UK Minister calls for pay increase for servicemen

[Heathrow Harry]

According to the Times today front page headline Tobias Ellwood has called for a pay rise and for defence spending to increase to "north of 2.5% of GDP"

Lets see how long he survives incoming Treasury fire....................

[wokkamate]

2.1% in Sep, backdated to Apr 01. Watch this space.

Better than 1% but still a pay cut in ‘real terms’ as inflation is circa 2.8% currently. Ho hum..... also better than a kick in the teeth

[pr00ne]

What about servicewomen?

[Heathrow Harry]

2.1% in Sep, backdated to Apr 01. Watch this space.

Better than 1% but still a pay cut in ‘real terms’ as inflation is circa 2.8% currently. Ho hum..... also better than a kick in the teeth

I think he was taklking abiut a 3% POAY increase and "an increase to over 2.5% of GDP" in OVERALL Spend - which is around 2.2% of GDP on dodgy figures IIRC

[wokkamate]

3% would be nice! I very much doubt it will ever happen though

[MPN11]

Any murmurs on Pensions? ;)

Mine appears to gone DOWN for some obscure reason, while the Memsahib got her predicted increase!

[golfbananajam]

It would be nice if service pensions went up by a decent amount too

[VinRouge]

3% would be nice! I very much doubt it will ever happen though
Setting your sights too low. We have not had a rise for 8 years. God knows when the next one will be. That's a cumulative real term drop of nearly 25%. Albeit, the recent uplift in uniform tax allowance was very welcome.

Perhaps time we look at no income tax whilst on Ops too and maybe look at the NATO payment to the troops for these ops?

As for pensions, anyone care to explain how Professional Aviator has been so badly screwed up with AFPS 15? Better off on my existing TACOs, with no ROS and no PVR abatement.

[BEagle]

What about servicewomen?

Absolutely NO chance - they'd only want the vote next! :rolleyes:



What do you think, Comrade pr00ne? Of course the pay rise (if any) would apply to the whole range of diversity of today's Armed Forces, including the LGB-GT lot or whatever their latest initialisation might be.

[Danny42C]

UK MINISTER CALLS FOR PAY INCREASES FOR SERVICEMEN

GLENDOWER. I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
HOTSPUR. Why, so can I, or so can any man; but will they come when you do call for them?

(Henry IV, Pt. I)

[MPN11]

<applause>, Danny42C. Impressive recall/research! :D

[Just This Once...]

2.1% in Sep, backdated to Apr 01. Watch this space.

Better than 1% but still a pay cut in ‘real terms’ as inflation is circa 2.8% currently. Ho hum..... also better than a kick in the teeth


It says a lot when the most optimistic figure is yet-another-real-world-cut in pay. How many years in a row has that been the case now?

Still, I just exited so this delayed announcement will clarify how much pension and lump sum I should have been getting. On my first pension payment they included a scrap of paper that noted my pension would be in error but that there was nothing they could do. Pretty poor way to run a pension scheme.

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Thanks - recall, actually, I did "Henry IV, Part I" for my School Cert (82 years ago).
What did I have for breakfast yesterday ? Can't remember !

Danny.

[Melchett01]

It says a lot when the most optimistic figure is yet-another-real-world-cut in pay. How many years in a row has that been the case now?

Still, I just exited so this delayed announcement will clarify how much pension and lump sum I should have been getting. On my first pension payment they included a scrap of paper that noted my pension would be in error but that there was nothing they could do. Pretty poor way to run a pension scheme.

The last time we had a real term increase was 2015 when we had a dip in inflation with RIP coming in at 0.9%, giving us a 0.1% real term rise! Before then, the last real term increase was 2009 when we had a 2.8% rise and with CPI at 2.3% and RPI at -1.2% giving a real terms rise of around 4% because of the low inflation rate, but 2009 was a bit of an anomaly.

Looking over the years 1999 - 2007 when we appeared to do well with 3%+ rises every year apart from 2004, inflation was also relatively high most years meaning that most years were in fact sub-one percent or negative real terms pay deals. The only time other than 2009 that I can see us having had a decent real terms rise was over the period 2001 - 2002 when a 3.7% rise gave a real terms rise of 1.9 and 2.2% respectively. In fact, I can only find 4 years out of the almost 20 I have been in that real terms pay rises have exceeded 1% once inflation is taken into account.

[MPN11]

MPN11,
Thanks - recall, actually, I did "Henry IV, Part I" for my School Cert (82 years ago).
What did I have for breakfast yesterday ? Can't remember !
Danny.
I did the Scottish Play and the Merchant ... the latter probably contains some relevant text for this discussion!!

[Lima Juliet]

Melchy, thank you, that is a great piece of analysis.

Vin Rouge, you will not see much difference in PAS pension amounts in the first 5 years. You need to get into the upper levels over 10 years plus to see any difference. Also, for AFPS15 then as it is Career Averaging then you need to do some 10-15 years time in to make a significant impact. If you’re thinking of going to PAS for 5 years and then legging it, then it isn’t really worth it IMHO.

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

So why did the headline only refer to just under half the population? That's how casual sexism happens, by forgetting a little over half of the population!

[Onceapilot]

Perhaps time we look at no income tax whilst on Ops too and maybe look at the NATO payment to the troops for these ops?
.

Unfortunately, that was done with the Op allowance and, the payment was set at something like the lowest rank / pay possible and their tax. So, it was "screwed" from the start. Doesn't mean that it should not be re-fought though!

OAP

[gijoe]

Unfortunately, that was done with the Op allowance and, the payment was set at something like the lowest rank / pay possible and their tax. So, it was "screwed" from the start. Doesn't mean that it should not be re-fought though!

OAP

Op Allowance is likely to be kicked into touch at the first opportunity as it is divisive and derisive.

[finningleyprince]

Op Allowance is likely to be kicked into touch at the first opportunity as it is divisive and derisive.

Now hold that thought......imagine that disparity in Cyprus, money and medals are explosive(!!) issues. Now imagine an increase to the X factor.....1-2% but no Op allowance. The majority win!

I'm not saying it's right, but when we flew in RAFG there was no Op allowance, and boy were we drilled and ready for that day. There's no abundance of money now, and the engineer and administrators are also part of the whole team.
I'm afraid this subject has been raging where it counts, for months.

[downsizer]

Op Allowance is likely to be kicked into touch at the first opportunity as it is divisive and derisive.


Is it? I've never seen it as such..?

Happy to get it on Herrick, not bothered that I didn't on Shader, Kipion, Ellamy or any other Op I've been on.

[gijoe]

Is it? I've never seen it as such..?

Happy to get it on Herrick, not bothered that I didn't on Shader, Kipion, Ellamy or any other Op I've been on.

An Op is an Op, except when it isn’t like SHADER which is so cocked up that it is comical.

Agree with above re medals - done to death on here. Believe me, there are places getting the medal and op allowance that are far less busier than the techs hut at Akrotiri.

[ORAC]

The Times: Military spending

Defence chiefs will have to fund any salary increases from cuts elsewhere, efficiency savings or deferrals, Stephen Lovegrove, a Ministry of Defence civil servant, told the MPs’ public accounts committee: “There is no indication from the Treasury that we would receive additional funds.” It would be the first pay rise for the forces in eight years.

[Heathrow Harry]

The Times: Military spending

Defence chiefs will have to fund any salary increases from cuts elsewhere, efficiency savings or deferrals, Stephen Lovegrove, a Ministry of Defence civil servant, told the MPs’ public accounts committee: “There is no indication from the Treasury that we would receive additional funds.” It would be the first pay rise for the forces in eight years.
Treasury clearly putting its foot down and telling Jnr Minister where to go.'...'

can this Government do ANYTHING????

[Jumping_Jack]

I'm sure that the 'independent' Pay Review Body has recommended what the Treasury has told them to.......so no issues for the Govt.

[Jabba_TG12]

BEagle,

So why did the headline only refer to just under half the population? That's how casual sexism happens, by forgetting a little over half of the population!

Oh for heavens sake.... *eyeroll*

[ORAC]

This has interesting repercussions. The cost of living is far higher in the south than in the north; equally those posted in the south-east could claim they are entitled to a “London” or southern allowance.....

Daily Telegraph: Pay in the Armed Forces to be Greater in Scotland

The Armed Forces will be paid more for serving in Scotland, the head of personnel has suggested.

Lt. general Richard Nugee said that soldiers, sailors and airmen will have to be compensated for the higher tax burden north of the border. The MoD is “determined to do something to equalise tax” and make the burden as close in Edinburgh as it is in Westminster, he to.d the public accounts committee.

[Melchett01]

I wonder if there’s any substance to a rumour I heard mid-week that it’s now going to be very late in the year before any announcement and speculation that X-factor and increments are being argued about again?

[ACW342]

I was in Lossie ops '75 -'78. With the explosion of the oil industry in Scotland, mostly Aberdeen, and the pay for a married TG9 SAC with two children not going far enough to properly keep my family, the rumoured North of Scotland allowance was eagerly anticipated but it never happened. At the time I was in receipt of FIS (Family Income Supplement) and rent rebate. In order to make ends meet I drove taxis (Aaron & Ross Anderson) occasionally drove Lossie trawler crews in a minibus to/from Ullapool and Lochinver. My Wife cleaned caravans at at Silver Sands caravan camp and worked in Dougies Fish and Chip shop in Hythe Hill. My boss, Sqn. Ldr Jock Urquhart even gave me a chit to permit me to take my unused nightshift rations (Eggs, Bacon, bread cheese and biscuits) home. On one memorable Christmas I had, with much planning bought a load of fish on tick from lossie fish market (80 Stone) and with aid of the lend of a van distributed the fish to the crew of the Brittania from Boscombe, thence into the Bomb bay of a Canberra from, IIRC, Binbrook and a large amount onto a Shack from 8Sqn. which then proceeded to Coningsby where a contact in the tower was waiting to exchange the fish for fresh Lincolnshire vegetables and chicken. These items were pre ordered by families at Lossie. I know that in these enlightened times my story will, I'm sure, appear to some to be just that, a story . However, it is true, and I'm not the only one who had to resort to such measures. Half the Mars Bars in the country were made by airmen from Uxbridge /LATCC Mil working with or without their bosses permission. I don't know how much the guy at Coningsby got for the fish, but after paying for the fish and a few cans for the loan of the van I came out with £34.00. Paid off the catalogue where the childrens presents were purchased and a few tins for me and some thing nice for my wife. It's called survival. Oh and thanks to Jock Urquhart and Paddy Brown, shortly after a much needed posting to Wildenrath, my promotion to Corporal was waiting in Bob Parrots safe in ops. That meant a cross posting to Bruggen where I eventually set the airfield on fire. But that's another story

[Ken Scott]

[QUOTE][

I wonder if there’s any substance to a rumour I heard mid-week that it’s now going to be very late in the year before any announcement and speculation that X-factor and increments are being argued about again?
/QUOTE]

Ever since they started quoting pay statements in the form ‘basic pay + X factor’ I’ve been suggesting that this is a precursor to reducing the latter (fewer operations, more stability of postings etc as the excuse). I raised it with some of the AFPRB a while ago, I was assured that X factor had never been reduced and there was no intention to do so......

[VinRouge]

<div style="text-align:left;">[QUOTE][<br /><br />I wonder if there’s any substance to a rumour I heard mid-week that it’s now going to be very late in the year before any announcement and speculation that X-factor and increments are being argued about again?<br />/QUOTE]<br /><br />Ever since they started quoting pay statements in the form ‘basic pay + X factor’ I’ve been suggesting that this is a precursor to reducing the latter (fewer operations, more stability of postings etc as the excuse). I raised it with some of the AFPRB a while ago, I was assured that X factor had never been reduced and there was no intention to do so......</div>

Well, whatever happens, it will be too late. The current outflow of experience I suspect ,due primarily due to eroded pay, conditions and turning a lifestyle into a job is pretty bad and getting worse.

It's ok though, we are going to pump 20 billion into the NHS to keep geriatrics going a bit longer. Rome continues to burn.

[glad rag]

<div style="text-align:left;">



It's ok though, we are going to pump 20 billion into the NHS to keep geriatrics going a bit longer.

"Official figures showed that 7,552 deaths were registered in Scotland in January, 1,909 more than the same month last year and 2,018 more than the average number of deaths in January over the past five years."

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/health/calls-to-investigate-steep-rise-in-winter-deaths-in-scotland-1-4707126


https://www.scotsman.com/news/health/calls-to-investigate-steep-rise-in-winter-deaths-in-scotland-1-4707126

but it's okay though..

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/what-scotlands-3-nhs-pay-rise-means-for-you/

"Almost 150,000 NHS staff in Scotland are to be given an immediate 3 per cent pay rise, Nicola Sturgeon (http://www.inews.co.uk/tag/nicola-sturgeon) has announced.

Nurses, midwives, therapists, paramedics and administrators earning up to £80,000 will receive the extra money in their pay packets from next month, she told the SNP (http://www.inews.co.uk/tag/snp) conference in Aberdeen."

the SNP have it covered.

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE][

I wonder if there’s any substance to a rumour I heard mid-week that it’s now going to be very late in the year before any announcement and speculation that X-factor and increments are being argued about again?
/QUOTE]

Ever since they started quoting pay statements in the form ‘basic pay + X factor’ I’ve been suggesting that this is a precursor to reducing the latter (fewer operations, more stability of postings etc as the excuse). I raised it with some of the AFPRB a while ago, I was assured that X factor had never been reduced and there was no intention to do so......

Indeed, I can almost see a scenario where under NEM, as you point out, a 5 year posting or maybe flexible working disqualifies you from the full X-factor. In effect, extending FTRS terms to NEM, where the only people qualifying for it being those who are happy to be buggered around by the system just because it can - because that’s the rationale behind the X-factor.

But a word of warning. We are doing more with less. What used to be the thrashing of an deployed ops tempo is now routine day to day business. Strip out X-factor and pay only basic rate, people will walk because they will be able to earn far more at that rate for less hassle. It would also further erode pensions given that X-factor is pensionable.

Current serving personnel will just not tolerate a 14.5% pay cut with all its implications. The only way I can see any sub radical move working was by introducing it under the new joiner offer so only those joining up on new joiner Ts&Cs are affected. But for all our virtue signalling on equality, such a move would seem to be a fairly selective application of equality principles.

[glad rag]

" people will walk because they will be able to earn far more at that rate for less hassle."

Actually I'm quite happy both earning and hassle--less!! :}



As a wise man once said

"life is too short for this ******* crap"

[Training Risky]

[QUOTE=Ken Scott;10174489]

Indeed, I can almost see a scenario where under NEM, as you point out, a 5 year posting or maybe flexible working disqualifies you from the full X-factor. In effect, extending FTRS terms to NEM, where the only people qualifying for it being those who are happy to be buggered around by the system just because it can - because that’s the rationale behind the X-factor.

But a word of warning. We are doing more with less. What used to be the thrashing of an deployed ops tempo is now routine day to day business. Strip out X-factor and pay only basic rate, people will walk because they will be able to earn far more at that rate for less hassle. It would also further erode pensions given that X-factor is pensionable.

Current serving personnel will just not tolerate a 14.5% pay cut with all its implications. The only way I can see any sub radical move working was by introducing it under the new joiner offer so only those joining up on new joiner Ts&Cs are affected. But for all our virtue signalling on equality, such a move would seem to be a fairly selective application of equality principles.

Hi mate - sent you a PM.

[Haraka]

Now being slipped in (and having a greater proportional effect on the lower paid) is the prospect of the basic tax threshold being frozen from 2020 ; i.e.when inflation will probably be admitted to be ramping up again. In effect this will be another stealth tax, again hitting the lower income groups the hardest.

[Onceapilot]

Now being slipped in (and having a greater proportional effect on the lower paid) is the prospect of the basic tax threshold being frozen from 2020 ; i.e.when inflation will probably be admitted to be ramping up again. In effect this will be another stealth tax, again hitting the lower income groups the hardest.

Now TMay has done the ridiculous "Brexit Divi" thing with the NHS and, had to retract her words! There are direct statements from the (Conservative!) Gov "Taxes will rise ". Not looking rosy for Mil pay. :eek:

OAP

[Onceapilot]

Well, it certainly looks as though the signals from No10 are there to see. TMay quoted this week as refusing to confirm UKMil is a "Tier 1" military power. She also confirmed that UK Defence spending would remain at 2% GDP, not 2.??%, just 2%. Seems like it was just last year TMay pledged: " Ms May has announced a Conservative Government will both meet the two per cent target and “increase the defence budget by at least 0.5 per cent above inflation in every year of the new Parliament”.

The pledge matches the promise made by George Osborne in the Budget immediately after the 2015 election - extending it through to 2022."
Quote from The Independent, 2017.
Looks like Defence CUTS to me.

OAP

[pr00ne]

Onceapilot,

After the devastating effects on the UK economy of Brexit are fact as opposed to being brushed under the carpet as "Project Fear," you can guarantee pretty substantial cuts to the defence budget for years to come.

[pr00ne]

JabbaTG12,

"​​​​​​Oh for heavens sake.... *eyeroll*"

So, you would have been happy with a post head line that said "UK Minister calls for pay increase for servicewomen" then?

Totally ignoring the existence of over 50% of the population, casual mysogyny personified.

[Onceapilot]

Certainly, the gross undermanning seems to have caused little concern, almost as if it is (politically) intentional.:oh:

OAP

[Ogre]

Give me £20billion or I'll bring you down: Defence Secretary?s astonishing threat to PM | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5878221/Give-20billion-Ill-bring-Defence-Secretarys-astonishing-threat-PM.html)

[Lima Juliet]

Yes ^^^^^^^^^ if true, this could be very interesting. But also, it could well play into into the hands of Jeremy Goblin and Diane Abacus as well. Let’s face it, someone who tells Russia to “Go away and shut up” may not be the most politically astute!Give me £20billion or I'll bring you down: Defence Secretary’s astonishing threat to Theresa May in bitter row over military cuts

Formidable array of political and military figures are lining up behind Gavin Williamson in his power struggle with No 10
He has warned the PM that if she did not commit an extra £20 billion to the Ministry of Defence then Tory MPs would vote down the next Budget
According to one source, Mr Williamson promised to ‘crush’ the Treasury over the issue

[Wander00]

Tickets available from the best agencies. Not sure Williamson has the clout, but will be fun to watch. IMHO, if May does get tumbled, so will Brexit.......

[VinRouge]

I think Mr Williamson may be a real contender for the leadership. There is something about him that reminds me of Cameron. Lets face it, the cabinet smell blood and all want a piece of the action. I would much prefer someone fresh than troiks like Davis, Boris or Hammond.

[Onceapilot]

I think Mr Williamson may be a real contender for the leadership. There is something about him that reminds me of Cameron. Lets face it, the cabinet smell blood and all want a piece of the action. I would much prefer someone fresh than troiks like Davis, Boris or Hammond.
or,....Gove!

OAP

[Melchett01]

MOD CS pay award to be announced ... this could be interesting.

Hearing rumours from well placed sources that the CS element of Defence will be getting an offer between 1-1.5%, with a reminder that anything above 1% means money coming from elsewhere. The offer will of course be subject to Union agreement.

And given the other sectors have been getting full inflationary rises or more, I don’t see the Unions being in a hurry to write thank you notes given the pressure we’re under, the years of pay restraint and the current 2.4% rate of inflation.

It will also make giving the military any more much harder if they want to play the ‘whole force card’, which they have been doing a lot in recent times.

I think its going to be an interesting summer for Defence funding if this turns out to be correct.

[finningleyprince]

MOD CS pay award to be announced ... this could be interesting.

Hearing rumours from well placed sources that the CS element of Defence will be getting an offer between 1-1.5%, with a reminder that anything above 1% means money coming from elsewhere. The offer will of course be subject to Union agreement.

And given the other sectors have been getting full inflationary rises or more, I don’t see the Unions being in a hurry to write thank you notes given the pressure we’re under, the years of pay restraint and the current 2.4% rate of inflation.

It will also make giving the military any more much harder if they want to play the ‘whole force card’, which they have been doing a lot in recent times.

I think its going to be an interesting summer for Defence funding if this turns out to be correct.



world wide web.'theguardian com/politics/2018/jun/26/no 10 intervenes in row over armed forces pay rise'. Add hyphens

[Wander00]

Hmm, funny how this particular pay issue never makes it on to BBC News. I guess it is because there is no organisation that can
make the case on Services' pay (The AFPRB is in my view the Government's poodle). At least the FPS does its best on pensions

[Just This Once...]

AFPRB is independent from the MoD; it is not independent of government.

The case for service pay used to be laid-out by the service chiefs. The Treasury effectively neutered them years ago by awarding the funding for the coming year many months before the ARPRB produced its findings. If the AFPRB recommendation is ever above the Treasury prediction/cap/limit (aka Comprehensive Spending Review) then the missing balance has to be found from the MoDs existing budget - effectively triggering further unplanned cuts. The net effect is that the service chiefs are rather reluctant to support any pay rise that could be above the amount already stipulated by the Treasury Spending Review.

As such, the scales are tipped away from any effective pay rise. The only variation is the AFPRB excuse-of-the-year to magically arrive at the same figure stipulated by the government before the pay review board even starts. The only possible change is when politicians feel the need to increase military pay. Amazingly the AFPRB will somehow arrive at this exact same politically driven percentage. About the only exception to this was the X-factor increase a few years back that neither the Treasury or MoD were expecting. The bun-fight lasted well into the new financial year and the then Chair of the AFPRB lost his seat.

[VinRouge]

That is, unless you don't listen to your lords and masters, recommend a decent pay rise and then as the head of the AFPRB get ''resigned".

As happened a few years back.

[Melchett01]

Well if The Gruaniad is correct and No10 has waded in, our pay is now political and about SoS’ ambitions for the future as anything else. Melchies’ potential COAs for what they’re worth:

1. SoS digs in hard and we all get 3% this year. Following years we get 1% if lucky for several years as punishment, potentially the remainder of this Parliament. Importantly whilst SoS has bought some brownie points with the troops and a few pro- Forces back benchers but his wider reputation is shot and he lacks support for a future bid.

2. SoS compromises and a few lower paid ranks or pinch points get 3% whilst the rest get 1-1.5%. Another sub-inflationary rise irritates the troops but he has maybe preserved some equity in the party and portrays himself as the Squaddies’ Champion by boosting pay for the lowest ranks. Future rises limited but not to the same extent as in COA 1.

3. SoS plays the long game, both for his political ambitions and future pay, and we all get 1.5 - 2%. Although sub-inflationary he claims credit for lifting the 1% pay cap and buys a lot of brownie points for sticking up for Defence whilst also showing himself to be a team player and banks support for a future leadership challenge.

My money is on COA 3. He is a politician after all.

[Onceapilot]

Well if The Gruaniad is correct and No10 has waded in, our pay is now political and about SoS’ ambitions for the future as anything else. Melchies’ potential COAs for what they’re worth:


3. SoS plays the long game, both for his political ambitions and future pay, and we all get 1.5 - 2%. Although sub-inflationary he claims credit for lifting the 1% pay cap and buys a lot of brownie points for sticking up for Defence whilst also showing himself to be a team player and banks support for a future leadership challenge.

My money is on COA 3. He is a politician after all.


I suspect your 3 as well. TMay has proved herself to be a fudger's fudger. I also suspect she will do the same with the overall Defence spend. There will be no serious chopping or rationalisation of capabilities to match requirements budget, just 2% GDP spend continued and SoS for Defence told to make it all work with trimming at the edges (despite this being to the detriment of all!). I will be very surprised if the overall results of the pay review and the Defence review are anything more than......a fudge!

OAP

[skydiver69]

I suspect your 3 as well. TMay has proved herself to be a fudger's fudger. I also suspect she will do the same with the overall Defence spend. There will be no serious chopping or rationalisation of capabilities to match requirements budget, just 2% GDP spend continued and SoS for Defence told to make it all work with trimming at the edges (despite this being to the detriment of all!). I will be very surprised if the overall results of the pay review and the Defence review are anything more than......a fudge!

OAP
That is exactly what has happened with the police. Last years 2% pay rise turned out to be 1% funded by HMG and a 1% bonus funded from current police force reserves and which was unconsolidated i.e. doesn't contribute to pensions or overtime. In addition all the 'new' money for firearms capability was top sliced from existing budgets so there was no new money despite HMG claiming that they had increased funding. That has happened across the board with numerous government pet projects being funded from existing budgets but with the government claiming to have provided extra investment. The government's highly publicised inflation busting pay rises for NHS staff was also a case of smoke and mirrors. IIRC they claimed that some staff would get up to a 9% rise over three years, but this wasn't all made up of the governments pay rise as a lot of that increase would have happened anyway through staff moving up pay bands and getting existing increments. The point I am making is that the government will probably try to claim some sort of generous pay rise or increased funding for the forces but you will have to look at the detail to see how much they will claw back or what tactics they will use to minimise the actual rise whilst maximising the kudos they will get from their apparent generosity.

[Lima Juliet]

There are those that say that they get a rise then it is taken off with Quarter charges. Surely, moving out to your own home is the way to beat that? Even if you rent your house for what you pay for the Quarter, as long as you are on a repayment mortgage, you are still winning as the value of your property goes up?

[Melchett01]

There are those that say that they get a rise then it is taken off with Quarter charges. Surely, moving out to your own home is the way to beat that? Even if you rent your house for what you pay for the Quarter, as long as you are on a repayment mortgage, you are still winning as the value of your property goes up?

LJ, technically yes, but it all depends if you buy a house just to get a foot on the ladder or because you want a home. I have my own home as by the start of my third tour I’d got fed up of living in the Mess, and now I wouldn’t voluntarily live on base if I can manage it. It does often mean weekly commuting and paying accommodation charges, but knowing I have my own space to retreat to at the end of the week where I live by my rules in far more comfort than the Mess and can have family and friends over is really important to me and I suspect many others.

[downsizer]

Recent FoI says that the report has been with the government since march.

[Lima Juliet]

Meichy, me too :ok:

[Ken Scott]

Recent FoI says that the report has been with the government since march.

Maybe they’re just waiting for a ‘good’ day to bury the bad news?

[Jabba_TG12]

JabbaTG12,

"​​​​​​Oh for heavens sake.... *eyeroll*"

So, you would have been happy with a post head line that said "UK Minister calls for pay increase for servicewomen" then?

Totally ignoring the existence of over 50% of the population, casual mysogyny personified.

Whatever. If thats where your priorities lie, if thats what floats your boat, then get on with it. Frankly, such divisive and unwarranted SJW-style victim projection bores me beyond measure and often makes me retch. But, if in your little world, it makes sense to you and makes you feel good about yourself, you carry on.

For what its worth, I would have used the term "Service Personnel" because of it has always struck me as an appropriate term to use. But am I going to criticize someone for using servicemen or servicewomen instead? No. My life is not that sad, empty, boring and meaningless that I have to project my SJW inadequacies and political prejudices onto someone elses words when it is plainly obvious what it is referring to in the first place.

Back to the Grauniad for you, mate. I'm sure Owen Jones or Polly T or some other such "commentator" has something that appeals to your perspective within its erstwhile pages...

[gr4techie]

There are those that say that they get a rise then it is taken off with Quarter charges. Surely, moving out to your own home is the way to beat that? Even if you rent your house for what you pay for the Quarter, as long as you are on a repayment mortgage, you are still winning as the value of your property goes up?

The problem is when you're posted to Benson or Odiham, then the properties are ridiculous London prices.

The value of your property going up, is irrelevant if you can't find a buyer.

A quick search found the average price paid in Odiham was £525,015.

[Jumping_Jack]

Some people like to actually live with their spouse rather than see them for a day and a half a week. There is no way I could afford anything anywhere near here and it would mean selling up and moving every couple of years. We don't all have the luxury of spending an entire career at one base like many aircrew do.

[Melchett01]

Latest rumour doing the rounds is that the pay announcement is being held up whilst highly contentious / controversial issues are argued out. Racking my tiny brain cell, does this mean further presssure on increments - or even pensions contributions? Surely not? Surely that would be politically far too difficult given the recent climate. Although, in all the recent public arguments, I don’t recall hearing anything about more cash for Defence to support personnel, once again it was all about equipment budgets being unaffordable. I think that 3% figure doing the rounds recently is looking less and less likely.

[alfred_the_great]

MoD CS were today told that their rises were to be between 1 - 1.5%, and that the MoD had only budgeted for 1%, with any extra coming from elsewhere in the budget.

[bunta130]

Frankly, I think you will have to deal with another below-inflation 'rise'........effectively the nth pay reduction in a row. I feel for you all.....having departed last year.

It will be interesting to see if there is any further effect on retention - I suspect not, as better the devil you know, plus lock-ins..... Until the Leadership sees material change and suffers consequences, it is unlikely to engage beyond hand-wringing....

[VinRouge]

Frankly, I think you will have to deal with another below-inflation 'rise'........effectively the nth pay reduction in a row. I feel for you all.....having departed last year.

It will be interesting to see if there is any further effect on retention - I suspect not, as better the devil you know, plus lock-ins..... Until the Leadership sees material change and suffers consequences, it is unlikely to engage beyond hand-wringing....

I think military aircrew outflow, particularly of the experienced sort who fall between the 70k flying pay FRI and not having accrued enough to warrant sticking around for PA, is about to go into turbo mode.

​​​​​Airline pay rise last 10 years has averaged 25% for those able to go in as SFO or even DEC. I find it all rather upsetting, alas, many will realise the only true loyalty worth working hard for is now your own family.

At a time they are about to pi$$ even more cash down the toilet on the NHS, I don't see how this will be recoverable for the forces. We will be reduced to a second rate air force whose primary role for The nation will be flying in medical supplies due the screw up that is BREXIT.

[bunta130]

Vin

Frankly I find it as upsetting as you......and consider the current constraints no way to treat loyal public servants, particularly after politicians received a 'galling' pay rise on the recommendation of a truly unfettered independent review body. Nevertheless, it is what it is.......

I agree with your point on family, and accept the figures you quote for airline pay; however, I am unconvinced that outflow from the Forces will increase at an alarming enough rate for those in power to be galvanised into meaningful activity (it would have to endanger capability sufficiently for those at the top to look bad/ineffective). A ballsy move might be to refuse/reduce equipment upgrades in order to remunerate the Forces' most important asset (yes, that 'tired old soundbite').....however, not sure if that would be possible even if we had leaders with such cojones.

It is dispiriting in every respect.......and why the AFPRB actually bother is beyond me - pointless activity and a waste of resources in both its research and the follow-up station visits

[Jumping_Jack]

Spot on Bunta. Motto for the modern Armed Forces 'Administrandi declines'

[wokkamate]

2.5-3% is still the firm favourite MOD Main rumour, however a compensatory measure in pensions is also being rumoured. Perhaps that is the ‘contenscious issue’ that was mentioned above.....

[Melchett01]

2.5-3% is still the firm favourite MOD Main rumour, however a compensatory measure in pensions is also being rumoured. Perhaps that is the ‘contenscious issue’ that was mentioned above.....

Any pensions tinkering would be the final straw for many, and would lose leadership any credibility they have left given that AFPS 15 was a generational solution. I’m guessing from talking to people and hearing all the grumbling there’s the potential for double digit percentage resignations across the Forces if that happened, not a single ounce of goodwill remains between personnel and the MOD these days And that would be suicide for any ambition SoS might have.

[downsizer]

2.5-3% is still the firm favourite MOD Main rumour, however a compensatory measure in pensions is also being rumoured. Perhaps that is the ‘contenscious issue’ that was mentioned above.....

One hopes they don't further **** with pensions.

I'd bet that if they have to claw back money it will be on X factor, Op All, CEA, etc, etc....

[Lima Juliet]

however a compensatory measure in pensions is also being rumoured

The AFPRB do not do pension changes, so this has to be a bogus rumour. Armed Forces Pension Schemes are enshrined in UK Law and so changing pensions is a VERY big job (hence they do them sparingly 1975, 2005 and 2015 being the last 3). I had heard that they were looking at allowing personnel to bring forward their AFPS15 Early Departure Payment at the 20/40 point if they stayed in - again, this would need a significant change to the Scheme unless the measure is an interest free loan against the Pension Scheme? That would be about the only thing that the AFPRB could recommend in the report.

[Melchett01]

The AFPRB do not do pension changes, so this has to be a bogus rumour. Armed Forces Pension Schemes are enshrined in UK Law and so changing pensions is a VERY big job (hence they do them sparingly 1975, 2005 and 2015 being the last 3). I had heard that they were looking at allowing personnel to bring forward their AFPS15 Early Departure Payment at the 20/40 point if they stayed in - again, this would need a significant change to the Scheme unless the measure is an interest free loan against the Pension Scheme? That would be about the only thing that the AFPRB could recommend in the report.

LJ, you’re probably right about pensions not being in the report (I’ll only say probably as there’s no telling what this lot will do!), but for my money that can then only mean any other contentious issue would be something along the lines of increments, allowances or specialist pay.

[Just This Once...]

LJ, I agree that at a pension change is unlikely, especially with the post-2015 pension board and whilst it is true that our pensions are set out in law in reality they can be changed with precious little legal effort. It would be marvellous if the scheme laws received normal parliamentary scrutiny but they bypass this process and are just signed-off by the minister under a Statutory Instrument.

[Ken Scott]

Hard to see how pensions could be made contributory as pay is already abated by approximately 8% to allow for the ‘non-contribution’. There would need to be an adjusting pay rise first before contributions could be deducted.

[Harley Quinn]

Hard to see how pensions could be made contributory as pay is already abated by approximately 8% to allow for the ‘non-contribution’. There would need to be an adjusting pay rise first before contributions could be deducted.
I think that little factor has been missed out of AFPRB reports for some years, thus it is seen as non-contributory by the treasury

[Onceapilot]

I think that little factor has been missed out of AFPRB reports for some years, thus it is seen as non-contributory by the treasury
Not quite. IMO, this is straight forward deceit by the MOD. MOD operate the "Armed Forces pension scheme" as a simple drain upon Defence spending from UKGov resources with no capital or payments from members. Therefore, the Treasury see no "Pension fund or contributions" and classify the scheme as non-contributory, despite the abatement of pay. This sleight of hand has many consequences. :mad:

OAP

[Just This Once...]

The % abatement (4%) is quoted in recent reports, including the major pension review in the 2013 AFPRB report and the in the last (published) report.

d Armed Forces pay adjusted for X-Factor (/1.14) and for pensions (x1.04) [2013 Report]

15 As for our yearly ASHE comparisons, this also uses Armed Forces’ pay adjusted down to exclude X-Factor and up to reflect the comparative value of Armed Forces’ pensions. [2017 Report]

Since 2015 the MoD has come into line with normal pension fund management, including a regulated pension board. The whole contacted out/in and NI contributions also changed after engagement with HMT; as did the whole lifetime allowance fiasco which will continue to bite more and more. That said, the Treasury is not completely tone-deaf when it comes to service pensions, especially for those injured on active duty - as a concession HMT wavies all tax on service-attributal pensions.

[Onceapilot]

That said, the Treasury is not completely tone-deaf when it comes to service pensions, especially for those injured on active duty - as a concession HMT wavies all tax on service-attributal pensions.

Have you reflected upon the relative value of a war-pension Vs a civilian injury payment? :oh:

OAP

[Just This Once...]

Fair point.

[Onceapilot]

Fair point.
Agreed. The low value of the war-pension awards is despicable.

OAP