JULY 2018 ROSTERS

[Turbokite]

Curious how your July rosters are? with the new 3 man ops on ULR and an expected busy summer schedule.

Never been the one to complain a lot, but i get 6 days leave and they somehow Managed to squeeze an 86 hour Roster.

Happy days!!:ugh:

[TooLow]

104hrs (A380). Insane. And can't swap anything of course due to all those restrictions and roster compression.

A "tad short" of pilots the boss says...what a joke!

[fatbus]

Did STC say all fixed by this fall or just the fall , 2019/2020 or maybe 2021��

[dustyflightdeck]

89 hrs, somehow a decrease from June.... Doesn't make any sense to me.

[desert witch]

100+ hours. Middle bid, quite broad biddings used, and nothing awarded. Didn't even try swapping...
Keep Rowing

[alwayzinit]

Mid bid, total roster bid grant 0%.
Bidding is now an exercise in futility.

[felixthecat]

Over the 90 mark again.....

[theexperiment]

38 sectors and 86hrs. Boeing 737

[flareflyer]

well
The only way to show there is a problem is bringing up the problem itself.
Remove one pairing from the rosters each one of you.
Reserve crew will cover what it is possible and beyond that.........its not our concern.......
Otherwise don't complain and keep rowing.......

[glofish]

well
The only way to show there is a problem is bringing up the problem itself.
Remove one pairing from the rosters each one of you.
Reserve crew will cover what it is possible and beyond that.........its not our concern.......
Otherwise don't complain and keep rowing.......



Totally agree. No complaints on here, no letter to TCT (with a silly answer ...), not to mention any other Sancho Panza to the sick Quixote in the bouncy castle will work.
Only personal roster amendment will retain your sanity and force some consequences.

Otherwise don't complain and keep on rowing ......

[The Outlaw]

Totally agree. No complaints on here, no letter to TCT (with a silly answer ...), not to mention any other Sancho Panza to the sick Quixote in the bouncy castle will work.
Only personal roster amendment will retain your sanity and force some consequences.

Otherwise don't complain and keep on rowing ......

That path was tried by many as a revolt when TCAS increased the hours years ago. The monthly culling of a flight lead many to have their self certifications privileges revoked and others had a trip to see one of the company doctors who took a sick interest in sending you for sleep apnea testing or further blood work to see why one couldn't perform at 95 hours without complaint.

You must remeber that to EK you are nothing more than a part of a machine, if you wear out or fail then you will be replaced. Its really quite simple. Yes, there have been exceptions where they have been helpful in special circumstances - but revolting by pressing 2 will not be one of them.

[glofish]

Certainly Outlaw. But ......

(Extract from OMA):
​​​​​​Flight duty is prohibited when a crew member’s capacity for work is reduced because of illness or general physical condition. Decrease of fitness includes the effects of disease, injury, alcohol, drugs, fatigue, etc.

In case of inquiry (inquisition) simply refer to the above

(Extract from the OMA):
Decrease of fitness under the influence of mental stress may also occur. It is the responsibility of the crew member to decide whether or not he is fit for flight duty in such circumstances.

In case of harassment as you described, refer to the above

We need balls to point at the legal defences that are available. Just pressing 2 is not what i meant. Calling in sick or fatigued (better) must be accompanied by valid arguments.
Imagine making a mistake under fatigue or stress, it will not hold as a defence, they'll be all over you with above articles if you invoke fatigue or mental company stress.
Look after yourself guys.

[GKOC41]

Curious how your July rosters are? with the new 3 man ops on ULR and an expected busy summer schedule.

Never been the one to complain a lot, but i get 6 days leave and they somehow Managed to squeeze an 86 hour Roster.

Happy days!!:ugh:

Am i missing something the usual moaning and bitching normally starts about a week before the end of the month - its the 16th....

[donpizmeov]

And file an ASR if your roster/pattern causes fatigue. Write to TCT and provide your roster and your bid receipt if you think the manual insertion brigade have been at work. We need everyone to provide the evidence that the system doesn't work
Without lots of data nothing is going to change.

[givemewings]

Hopefully you lot will get a better reply to submitting your patterns than 'The FMS software says the pattern is fine, so you can fly it' which is the stock standard reply CC get when querying questionable rosters/trips.

Also if you do the above they then in some cases come back at you with every time you used your company discount card on days off, down to the time of day/night and ask why you were not resting then if you are so 'tired' (they have no clue honestly)

But I agree circling back to the OM-E mandating requirement to be fit for duty usually gets them off your case for a while at least.

[Rainman7]

AS was asked why we used Assumed temperature takeoff method, and him pontificating about how its so important to not run the engines at max to save wear and tear, but when asked why they run pilots at max into the ground rostering, his face turned into MR. Evil. You are a slave, and slaves don’t ask they do. This is the culture at EK, burn you out spit you out, and repeat, however they are running out of borgs to replace the burnouts with.

[bounce'em all]

Ladies and gentlemen,

there is only one way to change your rosters: ******* leave that **** hole.
I understand all the constraints, but trust me: I was one of you. It can be done. You don’t need money that bad. Otherwise, as it’s been said ad nauseam, shut up and keep rowing.

[gardenshed]

What he said.
It isn't going to improve in anything like the short to medium term.
Cut your cloth accordingly, all the money in the world is no good to you once you're six feet under at an early age having maintained the crazy schedules and rosters.
I'm working my passage out of here, a far less glamorous job awaits, but its far less flying over the yearly period and means I might even see something of a retirement in later years.

[Easy Peasy]

Nobody thinks it will happen to them but long haul flying and the scheduled at Emirates will lower your life expectancy. What would anyone guess? Maybe 30 days for every year you work for EK? A 15 year career would then end your life 450 days early... it doesn’t seem like much, but when you figure in the years lost living in Dubai and away from family and friends it can begin to add up.

Worldwide, the average life expectancy at birth was 70.5 years (68 years and 4 months for males and 72 years and 8 months for females) over the period 2010–2015 according to United Nations World Population Prospects 2015 Revision.

For a guy in his early 50’s, you’re looking at maybe 15 more years not working for EK. If you subtract out another year and 1/2... it isn’t much.

We all only get so much time. Pick and choose carefully how you use it.

[SOPS]

Go home and enjoy what life you have left. If you went to the clinic and they said ... you have 3 years left to live... would you stay in Dubai??? If the answer is no, then have a think about things. ( My opinion only)

[Timpsi]

Get out of that place. It's not worth it! The money is to no use when you're exhausted before retirement and have no joy of life left because of the years & years running at max capacity (and more) at EK. Now, I'm not a pilot at EK but know several who are down in the Sand Pit, and just hearing what is happening at EK is frightening. It's just getting worse and worse and it doesn't look to bright in the near future either. It's a shame they've run the company down this road too.

Get out of there, spend time with your family and friends, enjoy life. Do the little things you never had time to do while living in Dubai. Enjoy that morning coffee more often, have a quiet dinner more often. We don't live forever, the money at EK is not that important. You'll regret not leaving now in a few years when you realize your kid is 3 years older and you barely noticed what happend in between those years. I really encourage all of you who feel like s**t, constantly being treated as s**t and not living the life you dreamed of, to leave Dubai and seek new adventures which will bring more value to your lives.

We don't live forever, so make the most of it while you can. Don't get stuck where you're not happy. Ever. Best of luck to you all!!

[paule737]

Get out of that place. It's not worth it! The money is to no use when you're exhausted before retirement and have no joy of life left because of the years & years running at max capacity (and more) at EK. Now, I'm not a pilot at EK but know several who are down in the Sand Pit, and just hearing what is happening at EK is frightening. It's just getting worse and worse and it doesn't look to bright in the near future either. It's a shame they've run the company down this road too.

Get out of there, spend time with your family and friends, enjoy life. Do the little things you never had time to do while living in Dubai. Enjoy that morning coffee more often, have a quiet dinner more often. We don't live forever, the money at EK is not that important. You'll regret not leaving now in a few years when you realize your kid is 3 years older and you barely noticed what happend in between those years. I really encourage all of you who feel like s**t, constantly being treated as s**t and not living the life you dreamed of, to leave Dubai and seek new adventures which will bring more value to your lives.

We don't live forever, so make the most of it while you can. Don't get stuck where you're not happy. Ever. Best of luck to you all!!

Could not agree more... Life is simply too short!

Very well written.

[dustyflightdeck]

All very true. Wife and I have made the call as we are now in home country enjoying fresh air, nature and other little things. Big wake up call!

[The Outlaw]

Certainly Outlaw. But ......

(Extract from OMA):
​​​​​​Flight duty is prohibited when a crew member’s capacity for work is reduced because of illness or general physical condition. Decrease of fitness includes the effects of disease, injury, alcohol, drugs, fatigue, etc.

In case of inquiry (inquisition) simply refer to the above

(Extract from the OMA):
Decrease of fitness under the influence of mental stress may also occur. It is the responsibility of the crew member to decide whether or not he is fit for flight duty in such circumstances.

In case of harassment as you described, refer to the above

We need balls to point at the legal defences that are available. Just pressing 2 is not what i meant. Calling in sick or fatigued (better) must be accompanied by valid arguments.
Imagine making a mistake under fatigue or stress, it will not hold as a defence, they'll be all over you with above articles if you invoke fatigue or mental company stress.
Look after yourself guys.

I agree with you 100% and I'm aware of the OMA as well. What they will do is ignore the first few times you call SKF. After that they will start to ask questions, send you for tests and find out if you have some health issue, probably send you for sleep apnea testing (at your expense) and worst of all, they start to involve themselves in your personal life, resting habits etc. My point being that if you are dropping flights because you just don't want to fly 100 hours and you are otherwise healthy then that is where the circus will begin. Some guys run a business on the side in DXB, if this is part of the underlying cause for fatigue then they might suggest you choose one or the other. Again, in their world, they EXPECT you to work the hours, if you can't then they will find those who can, even if its for 5-7 years.

[The Outlaw]

And file an ASR if your roster/pattern causes fatigue. Write to TCT and provide your roster and your bid receipt if you think the manual insertion brigade have been at work. We need everyone to provide the evidence that the system doesn't work
Without lots of data nothing is going to change.

Its been done by many and on numerous occasions. The reply? "The roster is legal".

[The Outlaw]

All very true. Wife and I have made the call as we are now in home country enjoying fresh air, nature and other little things. Big wake up call!

Just a few more trips to go!!

[Monarch Man]

Its been done by many and on numerous occasions. The reply? "The roster is legal".

To which my reply has been.

”Thank you xxxxx for your considered response, as you state the roster is indeed “legal” on the basis of your narrow interpretation. As I’m sure you are well aware fatigue issues are specific to individuals and manifest themselves in a variety of well understood symptoms, moreover, the basis for the current approved FTL scheme is based on generic data with no provision or consideration given to events or circumstances beyond being able to achieve optimal amounts of rest before and after a duty period.
Fortunately as part of the approved FTL scheme the provision exists for the individual who feels unfit for duty to utilise the fatigue provision as appropriate.
Thank you once again for your response, I am anticipating that the 4 days of rest recommended by my AME will be sufficient to allow me to recover from the roster as flown and published.

[GKOC41]

To which my reply has been.

”Thank you xxxxx for your considered response, as you state the roster is indeed “legal” on the basis of your narrow interpretation. As I’m sure you are well aware fatigue issues are specific to individuals and manifest themselves in a variety of well understood symptoms, moreover, the basis for the current approved FTL scheme is based on generic data with no provision or consideration given to events or circumstances beyond being able to achieve optimal amounts of rest before and after a duty period.
Fortunately as part of the approved FTL scheme the provision exists for the individual who feels unfit for duty to utilise the fatigue provision as appropriate.
Thank you once again for your response, I am anticipating that the 4 days of rest recommended by my AME will be sufficient to allow me to recover from the roster as flown and published.
Monarch Man
To my understanding non of the bio-mathematical sleep predictive models can handle cumulative fatigue (some not at all) so on paper you're comments are solid. I suspect also there is a lack of data specific to EK Operations which any proper FRMS would need.

[Monarch Man]

Monarch Man
To my understanding non of the bio-mathematical sleep predictive models can handle cumulative fatigue (some not at all) so on paper you're comments are solid. I suspect also there is a lack of data specific to EK Operations which any proper FRMS would need.

No FRMS in existence can adequately predict true fatigue, it is a fudge of language and terminology to satisfy regulatory pressure in a litigation prone environment, hence the individual responsibility to be deemed to be fit. In essence if you go to work you are by your actions considered not to be fatigued should anything happen, worse still, if it is determined you are indeed fatigued it is likely then that you will be considered culpable in some form.

[IHEK]

The only way to have the rosters change is reporting fatigued guys and girls.

Once a percentage of fatigue reports are received, normally around 20% the company through the FRMS system have to make changes to that duty or pairing.

If you’re sceptical about reporting fatigued because you’ve listened to the bulls**t rumours about being dragged in by management, enjoy your 100+ rosters till you leave EK.

[High Energy]

July is looking pretty sweet. 16 days off, 81 hrs in mostly long day flights, 2 stby days and a block of almost 6 consecutive days off. Max hours, no leave. Not bad!

[glofish]

The only way to have the rosters change is reporting fatigued guys and girls.

Once a percentage of fatigue reports are received, normally around 20% the company through the FRMS system have to make changes to that duty or pairing.

If you’re sceptical about reporting fatigued because you’ve listened to the bulls**t rumours about being dragged in by management, enjoy your 100+ rosters till you leave EK.




IHEK: Agree 100%.

[JAARule]

Go home and enjoy what life you have left. If you went to the clinic and they said ... you have 3 years left to live... would you stay in Dubai??? If the answer is no, then have a think about things. ( My opinion only)

SOPS are you still driving trains? There's some guy ex-airlines (airbus, no doubt, one of those euro types!) now driving the Glacier Express in Schweitzerland. you've started a trend!

[SOPS]

Sure am!!! Would love to have a drive of the Glacier Express!!!!

[Voodoo 3]

July is looking pretty sweet. 16 days off, 81 hrs in mostly long day flights, 2 stby days and a block of almost 6 consecutive days off. Max hours, no leave. Not bad!

Me too! Very similar, 77 hours, 15 off, one standby and two blocks of four off. I really don’t know what this lot are complaining about.
Oh, wait a minute HE, we both work on the other side of the runways......😉

[High Energy]

Me too! Very similar, 77 hours, 15 off, one standby and two blocks of four off. I really don’t know what this lot are complaining about.
Oh, wait a minute HE, we both work on the other side of the runways......😉

Correct! 😁👍🏼 It's not an EK specific thread so why not share the love...😉

[motley flight crue]

You guys seriously boasting about Fly Dubai.

[High Energy]

You guys seriously boasting about Fly Dubai.

What's wrong with that? No airline is perfect and neither is flydubai. Each to their own and if it works for you then good on you. I'm not complaining about flydubai is all I'm saying. And that's as an PIC.

And yes, I did think about joining EK but I've been following the EK thread(s) for a loooong time now, and talking to friends over there it's put me of for life. Just my personal choice. Plus it's actually quite allright without fatigue and sleeping in my own bed every day. Yes I make less money and have less perks or end of service benefits. C'est la vie.

[agolmefudeu]

Me too! Very similar, 77 hours, 15 off, one standby and two blocks of four off. I really don’t know what this lot are complaining about.
Oh, wait a minute HE, we both work on the other side of the runways......��


67 hours + 10 Sim Hours, 13 days OFF, 1 STBY, home everyday.... Living the dream.

[gardenshed]

High Energy, if you think 81 hours in the remaining 15 days is sweet, there is no hope. :ugh:
I just hope that your post is sarcasm and not a positive.

[Emma Royds]

But that only equates to an average of around five and a half block hours for each of those fifteen days. Seniority at FlyDubai does seem to enable one to generally avoid night flying, if one wishes and I would happily do 81 hours of day flying spread over 15 days than doing slightly less hours, with the classic EK mix of day and night flying.

Each to their own I guess. :ok:

[whatsyourbeef]

Is anyone willing to share a 777 roster for July?

[Fuzuma]

RHS Tractor, 2nd bottom bid:
83 hours
3 out of 3 bids awarded
10 days off

No complaints

[The Outlaw]

RHS Tractor, 2nd bottom bid:
83 hours
3 out of 3 bids awarded
10 days off

No complaints

Both fleets have traditionally had lower time rosters for the RHS versus LHS. That has changed on the 380 now and RHS pilots are now seeing rosters squarely in the 90-95 hour territory, some even more. Rumor is that they will crank up the hours RHS 777 as well in a bid to make all pilots as cost effective as possible...don't shoot the messenger, just what I was told on a visit to the 3rd floor one day.

[High Energy]

High Energy, if you think 81 hours in the remaining 15 days is sweet, there is no hope. :ugh:
I just hope that your post is sarcasm and not a positive.

Why would that be sarcasm? So yes it was meant as a positive, a big one actually. Especially for a peak summer roster without annual leave. When you look at it it's only about 5.4hrs per day. Or 3hrs one way, 2.5 back to DXB and I'm done. It's actually closer to 4hrs each way cause of a daytime double sector GCC turn thrown in there but who's counting.

Only 2 short-ish night turns in a block of 8 days, 2 long nights but back well before sunrise so it's ok, 2 blocks of 3 OFF and a block of nearly 6 OFF. Rest is all daytime and nice hours. What's there to complain about?

I'm senior but not even that senior. I've seen junior Captains roster who don't bid at all that are actually surprisingly good.

Each to their own indeed. :ok:

[CitationTen]

WHAT AIRLINE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? This is the MIDDLE EAST FORUM!!! for cryin out load

Curious how your July rosters are? with the new 3 man ops on ULR and an expected busy summer schedule.

Never been the one to complain a lot, but i get 6 days leave and they somehow Managed to squeeze an 86 hour Roster.

Happy days!!:ugh:

[Turbokite]

@Citation, my sincere apologies for arrogantly assuming the middle eastern forum is synonymous to EK.

It's just that the majority of the posters and topics tend to be EK based. Threads can easily be muddled.

All the same I/we wouldn't mind knowing how hard our colleagues from across are working as well. or Not. ;)

[Monarch Man]

Mid Bid John Deere (777) LHS
79 hrs.

2 x Far East
1 x ULR
1 x day turn
1 x Cargo trip
13 days off
2 x rest days (midnight 30 finishes)
3 weekends off

Almost civilised, now if only those 13 in a row off were consecutive.

[whatsyourbeef]

Mid Bid John Deere (777) LHS
79 hrs.

2 x Far East
1 x ULR
1 x day turn
1 x Cargo trip
13 days off
2 x rest days (midnight 30 finishes)
3 weekends off

Almost civilised, now if only those 13 in a row off were consecutive.



Am I allowed to suggest that this sounds pretty reasonable or are only negative comments welcome here?

[cerbus]

Am I allowed to suggest that this sounds pretty reasonable or are only negative comments welcome here?

Working 18 days a month for Long Haul is civilized? Good God man there is no hope for us. We deserve everything we get.
Have you seen how many days Long Haul pilots work at LH, AF, or DL? Maybe 10-11 days a month and your happy with 18 days a month.
Pilots like you are a contributing factor for why so many of EK pilots are leaving. The ones that have left know it s never going to get better and probably much worse when the company knows it has pilots like Beef who are so willing to bend over and when they do bend over love the dry penetration.

[dustyflightdeck]

Wow 79hrs what's the secret?

[the_stranger]

Have you seen how many days Long Haul pilots work at LH, AF, or DL? Maybe 10-11 days a month and your happy with 18 days a month.
Well.... My roster is from the 25th till the 22nd and contains 15 working days totalling 66 blockhours. This however includes 2 days given because they had to compensate me for earlier things regarding rostering rules and two flights which include 1 and 2 days extra layover due to no daily flights.
So without those days, 17-18 working days are not really that abnormal in the area you describe (western europe, where I work (legacy carrier)).
The difference is that such a roster would be considered busy here, as at EK it's probably an easy month....

[BigGeordie]

That roster would be practically part time at EK, never mind an easy month.

[Uberkoberking]

89 hours
14 days off
and only 2 night turnarounds

from the lcc based out of SHJ

[crazypilot]

Orange LCC in UK - July roster

54 hours
3 Standby days
Sim (2 days)
14 days off (in blocks of 3 and 4)
...and still enjoy it ;-)

[Eau de Boeing]

Ah but crazypilot which base?

Bet you can even print your roster off and put it on the fridge ;-)

[Wingman82]

Left ek this year - happy and no regrets that I left. The ONLY one thing I miss is the 777... The fact that every second or third flight is not a night flight anymore changed my life. Arrogance has ruined many big companies and even countries.

[Big Enos Burdette]

56 hours in 13 days. My fault for taking summer leave.:rolleyes:

[Xulu]

58 in 11 days

not something I want to win

[Monarch Man]

Tractor LHS
72.4 hrs
3 freighter trips
2 local turns
7 day rostered block off
Second top bid

I’m a bit shocked and checked my roster 4 or 5 times.

[General Dogsbody]

380 LHS 106.25...

[SOPS]

380 LHS 106.25...


That is simply not normal for any airline. Let alone a long haul one that markets itself as a prestige airline/ employer.

[Voodoo 3]

For August over at FZ and I have 65 hours with 20 days off including 5 leave days. One night flight there, if you count off duty at 0130 as a night duty that is.

Yeah the 737 won’t snap any knicker elastic at 20 paces but the lifestyle sure is sweet as a nut.

We are hiring, just saying....��

[flyaway777]

777 LHS
98hrs with 9 days off in blocks of 1 or 2 as usual.
July roster similar.
It's completely unsustainable.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Tractor, LHS.

Just the 90 hours, a day in groundschool and a couple of sims.

Totally unsustainable and unhealthy. If I feel unfit now I just press 2 and go SF. To be fair, I haven't been invited for a 'productivity chat' or referred to the docs yet. Just as well really as that would mean Emirates having to manage the roster without me 365 days a year, every year.

[cerbus]

3 weeks leave and 42 hrs flying. I checked 3-4 times to make sure and yes it’s true.
777 LHS
Is there anybody here who still likes EK? Unbelievable how f$&ked up this place is.

[voice_of_peace]

10 days leave
60 hours
777

[Mr Angry from Purley]

For August over at FZ and I have 65 hours with 20 days off including 5 leave days. One night flight there, if you count off duty at 0130 as a night duty that is.

Yeah the 737 won’t snap any knicker elastic at 20 paces but the lifestyle sure is sweet as a nut.

We are hiring, just saying....��
Thats almost part time. Daft question but why not drop a few days off and throw some standbys in

[TriesToFly]

Thats almost part time. Daft question but why not drop a few days off and throw some standbys in

Because this is rather exceptional. Most guys don't touch anywhere near 20off, 11/12 seems to be the norm however.
I'm all for a little positivity, but let's stay a little realistic.
​​​

[Turbokite]

Overlapping Leave, 14 days ALV in August, RTGS and two sim days plus 42 hours of flying.

I guess this is merciful compared to July!!

[positive stability]

Just been staying with my brother-in-law LHS 777.
July 102 hours, 3 turns and 1 ULR.
August 100 hours, 1 turn and no ULR's.
Both months every second flight with the exception of one is between the hours of 10pm and 6am. He was in top two bid months and got one request for each month.
Soul destroying and unsustainable and for his family having a real negative effect on them all. This is a consistently badly managed company and consistently getting worse year on year. It's also not hard to understand the large turnover of middle management, the article about being hit by the pilot shortage could also be apt for a middle management shortage as well. :ugh:

[nakbin330]

John Deere, LHS.
99 hours.
9 DOs.
3 rest.
1 ULR.
3 midnight turns.
3 layovers.

[The Outlaw]

July 102 hours
August 100 hours
between the hours of 10pm and 6am
Soul destroying and unsustainable
family...negative effect on them all
badly managed company
getting worse year on year:


That facts in point format and pretty much sums it up. For those looking to join, take note.