Emirates coming to town..THEY WANT YOU!!

[jetjockey696]

If anyone is interested to swap the air pollution for sand.. Emirates are coming. For me, I am too tired and too old to jump through 5 stage selection process to be a mission specialist, and slightly above 29 BMI to pass the medical but I probably see you all there.. i get a day pass from the wife..I know there is free tea and small cake wedge.

ANYway for the mighty mighty CX it is the:

Hong Kong SkyCity Marriott Hotel running sessions on Wednesday 13th June at 10:00am and 16:00pm, and Thursday 14th June at 10:00am.

For the hard working slaves chained to the seat.., here are the important stuff..
Contract - Open ended
First officer Captain Roster Pattern Full monthly roster.
Minimum 8 days off.
Annual Hours Average 800-900 hours
Routes24-hour operation.
Mix of turnarounds, long haul and ultra long haul.
Trips are single or multi sector and can be 1-9 days in duration.
Layover periods are generally 24-48 hours.
Days off are in Dubai.
Monthly Basic Salary + Average Flying Pay (plus productivity pay scenarios)
FO-30,125 Captain- AED42,695
Monthly Housing Allowance FO-14,325 AED or Company Provided
Captain- 16,075 AED or Company Provided
FIST OFFICER - Total Monthly Salary44,450 AED tax-free (HKD $94.944 )(Accommodation allowance included)
CAPTAIN - 58,770 AED tax-free (HKD $125.531)(Accommodation allowance included)
Annual Leave 42 days
Education Allowance Primary and Secondary -
Globally Additional Coverage Life and accident insurance, medical and dental coverage, loss of licence insurance
Additional Benefits: Chauffeur-drive, Platinum discount card, company uniform & dry cleaning - Dubai
Confirmed Annual Leave Return Ticket Provided - FO - Y/J eligibility Captain - J/F eligibility
Staff Travel FO- Y/J Eligibility Captain-Y/J/F Eligibility
Retirement Plan
Provident Fund or End of Service Benefit
Emirates Passenger - A380 & B777 & SkyCargo Freighter - B777 positions

[mngmt mole]

Biggest advantage: much quicker upgrade to Captain. Or 13 yrs+ at CX (if Cx lasts that long)

[fire wall]

I'm not sure how this escaped omission but NO TAX, and for Europeans it's 6 hrs travel to home.

[mngmt mole]

It is rumored that EK is seriously considering a "commuter roster" to help stanch the resignation rate at their airline. That, plus the housing, upgrade time, schooling, tax issues etc clearly favor EK as a better career than the failing, incompetent, loser airline that CX has become.

[motley flight crue]

EK has the same issues as CX. Fatigue is chronic, cost of living is expensive and morale is the worst I’ve seen in aviation.

[Heathrow Harry]

Also Tax free status may not last long - a lot of the ME govt are looking at introducing basic Income tax as they try and cut subsidies

[AB335]

Don’t forget you have to live in ME where personal freedom is optional subject to government approval.

[oriental flyer]

The chauffeur service to and from work isn’t everything it’s made out to be . When they collect you from home it’s mostly early so that you check in ahead of schedule and after you land they really seem to be in no rush to get You home .
A friend of mine reports waiting for hours to get home after a long flight
Fatigue both temporary and cumulative are becoming a major issue as well

[Captain Dart]

You young 'uns: engage your BS filters and have a good trawl through the Middle East forum. Not all 'beer and skittles' in the sandpit. But at least there's movement. Where will you be in a decade? FO with this lot in a clapped out A330 going into Manila on a split duty, or commanding a shiny A380 into Heathrow?

Do the ‘hard yards’ there and you just may leave with something to show for it. All you will get after years in your Hong Kong shoebox is more hard yards.

[crwkunt roll]

FIST OFFICER
With the excess of diversity crap being shoved down our throats at the moment, it is a breath of fresh air knowing that EK are finally coming to grips with the modern world.

[Farman Biplane]

Potential Emirates commuting rosters and bases have been used as a carrot for a loo...ong time.
Tell ‘I’m he’s dreamin’!

[flyingbynight]

A quick chat with anybody working at Emirates will soon put you off the idea.

[Frogman1484]

3 crew long haul with min rest...every sim ride or line check is a chop check!!!

They could have the best gig in town, but as CX the managment idots cannot see the benefit of having the crews on side, but would rather make them fight them for everythinand anything.

At Cx to date this year we have 96 pilots leave :

59 Captains (21 retirments and 38 going to other airlines)
20 FO's
13 So's

At this rate, we should have 190 plus resignations by the end of the year. These figures do not include the guys that have given notice.

[CyberT]

I'm not going to argue the Pros and Cons of the sandpit, I'm not an expert on the conditions there.
It is important however when considering a move to think about the future at cx. The conditions in the FH have been going downhill for 20+ years. This decline shows no sign of slowing down, if anything it has accelerated. The current management denies that people are leaving in any great numbers and think we are adequately remunerated, if not overpaid. This is a clear indication of the company's philosophy, they are entitled to their view and I'm sure they are positioning the company to sell to the highest bidder, presumably Air China. We wish them good luck.
For anyone considering a move this is probably the most important factor. However bad the sandpit or other options are, in the long term leaving is probably the better option. Remaining at CX is probably a very bad option indeed if you have more than 12 years or more to go. As the past shows, things will only get worse.

[SOPS]

Be aware everything they tell you as never quite true. For instance the MAX amount of leave you will ever get in a row is 3 weeks. And then they might just stick in 5 day blocks of useless leave in your roster. Fatigue is killing. Buyer beware.

[Fuzuma]

Be aware everything they tell you as never quite true. For instance the MAX amount of leave you will ever get in a row is 3 weeks

Not true, perhaps whilst you still worked there, but that was a while ago.......I had 28 days at the beginning of the year.

after you land they really seem to be in no rush to get You home .
A friend of mine reports waiting for hours to get home after a long fligh

Absolute rubbish.....almost every drive to or from work, seems to be a poor demonstration on how the driver wished he’d been a formula 1 driver, most times resulting in a request to slow down to avoid vomiting into that ridiculous hat they insist pilots still carry around. As for waiting around for hours, perhaps 20-30 mins on a bad busy day, but generally I’ve never waited that long, having said that, after an all nighter 20mins may feel like hours to some.....

[raven11]

There are perks in most good jobs. I suppose the boys and girls at Emirates should be thankful for the chauffeur perk. Our cabin crew should be thankful for the taxi provided if they land before 0530 local. We the good pilots of Cathay get neither.

The perks for a Cathay pilot have been purposely withdrawn bit by bit over the past two decades. At one time it was the best pay/perk package available...whereas now we are told we must be paid as “benchmarked” against the local low cost carriers.

We’re not even bench marked against our sister airline at Dragon...no Mam, only low cost carriers will do now days.

Can you imagine the howls of laughter on the ninth floor if we asked for a chauffeur service to/from work....

[Apple Tree Yard]

Discussion with long time friend, now management on the 380 EK. To wit:

- senior management in crisis, as Sheik M has made it known that they MUST do whatever it takes to staff and operate the airline properly
- effectively 450 - 500 pilots short, and getting worse by the week
- effectively 45+ aircraft parked, either actually, or virtually due reduced daily utilization
- resignation rate now critical, as pilots have other options (hello Anna...)
- basing not happening at EK (legal and practical reasons, hello CX), BUT commuter rosters are being constructed and about to be introduced (hello Anna)
- increase in pay package (hello Anna)
- increase in leave blocks (hello Anna)
- other sweetness to make EK the 'Best' airline to work for in ME

Overall, he told me that they will no longer allow themselves to be compromised, as the amount of money necessary to keep the pilots happy is FAR less (hello Anna) than that being cost by parked aircraft and uncontrollable training cost (hello Anna). Take that, as well as much quicker time to command and you have a better career option than CX. A much better one.

[FlyingNun]

Here’s a typical Q & A at a MidEast airline interview:
Are Trade Unions allowed in the UAE?
a) Whats that... hmmm No.
Are there any Labour Laws enforced by fairness and independent courts?
a) Hmmmmm.... next question.!!
Is there a Redundency Policy of Last in - First Out?
a) Not exactly... if your face doesn’t fit, then you’re out.
FTL’s?
a) We own the copyrights, so we can amend them as we go along.

[Monarch Man]

Discussion with long time friend, now management on the 380 EK. To wit:

- senior management in crisis, as Sheik M has made it known that they MUST do whatever it takes to staff and operate the airline properly
- effectively 450 - 500 pilots short, and getting worse by the week
- effectively 45+ aircraft parked, either actually, or virtually due reduced daily utilization
- resignation rate now critical, as pilots have other options (hello Anna...)
- basing not happening at EK (legal and practical reasons, hello CX), BUT commuter rosters are being constructed and about to be introduced (hello Anna)
- increase in pay package (hello Anna)
- increase in leave blocks (hello Anna)
- other sweetness to make EK the 'Best' airline to work for in ME

Overall, he told me that they will no longer allow themselves to be compromised, as the amount of money necessary to keep the pilots happy is FAR less (hello Anna) than that being cost by parked aircraft and uncontrollable training cost (hello Anna). Take that, as well as much quicker time to command and you have a better career option than CX. A much better one.

Id be VERY suspicious of ANYTHING coming out of flight Ops management, EK are masters of the talk, but continue to under-deliver. Smoke and mirrors along with a punitive greedy mindset from the “untouchable” local element has led them to where they are.
Having friends in high places means nothing if they are expats, they will only ever have a partial picture unless they are STC and even then it’s become apparent even he has not been bothered regarding the continued stream of experience out of DXB.
As for commuting rosters, I will believe it when I see it, never say never but to me its BS as they can’t operate the roster now without parking aeroplanes.
In short EK are no different to others in that they will lie and mislead until they have you, and then their attitude is one of ownership rather than partnership.
Caveat Emptor.

[mngmt mole]

All too true, in the previous reality. However, the situation has now drastically changed and EK recognize they risk collapse if they cant retain and recruit pilots. The old ways wont work anymore. Only the airlines with management that quickly recognize that will ultimately survive.

[SOPS]

EK should have realised this years ago. But arrogance and hubris did not let them do it then...and it wont let them do it now. Had they honored my contact..as it was written and the one I signed..I would still be there. And if any one going from CX to EK believes what they tell you at the road shows, what they tell you when you join...its all smoke and mirrors. And remember...you are bonded for 5 years...

[Rhodes13]

mngmt mole if what you say is true why did they insult us with the "pay rise"? We've heard stories of things improving for years however this is the management that just introduced three man LRV flights. When they got caught out they then claimed we all misunderstood them and it was only an idea after taking guys off line and threatening them with demotion/firing for expressing concerns with their plans. That doesn't sound like a company that is worried about people leaving. Couple that with the fact that the acting DVSP FOP has openly said he's not worried about retention and more about recruitment and I'm not really sure where you think that they are now at panic mode. No one who has left recently has been asked what could be done to get them to stay so like others have said ill believe it when I see it. In the mean time their arrogance and hubris will continue unabated.

[mngmt mole]

It is a characteristic of hubris and arrogance to pretend that the crisis isn't real, until the situation suddenly is catastrophic. We are experiencing exactly the same scenario here at CX, a management that continues to believe the circumstances are no different than 15 yrs ago (oh, other than an ever increasing rate of resignations, an operation that is falling apart, and an inability to attract new applicants). Let them continue with their self-delusion, as very soon their ability to explain away all the parked aircraft will be sorely tested. The aircrew for both EK and CX only need to purchase some popcorn, get settled in a comfy chair and watch the approaching chaos with glee.

[felixthecat]

Discussion with long time friend, now management on the 380 EK. To wit:

- senior management in crisis, as Sheik M has made it known that they MUST do whatever it takes to staff and operate the airline properly
- effectively 450 - 500 pilots short, and getting worse by the week
- effectively 45+ aircraft parked, either actually, or virtually due reduced daily utilization
- resignation rate now critical, as pilots have other options (hello Anna...)
- basing not happening at EK (legal and practical reasons, hello CX), BUT commuter rosters are being constructed and about to be introduced (hello Anna)
- increase in pay package (hello Anna)
- increase in leave blocks (hello Anna)
- other sweetness to make EK the 'Best' airline to work for in ME

Overall, he told me that they will no longer allow themselves to be compromised, as the amount of money necessary to keep the pilots happy is FAR less (hello Anna) than that being cost by parked aircraft and uncontrollable training cost (hello Anna). Take that, as well as much quicker time to command and you have a better career option than CX. A much better one.

BUT commuter rosters are being constructed and about to be introduced - Really? Like the commuting noncommuting rosters on Emirates freighters? Until you see it in writing don't believe it and even then don't believe it.

- increase in pay package (hello Anna)- strange they didn't increase it in the latest EK pay reviews why would they now a month later?
- increase in leave blocks (hello Anna) - Really??? Short of pilots yet increased leave, doesn't really add up that one does it.
- other sweetness to make EK the 'Best' airline to work for in ME - like what for example? 3 man ULR flights?

Don't believe what your long-term management friend tells you. The guys on the shop floor will tell you a completely different story.

[mngmt mole]

Felix. I have no insight as to your managements thinking (other than I hope it's more sensible than ours), but I think that your frustration and anger is a good reason to suspect that your management had better start improving thing quickly. Like many of our pilots who are leaving, there are better options out there for yours as well, and nothing short of a revolutionary change in management mindset will stop the collapse, either there or here. Best wishes for the future. MM

[mngmt mole]

Cost of satisfying crew expectations:
​​Approx $400,000 usd / day.

Cost of a few parked 777 / 380’s:
Approx $1,500,000 usd / day

Cost of deluded and arrogant management:
In Cx case (fuel hedging). Approx $3,000,000 usd / day (sickening and absurd but true).

Conclusion: A decades long fight with their aircrew and saving $400,000 usd /day (and their “face”) is more important than the other $4,500,000 / day that they are squandering to win (!) the smaller battle.

And you wonder why the pilots are leaving in droves.

[Monarch Man]

Cost of satisfying crew expectations:
​​Approx $400,000 usd / day.

Cost of a few parked 777 / 380’s:
Approx $1,500,000 usd / day

But you are forgetting Habibi, by paying crews extra, those parked frames will be flying so won't cost anything, therefore paying the crew will cost the 400 +1.5 , so its all the crews lazy ungrateful fault Habibi and nothing to do with management.
That is the retarded punitive logic that exists at EK.

[Freehills]

Yep. Mgmt mole - if EK or CX thought logically, neither of them would have pilots leaving in droves. Wishful thinking that either will change in near future, at the moment going form one to the other looks like a frying pan/ fire situation

[Apple Tree Yard]

Freehills, CX and EK are following the tedious, time worn path of many other legacy airlines before them (PanAm, Eastern, TWA, Monarch etc). We all know the outcome of that don't we? Of course, there are management lackeys like MorningCoffee who are desperate to pretend that all is fine at CX, and that having Captains resign to become SO's at other airlines is completely normal in the industry (!). CX will obviously have to learn the hard way, that times have changed, and pilots don't have to subject themselves to disrespect, penury and abuse. We all have much better options, and as more leave, more WILL leave. MC can type all he wants to the contrary, the facts will soon establish themselves with this airline, and probably EK. The days of the tyrannical airline management have come to an end, and it's only a question whether the airlines they are managing will end with them. Jury is out.

[positionalpor]

I wonder how many millions of hkd CX threw away in training for all those SO, FO and now even Captains. Perhaps Numero can enlighten us.HR at his best.Not!

[Rated De]

What pilots ought consider is the message it sends airline management. The cartel may well be turning on each other.

Many insiders can detail the quiet no compete deals airlines strike with each other, to limit poaching. IATA conferences are full of such chats...

Interestingly, as globalisation actually works for pilots with a demographic and structural shortage evident all over the globe this 'drive' suggests that EK are well aware of the discontent at CX and notwithstanding the many shortcomings of life in the dystopian nightmare of UAE, EK are prepared to target competitors strategic asset base; their pilots.

[kenfoggo]

Rated De - The CEO absolutely does not consider the flight crew as an “asset base”. On the contrary, they are a liability which has to be managed within tight cost restrictions. He is content that pilot resignations are within acceptable levels and he is content to see all that experience and ,more importantly, the money involved in training those pilots, just walk out the door to join competitors.

[mngmt mole]

Well, the fact that EK is having a roadshow IN Hong Kong says all you need to know about how "other" airline managements view the impending crewing crisis, and in particular, how they are now well aware of the discontent at CX. As for pilots "walking" out the door. How about "running" out the door? That seems a more accurate description of what is happening at CX. As a friend (another Captain) told me yesterday, his FO of the day before, on his way to QF said, "once I received the job offer, it felt like an elephant had been lifted off my shoulders". Oh, and his wife gave him his first (insert two letters) in 3 years! (quote).

[Freehills]

eh - they could be targetting HKA/ HKE as well. CX isn't the only messed up airline in HK

[mngmt mole]

Fair enough. At least you can get a reasonably quick command at HKA. Or, you can rot as an SO for 5+ years at CX, and then maybe a Command another 10 years after that. Of course, you will have been committed to a psych ward long before that working for the most dysfunctional airline in this hemisphere.

[Rated De]

Rated De - The CEO absolutely does not consider the flight crew as an “asset base”. On the contrary, they are a liability which has to be managed within tight cost restrictions. He is content that pilot resignations are within acceptable levels and he is content to see all that experience and ,more importantly, the money involved in training those pilots, just walk out the door to join competitors.





Ken, never would we assert that more than 10% of airlines world wide openly consider pilots strategic assets. They are a big part of the unit cost to most airline managements and treated accordingly. If one digs a little through the management ranks and corporate types festering around HR and management of airlines, two almost universal characteristics are observed: They all love aviation and most wanted/tried couldn't and now simply resent, those who can fly. A large part of what 'drives' many of them is envy.
A certain CEO south of Hong Kong has a carefully 'crafted' story regarding his love of aviation. Apparently it was eyesight that stopped him being a pilot, when the fact is well before an ophthalmologist could have tapped in on the shoulder, failed Aptitude testing did. The shoulders these days carry two chips!
(bonus points for guessing the second one!)

The point being is that without pilots, Operating Revenue is pretty hard to come by. All those fancy jets sitting in the sand in Dubai on static display are a rather costly 'theme park' without pilots.

[Flex88]

Discussion with long time friend, now management on the 380 EK. To wit:

- senior management in crisis, as Sheik M has made it known that they MUST do whatever it takes to staff and operate the airline properly
- effectively 450 - 500 pilots short, and getting worse by the week
- effectively 45+ aircraft parked, either actually, or virtually due reduced daily utilization
- resignation rate now critical, as pilots have other options (hello Anna...)
- basing not happening at EK (legal and practical reasons, hello CX), BUT commuter rosters are being constructed and about to be introduced (hello Anna)
- increase in pay package (hello Anna)
- increase in leave blocks (hello Anna)
- other sweetness to make EK the 'Best' airline to work for in ME

Overall, he told me that they will no longer allow themselves to be compromised, as the amount of money necessary to keep the pilots happy is FAR less (hello Anna) than that being cost by parked aircraft and uncontrollable training cost (hello Anna). Take that, as well as much quicker time to command and you have a better career option than CX. A much better one.

Anna got her "pineapple", Anna no like "pineapple", Anna gone.... Now Jellyfish big boss - he fix all problem for sure.

[krismiler]

QATAR Airways used to be one of the worst jobs in the Middle East until they saw the light and improved things for the pilots, now it’s still not perfect but a huge improvement over what it was 10 years ago.

Emirates used to be one of the best jobs until they let it slide.

[GillEx737]

QATAR Airways used to be one of the worst jobs in the Middle East until they saw the light and improved things for the pilots, now it’s still not perfect but a huge improvement over what it was 10 years ago.

Emirates used to be one of the best jobs until they let it slide.

I'm sorry - i'm not the happiest EK pilot out there but the friends I have at Qatar are absolutely miserable. It is 100 times worse, and 100 times more covered up. At least we can actually express our discontent publicly. The worst part is my friends are struggling to get out - the hoops they have to jump through are ridiculous and they're seriously close to breaking point. I'd rather be tied to EK forever (which I'm not) than spend a second at Qatar from what I've heard.

As much as EK is a bit of a mess at times, I know there are some good people trying to change things. And more colleagues can only help so I encourage people to give it a go if they're unhappy elsewhere.

[mngmt mole]

Thank you for what appears to be a very honest and balanced viewpoint. Hopefully yoir management will wake up before its too late. Not much sign of that at CX sadly. The death spiral continues here.

[SandPitted]

I wish no offence but very few of you here "get it". Capt Dart seems to.

They force us into being mercenaries so be a mercenary. This may mean reshaping the plans you had conceived years back. What does CX offer you today and into the future? NOTHING but perpetual attacks on your conditions of service until they bring you down to the sewer of C-Scale. Your housing is already being threatened and you've only a stay of execution already. The ME3 is not a dream by any stretch but if you don't do your due diligence a la the average new joiner to CX then all the more fool you. The ME offers a Command within ⅓ to ¼ of the time of CX, maybe less.

(Friends who have come and gone from HKA/E tell me it's a nepotistic nightmare & standards disgrace: what would you expect when they take CX Cat D pilots, fast track them to Command and then become Training Managers!? Their 787 fleet is being headed by a Malaysian guy who is doing nothing but recruiting buddies who share the same passport so nothing changes at HKA/E. It just stays ignorantly the same it seems, so don't use them as a yard stick.)

From a guy who's been around the traps, get out of CX if you have experience and a CV that has a backbone: less & less common nowadays I'll admit. If you have a CX Command on B-Scale then stay until the writing is on the wall by way of housing and other well deserved benefits of your employment. For others, use the ME to get a (wide body) Command and put up with the local ways, deceitful management, the heat and rest of the BS. Enjoy the brunches! 3-5 years is a long time in this job so anything could change. With a tax free (depending on own nationality laws of course) USD $25k per month being more the benchmark than the exception for widebody Command contracts, with European, Nth American & Aussie bases, commuting contracts the norm, etc then it's not a bad situation to be in after perhaps 5 years. Of course it's not for everyone....

The ME3 exists on pure arrogance and false economies. They will not go under due these facts. They may morph slightly but their hatred of each other, arrogance and pride will not see them fail. They'll always be artificially propped up which serves your short term goals, unlike anything in HK right now. Few at EK, EY or QR truly are "happy" but who in this career are anymore? It's better the devil you can accept to get what you want out of the situation. They still offer a housing allowance that can pay off a mortgage and education allowance that will cover most of a kid's education.

Use them as they use us. Get what you can while never undermining your colleagues or industry.

[mmmbop]

As much as EK is a bit of a mess at times, I know there are some good people trying to change things. And more colleagues can only help so I encourage people to give it a go if they're unhappy elsewhere.


GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a Pprune member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent Pprune before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.

[icemankk2001]

Why dont someone post how much a CX capt earning in CX.... then everyone will.know that nobody in CX are going... not even thinking.

[SOPS]

GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a Pprune member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent Pprune before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.

What he said.........

[GillEx737]

GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a Pprune member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent Pprune before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.

Oh is that right? Honestly you lot are absolutely pathetic. THIS is one of the things I hate about EK - miserable old buggers willing to tear down their own colleagues if they don't like what's being said. You are half the reason this bullying culture flourishes, by targeting your own if they don't feel as bitter and twisted as you. You have absolutely no idea who I am - and trust me I'm not a 'Costa Coffee Dweller' - I just know that the grass isn't always greener and although I'm working like a dog it's still worth it for me and my family.

And SOPS - you don't work for EK anymore. Get a life or at least enjoy your own and let go of the bitterness. It's embarrassing.

[SOPS]

Oh is that right? Honestly you lot are absolutely pathetic. THIS is one of the things I hate about EK - miserable old buggers willing to tear down their own colleagues if they don't like what's being said. You are half the reason this bullying culture flourishes, by targeting your own if they don't feel as bitter and twisted as you. You have absolutely no idea who I am - and trust me I'm not a 'Costa Coffee Dweller' - I just know that the grass isn't always greener and although I'm working like a dog it's still worth it for me and my family.

And SOPS - you don't work for EK anymore. Get a life or at least enjoy your own and let go of the bitterness. It's embarrassing.
Harsh Gill harsh. You allowed your opinion and those of us us that worked a long time at EK are not allowed ours? I have a great life thanks....if you find my posts embarrassing to read..then dont do it.

[Shep69]

Spent a lifetime in the Middle East over a few years. So while it may not be for me personally it may well be a good fit for others.

The key is to realize there are often better opportunities out there for most of us and if you are not happy take the plunge to move on. All you get in life is time and you never know how much time you get.

And sometimes the grass is really greener.

https://youtu.be/rz5wxJ8k0e4

[Emma Royds]

As an EK aviator, this is my advice for anyone who might be tempted coming from HKG.

Only consider moving if being based in Dubai suits your own personal circumstances better than HK. I am not talking about the pros versus the cons with both places but rather from a perspective of Dubai being closer to where you may have interests and even then, the circumstances have to be very compelling since 'me' time can be limited and especially on the 777 fleet.

Points to bear in mind though:

- For a number in HKG, it will be a pay cut coming to EK. Budget on around 30,000 AED (65,000 HKD) a month or 44,000 AED (94,000 HKD) if you take the housing allowance and that is it as an F/O! Be expected to be quoted various sweeteners such as productivity pay and call out pay but the company will do its utmost to roster you to literally minutes within the productivity threshold and you only get call out pay if you answer your phone on a day off and given how precious days off are here you would be mad to - need I say more? https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

- The air is very polluted here during the summer due to dust and the overall air quality is no different to what you will have in HKG and could at times be worse. It is more pleasant during the winter months however. The World Bank published a paper a few years back and ranked the UAE has having some of the worst air quality in the world.

- Dubai is no longer tax free with VAT having been brought in this year and now that the hard part is done of implementing a VAT system, it is far easier for the rate to be manipulated as appropriate. Some costs here (such as running a car) are very cheap compared to HKG but others are more expensive.

- Time to command has and will always be fluid and the timescale the HR boffins will tell you is what is happening now as no one can say with any certainty, as to what time to command will be in the years ahead. Take what is said with a pinch of salt and do not let it be a main deciding factor in coming.

- If you take company accommodation then you are 'locked in' unless you are forced to move at any time from company accommodation or if you wish to move out of company accommodation and buy. The location of company accommodation that is assigned has in general become 'less desirable' during recent years compared to the past. Rents are and have been decreasing, with there being an abundance of empty houses and apartments within Dubai, so it is certainly a renters market at the moment with ample room for negotiation.

- Read the small print and carefully do your home work with schooling and medical costs for your family, since what the company may give you, may not cover the entire cost. I mention this as it is obviously important if you are coming from an environment where you could be facing a drop in salary!

- There will not be any commuting roster and the company has no desire to embrace any concept of part time working and nor do we have the numbers to allow such a practice any time soon. Compared to 777 contract jobs, the freighter option that is advertised is a poor option for a new joiner. You could join Korean and get roughly the same remuneration plus tickets home and increase the total number of days off in your block by over a third per year. It is of course different for someone already in EK and especially someone who has been here a while.

Morale on the line is not great at present and the feeling of discontent and frustration with management is palpable and ever growing. It could be the best wide body job in the world and some little changes would go a long long way but sadly the individuals who are in positions of control, are by in large ineffective and lack the competency required. For some at CX, it could be a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

I don't wish to sound negative but I am purely trying to add a balanced perspective to all the positive points that the company will bombard you with, should you consider applying. If you have not visited Dubai yet and are considering joining then come for a look first and formulate your own perspective. The assessment process is tiring and gives you little time to have a look around.

[Gnadenburg]

At the end of the day, However, its an option for Cathay Dragon Guys to get sone long haul experience on a decent type, and live nearer to Europe. But then what?


I don't pretend to speak for all KA pilots, but WTF is the attraction of flying long-haul, across east-west time zones? On a decent type? I mean an airliner is an airliner ? I prefer exhaustion to exhaustion and jet lag .

See this from the CX guys. On one hand they claim I get paid more, yet their operations management staff think there's a hidden desire for KA guys to want to fly CX type flying or God forbid be integrated?

Both EK and CX are bottom of the pile jobs at the moment. Perhaps you guys could just swap village idiots?

[raven11]

Gnadenburg

It’s not a “claim”...you are paid more. The 13th month bonus is part of your contract, it’s not in ours. Sadly, as we CX pilots discovered last year, what that means is that the Dragon Air pilots and flight attendants, in addition to our flight attendants at CX, never have to worry about receiving it. That might seem inconsequential to you, but I assure you it’s not for us.

Can an you give me an explanation as to why you might perceive that as fair?

[giggerty]

Hi Raven.
It's true. We do have the 13th month guaranteed in our COS. However I don't know we get paid more. Apparently ( and I'm happy to be corrected if wrong) CX pilots had the 13th month incorporated into their monthly wage back in the early 90s. This should mean ( again I'm not certain of this) that if you compare like for like then a CX pilots basic salary is higher. It also means that any OT etc is calculated at a higher base rate. You'll probably find it's a swings and roundabouts scenario. It's been suggested a few times that we roll the 13th month into our monthly wage but the idea has never gained much traction.

Gnad hit the nail on the head too regarding long haul. Personally I still enjoy flying. The take off and landing bits. I do 30 to 40 sectors a month. The idea of flying 10+ hours in the cruise and not even get a landing would quickly drain the fun out of it. No wonder everyone at CX is angry. Sure you go to nicer destinations than us, but on the other hand I sleep in my own bed most nights. I can't see too many KA guys jumping ship to EK for a pay cut and some long haul fatigue. I couldn't imagine too many would bid even for CX if it ever came to that. I wouldn't.

[Gnadenburg]

Gnadenburg

It’s not a “claim”...you are paid more. The 13th month bonus is part of your contract, it’s not in ours. Sadly, as we CX pilots discovered last year, what that means is that the Dragon Air pilots and flight attendants, in addition to our flight attendants at CX, never have to worry about receiving it. That might seem inconsequential to you, but I assure you it’s not for us.

Can an you give me an explanation as to why you might perceive that as fair?





Raven

I don't like the way you are treated. Actually, I don't like the way we are treated or are going to be treated. It's not fair ! It's a destructive way to conduct business and drives immeasurable inefficiencies. But it may be the way forward we all have to get used to if they are shrinking CX?

Now I'd really like to see CX pilots' tax certificates. Say 10-15 year Captains so apples and oranges can finally be compared. I've asked many times on pprune and debate goes quiet. Soon after the regular bluster fires up again from CX pilots about KA pilots getting paid much more. The non-payment of your discretionary CNY bonus perhaps, will make a significant difference. But again, a look at annual taxation returns, may be brutally honest. Why don't you PM me yours?

When we were in our CC campaign at KA I can not recall whining about CX pilots getting paid more- and by the admission of RH you were! It is actually a professional slur on many of you. A legacy pilot foolishness and spite, that only ever achieves management objectives of lowering the COS of all. I think industrial-organizational psychology at CX plays this division well . Management are planting rumours about KA that will see CX pilots happy with small or zero gains in areas, as long as they think they are doing it better than KA pilots. Don't believe, read the trash here on pprune.

I'm happy to admit there are a number of jobs I'm envious of. CX and EK are neither of them.

[giggerty]

Further to my previous post. My intention wasn't to undermine your claim. I think it was an appalling decision to single out CX captains to be the only ones not to get a CNY bonus. You have every right to be royally pissed off. It was a dumb, vindictive decision on CX managements part which has succeeded only in uniting the Cx pilot body even more. Stick to your guns. You deserve better.

Cap8. You're right. China isn't fun some days. However we wouldn't do the type of roster you posted.( not often anyway) For a start a single G day is not allowed under our RPA ( we still have one) unless you have been given one of you 5 joker G day blocks. Also, China being the nightmare it is, the company has been forced to increase turn around times. That has started to limit the number of sectors you can do in a day. The "optimiser" seems to be a bit random. Some guys on 60 hours a month some on 100.
Horses for courses. You like your long haul mixed with a bit of fatigue. I'll stick with actually flying mixed with some China frustration and a dash of tiredness.

[greenfields]

EK crew are on long haul, but still only manage 9/10 G days a month . Just saying .

EK crew are Long, Medium and Short Haul. A certain psychopathic manager targets 8 days off a month for Tech Crew because he considers them the same as office staff.

Try getting a sleeping pattern with that type of flying.

[YellowFever777]

I hear some ka pilots even do over 3 hours discretion

Complete anomaly, I think you'll find that KA captains willing to go into discretion are few and far between.

[doremi]

Anyone know if they have overseas education? Thanks

[TheGreenDragon]

Complete anomaly, I think you'll find that KA captains willing to go into discretion are few and far between.

Ok 3 hours was mad n crazy but plenty of the skippers doing 1-2 hours xtra . Especially the A320 guys with their C scale keenness. L.

[TheGreenDragon]

Its now 2 years of Nothing . Except 4.5% inflation.

Yep and 80 or so guys actually gave up their evening at home to attend the AGM to actually vote for the Zero % pay offer. How can this be ? Mad Mad Mad.

KA is not an angry place. Even a eunuch once had balls, not crew@ Cathay Dragon

No chance anyone will be brave enoght to go to EK QR . Not a chance . Cockpit moaners only.

[GKOC41]

A quick chat with anybody working at Emirates will soon put you off the idea.
Grass is greener at Cathy come on admit it

[mmmbop]

Oh is that right? Honestly you lot are absolutely pathetic. THIS is one of the things I hate about EK - miserable old buggers willing to tear down their own colleagues if they don't like what's being said. You are half the reason this bullying culture flourishes, by targeting your own if they don't feel as bitter and twisted as you. You have absolutely no idea who I am - and trust me I'm not a 'Costa Coffee Dweller' - I just know that the grass isn't always greener and although I'm working like a dog it's still worth it for me and my family.

And SOPS - you don't work for EK anymore. Get a life or at least enjoy your own and let go of the bitterness. It's embarrassing.

Well come on then Gill, if you are a genuine pilot how long have you been at EK? I'll take a wild guess if you are in fact a pilot - less than 18 months, and Turboprop or LCC to EK. So the bright shiny jets, and free food at the moment seem fantastic. As do the Cabin Crew.

For the record, I did 7 1/2 years. There is no bullying culture among pilots (only a Costa Coffee dweller would think there is), the bullying is management to pilot. EK was, without doubt, one of the best flight decks I have worked on regarding camaraderie . But perspective? Camaraderie was huge in the WW1. WW2. Korea. VietNam. The Gulf War.

There is a reason for that. In time, you'll work it out.

[From a distance]

Yep, Comrades in adversity. Them against Us.

[icemankk2001]

Exactly.... the grass way greener in CX... but nobody admit it. If not happy leave. The queue is LONG waiting to go in. hehehe.....

[raven11]

Iceman,
Then by all means throw in your CV...ignore all the warnings as meaningless....they’d love you!
hehehe..

[mngmt mole]

Iceman. Sincere question: How old are you? My son is 12 and you both write seemingly at the same level.

[tomuchwork]

I'm not sure how this escaped omission but NO TAX, and for Europeans it's 6 hrs travel to home.

Nahhhh. Have been there(ok, crappy Doha with even crappier youknowthatfamous5starmorons with that even better CEO they STILL have over there and BEING an European.

For over 10 years out of this sand hell hole and enjoy paying my tax(because I know for what I am paying after I have seen the Landcruiser faction), enjoy living in europe, enjoy seing my kids grow up in a FREE society with proper education, flying for one of the low costs here in Europe(yeah, I know, no fance first or biz class food or food at all, but you know what, I am living in a free country and more importantly, see wife and kids EVERY bloody day of my life(ok, can be a downturn for some of my fellow skippers, I know, I know ;-) ), sleeping in my own bed EVERY night.

Thought about frigging China for a second or 2, read the (very funny) "magic" book, shared some laughts with my first officers reading it and clearly came to the conclusion. MONEY counts NOTHING if you are not at the place you want to be(and together with a happy family). I have been for sooooo many nightstops in HK, know bloody Doha much better then anyone would like to know, same goes for Dubai which is a tad better(but not really that much to be honest). Still I cannot understand WHAT the attraction of this places are to so many pilots to give up a civilized life(especially if you come from (Western)Europe or Australia/NZ. I understand that money is a big attaction for guys from Africa or Southeast Asia, but really, all the rest.... No idea. I guess marketing isreally a bitch and to many fall for it.

Steer clear. Build a proper career in a free country(nope, ME does NOT count to that, sorry to destroy that dream), be happy with a bit less money on a slightly smaller airframe(WHO really cares HOW long that thing is AFTER the cockpitdoor, at the end it does not matter if it is a 737(apart from the prehistoric cockpit I am "enjoying" ;-) ), 747, 767, 777 or a flying almost alone 787(if you are a airbus jockey but the other figures in). To be fair I have been a Widebody skipper so I know what I am talking about. I understand the "attraction" of widebody aircraft have to some of us and I have met actually really a bunch of people that REALLY enjoyed sitting in that stupid thing for 17 hours in a row. Even their agurmentation sounded fishy to me(why they like it), but at the end it is their choice. I guess if it is just money you are after long haul makes more sense, less sectors for much more money. I want to belief I am not the only one that still likes flying(even after sooo many years) that actually I enjoy a nice approach and landing and the interactions during a turnaround on a 4 sector day. For me THAT is flying. The other thing is riding a bus to it's end, managing some ETOPS checks, maybe the occasional drift down calcualtion, that's it(let's be honest).

As an European being around in the Biz a while I only enjoyed 2 places very much - Australia(was once with long dead Ansett) and of course more or less all "gigs" back home. Protected by proper laws, there is always an agency you can turn to if the employer tries to trow some good old BS at you and at the end they will have to take all back with that bitter old sorry smile, hehe. Never happened during my time in the ME. Was always me with that bitter smile....

Think well.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Amen brother, amen.

[CX ex]

Truth.....

[mngmt mole]

If you intend on remaining single and childless for the rest of your life, and are perhaps a bit nomadic, then an expat job might tick a few boxes. If you want a normal, settled and relatively stable life, with the best chance for your family to grow roots (both geographically and morally), then the best (and frankly, only) option is to build a career with a decent airline back home. As the OP suggests, MONEY is the worst reason to choose a job/career. Chasing that through CX will lead mainly to frustration, misery and regret.

[shortly2]

Why do the same sorry few write the same sorry stories about Cathay. I have friends flying all over the world in most of the main airlines. From what they tell me CX is no better and certainly no worse than most other places. I have been here a long time. The Company ALWAYS helped me when I really needed it, bereavements etc. I will show loyalty to them just for that fact. I can assure you that CX is still providing support to all workers when they need it. It's about time the wingers left and we sorted out the differences between us and them. I am happy to take a little pain for longer term gain. You think the sand pit is better mha ha ha. An expat lifestyle can be a joy, it all depends how YOU approach it.

[raven11]

When 999 people reach the same conclusion, yet you’ve concluded something else...you are either incredibly smart or incredibly wrong....

Shortly2...You might see yourself as a “worker”, and that’s fine, but the obvious inference I draw is that you’re not a pilot. So while you think about the above sentence, tap your pencil on your chin and try to consider why so many people disagree with your assertions. Then snap out of it and return to your critically important clerical functions...

[Despot75]

When 999 people reach the same conclusion, yet you’ve concluded something else...you are either incredibly smart or incredibly wrong....

Shortly2...You might see yourself as a “worker”, and that’s fine, but the obvious inference I draw from that is that you’re not a pilot. So while you think about the above sentence, tap your pencil on your chin and try to consider why so many people disagree with your assertions. Then snap out of it and return to your critically important clerical functions...
What he said....

[mr did]

An expat lifestyle can be a joy, it all depends how YOU approach it.

Has it occurred to you that no one has been employed on expat terms at Cathay for literally years?? Probably why so many of your "Sorry Few" are leaving in such large numbers.

[mngmt mole]

shortly2. As raven11 pointed out, when you seem to reach a conclusion that is at opposition to nearly the entire body of pilots at CX....then you sir, are in need of help. By all means be one of CX's "useful idiots" and support the unsupportable. In the meantime, most of the pilots at CX are making firm plans to leave and become employed with employers that will respect the norms of labour law and contract integrity. Even putting those issues aside, no one can seriously consider raising and financially supporting a family in a city where even owning a shoebox sized apartment is out of the question. At least at home, most of us can afford a nice home, two cars in garage and schooling for our children. Apparently, CX management consider ALL of those things unwarranted luxuries (other than for their chosen management overlords).

[Captain Dart]

In Shortly's defence, posters are more likely to bitch and moan on a bulletin board than log on to make a positive statement. But I can assure him that the current resignation rate at CX is unprecedented, and it involves most demographics among its pilots, not just 'wingers' (sic). Goodness knows how much they spend on uptraining the replacements for the resignees.

I refer him to many of my previous posts. The sand pit is not paradise on earth either, but at least there is movement (reasonably fast career progression) and a semblance of a normal life in reasonable housing. Newly-joining expats to CX can expect sub-standard accommodation in one of the world's most expensive, crowded cities, slow promotion (training constraints and a young captain demographic), and to work for an airline that is a one trick pony crimped by its single crowded hub and ever-increasing competition from the mainland, overflying, airlines. Judging by who I have been flying with over the last few years, the CX pilot component will be reduced to:

Whatever locals they can pay for to train
Relatively young B Scale captains entrenched in grandfathered housing, salary and conditions
A few based crew, who will not be replaced as they leave so that the bases will wither on the vine
South Africans, who currently have limited options in their home country
Young 'shiny jetters' who, once experienced and having warmed the seat long enough, will depart for their home carriers at the speed of heat

But perhaps that's what management want.

[icemankk2001]

mngmt mole....
have you resigned? better be fast.... dont just bitch about it....
ppl are waiting......

[spleener]

mngmt mole....
have you resigned? better be fast.... dont just bitch about it....
ppl are waiting......
Well, that post certainly says more about you than you realise Iceman.

[SOPS]

They have come and gone. Anyone got an opinion on what was offered?

[YellowFever777]

They have come and gone. Anyone got an opinion on what was offered?


A hard sell, T&C on offer a bit less than what swire are offering - possibly a bit more than what hka/hke offer. Particularly brutal rosters. Could definitely make sense for jfo's and fo's facing a long wait for command in cx, EK suggesting 4 years to command for new joiners is possible at the moment.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Would have to think long and hard about going to EK, things are not pretty there at all

[1_of_600]

Etihad to second pilots to Emirates - reportwww.ch-aviation.com / portal / news / 68349-etihad-to-second-pilots-to-emirates-report

(you'll have to put the URL together, just take out the blanks before & after the slashes; as a relative newbie still, PP won't let me post URLs)

Guess they didnt get enough while in town here, eh?