Watch Out!!

[ORAC]

The Times: Radiation alert for glow-in-dark war watches

Families keeping Second World War wristwatches as mementos could be at “serious risk” of cancer because of the radiation they emit, according to research.

Collectors or families storing wristwatches from the 1920s to 1960s which used radon-based paints to make their dials glow in the dark could be absorbing dangerous doses of radiation.

Scientists from the University of Northampton and Kingston University have carried out the first work to determine just how harmful radioluminescent paint is when kept in the home. Radon exposure is the second leading cause of lung cancer deaths after smoking.

Scientists found a collection of 30 antique radium-dial watches gave rise to radon concentrations 134 times greater than the UK’s recommended “safe” level when kept in a space the size of a typical box room. Three of the watches in poor condition individually produced radon concentrations — when kept in the same poorly ventilated room — well over the threshold where Public Health England would recommend treatment.

The authors, Dr Robin Crockett, of the University of Northampton, and Professor Gavin Gillmore, of Kingston University, warn these levels are high enough to be dangerous even in much larger spaces, such as whole houses. Dr Crockett said: “These results show that the radon emitted from individual watches can potentially pose a serious cancer risk. This is of concern because in addition to military watches being particularly prized by collectors, many individual radium-dial watches are kept as mementoes by ex-servicemen and their descendants.

“They have the potential to pose a significant health hazard to themselves and their families. Smokers are particularly at risk.”

[Fareastdriver]

Oh Dear! All that time I spent in front of luminous cockpit instruments and wearing a luminous watch: I should have been dead years ago.

[Buster Hyman]

Cheers ORAC. Your concern for fellow Prooners gives me a nice, warm glow...

:p:ok:

[Danny42C]

FED (#2),

You and me both ! I'm sitting propped up in bed with a luminous clock 18 in each side of me. Pushing 97 (not out). I'll take my chances !

Danny.

[NutLoose]

Remember the Trim phone with the glow in the dark dial, these were radioactive but were shown to not cause a problem, well until concerns were raised and BT withdrew them, a dial on it's own was safe, but they removed them and put them all together, all 2000,000 of them, then they had a problem :E

Radiation (http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/ate/tao/trimphones/radiation1.html)

[Yamagata ken]

I used to wear my father's WWII issue watch to school. In one physics demonstration, the teacher used tweezers to remove a radioactive sample from its protective box and pass a geiger counter over it. It gave a reading. He asked for volunteers and I handed over father's watch for testing. The geiger counter went off-scale. Oops.

No sign of wrist cancer so far, and I'm not planning on dying of it. Cheers.

[Fareastdriver]

After spending some considerable time with a lapful of luminous instruments then certain possibilities could arise.

My father flew continuously from !941 until 1955 including some ten years on the Halifax where there was a full house of instruments in front of him. Whilst sitting in a cockpit one of the nearest soft body organs is the prostate. My father succumbed to that in 1997. I flew from 1960 until 1981 aircraft with either full or partial luminous instruments. I was diagnosed with prostate cancer in 2002 but luckily it was at an early stage and was effectively cured.

One wonders whether the two are connected.

Should the two be connected then it was all the Air Forces fault. Ignorance of the effects at the time is no excuse as has been demonstrated by other occasions, Christmas Island, Gulf War Syndrome etc.. It could be a case for those ex pilots, flight engineers and navigators having a case to claim compensation for the stress and suffering from this disease.

Any litigation lawyers reading this? ;):ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Like living in Cornwall - it's all a matter of ventilation....

if you wear the watch you're waving it around (unless you are comatose under the bar table) so the radon constantly disperses

[Turbine D]

There is a book by the title, Radon Girls. These were the painters of the watch faces. Most all died of cancer...

[Pontius Navigator]

As mention, instruments also have radium paint and many aircraft instruments find their way into private hands. The BBMF hangar used to have a cordoned area for old instruments.

Aircrew watches of the 60s and 70s used to have a T on the face denoting Tritium.

[Fareastdriver]

He asked for volunteers and I handed over father's watch for testing. The geiger counter went off-scale.

In the fifties my father, a friend of his and I used to charge around the Rhodesian bush with a Geiger counter looking for the new instant riches, uranium. The part of Matabeleland we were exploring had a fair smattering of old gold mine shafts and pits which we would explore with said instrument.
We came upon a vertical shaft with the rotting remains of a ladder attachment on the side. I declined the invitation to use the ladder so we lowered the Geiger counter on a rope and it went berserk when it reached the bottom.
I was now ordered to descend which I did by hanging on to various bits sticking out of the shaft supported by a rope and harness.

The bottom was dark so I pulled my torch out and flashed it around to come upon a skeleton lying on the floor with the counter by its watch hand.
Levitating myself to the top again we decided that the best thing we could do was to report the occurrence to the police.

They came along and recovered the remains but they never established whom the male person was. We did however go to his funeral to give him a bit of a send off.

[morton]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1600x1200/rad1_0c17c6ac577ab08c9cf4f2faf245f9841eeac9f3.jpg

I remember back in 1972 when I was working in the Armoury / SSA going round a 1066 Hastings with O/C Armoury measuring the radiation off of the various luminescent bits. Don’t think anything came of the readings but it took a further 25+ years before these started appearing in Museum Aircraft.

[VIProds]

Back in the 60's one of my duties was to be part of a six man "Special Safety Team"., that would get shipped out if there was a crash involving a Nuclear Weapon. We would regularly practice doing "sweeps" with a Geiger Counter & a radioactive isotope, which would be hidden in long grass. On one practice sessions, while waiting for the isotope to be hidden, I took off the Omega aircrew watch that I was issued with & was amazed to find that it was radiating more than ten times the practice isotope !!

I have worn the watch on & off for the past 50 years. I glow in the dark a bit, but no other problems.

[Shaft109]

https://youtu.be/xirtUF-iJXA

Even accounting for the decay this is a lot of radiation, also old camera lenses with Thorium?

[teeteringhead]

There is a book by the title, Radon Girls. These were the painters of the watch faces. Most all died of cancer... That's Radium Girls, or at least that's the UK title.

Not quite comparable to "normal" use. These poor girls were told to "sharpen" the point of their paintbrushes by licking them, and they painted scores if not hundreds od watches per day.

And the company not only refused to support them, but actively lied about them, including the implication that one of the girls had died of tertiary syphillis .......... when it was always bone cancer, starting - funny old thing - in the jaw.

Whatever the book is called, it's a cracking good read (author Kate Moore). But so little was known about radioactivity in them days .... the girls would also sometimes paint their teeth to give a "brilliant" smile on dates .........

[Compass Call]

My father spent 20 plus years flying aircraft with 'radio active' dials. Also wore an aircrew watch with a large luminous dial for 30 plus years.
He died of old age - not cancer or radiation poisoning!!!

[BirdmanBerry]

There's an area of Smiths Industries in Cheltenham that can't be built on due to their war time work with the dials and it's contaminated.

[chevvron]

I used to wear my father's WWII issue watch to school. In one physics demonstration, the teacher used tweezers to remove a radioactive sample from its protective box and pass a geiger counter over it. It gave a reading. He asked for volunteers and I handed over father's watch for testing. The geiger counter went off-scale. Oops.

No sign of wrist cancer so far, and I'm not planning on dying of it. Cheers.
I had a luminous watch from about 1960 to 1966. I was often getting a strange bruise on my wrist and thought it was just the watch rubbing against the skin, until we did a school vist to Bradwell Bay nuclear power station. Here we were scanned on leaving the reactor room and my watch gave a reading which set off an alarm!
I realised what was probably causing the 'bruise' then!

[nonsense]

I used to wear my father's WWII issue watch to school. In one physics demonstration, the teacher used tweezers to remove a radioactive sample from its protective box and pass a geiger counter over it. It gave a reading. He asked for volunteers and I handed over father's watch for testing. The geiger counter went off-scale. Oops.
Similar experience in 1975, a friend's watch produced an impressive response from the geiger counter. He stopped wearing it after that!
The hazard described here is not so much direct radiation at the wrist as radon released into the air indoors.

[Fareastdriver]

I realised what was probably causing the 'bruise' then!

Probably skin sensitivity to the metal on the watch back.. The full leather backing strap with its protective layer was all the rage then.

[Rosevidney1]

Fareastdriver wrote:
Oh Dear! All that time I spent in front of luminous cockpit instruments and wearing a luminous watch: I should have been dead years ago.

Ditto. I wonder if I'm dead but unaware of that trifling fact?

[PlasticCabDriver]

When I was much younger we went on a school visit to a nuclear power station. They had a Geiger counter in the operations room they they used to demonstrate how non-radiationy the environment was.

They did all the usual bits, plus pointing it at various kids watches and things, but when the chap pointed it at a piece of Cornish granite the thing went absolutely wild.

We used to go to Cornwall every year on holiday and go up at least one granite tor while we were there. Might explain a lot...

[Ogre]

Another example of lazy and sloppy reporting, trying to impart fear and panic for no reason other than to get a headline.

Radon itself has a relative short half life, and mostly emits alpha and beta particles which are only a hazard to people if you get too close. Radon particles attaching themselves to dust particles and then being inhaled are the biggest risk to humans.

Having a level "134 times greater than the UK’s recommended “safe” level" is meaningless as difference between the "safe" level and the "dangerous" level is many orders of magnitude, so being 134 times over the safe limit is probably less exposure than you would get walking down Union Street in Aberdeen.

I once visited Doureay visitor centre, a very interesting trip and as it was mid week there was three of us on the tour, and one of them was the guide. She would give us the standard spiel and then we would have a chat about various things fr five minutes before moving to the next location. Dounreay was at the time the storage facility for rock core samples from all over the UK, and on one occasion all the radiation alarms went off which would normally signify a major breach but in this case it was a granite core sample from Cornwall arriving at the stores.

[kration]

I was involved with the redevelopment of an ex-RAF base some years ago. As part of the site contamination study they found a very high level of radioactivity on a tennis court on the base. They couldn't figure out why, until they realised that luminous paint had been used on the court markings so they could be used at night.

[ORAC]

Presumably those using court also had luminous balls as a consequence?

[Danny42C]

Presumably there would have to be a luminous net ...

[EAP86]

I can remember seeing a special ventilation procedure to be adopted in the event of a beta light in a Jaguar cockpit being broken by the pilot's foot. Another source of radioactivity on aircraft are jet engine casings of a certain vintage. The cases were toughened by the use of Thorium during manufacture. Accident investigators were advised to minimise contact with smashed casings.

EAP

[Whenurhappy]

Interesting, but to the uniformed, the figures quoted would seem scary. Coincidentally, I've just left a wartime pocket watch in for repair will an old-tume jeweller and watchmaker. He has found a new glass (actually an early plastic) and replaced a missing second hand.

[VIProds]

Just checked my collection of watches & they range from 0.27 /Usv/hr for a Russian DeepSea Divers Watch to 0.14 /Usv/hr for a black Seiko (SR71) watch.
The Radiation levels are:
0.01 - 0.1 Normal Background
0.1 - 1.0 Medium Level
Greater than 5 High Level
Greater than 50 Very High Level - LEAVE AREA!!

[2Planks]

The asbestos in WW2 gas masks is probably a bigger threat.....

[George K Lee]

My Mum worked for the Kelvin company (later, Smiths) in the early war years, and would tell the story about the women "pointing" the brushes with their tongues.

And before anyone starts in with the "that explains a lot" jokes, she was a supervisor, having been to high school.

[RedhillPhil]

As mention, instruments also have radium paint and many aircraft instruments find their way into private hands. The BBMF hangar used to have a cordoned area for old instruments.

Aircrew watches of the 60s and 70s used to have a T on the face denoting Tritium.

I have a 1969 Omega. I oft wondered what the little T was for on either side of the maker's name at the bottom of the dial.

[ORAC]

Interesting, but to the uniformed, the figures quoted would seem scary. Would that be all uniformed personnel or just the military? :p

[BEagle]

For a particular role of the VC10K3, it was necessary to do a background radiation check, which included the flight deck. All clicking away normally, until the boffin moved the detector to the nav's instrument panel, when it squealed like a stuck pig.... The detector, that is.

It seems that the DF indicator, which had previously done time in the Victor (and probably in a Neptune or something before then), had luminous markings which were still quite active...

[Pontius Navigator]

Always puzzled me in the V-Force in early 60s. Ground crew, armourers and ATC all wore those radiation film tags but aircrew didn't. Mmmm.

[VIProds]

I have a 1969 Omega. I oft wondered what the little T was for on either side of the maker's name at the bottom of the dial.

RedhillPhil My Omega read 0.2 /Usv/hr so you will have much more coming out of the ground at Penzance.

[Tankertrashnav]

I had a radon test done on my old granite house in Cornwall about 30 years ago. Apparently the levels are around twice the permitted level and the recommendation was to install a couple of sumps with associated extraction pumps etc. You can imagine what that would cost in a house with stone floors and 3' thick walls so I decided a better plan was to leave the windows open (when it was warm enough), So far, so good.

[Rocket2]

The first company I worked for manufactured the wonderful Mk III liquid prismatic compass in deepest (glow in the dark) Kent, the dial & needle of which were coated in radium. I believe the company still exists.