

Rexbanner, what’s your view on the finances?

[RexBanner]

And therein lies the rub Mark, BA Short Haul (at Heathrow anyway, I respect the views of JulietSierra6 regarding Gatwick) is a ****show compared to Long Haul to the point of being like two separate companies. I’m guessing that at Gatwick you’re not doing the constant aircraft swapping and sitting around at Pret for two hours that we endure here. And then I’m supposed to pipe down and take consolation that I am more senior whilst DEPs from Flybe off the Dash 8 with no jet time take up residence in the RHS of the 777/787, even though seniority in terms of lifestyle at BA is only relevant to the seat you’re in at the time and we could be waiting multiple years to see it (and enjoying the delights of multiple reports/sectors in and out of Heathrow in the meantime) because of all the DEPs flooding into the long haul fleets.

The RHS Airbus has stagnated for a year now at least even though there are new recruits coming in meaning no lifestyle improvement at a time where there is recruitment going on. I fully take the point that it has stagnated in the past, 9/11 etc (I could take that, I’d feel lucky to have a job) but that’s apples and oranges, it’s stagnating now and it shouldn’t be.

Bex I can’t comment on the finances too much, at least no one should read too much into my interpretation of the finances in the RHS of the Airbus unless you’re also a single guy commuting from a tax haven ;-)

[Mark2006]

Yes I completely understand that RexBanner and I am in no position to comment on the shorthaul / Heathrow lifestyle from that perspective. I fully understand that that's a completely different world and it must be quite frustrating at times. However, earlier in this thread the long haul lifestyle in BA was discussed as well, hence my post to give a slightly more positive view.

[Northern Monkey]

It's completely wrong to suggest you can't have a good home life at BA.

For starters I spend FAR more time with my family than most people who work normal 9-5 (read 8-6) jobs. Anyone who works in the City is lucky to see their children at all during the week. At least that is certainly true for the people I know who are travelling out to the commuter belt every day.

Specifically in relation to easyJet vs BA, I would question the amount of "quality time" you are getting at home on a block of work at easyJet and therefore the relevance of being home every night. When I did it (at LGW) I remember a) not being able to make any plans for downtime on "days on" anyway because my roster would always change and b) being close to useless after coming home off early duties anyway. I accept it might be better at regional bases.

Let's be honest, whether it is coming home at 2am and crawling into bed when everyone else is asleep already, coming home at 2pm and falling asleep on the sofa, or being 4000 miles away in a hotel, the life of an airline pilot has it's challenges from a family perspective. It's just which of these challenges you find easiest to live with that matters.

[Jack the rabbit]

I’ve posted my thoughts on the “advice from easyjet Pilots” thread and then found this :)

I’m BA LH and have made the decision to leave after relentlessly riding the bike for just over two years. This thread has made cathartic reading. I realise I’m not the only one which makes me feel a little better :O. I’ve previosuly felt quite alone (probably what kept me here) in my thinking. Cultural view is a powerful thing in our profession, and the ethos that you should be happy in a perceived pinicle environment is a manipulating tonic.

But, ive come to realise I’m not the only one. It’s all personal from one person to another. To characterise, for me, even the lifestyle could be fantastic (it is not) and I’d still need to leave. I’m just unhappy here for a lot of reasons that only now I’m starting to get a handle on.

[monquay]

Hi guys,

reviving a fairly old thread now but trying to find out how peeps who have jumped BA to EZY are finding it? I am RHS A320 LHR and finding it not what I hoped for!

I am in the EZY hold pool now for a (hopefully) SFO LTN placement (they seemed quite certain I would be OK with that). I am not interested in Long haul (need to be at home as often as poss, disabled child at home), Inefficiency really winds me up and 1:15 drive each way is starting to aggravate an old back injury (LTN is only 25 mins away).

So questions wise,
1. Can EZY FO's really not park?! seems odd to me!
2. Can FO's call stop? surprised me during the sim check when the skipper took over the thrust levers on TO, hadn't seen that coming.
3. Is the atmosphere at Easy as relaxed as it seemed during the recruitment day?
4. How often do trips change on the roster? as a general rule I don't mind what I do on a particular day at work but I would like to know when i'm not working!
5. Hows LTN as a base?
6. Any other up to date factors which may influence my decision to take/ not take them up on an offer?

I have spoken to a few peeps and read the thread, just have this nagging doubt in the back of my head that going BA to EZY shouldn't make sense, but the evidence doesn't support it.

hope all well

[LlamaFarmer]

1. Can EZY FO's really not park?! seems odd to me!
Correct. PF taxis in after landing, and if that is the FO, then just approaching stand hands control to CM1 (Cpt) who parks, CM2 (FO, or RHS LTC) does the parking checklist and post-flight paperwork. Probably partly due to some of the guidance screens only being configured for the LHS, but mostly probably due to insurance costs given most FOs are pretty inexperienced compared to legacy/charter airlines. Exception to that is remote holding, which is holding not parking.

2. Can FO's call stop? surprised me during the sim check when the skipper took over the thrust levers on TO, hadn't seen that coming.
Also correct. FO calls what they see, captain makes the decision to Stop/Go. Exception being if there is a Trainer on the jump seat then they can also call stop if agreed with the operating captain agrees, or during command assessment at the end of command line training (where you fly with an ordinary FO in the RHS). Again, probably due to FO experience.

3. Is the atmosphere at Easy as relaxed as it seemed during the recruitment day? For the most part it's very relaxed, lots of brilliant people, really enjoyable days out.

4. How often do trips change on the roster? as a general rule I don't mind what I do on a particular day at work but I would like to know when i'm not working!
Roster stability can be hit and miss, but your days off are your days off, and you can refuse to operate into them (ie delayed duty on your last day of work, looks like it'll be landing at 1am, you can decline to work that duty). If you choose to, then you get a WIDO payment, either 1/2 rate or full rate (plus another day off) depending on how long into your day off. Often there'll be lots of roster instability in summer, but we have BALPA-agreed short notice change refusals... where we can reject a change within 48 hours if it's more than 2 hours different.

5. Hows LTN as a base?
Pass, I'm not based there.

6. Any other up to date factors which may influence my decision to take/ not take them up on an offer?
Joining as a DEC SFO, you'd be eligible to start the command process within 6 months of joining, so could realistically be in the LHS within a two years. No seniority to worry about, preferential bidding system for earlys/lates/nightstops/etc. Terms are always improving here, and fatigue management is getting better too, they're years ahead of other airlines on that one.



I'm hearing of several colleagues who left to BA who are regretting it and wanting to come back. Some got SH LGW, some got SH LHR, some got DEP LH. At least one of each wants to come back to EZY... I'd say up to 1/3 are not happy with their move!

[Polorutz]

So questions wise,
1. Can EZY FO's really not park?! seems odd to me!
2. Can FO's call stop? surprised me during the sim check when the skipper took over the thrust levers on TO, hadn't seen that coming.
3. Is the atmosphere at Easy as relaxed as it seemed during the recruitment day?
4. How often do trips change on the roster? as a general rule I don't mind what I do on a particular day at work but I would like to know when i'm not working!
5. Hows LTN as a base?
6. Any other up to date factors which may influence my decision to take/ not take and offer

1- It’s SOP for CM1 to park, I think it harkens back to when we had 737’s with the tiller only on the LHS. Current logic is that a lot of the parking aids are LHS only.

2- CM1 has the responsibility to call stop. The skipper is the only one with his hands on the thrust levers. As PM you can bring anything to CM1’s attention but the responsibility lies with CM1

3- I don’t know how things are in BA but we’re pretty relaxed in Orangeland.

4- After roster publication your days off are
sacred, they will not change and you have the ability to refuse certain changes to your schedule within 48 hours of your duty. If you opt for fixed roster you can extrapolate your days off for years in the future with the exception of the reserve months (2 a year) where you have flexible roster. Within your working days you can experience disruption but our fatigue management system is not punitive and can be used if you’re not feeling up to the task.

Can’t help you with 5 or 6 as I haven’t been LTN based or worked at BA. PM me if you have any more questions.

Kind Regards

Polo

LHS LGW

[BarryMG]

Originally Posted by monquay https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/610247-leaving-ba-low-cost-post10403891.html#post10403891)
1. Can EZY FO's really not park?! seems odd to me!
Correct. PF taxis in after landing, and if that is the FO, then just approaching stand hands control to CM1 (Cpt) who parks, CM2 (FO, or RHS LTC) does the parking checklist and post-flight paperwork. Probably partly due to some of the guidance screens only being configured for the LHS, but mostly probably due to insurance costs given most FOs are pretty inexperienced compared to legacy/charter airlines. Exception to that is remote holding, which is holding not parking.

2. Can FO's call stop? surprised me during the sim check when the skipper took over the thrust levers on TO, hadn't seen that coming.
Also correct. FO calls what they see, captain makes the decision to Stop/Go. Exception being if there is a Trainer on the jump seat then they can also call stop if agreed with the operating captain agrees, or during command assessment at the end of command line training (where you fly with an ordinary FO in the RHS). Again, probably due to FO experience.

3. Is the atmosphere at Easy as relaxed as it seemed during the recruitment day? For the most part it's very relaxed, lots of brilliant people, really enjoyable days out.

4. How often do trips change on the roster? as a general rule I don't mind what I do on a particular day at work but I would like to know when i'm not working!
Roster stability can be hit and miss, but your days off are your days off, and you can refuse to operate into them (ie delayed duty on your last day of work, looks like it'll be landing at 1am, you can decline to work that duty). If you choose to, then you get a WIDO payment, either 1/2 rate or full rate (plus another day off) depending on how long into your day off. Often there'll be lots of roster instability in summer, but we have BALPA-agreed short notice change refusals... where we can reject a change within 48 hours if it's more than 2 hours different.

5. Hows LTN as a base?
Pass, I'm not based there.

6. Any other up to date factors which may influence my decision to take/ not take them up on an offer?
Joining as a DEC SFO, you'd be eligible to start the command process within 6 months of joining, so could realistically be in the LHS within a two years. No seniority to worry about, preferential bidding system for earlys/lates/nightstops/etc. Terms are always improving here, and fatigue management is getting better too, they're years ahead of other airlines on that one. I'm hearing of several colleagues who left to BA who are regretting it and wanting to come back. Some got SH LGW, some got SH LHR, some got DEP LH. At least one of each wants to come back to EZY... I'd say up to 1/3 are not happy with their move!

Is this applicable (especially 3-6) to every EZY base, i.e. Malpensa? Atmosphere, time to command (realistically), short notice change refusal etc?

[UberPilot]

Is this applicable (especially 3-6) to every EZY base, i.e. Malpensa? Atmosphere, time to command (realistically), short notice change refusal etc?

Time to command is heavily base dependant. Portugal, LGW, LTN: Basically no wait and as soon as you meet the requirements and finish the assessments you’ll probably get something within 2 years.

MXP, NCE: A very long time... very!

[CW247]

Sorry for the thread drift... I genuinely thought EZY were the champion of Standard Airbus SOP, allowing the FO to taxi and park. Was it changed recently?. BTW, please could someone tell me exactly which stand parking guidance system is calibrated for the LHS. Looking at the history books of aviation, there was one and I haven't come across it in my 10 year career yet.

[FlyingStone]

BTW, please could someone tell me exactly which stand parking guidance system is calibrated for the LHS. Looking at the history books of aviation, there was one and I haven't come across it in my 10 year career yet.

A lot of airports have them. AGNIS, APIS, etc. Most of the parking have stop lines on the left side only as well.

[dirk85]

Is this applicable (especially 3-6) to every EZY base, i.e. Malpensa? Atmosphere, time to command (realistically), short notice change refusal etc?

Most rules are the same in Italy, but the contract is different. Roster, pension, part time, salary, rank and many other things are country dependant.
Money wise you are better off on the continent (France, Italy or Germany).

[Northern Monkey]

Sorry for the thread drift... I genuinely thought EZY were the champion of Standard Airbus SOP, allowing the FO to taxi and park. Was it changed recently?. BTW, please could someone tell me exactly which stand parking guidance system is calibrated for the LHS. Looking at the history books of aviation, there was one and I haven't come across it in my 10 year career yet.

Who cares who parks the aeroplane, really? Surely the terms and conditions of employment are a lot more important than SOP trivia.

[Stone Cold II]

AMS stop line and guidance is set up for LHS also. Who cares anyway? Shouldn’t base the job on who parks. Also don’t think the insurance covers the Fo. Personally I think it’s the best short haul job going. People are awesome and fairly relaxed across the network.

Never felt pressured with fuel decisions etc and on the odd occasion I have had to go fatigue in 15 years never questioned once. Preferential bidding for me personally has been superb.

[cumulustratus]

FO can sling it down the runway at 130 knots with a twenty knot crosswind but can’t taxi it in a straight line at 3 knots and apply a little gentle braking to stop when the guidance tells them to. Makes perfect sense to me (sic). If the guidance is for the LHS only then whats wrong with a transfer of control to park on stand at the limited number of airfields that that situation applies to? Not exactly a hard remedy to a non existent problem really.

I agree it’s not really a big deal in the greater scheme of things but its an absolutely pathetic SOP.

Great display of not knowing how to use the (sic) expression :rolleyes:

So to you it's not important, but important enough to label "pathetic"?

Maybe leave your house a bit more. There's an abundance of non aviation relqted things to stimulate your mind out there.

[VJW]

FO can sling it down the runway at 130 knots with a twenty knot crosswind but can’t taxi it in a straight line at 3 knots and apply a little gentle braking to stop when the guidance tells them to. Makes perfect sense to me (sic). If the guidance is for the LHS only then whats wrong with a transfer of control to park on stand at the limited number of airfields that that situation applies to? Not exactly a hard remedy to a non existent problem really.

I agree it’s not really a big deal in the greater scheme of things but its an absolutely pathetic SOP.

I find it amazing this is getting so much air time (and was even asked as question 1 in the first place). How many SOP's do we have to do, while thinking some are good, some are annoying and some seem pointless? Bottom line is we don't own these aircraft, we are paid a pretty decent wage to operate them exactly as our employer (who do own them) wants us to. Very simple really. Personally I don't find it half as annoying being handed control before turning on to stand as I would briefing for a monitored approach on every sector.....

[Callsign Kilo]

You don’t join an airline for its SOPs, I’m pretty sure of that one. If it were the case I doubt anyone would join BA (monitored approaches). That being said, I’m sure most take them their stride when they get there. Just my two cents

[LlamaFarmer]

Is this applicable (especially 3-6) to every EZY base, i.e. Malpensa? Atmosphere, time to command (realistically), short notice change refusal etc?

Bases vary.

But time to command should in theory be similar anywhere... if you're willing to move for your command.
Anyone who's an SFO in a small base (NCL etc) , or highly sought-after base (MXP), will be waiting (a very long time) for a captain to leave, or an aircraft to be added, for a command position to be available.
Anyone who is in a big base (LGW, LTN etc) with a high turnover, or is willing to move to one will not have to wait long for command once eligible for a course. Many will come to LGW for command and go onto the transfer list again to get back to where they want. Personal preference.


Short notice refusals are agreements between the company and the unions so will vary from country to country.

[CW247]

You don’t join an airline for its SOPs, I’m pretty sure of that one.

Speak for yourself. The SOP is what makes the job what it is. I've been at airlines with god awful SOPs where yabba yabba yabba and pointless box ticking and duplication is the order of the day and I've been at airlines with simple, smart SOPs where duplication is next to zero. Guess which one had more incidents? Some SOPs truly wear you down. And in an industry with so much else to wear you down, that matters. You're kidding yourself if you think other wise.

[cessnapete]

Speak for yourself. The SOP is what makes the job what it is. I've been at airlines with god awful SOPs where yabba yabba yabba and pointless box ticking and duplication is the order of the day and I've been at airlines with simple, smart SOPs where duplication is next to zero. Guess which one had more incidents? Some SOPs truly wear you down. And in an industry with so much else to wear you down, that matters. You're kidding yourself if you think other wise.


How complicated aviation SOPs has become!
In my time in Big Airways the pilot flying the sector took over at engine start, after normally being included in the pre flight fuel decisions etc. Personally I also briefed the Senior CC to discuss any inflight problems firstly with the P2 when flying the sector, as good pre command experience.
The whole flight was conducted from the appropriate seat, taxi ,flying to touchdown (prior to the introduction of the MA after the BEA merger) taxi in and parking. Obviously if the parking guidance was set up for the LHS then then handover took place at a convenient time near the Stand. On a P2 sector they also were able to call Stop on takeoff, his/hers hand remained on the thrust levers until V1. That SOP remains today.
The only P2 restrictions I remember were Cat 1 limits, and X wind limit 15/20kts I think, and of course the Capt. always carried out low vis approaches/Autolands. Also on my type, A/P off A/T off.

[FACoff]

To revive an old post, in part thanks to the current climate at BA, I'm wondering how many are still like minded to leave. I meet people on the jet bridge regularly who are at their wits end and I'm one of them.

If you're looking to leave, where to?

[MikeAlpha320]

TUI, EZY or VS.

[Buter]

AA, Delta, Clown school...

[wiggy]

Clown School...:eek: well that can take you places...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/27/passenger-in-clown-suit-prompts-mass-brawl-on-po-cruise-ship

[VinRouge]

You don’t join an airline for its SOPs, I’m pretty sure of that one. If it were the case I doubt anyone would join BA (monitored approaches). That being said, I’m sure most take them their stride when they get there. Just my two cents


monitored approaches actually make lots of sense, having seen a few go arounds now, much tidier and far less of a shock for the handling pilot to fly. After all, that’s what he has briefed, whereas the landing pilot is expecting to do that.

If I were going to nitpick an SOP that just is a bit odd, it’s the Non handling pilot selection of reverse.

I would much prefer to work for an outfit though that has an oddity like that though but trusts me as an experienced professional to pull the thrust levers from RHS or call stop as the heavy in the middle seat. Suppose it comes down to trust and experience.

[champair79]

Unless you’re on the Airbus where the handling pilot pulls reverse. The Airbus fleets now are very close to ‘Airbus standard SOPs’ with the major exception being the monitored approach.

champ

[DuctOvht]

monitored approaches actually make lots of sense, having seen a few go arounds now, much tidier and far less of a shock for the handling pilot to fly. After all, that’s what he has briefed, whereas the landing pilot is expecting to do that.

If I were going to nitpick an SOP that just is a bit odd, it’s the Non handling pilot selection of reverse.

I would much prefer to work for an outfit though that has an oddity like that though but trusts me as an experienced professional to pull the thrust levers from RHS or call stop as the heavy in the middle seat. Suppose it comes down to trust and experience.

Thread creep...

You might be able to ‘pull the thrust levers’ on the ground, but we aren’t trusted to use them in the air. QED.

You cannot call ‘stop’ as heavy, that SOP changed a long time ago. Perhaps a flick through the books might be in order?!

As you were...

[Northern Monkey]

I really don't get the fascination with minor variations around SOP's. Who cares? Really? The only things that matter at the end of the day are pay, lifestyle and job security. Who gets to use the thrust levers or park the aeroplane or call stop is absolutely and totally irrelevant.

Back to the thread.

The only places I would personally consider in the UK are BA, EZY or RYR. Anything else seems to me to be a gamble on long term job security. Bear in mind the "OP" is talking about leaving BA. They are not an unemployed cadet looking for their first job. However many years you have left, 10, 20, 30, 40, is anyone really confident that any other operator other than the three I have listed provide a decent shot at making it to retirement? Again I would emphasise that I say this in the context of someone gainfully employed at BA. You can afford to be picky and you must be.

Personally, I cannot imagine ever wanting to work for Ryanair. And the industrial landscape there is barely any better than at BA. You could argue it's worse. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

That leaves easyJet.

All IMHO, obviously.

[cessnapete]

monitored approaches actually make lots of sense, having seen a few go arounds now, much tidier and far less of a shock for the handling pilot to fly. After all, that’s what he has briefed, whereas the landing pilot is expecting to do that.

If I were going to nitpick an SOP that just is a bit odd, it’s the Non handling pilot selection of reverse.

I would much prefer to work for an outfit though that has an oddity like that though but trusts me as an experienced professional to pull the thrust levers from RHS or call stop as the heavy in the middle seat. Suppose it comes down to trust and experience.

All BA aircraft are 2 pilot flight crew. No checklists involve an augmented crew member. Stop can only be called by the P1/P2
Third and sometimes fourth crew are only carried when Duty Period requires augmented crew.
Also BA does not use partially qualified crew members as SOs. All P2 qualified for 2 crew operations.

[RexBanner]

To revive an old post, in part thanks to the current climate at BA, I'm wondering how many are still like minded to leave. I meet people on the jet bridge regularly who are at their wits end and I'm one of them.

If you're looking to leave, where to?

FACoff if you’re SH have you considered Gatwick? I was 3 years at Heathrow made the move to Gatters in January and I honestly haven’t been as happy in BA as I have since I moved. None of this JSS rubbish, no three week long reserve periods and skippers are far better to fly with, with very few exceptions. Plus you’ll jump in seniority compared to Heathrow. To be fair I’m still desperate for Long Haul but Gatwick is, in my opinion, a far nicer place to wait it out.

[Meester proach]

I’d agree that BA, easy and Ryanair are probably the most stable but having seen my mates low cost short haul roster in the orange one, it wouldn’t matter because I’d be dead or medical - less in under five years I reckon. That ain’t sustainable.

[Busdriver01]

I’d agree that BA, easy and Ryanair are probably the most stable but having seen my mates low cost short haul roster in the orange one, it wouldn’t matter because I’d be dead or medical - less in under five years I reckon. That ain’t sustainable.


This is something I’ve never really understood. Don’t BA 320 folk do 6 on /1 off 6 on? So is it just that you don’t start as early or finish as late? I can’t imagine feeling any less tired with a 2 hour wait in pret every day? Any more than a 40 minute turn and I’m losing the will ... I just want to get home!

[Jock Trapped]

This is something I’ve never really understood. Don’t BA 320 folk do 6 on /1 off 6 on? So is it just that you don’t start as early or finish as late? I can’t imagine feeling any less tired with a 2 hour wait in pret every day? Any more than a 40 minute turn and I’m losing the will ... I just want to get home!

How common is 6 on / 1 off though?

[VJW]

I’d agree that BA, easy and Ryanair are probably the most stable but having seen my mates low cost short haul roster in the orange one, it wouldn’t matter because I’d be dead or medical - less in under five years I reckon. That ain’t sustainable.

No idea what you’re on about. 10 years in Ryr and one now in Ezy and easy is quite literally what it is.

[Ollie Onion]

Don’t do it, BA is one of the best airline gig’s around. Every other airline getting mentioned here pale’s in comparison. Stick it out,

[Tay Cough]

Don’t do it, BA is one of the best airline gig’s around. Every other airline getting mentioned here pale’s in comparison. Stick it out,

Depends how you look at it. If you’re junior on SH in either seat, BA will work you harder for less money than the competition. If your goal is Longhaul, if you’re junior it’s not much better and VS is probably worth serious consideration. If you’re likely to see some seniority (which depends entirely on your demographic and the date you join), it may be worth it in the long run but no, it isn’t one of the best airline gigs around. Not by a long shot.

[Riskybis]

Don’t do it, BA is one of the best airline gig’s around. Every other airline getting mentioned here pale’s in comparison. Stick it out,

Haha !! Good joke !! I remember when I joined they said you are now the best pilots in the world, flying for the best airline !
Funny how the Nigel Doctrine works on some

[frozenpilot]

Ridiculous to say that BA,EZY and Ryanair will be the sole survivors... Im a BA Pilot and a realist!!

BA are hugely vulnerable to a third runway... The company benefits from a Heathrow monopoly. Loose that and the significant profits that go with it and IAG will look very differently at the setup! That’s if they don’t start to look at us differently regardless.

Also, we at BA have managed to see the loss of NAPS, bidline, seeded blindlines... As well as a myriad of other items that are starting to bite!! We are just as vulnerable as anyone long term ( especially Ts & Cts)... And certainly NOT the best gig in town... If you have the drive and sanity to last out the perils of JSS, a ridiculous seniority system and working out of the joy that is Heathrow... And live within suitable commuting distance... Then it’s competitive in the UK... But that’s it!!

[Meester proach]

No idea what you’re on about. 10 years in Ryr and one now in Ezy and easy is quite literally what it is.


You must be superman/ women then, or have started when you were 18 ( which is the upper limit I guess )These four sector days terminating at 0030, only to return at 1500 the same day and repeat.

Slavery.

[VJW]

You must be superman/ women then, or have started when you were 18 ( which is the upper limit I guess )These four sector days terminating at 0030, only to return at 1500 the same day and repeat.

Slavery.

I’m pushing 40 with a 2 year old and a newborn coming. Started mid/late 20’s. Slavery isn’t the word for what I do. I turned down BA long haul last year who offered me a contract with half the salary easyjet’s contract had written on it. One of the two valued my experience properly and paid me accordingly. I don’t regret it for a single moment, and I wouldn’t even go to BA if they opened up DEC.

If I genuinely feel fatigued I’d call up and let them know. The fallout of this would be nothing negative towards me but in the year I’ve been here I’ve not had to use this facility.

If you’ve been looking at an EJ roster compared to your own BA LH one then yes we work more days than you. Go compare ours to a BA SH one and come back to me.

I think some people are a little too precious.

[Vokes55]

To be fair, I'm not sure I'd consider £105k basic for a captain as being "paid accordingly", especially for the amount and type of work you do at easy. Every easy pilot I pass on the way to/from the car park looks like the walking dead - or certainly too tired for a polite "hello".

If lifestyle is what you're after, it sounds like neither easy or BA are the way to go.

[FlyboyUK]

I definitely work a lot less hard and feel a lot less tired at EZY than I ever did at RYR. EZY do have some pretty early starts/late finishes which can be tiring. I'm at the big London base and average around 700 hours a year. At RYR it was 900hrs every year. I've worked for a couple pf other airlines over my career and three years in at EZY I'm very happy with the move.

[VJW]

To be fair, I'm not sure I'd consider £105k basic for a captain as being "paid accordingly", especially for the amount and type of work you do at easy.

Funny how people look at things. BA offering a £59k basic to join and easy offered £104k. The roles are very different yes but my family don’t care which seat I sit on. I suggest you don’t look at the BA pay scales as well. The fact it takes 14 years on BA SH lgw to make the basic easy paid me the day I joined...... speaks volumes and it’s why threads like this crop up.

[Busdriver01]

I’ve heard of several people who left my outfit to join BA, did a few years, and then managed to walk back across the slightly burnt bridge, albeit on the lowest contract available at the time. For most who leave to BA its for the opportunity of long haul which is just never going to be a possibility here. For some it’s the thought that, in their early 20s, being in a loco forever more may not be the most “exciting” career (who’d have thought, maybe it really does benefit you to go and fly knackered old TPs With the auto throttle and only a basic Ap delivering mail for a few years?). I do have to question the logic of leaving a seniority based airline after only a few years (only 1 year in some cases) of SH flying with them before having tried LH, or gaining a bit of seniority but everyone’s situation is different.

As several people have already said, the fact this thread even exists is a worrying sign of the state of our industries Ts + Cs...

[cessnaxpilot]

I’ve heard of several people who left my outfit to join BA, did a few years, and then managed to walk back across the slightly burnt bridge, albeit on the lowest contract available at the time. For most who leave to BA its for the opportunity of long haul which is just never going to be a possibility here. For some it’s the thought that, in their early 20s, being in a loco forever more may not be the most exciting career (who’d have thought, maybe it really does benefit you to go and fly knackered old TPs With the auto throttle and only a basic Ap delivering mail for a few years?). I do have to question the logic of leaving a seniority based airline after only a few years (only 1 year in some cases) of SH flying with them before having tried LH, or gaining a bit of seniority but everyone’s situation is different.

As several people have already said, the fact this thread even exists is a worrying sign of the state of our industries Ts + Cs...

so I’m on the other side of the pond, but at 50 I have a bit of my own experience to impart. I was at a legacy here and I left to go to another legacy because I thought it would provide a better career path. Then 9-11 and then bankruptcy and the T&C were completely unsettling to me. I couldn’t imagine my career going this direction or staying with my airline under those conditions. I took a leave to fly a Citation X and then I went back to the legacy for a month before leaving to fly the “mail” as you say. I couldn’t imagine the legacy I was at would ever recover. So I left in 2007! Then the world economy collapsed in 2009 and I found myself at the bottom of the list at my new airline. Ha! The best laid plans.

I only offer this because sometimes the slow and steady is the way to go. Over an entire career T&C will change. What is hard to win is chasing bases, aircraft, upgrades, etc. I know the market in Europe is different than the US, but I am reading a lot of comments on time to upgrade and to get certain bases... it makes me pause. I know nothing about the state of BA, but I will say I never would have guessed my old legacy contract would bounce back like it did.

Sometimes the current schedule makes one think that they need to make some huge change as soon as possible. If they would have waited just a year or two it could look totally different. I’ve change aircraft and bases and at times it’s seemed like a totally different company and job. If SH is Bad, try LH. Tired of that? Go back to SH. It might take time to get the position you want, but options are great. Use caution with rash decisions based on how it looks today. Step back and have the long view.

I’m happy with my decision, and it’s been a great ride, but I would have been better served by staying put. Best of luck in your decision.

[Ollie Onion]

I left a major legacy carrier during tough times, contract getting screwed down, seniority not moving anywhere and lots of time away from home, having said that I left due to personal issues and needing to move to the other side of the world due to a family situation. Joined a LCC and got a command in 9 months and was home every night whilst earning more than my spot at the legacy carrier.... good times ;-) Fast forward 10 years and I am still in the Left Seat with said LCC, all of my mates at the legacy carrier also now have commands or very senior FO spots in longhaul and have good control over their lifestyles, they are earning more than me and their conditions I.e pension etc are out of my league. Now the LCC has gone backwards in terms of contract, in this respect all airlines are the same constantly screwing down terms, the roster now comprises 4 and 5 day trips as this is ‘more efficient’ for the company, not a day goes by that I wish I could have stayed with the Legacy carrier, at least there you get some reward for your years of service, at the LCC I am likely to lose my bid in any given month to a 1 day Captain as it is totally random, no one is happy and I can tell you multiple 4 sector domestic days for 10 years is more fatiguing than anything I did at the Legacy carrier. As stated above, be very careful about traded short term angst against your long term prospects, what I would give now just to be able to bid to a long haul fleet for a few years, BA may be a bit hard at times but in terms of fleet choice, work choice and career opportunities you probably won’t beat it.

[Googlebug]

It’s all about how your body can cope with Jet Lag and Red eyes combined.
If you find your a quick to recover and a natural night lark LH is great.
If your an Early Bird or struggle to get over jet lag LCC is for you.

At the end if the day money is very close. Yes at Legacy you’ll earn more eventually but the money you earn in the short term can be worth more with compounding, or debt paydown.

[frozenpilot]

There is merit to waiting your time, but I fear Ollie maybe missing the changes that have occurred over the past ten years where his friends have gained a good lifestyle. For example, PP34.. an extra ten years to get to the top of the tree now, so many joining in their thirties will enjoy only a couple of years. This coupled with the loss of NAPS to an industry competitive pension further reduces the significant benefits of a long term BA career.

Other things that must be considered (especially short haul) is the ‘Heathrow factor!’ Slot delays, 25 minute taxi times, holding inbound, waiting for stands, Aircraft and terminal swapping, 2 hour waits between flights in Pret. When you add these together over a 12 month period these add up to 10’s days of lost time ( or effective earnings ). You can also factor reserve periods into this. Considerable loss of earnings and stability can occur during your three week period of reserve. If you get unlucky and sit at the bottom of a fleet you will be enjoying plenty of reserve, regardless of weekend points. Compounded since the loss of fixed flight pay which was in existence when Ollie’s mates joined. Also, long haul are working hard, loss of back to backs due EASA makes life more difficult. Busy long haul fleets can often see five or more trips with just two days off in between. Being junior on certain fleets can be brutal, with reserve, weekend work and lack of roster control.

If you hit a sweet spot during a recruitment bulge and go in as a DEP to a long haul fleet, with 1 or 200 coming in under you on seniority, you may end up with a fairly comfortable lifestyle. However, the desire of management is to reduce lay over lengths ( short haul already enjoy many 12-14 nightstops ), address the hotel budget ( not a good thing when we spend our lives in them ). Who knows what else is to come??

BA is certainly still a decent career in the UK, but it has changed beyond recognition and our new union has a huge battle on their hands. To get to a point where you can control your roster ( tanks to JSS) and enjoy the ‘big bucks’ (PP34) is far longer than previous! Regional based flying with front loaded earnings certainly competes now, hence the frustrations of the many at BA and this thread. You certainly accept less career stability (well at the moment), but you are potentially going to enjoy a far greater work life balance ( something we take for granted whilst we young and have our health). With that said, if you can make BA work, on PP34... You may just earn more on a payslip over thirty years.

[bringbackthe80s]

This whole thread, starting from the title, is total nonsense.

[I'm Off!]

This whole thread, starting from the title, is total nonsense.

No, it's not. If you think it is, you clearly have no idea what junior life is like on 34PP scale at BA...

[Reversethrustset]

Funny how people look at things. BA offering a £59k basic to join and easy offered £104k. The roles are very different yes but my family don’t care which seat I sit on. I suggest you don’t look at the BA pay scales as well. The fact it takes 14 years on BA SH lgw to make the basic easy paid me the day I joined...... speaks volumes and it’s why threads like this crop up.


Spot on, VJW, I'm in exactly the same position as yourself. I'm left seat easy now instead of joining BA longhaul, I work hard and I get paid very well. It's all about expectation, the aviation jobs out there that are a cushy number these days are as rare as rocking horse sh*t. Most of the stress comes from perception and mindset, you just have to be happy with what you've signed on the dotted line for, like how many crew do we know that whinge their tits off when they get called from standby? A standby duty isn't a right to stay at home, you're being called for a duty you should have potentially been doing anyway, if you have the mindset that if you spend it at home it's a bonus then you'll be in a far better place mentally and more relaxed. Being stressed is more fatiguing than being relaxed, if your constantly stressing about a long week ahead then it'll affect you more. I didn't get home till 3am this morning and I have another long night ahead but I'm comfortable with it. I don't feel half as tired as I would if I was whining about it all the time. Pilots are the most highly strung fraternity I've ever known, take a chill pill guys.

[Plastic787]

VJW I get your sentiments but to be fair you can’t really compare a DEC easyJet position to a DEP one at BA financially. It’s fairly obvious that one is going to come out way ahead of the other and different qualifications/experience are required for each, hence it’s apples and oranges, particularly as one who is in a position to apply for Direct Entry Captain already has their command and a certain financial status and, by virtue of their decision to apply to apply for a BA DEP position, is presumably taking a longer term view of things than the immediacy of the first payslip.

[Meester proach]

Spot on, VJW, I'm in exactly the same position as yourself. I'm left seat easy now instead of joining BA longhaul, I work hard and I get paid very well. It's all about expectation, the aviation jobs out there that are a cushy number these days are as rare as rocking horse sh*t. Most of the stress comes from perception and mindset, you just have to be happy with what you've signed on the dotted line for, like how many crew do we know that whinge their tits off when they get called from standby? A standby duty isn't a right to stay at home, you're being called for a duty you should have potentially been doing anyway, if you have the mindset that if you spend it at home it's a bonus then you'll be in a far better place mentally and more relaxed. Being stressed is more fatiguing than being relaxed, if your constantly stressing about a long week ahead then it'll affect you more. I didn't get home till 3am this morning and I have another long night ahead but I'm comfortable with it. I don't feel half as tired as I would if I was whining about it all the time. Pilots are the most highly strung fraternity I've ever known, take a chill pill guys.

I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

[UberPilot]

I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

That’s the point though, if you relax and don’t get stressed about the inevitable slots and delays then perfectly fine! If I’ve got a block of earlier then I go to bed at 8 the Night before and then I’m not tired and actually enjoy the job!

[Riskybis]

That’s the point though, if you relax and don’t get stressed about the inevitable slots and delays then perfectly fine! If I’ve got a block of earlier then I go to bed at 8 the Night before and then I’m not tired and actually enjoy the job!

do you have kids ? Does your other half let you off for going to bed at 8pm ??

[VinRouge]

do you have kids ? Does your other half let you off for going to bed at 8pm ??


yep. Lie ins too after a long trip. It’s about management and fairness. I bring in the coin. She manages the household/kids. I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to have partners that don’t get the requirements of the job, seeming to think that staff travel, cheap luxury holidays and being in the top 3% of Uk household earnings happens support free from the other side of the relationship. If she is earning mega wonga too, why wouldn’t you get an au pair?

[RexBanner]

If you’re someone who can get straight to sleep at 8PM on an early (especially the first night) then you’re a very lucky man and, believe me, very much in the minority.

[Reversethrustset]

I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.

[Stone Cold II]

Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.
This sums it up.

[Twiglet1]

If you’re someone who can get straight to sleep at 8PM on an early (especially the first night) then you’re a very lucky man and, believe me, very much in the minority.
Rex - Pilots don't adapt to earlie's, late's or nights - much like everyone else you "manage" by using a host of strategies. There's a lot of science out there to suggest the second early/late/night is worse because having had (ranging from not a lot to a lot) of days off before you bring some sleep "bank" into your first duty.

I don't want to come over too harsh but if your a commuter (I believe you are) your already on the back foot, and unlike a couple of recent posters - your keep letting your head be full of negativity. As my old DFO once said when i complained to him that how come Nigel's (not BA) get £xxx for working one minute into a day off and I got jack all for working 12 hours on a day off - his reply was "go be a Pilot" - So.....

[CEJM]

I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

This reply only shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Having been at EZY now for the last 18 months, I am far from being flogged to death. So far I average just shy of 700 hours for the rolling 12 month period.

Also due to the preferential bidding I tend to only do early flights and two sector days. In general I leave home between 4 and 5am and am back home around 1pm. In my book that is far from being flogged to death. Yes, I do the occasional 4 sector day but on average not more then two per month. In my previous company I would normally fly close to 900 hours a year and most of these were Canaries, Turkey, Cyprus or Egypt so long days out.

[Gingerbread Man]

Where do you get top 3% UK household from?
My misses brings in over £100k me around £50k but we don’t feel well of at all!!!

Institute for Fiscal Studies website puts you and your partner in the top 1% of UK households, never mind 3%. You may not feel well off, but you certainly are. Obviously it depends how much of that income is disposable and what choices you’ve made.

[pitotheat]

CEJM You have been with EZY for 18 months. You know nothing about the long term effects. If you were a member of BALPA you would be aware of the alarming statistics.

[PPRuNeUser0204]

Over 15 years in and yet to suffer burnout. Yes I am tired, but I am not fatigued. When it becomes too much I just call in fatigued.

Yes on earlies I go to bed at 8pm and I have school age children.

[er340790]

Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.

You should consider writing a 'Self-Help Guide for Pilots'. :O :} :ok:

[VinRouge]

Yeah I wish I could do that.
My my son doesn’t sleep before 8pm.

Where do you get top 3% UK household from?
My misses brings in over £100k me around £50k but we don’t feel well of at all!!!
why does your son going to bed after 8pm affect when you go to bed, or what time you get up? As I said, get an au pair in. Double mega salary requires sacrifice. That’s what we get paid mega bucks for.

i suspect another family chained to the south east rat race. Couldn’t do it myself.

[VinRouge]

Given that junior BA short haul (LHS or RHS) is not competitive in any way, I guess we are comparing long haul (BA) to loco short haul. And the health effects of working through the night + jet lag, are proven far far worse than getting up early (especially once you get into the early/late groove. Being in your bed in the wee small hours of the night are crucial to health.

how many hours controlled/in flight rest do you get on Shorthaul?

[Rocket Ron]

As an EZY lifer skipper having just reached 60 I can tell you that the long days just get harder and harder and for us LCC guinea pigs, burn out is a fact, as the 75% of skippers at my base who are part time will testify.

IMHO it’s not just an EZY thing but a fact of life for airline pilots these days. Skin cancer, enlarged prostate, chronic fatigue etc etc are all things you young pups have got to look forward to, trust me.

The advice I give to the youngsters I fly with - get your command, pay off your debts and go part time - then the job is fantastic.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys have you had a good look at the EASA FTL?? I ask again, have you seen the EASA FTL??? And still people are here lecturing on how to be in bed by 8 p.m!
Unreal.

[cessnaxpilot]

On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)

[Buter]

On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)



12-15 days a month would be a part time contract at BA. Even for a part timer (75%), 12 days would be a light month; probably not possible without leave.

B

[Dupre]

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time.

I'm new in BA, directly onto long haul. The two months I've had of completely normal roster (no leave or reserve etc) have both been 18 days at work. Both those months have had 5 trips of 3-5 days each plus one month had 2 sim days.

The part time seems to be working the opposite way from how you suggest... more senior pilots seem to be part time as they can no longer handle full time work. Not too many young part timers that I have met. That's just my impression!

BA works well for me personally, much more than a LCC but you can't deny I would be on a lot more money at a LCC - as others have said it will take 14 years to even equal the basic pay of an EZY skipper.

[Denti]

On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)

It seems to be kinda common. In germany it is actually a basic workers right to get part time if requested. That can be restricted somewhat by a CLA, for example with quotas depending on "operational needs". Where i work we use a fixed roster, 5 days on, 3 off, 5 days on, 4 off. That is full time. Common part time choices are 7/7, 7 days off and 7 days on including at least one rest/off day and 14/14, 14 days off, a 14 day working block with 9 working days and another 5 rest/off days. The 7/14 days off are planned in a row. On a full time roster i fly around 50 to 60 block hours a month with around double that in duty time during summer, less in winter. And that is LCC work, but a tad lower on hours than most other bases as we do fly a lot of 50 minute domestic sectors.

[FlightDetent]

n.b. also that the EU-wide law on mobile workers in aviation prescribes a minimum of:
- 4 weeks (24x7) of paid holiday
- plus 96 off days
for every calendar year.

That is the mathematical equivalent of all annual weekend days after having subtracted the 4 weeks of leave. No OFFs for national/bank holidays. Spread evenly over a year (not a realistic scenario), that leaves almost exactly 20 days for duties in each of the months. Thus 75% part-time yields 15 workdays on a long term average - no charity, just crunching numbers.

[cessnaxpilot]

n.b. also that the EU-wide law on mobile workers in aviation prescribes a minimum of:
- 4 weeks (24x7) of paid holiday
- plus 96 off days
for every calendar year.

That is the mathematical equivalent of all annual weekend days after having subtracted the 4 weeks of leave. No OFFs for national/bank holidays. Spread evenly over a year (not a realistic scenario), that leaves almost exactly 20 days for duties in each of the months. Thus 75% part-time yields 15 workdays on a long term average - no charity, just crunching numbers.

for the four weeks vacation, does that mean... for example... that if in a normal month you work 15 days, so you use 2 weeks of vacation and now you’re basically off for a month?

[simmple]

Thread drift!
when I went part time my flying/duty hours increased, the part time guys were rostered the long days but got more days off, invariably starting on the earlies and finishing on the lates. The full time guys got the cushy duties.
Europe short haul.

[Twiglet1]

As an EZY lifer skipper having just reached 60 I can tell you that the long days just get harder and harder and for us LCC guinea pigs, burn out is a fact, as the 75% of skippers at my base who are part time will testify.

IMHO it’s not just an EZY thing but a fact of life for airline pilots these days. Skin cancer, enlarged prostate, chronic fatigue etc etc are all things you young pups have got to look forward to, trust me.

The advice I give to the youngsters I fly with - get your command, pay off your debts and go part time - then the job is fantastic.

Not just Airline Pilots but many people have worked a life time of shifts - particularly night shift workers and all the negatives that go with it. I'm sure also a few of the Airline Pilots who are part time will appreciate these folk don't have the benefits of part time. There is always someone worse off.

[VJW]

Not just Airline Pilots but many people have worked a life time of shifts - particularly night shift workers and all the negatives that go with it. I'm sure also a few of the Airline Pilots who are part time will appreciate these folk don't have the benefits of part time. There is always someone worse off.

Indeed ~ 97% earning a tiny fraction of an airline pilots salary.

My advice to the OP would be to get command in BA on the 320 then apply to places as a DEC rather than a DEP. Quick upgrades aren’t guaranteed at a new airline and while that’ll be the aim, what you’re actually doing is swapping BA LH FO for FO SH loco somewhere in the hope you’ll a) get a quick upgrade opportunity and b) pass the course. I’d wait until I had upgraded on SH in BA first and see what options are available then...