France tells Belgium 'do the right thing….' (buy Rafale!)

[Jackonicko]

Quel surpris!

French Armed Forces Minister Tells VRT (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/193850/french-minister-takes-a-swipe-at-rivals-in-belgian-fighter-bid.html)

"France’s Armed Forces Minister on Friday called on Belgium to do the right thing when choosing its next fighter, and to pick the competitor that would best support the emerging European defense compact as well as Belgium’s own defense capabilities.

"During a June 8 interview with VRT Flemish radio-television, Florence Parly also took a swipe at the two aircraft that are competing for an order…..

"If Belgium were to opt for the F-35 to replace its current F-16s, Parly told VRT NWS "it would be a terrible choice…..The American offer is an expensive one, and comes at a very particular time, when the United States has launched a trade war against Europe,” she said.

"For Belgium, “a founding nation of the European Union, it would be a terrible choice,” because it wouldn’t support the Europe defense compact, she said.

"Parly dismissed the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a four-nation consortium but represented by British company BAE Systems in the Belgian competition, in a few words.

"The British plane has not yet demonstrated its performance, and we think that performance is rather mediocre," the French minister said."

Good old Flo! She obviously didn't notice Libya in 2011, or Shader, or any of the Red Flags….. Seven or eight years ago she's have had a point about 'not demonstrated', perhaps, but now…..?

I wonder whether Trump's recent 'diplomacy' will have helped Typhoon's chances in Belgium and Canada?

[jindabyne]

Plus ca change -----

(PS: Jacko, 4May PM)

[Pure Pursuit]

Quel surpris!

French Armed Forces Minister Tells VRT (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/193850/french-minister-takes-a-swipe-at-rivals-in-belgian-fighter-bid.html)

"France’s Armed Forces Minister on Friday called on Belgium to do the right thing when choosing its next fighter, and to pick the competitor that would best support the emerging European defense compact as well as Belgium’s own defense capabilities.

"During a June 8 interview with VRT Flemish radio-television, Florence Parly also took a swipe at the two aircraft that are competing for an order…..

"If Belgium were to opt for the F-35 to replace its current F-16s, Parly told VRT NWS "it would be a terrible choice…..The American offer is an expensive one, and comes at a very particular time, when the United States has launched a trade war against Europe,” she said.

"For Belgium, “a founding nation of the European Union, it would be a terrible choice,” because it wouldn’t support the Europe defense compact, she said.

"Parly dismissed the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a four-nation consortium but represented by British company BAE Systems in the Belgian competition, in a few words.

"The British plane has not yet demonstrated its performance, and we think that performance is rather mediocre," the French minister said."

Good old Flo! She obviously didn't notice Libya in 2011, or Shader, or any of the Red Flags….. Seven or eight years ago she's have had a point about 'not demonstrated', perhaps, but now…..?

I wonder whether Trump's recent 'diplomacy' will have helped Typhoon's chances in Belgium and Canada?

Rafale has AESA, sensor fusion, it’s cheaper and has similar performance to Typhoon....

[melmothtw]

Rafale has AESA, sensor fusion, it’s cheaper and has similar performance to Typhoon....

Typhoon will have AESA by the time Belgium comes to operate it, it has 'sensor fusion' (whatever that actually means) to at least the same degree as the Rafale, cost benefits of the Rafale over the Typhoon are marginal (procurement and operating), and Rafale can carry less over a shorter distance at a lower altitude and slower speed (important for Meteor). Other than that, yes go for Rafale.

[Heathrow Harry]

Typhoon will have AESA by the time Belgium comes to operate it, it has 'sensor fusion' (whatever that actually means) to at least the same degree as the Rafale, cost benefits of the Rafale over the Typhoon are marginal (procurement and operating), and Rafale can carry less over a shorter distance at a lower altitude and slower speed (important for Meteor). Other than that, yes go for Rafale.

It's Belgium - range doesn't matter as they never go anywhere..............

[melmothtw]

It's Belgium - range doesn't matter as they never go anywhere..............

Must have been some other Belgium that flew its F-16s in Afghanistan. Belgium goes as far as anyone, and further than most.

[Jackonicko]

Interestingly, Dassault and the French government declined to answer the Belgian RFP, did not submit a proper bid, and now expect to take the prize on the basis, presumably, of Francophone solidarity. :rolleyes:

There was a time when the Rafale did look like a better bet than a narrow and inflexible Typhoon, but with all the weapons integrations and capability enhancements achieved since then, and looking at the configuration being offered to Belgium, Typhoon looks to me to be a much better option for Belgium than does Rafale.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Is Belgium looking 20 or 30 years ahead for this purchase to be relevant for its own interests and NATO ?
Rafale presently is the better purchase as it is striving ahead, Typhoon is in phases and the German EFA (Typhoons) are multiple phases behind.

We know already that Typhoon is now a bomb truck once F35 (OCA) comes into service in numbers. Where is France and Rafale in comparison with F35 ?

[George K Lee]

Anyone who understands Belgian politics, please raise their moules-and-frites stained hand.

[Heathrow Harry]

Interestingly, Dassault and the French government declined to answer the Belgian RFP, did not submit a proper bid, and now expect to take the prize on the basis, presumably, of Francophone solidarity. :rolleyes:

There was a time when the Rafale did look like a better bet than a narrow and inflexible Typhoon, but with all the weapons integrations and capability enhancements achieved since then, and looking at the configuration being offered to Belgium, Typhoon looks to me to be a much better option for Belgium than does Rafale.

Why bother with all that paper work and angst when , as George points out, Belgian politics will deliver the result not some "evaluation"

TBH people should do the same thing with the Indian AF requests for bids

[chopper2004]

It's Belgium - range doesn't matter as they never go anywhere..............

Thats a naive statement HH ....like all of NATO air arms they deploy Out Of Area

Belgian F-16s end operations over Afghanistan (http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4895.html)

They do other deployements such as provide CAP during Op Ellamy in 2011.

cheers

[Buster15]

Is Belgium looking 20 or 30 years ahead for this purchase to be relevant for its own interests and NATO ?
Rafale presently is the better purchase as it is striving ahead, Typhoon is in phases and the German EFA (Typhoons) are multiple phases behind.

We know already that Typhoon is now a bomb truck once F35 (OCA) comes into service in numbers. Where is France and Rafale in comparison with F35 ?

Typhoon a bomb truck ??
Hardly. It is now becoming a true multi role weapons platform with the ability to deliver its Swing Role capability. It is also extremely reliable and supports a much larger European Base.

[Finningley Boy]

Back in 2014 I got chatting with a Belgian AF engineer in a Bar in Bree, he was stationed at Kleine Brogel, he said that whatever replaced the F-16 would need to be able to carry the 'Bomb'. I did hear that the Germans and Dutch still retain their M61s. Perhaps someone can confirm that the BAF have a handful of the old instant sunshine bucket loads an' all? Further, could the Tiffy carry M61s?

FB

[George K Lee]

The M61 is a gun. The Belgians are still in on the NATO weapon program with dual-keyed B61s, which are being upgraded into the dial-a-yield, JDAM-tailkit-equipped B61-12. Integrating the weapon on to Typhoon or Rafale is technically possible because both are MIL-STD-1760 compliant. (The precedent is that German and Italian Tornados carry B61s.) The question is whether the US will be cooperative, or whether it will use the nuclear arrangement as a lever to sell F-35 in Belgium and Germany.

There are about 150 B61s in Europe, including 50 at Incirlik AB that are US-only, although aircraft would have to be deployed there to deliver them. The weapons in Italy, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are held under an arrangement where the US can keep the weapons on European soil, as long as the hosts have a role in their delivery.

I don't think the strategic rationale for this element of the nuclear force has been deeply studied in recent years.

[esa-aardvark]

Dial-a-yield, I resemble that years ago (1960?)

[chopper2004]

Had the same conversation @ ILA 2018 with a Belgian contact about the F-35 and the nuclear option as the Typhoon which is also being marketed to them, cannot carry bucket of sunshine.

Back to the Rafale debate - the Force de Frappe Air missions - they’re equipped with ASMP. For sure the Belgians contribution to the bucket of sunshine if they went for the French option will not include ASMp! And the Raale is not certified to carry the 61.

below is video of practice scramble for the nuke mission

cheers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Acxj1DNBqe0

[recceguy]

Back in 2014 I got chatting with a Belgian AF engineer in a Bar in Bree, he was stationed at Kleine Brogel, he said that whatever replaced the F-16 would need to be able to carry the 'Bomb'. I did hear that the Germans and Dutch still retain their M61..s. Frankly, I cannot understand how some european countries feel so proud about being submitted to US, with those bombs locked in a secure area at their own base, with US MP to guard them. But if it pleases them, why not ? And for sure " a Belgian engineer at the bar" is the most reliable source in international politics….

Typhoon will have AESA by the time …. Yes, in time, everything said ! And it will be landing on carriers, also ….
And if things keep going like that, at that moment Scotland will have been separated from England, so it will be less trouble with that country divided in two. And maybe Belgium also, the way it goes (they don't talk to each other in that artificial country !) And western Europe will look like Africa also.

[Finningley Boy]

The M61 is a gun. The Belgians are still in on the NATO weapon program with dual-keyed B61s, which are being upgraded into the dial-a-yield, JDAM-tailkit-equipped B61-12. Integrating the weapon on to Typhoon or Rafale is technically possible because both are MIL-STD-1760 compliant. (The precedent is that German and Italian Tornados carry B61s.) The question is whether the US will be cooperative, or whether it will use the nuclear arrangement as a lever to sell F-35 in Belgium and Germany.

There are about 150 B61s in Europe, including 50 at Incirlik AB that are US-only, although aircraft would have to be deployed there to deliver them. The weapons in Italy, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are held under an arrangement where the US can keep the weapons on European soil, as long as the hosts have a role in their delivery.

I don't think the strategic rationale for this element of the nuclear force has been deeply studied in recent years.

My apologies George my dear plum, B61s of course!

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/960x720/11_sqn_alpha_aaaf1e6ed7058df59604e45ee4c94c4ad9b0c4eb.jpg

Alpha & Rafale
Sorry to intrude -

Saw this on the Belgian Air Force F-16 Solo Display Facebook page, an 11 Squadron Alpha Jet in new markings for the display season.

Interesting choice of a silhouette to decorate an Alpha jet with - https://www.facebook.com/BelgianAirForceF16SoloDisplay/photos/a.1593137980960085.1073741840.1569524559988094/2073315959608949/?type=3&theater

Appears to be an issue with the link, so here's the photo:-

[halloweene]

Typhoon will have AESA by the time Belgium comes to operate it, it has 'sensor fusion' (whatever that actually means) to at least the same degree as the Rafale, cost benefits of the Rafale over the Typhoon are marginal (procurement and operating), and Rafale can carry less over a shorter distance at a lower altitude and slower speed (important for Meteor). Other than that, yes go for Rafale.

WILL is not HAS and no typhoon correlation of tracks is definitely way behind Rafale sensor fusion. Rafale can carry way more and to a much longer distance.

[halloweene]

Back in 2014 I got chatting with a Belgian AF engineer in a Bar in Bree, he was stationed at Kleine Brogel, he said that whatever replaced the F-16 would need to be able to carry the 'Bomb'. I did hear that the Germans and Dutch still retain their M61s. Perhaps someone can confirm that the BAF have a handful of the old instant sunshine bucket loads an' all? Further, could the Tiffy carry M61s?

FB
In fact these are double key B61 retained in Klein Brogel. Interestingly, German governpment is asking an official position from USA so as to integrate it or not on EFT

[halloweene]

The "gadgets" are stationed in Mont de Marsan with Rafale