Air traffic control Strikes France and Barcelona

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Marseille ATC is calling for more strikes this Saturday and Sunday. ATC controllers in Barcelona and Spain are short staffed, working days and will be going on strike.
Personally and behalf of my passengers I am tired of the air traffic controls strikes. Delay slots and cancelled flights, in the end many passengers blame the airlines.

Its time for both parties to resolve their differences and sit down and find a solution, enough already. Have you been affected?


“It’s really a significant issue. We thought it would get better in 2018 but it’s getting worse,” Walsh said. France has been a particular problem area for airlines, where public sector workers have staged a series of protests over the government’s economic reforms. IAG’S airlines, which also include Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vueling, are having to spend more on fuel to travel via alternative routes to bypass French airspace, Walsh said. “We end up paying compensation to customers. It’s completely outside our control,” he added, saying millions of passengers were affected and it cost airlines tens of millions of euros.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airlines-iata-iag-atc/air-traffic-strikes-bigger-threat-than-fuel-prices-in-2018-iag-says-idUSKCN1J10TQ.

[BluSdUp]

Ah Perfect, I can do without that lot.

[zonoma]

Marseilles are possibly striking EVERY weekend for the foreseeable future. This isn't something new and isn't something that is going to be going away, read up on the French changes to working rights & pensions and you can see exactly why this is happening.

[Skipname]

Even though it causes delays and cancelled flights I wholeheartedly support their strike action, as a matter of fact I support every group of workers striking efforts, no matter the inconvenience caused to me.

I hope some day not too far away the pilots will grow a backbone and go on strike as well to improve the eroding T&Cs in our industry, especially the bunch at a certain Irish carrier.

[16024]

At the risk of sounding like a bit of an old pinko lefty, Walsh is the last person to wheel out on workers' rights.
It may be a short term inconvenience, but industrial action that nobody noticed would be a waste of everyone's afternoon.

[beachbumflyer]

Skip, I totally agree with you.

[paully]

Even though it causes delays and cancelled flights I wholeheartedly support their strike action, as a matter of fact I support every group of workers striking efforts, no matter the inconvenience caused to me.

I hope some day not too far away the pilots will grow a backbone and go on strike as well to improve the eroding T&Cs in our industry, especially the bunch at a certain Irish carrier.

Good for you..As a passenger delayed, sometimes considerably, faffed and messed about. Witnessed first hand Flight and cabin crew tearing their hair out, trying to get their jobs done. I for one are totally peeed orf with their selfish actions. Somebody needs to kick ass which in the case of France, Macron is trying to do. The Republic can no longer afford featherbedding. The others probably just jumping on a bandwagon. You don`t like it?...tough I don`t care..but..many pax like me also have had enough and can vote with their feet. Next year we are going to Spain but putting our money with Brittany Ferries. There`s more to life than being messed about by so called `Aviation Professionals`.....

[Sunamer]

Even though it causes delays and cancelled flights I wholeheartedly support their strike action, as a matter of fact I support every group of workers striking efforts, no matter the inconvenience caused to me.

I hope some day not too far away the pilots will grow a backbone and go on strike as well to improve the eroding T&Cs in our industry, especially the bunch at a certain Irish carrier.

Why would you give companies more arguments for automated airplanes, I have no idea. What is the point of strikes, if you can change an employer and weed out the most corrupt, less effective ones that way?
By doing that, you actually hit where it hurts, while by striking you hit those who have no relation to the company.

pilots could, as you said, grow a backbone, but realise - it is a free market, and the more of an unpredictable expense you become to the company, the more they will think about removing that random variable from their business equation.

[Pringle_]

https://www.joc.com/content/qa-workers-strike-frances-major-ports

[Tigger4Me]

We are holidaying for just a few days in France and part of our itinerary today was a trip on the Little Yellow Train up into the Pyrenees. That was a no go as the railway workers were on strike. Sitting in a bar and planning or next move, we received a text from a certain Irish airline to say that our return flight from Toulouse is cancelled next Sunday due to the ATC strike! Isn't it strange that I was immediately able to book alternative flights on a choice of two other airlines! My EU261 compensation claim will be with you next week MOL Yes I know EU261 doesn't cover strike action, but the way that I look at it, if others can operate, MOL can only be cancelling to suit his own operations. I stand to be corrected and welcome your comments.

The French workers must be doing untold damage to the country with these :mad: strikes.

[Hotel Tango]

The French workers must be doing untold damage to the country with these :mad: strikes.

Hmm, I would presume that's the plan! I think It's just too easy to get on one's high horse and criticise strikers when one is affected but not personally employed in the job, know little of what it entails, and what exactly the grievances are.

[DC10RealMan]

I agree with what Skipname says.

Good Luck to them.

[172_driver]

Lot's of talking. Does anyone actually know the reason behind what's going on?

Until I know, I reserve my judgement.

[wiggy]

Lot's of talking. Does anyone actually know the reason behind what's going on?


Yes, to a degree...how long have you got?

The situation as seen by someone resident in France: Government need to reduce public spending/balance the books, a stated aim (by President Macron) to move French Labour laws and businesses into the 21st century, syndicats (unions) trying to hold the line (I think unless you are very left of centre politically it’s hard to be too sympathetic with some of the rail workers T&Cs, especially those regarding retirement), a system of industrial relations that generally in most industries seems to hinge on confrontation, then negotiation, rather than the other way round., on an emotional level the fact is the 50th anniversary of 1968 has been mentioned....

..That’s very very very much a simplistic précis, so is the one in this link, but it’s a start:





https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/france-rail-air-strikes-latest-british-passengers-industrial-action-emmanuel-macron-a8302951.html

TBF if you live there and know the system it is possible to work around the disruption (both train and air) if you have a handle on the dates, but I know it’s harder for visitors. FWIW according to some sources the strikes are losing support and there are certainly claimed to now be more trains running than mentioned in the Independent piece, probably mainly due to the financial impact on those striking. In any event it will probably calm down in a month or less when the holiday season starts.

As for the side issue mentioned by Tigger of a certain airline proactively dropping French flights at the hint of IA whereas others such as Easyjet and BA trying to continue operating......nothing new there.

[sitigeltfel]

Lot's of talking. Does anyone actually know the reason behind what's going on?

Until I know, I reserve my judgement.


I was chatting to a French Controller on Monday evening and he said one of the main gripes was the cutting back of maintenance. There used to be 24hr cover, but it is being pared back to a 7am-7pm operation. If something non essential breaks out of hours, they are expected to cope with reduced facilities until the morning.

[zed3]

sitigeltfel... aah yes, that started around eight or nine years ago at our unit. Friday evening, something tech, call maintenance "call back Monday morning" was the reply and there were we working 24 hours a day. That's not support, as was deemed by our so called support staff... 'management'.
Harrumph, happy days but glad I'm retired.

[172_driver]

wiggy and all, thanks for that! I remember when there was a general strike in Belgium. There were burning cars are on the entrance road to the airport. None could get in or out, participant or not. They sure knew how to get their dissatisfaction across.

[sitigeltfel]

Yesterday evening, on the A8 near Aix-en-Provence, the messages on the overhead gantries were urging motorists to car share during the transport strikes. This must be at the behest of the authorities as I can't see the autoroute companies campaigning to reduce the number of vehicles passing through their toll booths! ;)

[BluSdUp]

Anyone know what the Spanish are on about?
No more air-conditioned car park?

[16024]

Good for you..As a passenger delayed, sometimes considerably, faffed and messed about. Witnessed first hand Flight and cabin crew tearing their hair out, trying to get their jobs done. I for one are totally peeed orf with their selfish actions. Somebody needs to kick ass which in the case of France, Macron is trying to do. The Republic can no longer afford featherbedding. The others probably just jumping on a bandwagon. You don`t like it?...tough I don`t care..but..many pax like me also have had enough and can vote with their feet. Next year we are going to Spain but putting our money with Brittany Ferries. There`s more to life than being messed about by so called `Aviation Professionals`.....
And good for you.
You'd probably have 8 year olds working downt' mill as long as you can still have your holiday.

[flyingmed]

It's a pity to see so many comments by people that can't seem to understand whats at stake. These workers are not striking just to have a day off. I would suggest those who think that way look below the first layer of propaganda spread by media and some airlines and see what the underlying reasons are.

I have been consistently affected by French & Spanish ATC strikes over the years but I still take my hat off to them.

[Skipname]

Why would you give companies more arguments for automated airplanes, I have no idea. What is the point of strikes, if you can change an employer and weed out the most corrupt, less effective ones that way?
By doing that, you actually hit where it hurts, while by striking you hit those who have no relation to the company.

pilots could, as you said, grow a backbone, but realise - it is a free market, and the more of an unpredictable expense you become to the company, the more they will think about removing that random variable from their business equation.

In other words, shut up and bend over huh? Let them introduce the automated planes. Do you think they haven’t already introduced the automated planes because the crew are behaving or because the technology is not there yet?

I find it funny how the big airlines are constantly complaining about the rising crew costs yet every year their profits are increasing.

[Timmy Tomkins]

Well the skies are probably safer when the Spanish ATC aren't at work.. the French strikes however are very inconvenient!
Of course ai jest and not all Spanish ATC are awful but the average standard is just appalling.
What about Italy?

[Chesty Morgan]

At least they’ve got style!

[601]

I find it funny how the big airlines are constantly complaining about the rising crew costs yet every year their profits are increasing.

That is because bean counters now run everything. They have no experience at the coal face.

[flyingmed]

Why would you give companies more arguments for automated airplanes, I have no idea. What is the point of strikes, if you can change an employer and weed out the most corrupt, less effective ones that way?
By doing that, you actually hit where it hurts, while by striking you hit those who have no relation to the company.

pilots could, as you said, grow a backbone, but realise - it is a free market, and the more of an unpredictable expense you become to the company, the more they will think about removing that random variable from their business equation.

Well drones and automated systems cost nothing apart from maintenance and updating software, not to mention the adequate technology doesn't currently exist in the civilian world. Should we just keep allowing the reduction of pay and working conditions in aviation until we are all charity workers?

[zonoma]

Safety cuts (not just cutting back but no support for long periods of time as mentioned above), huge reductions in pensions & a retirement age that is being moved from 55 to 70. Wage cuts, not just marking time, but being told next month you will get a pay packet half of what it was last month, and many more living standards that are just being changed that will hugely affect a person's way of living overnight. I'm not one to advocate strike action normally, but what the French, Spanish and Italians are being subjected to without vote is awful. Yes things needed a change, but not as drastic as they are happening.

Bring on the automated aircraft, they are still going nowhere without ATC.

[Hotel Tango]

Bring on the automated aircraft, they are still going nowhere without ATC.

Oh, but haven't you heard, they are trying hard to fully automate ATC too. It can be done but fortunately, so far, without major financial penalties to the operators whose aircraft would be subjected to rigid and totally uneconomic procedures. What presently makes the system work is the flexibility of humans both in the cockpit and at ATC units.

[TBSC]

I have been consistently affected by French & Spanish ATC strikes over the years but I still take my hat off to them.

Yep, hats off to them for carefully screwing another nation's (=Spain) traffic and airlines with the constant LFMM strikes instead of their own airports and operators. Bravo!

[Hotel Tango]

Yep, hats off to them for carefully screwing another nation's (=Spain) traffic and airlines with the constant LFMM strikes instead of their own airports and operators. Bravo!

I had to smile at that. I think you fail to understand something elementary in the concept of strike action.

[PapaLima]

Personally and behalf of my passengers I am tired of the air traffic controls strikes. Delay slots and cancelled flights, in the end many passengers blame the airlines.

Its time for both parties to resolve their differences and sit down and find a solution, enough already. Have you been affected?

Walsh should simply quit complaining if ATM/ATC fees go up a bit to fund increased hiring.

The Barcelona ACC guys have gone from working a 5-days-on, 3-days-off schedule to being forced into a 6-on, 2-off schedule. This is because of short staffing. The staffing is short because the users whine about user fees all the time... and the users are the airlines.

So, really, when the passengers blame the airlines, they're correct. If the airlines paid a bit higher ATM/ATC fees, the ATM providers could hire more people, and the controllers would be happy, and they wouldn't go on strike.

And "they should sit down and work out their differences" is silly. They TRIED sitting down and working it out. That didn't work. Going on strike is what you do next when sitting down and talking it out doesn't work.

[ATC Watcher]

For Marseilles the strike is a result of the mandatory cost reductions imposed by the Eur Commission ( the so called RP2 and PR3 mandatory cost reductions ) in ATM costs and route charges due pressures of the airlines groups..
Consequences were reduction in staff and delaying modernization programs, only 2 of the 5 Centers in France have been modernized so far ( ERATO system) , staff numbers have decreased ( -6%) while traffic is up 8% last 2 years.
As a side note, the strike in Marseilles is from a small union ( but important in Aix-Marseilles center) but causing large disruptions.
In Spain it is very similar . Cost reductions leading to reduction/shortage staff, plus the bulling of the controllers by their employers. Lot of differences en up in court at the moment and the relations management--controllers is terrible there. .

As to the low cost airlines cancelling flights, I understand from insiders that this is a good way to hide their won staff shortages and blame others. Strikes ( or Weather / Cbs in summer) are the usual culprits.
A good example :we received a text from a certain Irish airline to say that our return flight from Toulouse is cancelled next Sunday due to the ATC strike
Toulouse is in Bordeaux FIR , aflight to/from UK will be not affected by a strike in Marseilles.

Last point , the ATC strikes , unlike the Train SNCF one , have little to do with Macron reforms , the "RP" cost reductions were long before him. , .

[Tigger4Me]

For Marseilles the strike is a result of the mandatory cost reductions imposed by the Eur Commission ( the so called RP2 and PR3 mandatory cost reductions ) in ATM costs and route charges due pressures of the airlines groups..
Consequences were reduction in staff and delaying modernization programs, only 2 of the 5 Centers in France have been modernized so far ( ERATO system) , staff numbers have decreased ( -6%) while traffic is up 8% last 2 years.
As a side note, the strike in Marseilles is from a small union ( but important in Aix-Marseilles center) but causing large disruptions.
In Spain it is very similar . Cost reductions leading to reduction/shortage staff, plus the bulling of the controllers by their employers. Lot of differences en up in court at the moment and the relations management--controllers is terrible there. .

As to the low cost airlines cancelling flights, I understand from insiders that this is a good way to hide their won staff shortages and blame others. Strikes ( or Weather / Cbs in summer) are the usual culprits.
A good example :

Quote:
we received a text from a certain Irish airline to say that our return flight from Toulouse is cancelled next Sunday due to the ATC strike

Toulouse is in Bordeaux FIR , aflight to/from UK will be not affected by a strike in Marseilles.

Last point , the ATC strikes , unlike the Train SNCF one , have little to do with Macron reforms , the "RP" cost reductions were long before him. , .


Regarding the mention of the Toulouse cancellation, I submitted a claim for compensation which was agreed and the following explanation was offered:

"We sincerely regret the cancellation of your flight xxxx on the 10/06/2018 which was due to an unexpected airport facility issue."

I think that confirms what we both suspect, which is that they are using the strikes to sort out their own mess.

[Joe le Taxi]

I think they would evoke more public sympathy if it wasn't always oh so conveniently on a weekend ... "So my holiday gets ruined, so they can spend the weekend round the braai with their friends - bully for them"

[sinnic]

Can anyone point me to where the planned strike dates and times are actually made known?

[Hussar 54]

Can anyone point me to where the planned strike dates and times are actually made known?


Same as, sort of....

The daughter and son-in-law due to fly back to the UK tomorrow, from Nice to Bristol..

As we're a two hour drive to Nice, we'd really like to know whether their flight is one of the ' hundreds of flights cancelled ' according to UK newspapers before we set off.

Can't seem to find anything on the Easy website, other than a generic warning, so anyone who can provide a link would be much appreciated.

[ATC Watcher]

we'd really like to know whether their flight is one of the ' hundreds of flights cancelled ' according to UK newspapers before we set off.

The strike in Marseilles was announced weeks ago ; 23-24 June .
ATC does not cancel flights, just causing delays ,as not all the sectors are opened. there is also a minimum service mandatory for ATC in France during periods of industrial action. It is the airlines that cancel flights , so in your case call the airline . they know.
Finally Newspapers ( especially UK ones except perhaps The Guardian ) are rarely a good source to find something in Aviation ..

[ImageGear]

As we're a two hour drive to Nice, we'd really like to know whether their flight is one of the ' hundreds of flights cancelled ' according to UK newspapers before we set off.

I am in Antibes and was expecting someone arriving on the Easy flight to Nice, from Bristol. Easy were useless in posting the true state of affairs and must have only decided not to cancel at the last minute. I have learned over many years to put more trust in FR24 or Flightaware because if I see the aircraft taxying out, accelerating down the runway, or approaching TOD, my estimate for arrival in the terminal with be well ahead of anything they put on the boards or show on their website.

Yesterday, at one stage the website only showed "Go to departures, almost 2 hours after the flight was supposed to have gone. At least, when the ADS-B squawk appears, I know something is happening. I can only imagine what the Nice passengers would think if they could know what the situation was in Bristol. Our passenger sat in the cabin for at least 30 mins before anything started moving, and you won't see that on the board.

French ATC delays are one thing, a lack of information from Easy just compounds the issue.

IG

[Tiennetti]

Same as, sort of....

The daughter and son-in-law due to fly back to the UK tomorrow, from Nice to Bristol..

As we're a two hour drive to Nice, we'd really like to know whether their flight is one of the ' hundreds of flights cancelled ' according to UK newspapers before we set off.

Can't seem to find anything on the Easy website, other than a generic warning, so anyone who can provide a link would be much appreciated.

https://www.easyjet.com/en/flight-tracker

[ImageGear]

Tiennetti

Yesterday, that link showed our passenger's flight somewhere near Orleans South West of Paris, complete with a course line, when it had not even left the gate in Bristol. When the flight did take off, it did not take the planned track (which had been shown on the link page), but went much further East direct to Dover, before it was routed South at Dover more directly towards Lyon.

Not to be trusted

IG

[SINGAPURCANAC]

mandatory cost reductions
Does it include menagement positions and salaries with benefits or we just talking about other cost reduction? As an example give us the name of ATC manager who get reduction of salary because of lack planning, inability to organize job, or lack of strategic thinking in order to prevent traffic disruption ( especially in state owned ANSPs in Europe) ;) :E

imposed by the Eur Commission ( the so called RP2 and PR3 mandatory cost reductions ) in ATM costs
What is the connection( i.e hierarchy responsibility) between EU and Eurocontrol -CRCO ??

Cost reductions leading to reduction/shortage staff,

after more than 20 years of carrier in European ATC I would like to ask some question ( hope that I will learn something at the end of discussion),
How the hell we don't have enough ATCOs, sectors and associated equipment if CRCO pays all our costs???
i.e. If we need 20 atcos, than we take money from CRCO to hire them, train them and employ them. Whole system is based on real costs. There is no profit neither loss in the system of ANSPs . The same applicable to equipment and other costs. Yes, I know that we should aim to reduce cost per aircraft, that is legal and logic, but we can't reduce costs below money that is the necessary to run safe business. If we need 20 atcos than we need it. We can't do business without people. It is not possible to reduce these costs ,and I think if we find real financial documents that nobody in Europe reduce costs for hiring new people. Salaries are on rise, management benefits business trips and other costs are also on rise, but we are unable to deliver primary task - to handle traffic.
Thanks for clarification,

[Chris2303]

Time to buy some very fast ferries methinks.

[pax britanica]

Thats life when you have MOL and WW on one side, sack everyone who doesnt work 24 hours in a day
and the french Unions..

France has to change but it isnt going to accept the massacre of wages and conditions that the Uk for one put people through just so that very rich people can get even richer and oddly that poo people get even poorer.
Strikes that dont affect any one are pointless so they will always affect an Innocent third party. In Uk of course we are brainwashed into all strikes are wrong , its different in France where its all strikes are right (at least until proven otherwise) .

But most people on Pprune would be on the picket lines if they had the T&Cs of french unionised workers and these strikes are more about negotiating new deals rather than blindly hanging on to something most French peolel know has to change

[wiggy]

Tigger

Regarding the mention of the Toulouse cancellation, I submitted a claim for compensation which was agreed and the following explanation was offered:

"We sincerely regret the cancellation of your flight xxxx on the 10/06/2018 which was due to an unexpected airport facility issue."

That's very interesting...I smell something....Assuming I've got this right and we are most definitely talking about a flight into TLS on 10 June then just so you know I flew into TLS that very evening on a flight that operated, albeit slightly late ( just under an hour). I also just happen to know all that airline's earlier UK-TLS flights had operated into Blagnac successfully that day, and AFAIK there were no problems at the airport, though the flights did suffer delays due "enroute" slots. I wonder what this "unexpected airport facility issue" was 'cos it was all working at Blagnac when I arrived....anyhow glad you got compensation

Since I have a special interest in TLS flights I've been watching what has going on with the strikes and as ATC watcher has said:

1. TLS are "covered" by Bordeaux and so whilst there have been delays they have not been as effected as much as some airports to the east, and

2.The cancelling is being done by the airlines - one in particular. As usual some operators are obviously prepared to try and operate on Strike days , some are deciding to not even try.

[Tigger4Me]

Wiggy

My flight was actually TLS/LIS, not UK.

On the 10th there were 137 flights scheduled to operate from TLS, of which only 18 (13.14%) were cancelled.

FR were scheduled to operate 9 flights but had 5 cancelled (55.56%).

There were four flights scheduled to LIS that day and only the FR was cancelled.

Says it all really.