AA 1897 SAT-PHX Divert to ELP for Hail Damage

[Airbubba]

American 1897, an A319 N806AW, San Antonio to Phoenix is diverting to El Paso due to hail damage that has shattered the windshield. They report having little forward visibility due to the damage.

They are currently holding north of the field doing checklists. So far, no injuries reported from the weather encounter.

[MarkerInbound]

Looks like a fairly solid line of storms from Mexico north across far west Texas and eastern Nex Mexico to Colorado.

[Airbubba]

ILS 22, exit to the left at H. Checked by ARFF, they say the 'nose cone' is very damaged as well. Will be towed to gate A4 as soon as AA can find the towbar. Still no known injuries. :ok:

Pax selfies on Twitter and the 11 pm news. :)

[Airbubba]

Customary after landing tweet with a picture of the AA1897 pilots and requests from media like the Daily Mail asking for usage rights in the comments:

AA 1897 Tweet

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1296-de0soryvmaaqdyv.jpg

Statement from AA corporate:

“American Airlines flight 1897, from San Antonio to Phoenix, diverted to El Paso due to damage sustained by weather in flight. The aircraft, an Airbus A319 with 130 passengers and a crew of five, landed safely at 8:03 p.m. MT. The aircraft is currently being evaluated by our maintenance team. We never want to disrupt our customers’ travel plans, and we are sorry for the trouble this caused.”

[Locked door]

It’s amazing how many commercial pilots think weather radars can detect hail.

Ice produces virtually no return, hence every year or so we get to see photos like this.

LD

[EDLB]

You can see how happy the FO and Captain is, to be safe on the ground. Definitely worth their pay.

[FIRESYSOK]

It’s amazing how many commercial pilots think weather radars can detect hail.

Ice produces virtually no return, hence every year or so we get to see photos like this.

LD

Hail does produce returns if it is wet enough.

And if it didn’t this time- or any other time for that matter- other than staying home, how would anyone including yourself eliminate the risk entirely?

I’m sure they (and perhaps with concurrence of despatch) thought they were deviating prudently enough.

Armchair warrior indeed.

[Airbubba]

You can see where they may have thought there was a break in the line of weather over New Mexico and then hit a hail shaft in the 'clear' area.

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1299-aa-1897.jpg

[aa73]

Those pics are not of the AA aircraft, they are of the Delta 319 that had a similar encounter not long ago. Note the blue engine cowlings/underside and the gold epaulettes of the DL CA....

[Airbubba]

Those pics are not of the AA aircraft, they are of the Delta 319 that had a similar encounter not long ago. Note the blue engine cowlings/underside and the gold epaulettes of the DL CA....

Thanks for the correction, I'll remove the post. :ok:

[Nemrytter]

Airbubba, relying on the flightaware weather radar graphic can be a bit misleading - it's not always at the same time as whatever incident you're looking at.
That said, insight into the decision making process for the route they took will be very interesting.

[b1lanc]

Thanks for the correction, I'll remove the post. :ok:
Your pic of the nose from the port side was AA (AA tug attached). The revised pic is now on AVH. I think the word damage is an understatement for the radome.

[Airbubba]

Some more web clippings, thanks for the help on finding the correct aircraft.

Video of the pilots after deplaning:

https://youtu.be/D3kqzIulR64

Some pictures from various media and social media sources:

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1302-34287196-1961079510571017-2108110767969533952-n.jpg

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1301-34324823-1961079523904349-4935966292772388864-n.jpg

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1300-34415908-1961079527237682-6908874067244220416-n.jpg

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1295-4996bdea68cabdfa988d87d8194345af58ca9ba3.jpg

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1294-398210247ebdcc72ac9a689dfd2b1746a032f829.jpg

[Jet Jockey A4]

WOW... I'd like to see the leading edges and engine intakes.

[JammedStab]

WOW... I'd like to see the leading edges and engine intakes.

You can see much of the wings and intakes in the first picture with little to no damage. I have noticed this frequently in these hail encounters and would be curious to know if anyone has an explanation for the lack of damage in some area where one would think that there would be damage.

[JammedStab]

Hail does produce returns if it is wet enough.

And if it didn’t this time- or any other time for that matter- other than staying home, how would anyone including yourself eliminate the risk entirely?

I’m sure they (and perhaps with concurrence of despatch) thought they were deviating prudently enough.


Deviate even further than you think is necessary from the big storms over land, especially in areas known for nasty stuff. Not always easy, I know..

[B-757]

It’s amazing how many commercial pilots think weather radars can detect hail.

Ice produces virtually no return, hence every year or so we get to see photos like this.

LD
..True statement..However, radar will detect the moisture where the hail is coming from..Tilt down to below freezing level, and avoid with safe distance..I know it sounds easy, but 0 degrees does not work at FL370..Not referring to this case though, as I do not know what happened..

Fly Safe,
B-757

[Sailvi767]

Hail can be tossed out of a big cell as far as 20 miles downwind. The problem is that if you will only operate when you can remain 20 miles away from a cell your going to be grounded a good part of the summer in the US.

[Airbubba]

A morning after picture from a news report credited to Holly Rush:

https://www.pprune.org/members/2149-airbubba-albums-pictures-post-picture1303-de4md3cueaa0umy-x600.jpg

The nacelle and wing don't look too bad in this shot.

[llondel]

You can see much of the wings and intakes in the first picture with little to no damage. I have noticed this frequently in these hail encounters and would be curious to know if anyone has an explanation for the lack of damage in some area where one would think that there would be damage.

The non-metallic parts are the ones that took the clearly-visible damage. It's possible that there are dents on the other leading edges but I've not seen a close-up that would show impact dents.

[Coochycool]

Thanks for posting. That's the first image I've seen which makes the nature of the damage trully apparent. I think what we're looking at here is some residual inner layers of the radome which have been pushed inwards. Earlier images with poorer contrast had led me to believe that the radome had in fact been entirely erased and we were looking at an exposed forward pressure bulkhead. Merely humble SLF here, so I wonder if others more learned on here can advise whether there have been known instances of aircraft losses under such circumstances, and whether forward bulkheads are ever tested or rated with this scenario in mind?

[tdracer]

. Merely humble SLF here, so I wonder if others more learned on here can advise whether there have been known instances of aircraft losses under such circumstances, and whether forward bulkheads are ever tested or rated with this scenario in mind?

Southern Airways DC-9 - both engines quit due to ingesting massive amounts of hail:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Airways_Flight_242

[lomapaseo]

..... so I wonder if others more learned on here can advise whether there have been known instances of aircraft losses under such circumstances, and whether forward bulkheads are ever tested or rated with this scenario in mind?


The greater risk is from a large bird. They are qualified to absorb a strike at 250 kts

[Centaurus]

Be interesting to know if the disrupted airflow from the shattered radome affected the airspeed and altimeter readings.

[Airbubba]

You can see where they may have thought there was a break in the line of weather over New Mexico and then hit a hail shaft in the 'clear' area.

Here's an animation of AA 1897 navigating through the line of weather:

https://twitter.com/UWCIMSS/status/1004085713401516032

[SLF3]

SLF: Doesn't look like they could see much. How do you land in a situation like this? Presumably the auto-landing system will get you on the ground, but does it also keep you in a straight line while you decelerate?

[wiedehopf]

The tracks of some other aircraft tackling the same storm:https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1230x538/aa1897_tracks_8875acfc2e8d487dd2d0b1ba704816919d599ee8.jpg

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

The aircraft in question was one of the older America West Basic A319's. Unlike the enhanced aircraft the radar is not nearly as good. Its entirely possible it painted returns that looked reasonable to the crew. The enhanced radars are far better and could theoretically have prevented this.

[SeenItAll]

The tracks of some other aircraft tackling the same storm:https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1230x538/aa1897_tracks_8875acfc2e8d487dd2d0b1ba704816919d599ee8.jpg

the only real smart one looks like UAL1521. But again, I wasn't there (thankfully) so really don't know.

[llondel]

Southern Airways DC-9 - both engines quit due to ingesting massive amounts of hail:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Airways_Flight_242

I thought that was more because they suffered compressor stalls but didn't (or couldn't) throttle back to let the engines recover. ISTR that ATC was pushing them to climb so they kept trying to get the engines to produce more power until the compressor blades all fell off.

[MarkerInbound]

SLF: Doesn't look like they could see much. How do you land in a situation like this? Presumably the auto-landing system will get you on the ground, but does it also keep you in a straight line while you decelerate?

Yes, it will continue to track the localizer during the rollout. You have to disconnect the autopilot to turn off the runway.

[wiedehopf]

the only real smart one looks like UAL1521. But again, I wasn't there (thankfully) so really don't know.

i've attempted an overlay with data from https://gis.ncdc.noaa.gov/maps/ncei/radar but at high level the cloud temperature chart probably gives a better picture of the situation.
anyway i'll post it and maybe i just did the overlay wrong but i don't think so.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/864x509/aal_nexrad_d4c88b57244bc8c20a5fdedb440ab2d110b3ca85.jpg

[tdracer]

I thought that was more because they suffered compressor stalls but didn't (or couldn't) throttle back to let the engines recover. ISTR that ATC was pushing them to climb so they kept trying to get the engines to produce more power until the compressor blades all fell off.
Going from memory here, but IIRC the compressor bleeds became plugged with the massive amount of ice - which then lead to the compressor stalls when they tried to accel the engines. However I also seem to recall that there was compressor blade tip curl consistent with ingesting so much incompressible water/ice - the blade damage then contributed to the compressor and inability to clear the stall. Eventually blades started coming apart and it was game over.
Sadly, they were within gliding range of an airport when they lost all power, but for some reason they then temporarily lost battery power (including the radios) and without guidance they turned the wrong way - by the time they got the radio back it was too late - they'd lost too much altitude.

[Airbubba]

Going from memory here, but IIRC the compressor bleeds became plugged with the massive amount of ice - which then lead to the compressor stalls when they tried to accel the engines.

Good memory! :ok: Here's the NTSB report:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR7803.pdf

Years ago I sat through Archie Trammell's analysis of this 1977 mishap and the role of weather radar in the decision to penetrate the line of storms.

[aterpster]

Years ago I sat through Archie Trammell's analysis of this 1977 mishap and the role of weather radar in the decision to penetrate the line of storms.
That's why it's called weather avoidance radar. Also, the radar set on that airplane was likely not very good.

[Airbubba]

An update on the repairs:

http://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/1012444632112816128

[BAengineer]

9 mechanics to change 2 windows and a nose cone in 3 days... methinks someone is milking the overtime....;)

[msbbarratt]

9 mechanics to change 2 windows and a nose cone in 3 days... methinks someone is milking the overtime....;)

There's a lot of buffing out to be done...

[aterpster]

Presumably the auto-landing system will get you on the ground, but does it also keep you in a straight line while you decelerate?
Yes, but it won't taxi you off the runway.

[JammedStab]

Maybe it is best to just go around the whole line instead of penetrating it. This was my flight a little while back. No penetration, no issues. Missed seeing the Grand Canyon though.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/747x521/squall_line_46422a27fb182d8e9eca06e977611e7ada841a5c.png

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

I just finished a 4 day trip, and we picked up ship #806AW, the hail damaged aircraft, in Houston, IAH, and went on to LAX. We kept the same airplane from LAX to CMH, Columbus, OH. It flew just fine. The log book had over 20pages of repair notes and entries since the hail incident on June 3. They did a great job with the airplane. Engine cowls and blades were like new; they probably were. The only thing we could see, and we both did a walk around, was some dings on the inboard leading edges. Both outboard slats had been replaced as had the horizontal stabilizer leading edge.

[stilton]

I must be missing something


Our operations manual prohibits us from making public speeches / talking to the media after an accident/ incident or aircraft damage


Theres no issue with keeping your passengers updated while on the aircraft but
‘holding court’ in the terminal afterwards is ill advised

[hans brinker]

9 mechanics to change 2 windows and a nose cone in 3 days... methinks someone is milking the overtime....;)

4 windows. radome, radar, wing fairing, couple of slats...........

[sandos]

I must be missing something


Our operations manual prohibits us from making public speeches / talking to the media after an accident/ incident or aircraft damage


Theres no issue with keeping your passengers updated while on the aircraft but
‘holding court’ in the terminal afterwards is ill advised

Not a pilot, but I noticed that Iv'e never seen pilots talk about an incident after the fact on video. It felt very odd.

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

[QUOTE=stilton;10186246]

I must be missing something


Our operations manual prohibits us from making public speeches / talking to the media after an accident/ incident or aircraft damage

"You are absolutely correct on that." There should have been no public comments regarding this incident until all the required paperwork was submitted and until this crew had talked to and been given guidance by APA.

[Rick777]

Hail can be tossed out of a big cell as far as 20 miles downwind. The problem is that if you will only operate when you can remain 20 miles away from a cell your going to be grounded a good part of the summer in the US.
I flew all around the US for 35 years and that is exactly what I did. Never got any hail damage.