KLM Pilot jailed in Norway for alcohol intake on night stop

[TowerDog]

Deemed a flight risk (!) he was sentenced to 2 weeks in the slammer.
Results of the blood sample not official yet.
Link to Norwegian news blurb:

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/bKb6Ml/promillesiktet-klm-pilot-fengslet-i-to-uker

[auroraborealis90]

Deemed a flight risk (!) he was sentenced to 2 weeks in the slammer.
Results of the blood sample not official yet.
He was not sentenced to anything. He is being jailed awaiting trial.

[auroraborealis90]

Also the news article while not saying exactly how much over the limit he was, they say it was low, meaning he most likely wasnt "impaired" and the only reason he got caught was due to the random testing.

[TowerDog]

He was not sentenced to anything. He is being jailed awaiting trial.

Sentence:
the punishment assigned to a defendant found guilty by a court, or fixed by law for a particular offense.
"her husband is serving a three-year sentence for fraud"synonyms:judgment, ruling, decision, verdict, punishment More
Whatever you want to call it, somebody made a decision to put him in a jail cell.

[Joe le Taxi]

'Remanded in custody' is the term you're looking for.

[Heathrow Harry]

Pretty standard if you are caught driving over the limit (which is VERY low) in Norway - you can be put in jail , you lose your licence instantly and THEN they have a trial

You're guilty - its only the final sentence they delay

Also random road blocks are not uncommon in the morning to test people on their way to work after a hard night before......

I was always told you were running a risk after about 1/4 pint or 200 ml of beer......................

[tescoapp]

I could never understand why you would want to drink in Norway anyway.

it's extremely well known how low the limit is. It's extremely expensive. And the single beer I have had there was pretty horrible and the local that bought me it said it was their best brew.

​​​​​​Surely every pilot must know that if they have a single beer and they are known to be a pilot they will be reported by the bar staff.

A norgie to i used to fly with who was into body building told me that he would be over the limit if he went to the gym before work due anaerobic respiration, how true that is I don't have a clue.

[clareprop]

KLM Pilot jailed in Norway for alcohol intake on night stop

Latest news: 2699 KLM pilots not jailed for alcohol intake.

[tescoapp]

Basically less than a breathaliser can measure which is why it takes so long for them to process you. The test they have to use to get a reading off your b!ood takes 3 days it's works by evaporation I think.

The limit according to the fo is basically just enough to cover the normal range of alcohol produced naturally in your body during normal living. If you hammer the gym anaerobic muscle burning exercises you can get over the limit naturally. Apparently if you do that you get a monitored training session and if you can't match or beat your level your in deep poo. But it takes weeks to sort out and your remanded for that period if your a pilot.

The normal way to get into trouble is by bar staff reporting you. Then as seems to have happened here they arrest and then test which takes 3 days. If the person say had one small glass of very expensive crap wine with a meal at say 7pm at night gets reported and reports at 7pm the next day they will be down to normal. But you will still get arrested because the bar staff have reported you.

So the limit is basically zero. Get spotted drinking something with alcohol and you will get processed and it will take time.

[Chris2303]

Also random road blocks are not uncommon in the morning to test people on their way to work after a hard night before.......

Same in NZ

[Heathrow Harry]

" I could never understand why you would want to drink in Norway anyway. "

Wellllll.. those long dark nights .... but the cost is horrendous and if you DO drink make sure you allow enough time to get under the limit

I always found car hire firms were more than happy to deliver you car the next day in town for example than risk things if you had a beverage on the incoming flight

Norwegians do designated driver all the time

[Hotel Tango]

As I have said before, there is a world of difference between being over a very strict limit and being impaired. Of course I'm not party to the results in this particular case, but I would be very surprised if the crew member involved was anywhere remotely close to being impaired.

[tescoapp]

Enjoy your time in the clink then.

It's the social norm to report, you can try taking legal action if you like.....As for changing hotel... If the company is paying for it They will know. I suppose you could book your self and pay for it yourself change out of uniform before you arrive and leave in civi clothes and not mention what you do.

I don't drink down route anyway. Their country, their rules, same as Saudi. Nicer jails I suspect but I really don't fancy trying to prove a point. Even if it turns out after 3 days I was legal to fly.

[Heathrow Harry]

Impaired? maybe not

Illegal?? almost certainly

That's the problem withe Feds wherever you are - they have this habit of enforcing the law................

[Capn Bloggs]

Norway. No Way. Thanks for the tip.

[flyburg]

So, in Norway, don’t drink on overnights and don’t work out! Check!!

[tescoapp]

By the look of the fo and the workouts he used to do I think a normal person going to the gym doing an hour on the cardio machines is not going to be an issue. It's the muscle burning body building stuff for hours going from stupid weights down to struggling to lift a bag of sugar at the end of it that will do it.

. From the look of him after one of those workouts he wasn't fit to fly anyway his coordination was shot to hell and he had the strength of a stick of celery and struggled walking in a straight line. He did those strong man competitions lifting boulders flipping tyres etc.

[sleeper]

According the police spokesperson in the news article, "it was low but over the limit". Translation google.

​​​Given that that limit in Norway is very low, any report of "drunk pilot" or 'innebriated pilot" is ludicrous. Was he illegal? According their rules, yes. Lets just wait with the judgements until their judge rules.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm astonished he didn't know the rules and risks - it's the second thing anyone tells you about the place

the first thing is the COST of a drink....................

[sleeper]

Undoubtably he knows the risk. KLM is very clear and active on alcohol rules to their crews.

[A and C]

There is a great deal of paranoia here, my advice would be to not have a drink within 12 hours of flying and then only drink in moderation......... but that advice is general and not for Norway in particular.

[TowerDog]

. Given that that limit in Norway is very low, any report of "drunk pilot" or 'innebriated pilot" is ludicrous.

No such report, not on this thread anyways, or in the newspaper article.

[tescoapp]

I suspect he will be well inside company rules and limits. If I hadn't had a few sectors with the world's strongest FO I wouldn't have known it was so low.

Car limit is 0.02% in Norway , Scotland is 0.05 and England and Wales 0.08%

UK is 0.02% for flying. I believe Norway is lower but don't know how much lower.

[sleeper]

No such report, not on this thread anyways, or in the newspaper article.

True in this case, for now. There is only the norwegian newspaper report which is pretty factual. But I fear the follow ups from less factual newsmedia.

[tescoapp]

Section 6-11 Abuse of medication etc

No person may perform duties on board an aircraft when under the influence of alcohol (not

sober) or other intoxicating or narcotic substance or if they are unfit to perform their duties in

a satisfactory manner as a result of sickness, medication, fatigue or other similar cause. The

prohibition extends to consumption of alcohol within 8 hours prior to the initiation of said

duties. Persons serving on an aircraft may not have a blood alcohol concentration in excess of 0.02 percent. Misjudgement regarding the strength of the alcohol concentration shall not exempt a person from punishment.

A person who has performed duties on an aircraft must not drink alcohol or take any other intoxicating or narcotic substance during the first six hours after such duty, if he understands or ought to understand that a police investigation may be initiated concerning his behaviour on duty. This prohibition shall not apply once the police have allowed a doctor to take blood samples or

have decided that blood samples shall not be taken

.

If there is reason to believe that a person has violated the provisions of the first or second

paragraph, the police may present him for examination by a doctor, who may take blood samples. The relevant ministry will issue further rules concerning medical examinations and all matters related thereto

[Sailvi767]

I suspect he will be well inside company rules and limits. If I hadn't had a few sectors with the world's strongest FO I wouldn't have known it was so low.

Car limit is 0.02% in Norway , Scotland is 0.05 and England and Wales 0.08%

UK is 0.02% for flying. I believe Norway is lower but don't know how much lower.

About the only thing lower than .02 is .01!

[RAT 5]

A person who has performed duties on an aircraft must not drink alcohol or take any other intoxicating or narcotic substance during the first six hours after such duty, if he understands or ought to understand that a police investigation may be initiated concerning his behaviour on duty.

So you've come off a long day, have minimum rest and would like a couple of sherbets to help the transition from On duty to Off duty and then into sleep. This could even be the first day of a block of days off. Are they really saying that your OFF duty time only starts 6 hours after you've signed off? I wonder what other professions in Norway are subject to these draconian measures.

[Heathrow Harry]

. (http://static.conocophillips.com/files/resources/drug-alcohol-policy-rev-27-october-2015-english.pdf)
http://static.conocophillips.com/files/resources/drug-alcohol-policy-rev-27-october-2015-english.pdf

has the same limits AS A PASSENGER for offshore operations.- and in the office as well.......................... you are reported and over 0.02 its disciplinary action wherever you are
The employee will be asked to leave the workplace, course, meeting, etc., and be refused departure to offshore.
His/her manager and the company health service must be informed.
The manager and the HR Department should urgently meet with the employee,where he or she will have the opportunity to explain themselves.
Minutes must be written and signed.
The employee may have an elected union representative or other representative present.
The Company health service may ask to take more samples where applicable.
Company's procedures for disciplinary action mustbe followed, and appropriate disciplinary action will be taken (see Item 9 of the Working Regulations).
If an offshore employee submits a sample showing a blood alcohol level below20/mg/100ml, the employee may report for departure the following day.
The table below describes the procedure depending on the blood alcohol concentration.................

Most companies are the same - of course they have a real drink issue in Norway - not as bad as Russia but still..............

[Old King Coal]

A couple of simple rules to go by when imbibing down-route:

Never ever drink booze in the hotel in which you are staying.
If anybody (e.g. bar staff) ask "what's your name and who do you work for?", you should lie and use a false name too, e.g.maybe tell them that you're a porno stud called Dirk Diggler, just do NOT tell them the truth.

Cheers.

[Ancient Mariner]

And you guys are pilots? How difficult us it to follow rules and regulations? And what's about all this conspiracy theories regarding alcohol blood levels?
If you don' like our beer, our prices, our laws and how we enforce them, please feel free to stay away.
We won't miss you.
Per

[tescoapp]

I will just avoid the booze and the rotten fish products. Your laws and how you apply them I have zero issues with.

​​​​​​

[Heathrow Harry]

And you guys are pilots? How difficult us it to follow rules and regulations? And what's about all this conspiracy theories regarding alcohol blood levels?
If you don' like our beer, our prices, our laws and how we enforce them, please feel free to stay away.
We won't miss you.
Per

I agree - when in Rome etc etc. It's your country and you can have whatever laws you like - and it's a visitors job to make sure they know the rules.

The Norwegian rules look pretty draconian but then they were developed because of social issues within the country

[TowerDog]

I will just avoid the booze and the rotten fish products. Your laws and how you apply them I have zero issues with.

​​​​​​

A bit of thread creep perhaps, but I have never had rotten fish products over there, enjoyed the finest fresh fish and sea food instead as well as the best beer on the planet. I should know, I was born and raised in Norway. (Also had zero issues with the flying and driving alcohol limits, but a bit of luck surely helps. Old Chinese Proverb: Better be lucky than good:))

[tescoapp]

I was in the North and it was some sort of salad thing with cured fish. Norgie fresh fish is much the same as fresh from the pier in shetland.

I was assured the beer and salad was a local speciality I presume both we're an acquired taste. Osl to be honest I have never eaten apart from breakfast or bought beer. I always take food with me if required and the water from the tap is very good.

​​​​​​

[TowerDog]

I was in the North and it was some sort of salad thing with cured fish. Norgie fresh fish is much the same as fresh from the pier in shetland.

I was assured the beer and salad was a local speciality I presume both we're an acquired taste. Osl to be honest I have never eaten apart from breakfast or bought beer. I always take food with me if required and the water from the tap is very good.

​​​​​​

Can’t comment on the local speciality in Northern Norway, but cured fish, to the best of my knowledge, can not be classified as rotten, just like cured bacon is not rotten either: They would both stink like hell and not fit to serve.
Never carried food from one country to another, somehow the agriculture departments frown on it and hard to keep it fresh in a warm suitcase, unless of course you enjoy dry biscuits or soggy salads on your night stops?
Bon Appetit.

[Herod]

We might be getting our Scandinavians mixed up here. Proper rotten fish is a speciality in northern Sweden, along the Baltic coast. Apparently, they bury it in the sand for some considerable time. I'm told reliably that it stinks to high heaven, and is very much an acquired taste.

[semmern]

We might be getting our Scandinavians mixed up here. Proper rotten fish is a speciality in northern Sweden, along the Baltic coast. Apparently, they bury it in the sand for some considerable time. I'm told reliably that it stinks to high heaven, and is very much an acquired taste.

Also illegal to bring on planes due to the risk of the tin exploding... :)


The Norwegian rules look pretty draconian but then they were developed because of social issues within the country

As for that, all I can say is «what?»

[Loose rivets]

Just a quick reminder. Zolpidem, sold in America as Ambien is very, very dangerous.

Read Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep for details. They are erm, mind-boggling. The somewhat expensive tome is beyond jaw-dropping.

Tiredness kills more people in road traffic accidents than all the alcohol and drug related accidents put together. The research is based on 30 years of top university studies.

The preoccupation with minute quantities of alcohol, while pilots are burdened with sleep issues, and the chemistry used to counter it, is nothing short of bizarre.

Just to be going on with: https://drugabuse.com/5-scary-effects-of-ambien/

[Hotel Tango]

The preoccupation with minute quantities of alcohol, while pilots are burdened with sleep issues, and the chemistry used to counter it, is nothing short of bizarre.

I was thinking exactly the same earlier on. But how do you measure fatigue?

[EEngr]

Jailed pending a trial is pretty harsh. Of course I can't speak for Norway, but it's usually reserved for suspects that pose a flight risk (Not that kind of flight. The fleeing kind.)

In my part of the world, it's done for some dumb redneck driver who is likely just going to jump back in his car after booking at the police station. But an administrative order of some sort to hand over one's pilots license and a word to the employer should pretty much keep one grounded. I would hope.

[TowerDog]

. Jailed pending a trial is pretty harsh. Of course I can't speak for Norway, but it's usually reserved for suspects that pose a flight risk (Not that kind of flight. The fleeing kind.)


In Norway a suspect goes to custody for max 3 days awaiting trial, anything after that one have to be sentenced by a judge/court and in this case the poor KLM pilot was deemed a flight risk if let loos, so he got 2 weeks behind bars just to make sure he would stay and await trial.
Not sure the above is draconian, he did not get caned or stoned, just got caught with his pants down.
(Note to self: Don’t drink and drive/fly in Norway. If you do, don’t get caught)

[Capn Bloggs]

Section 6-11 Abuse of medication etc
Is this a Norway regulation?

[tescoapp]

Well all I could find. It was taken from a Norway government site but with the rider that it is for information only translation and the legal document is the original Act in local lingo.

Aviation Act 2012.

[KelvinD]

Playing catch up no doubt, the BBC just featured this in the 09:00 (BST) news on Radio 4! No comments or speculation, merely the bald facts.

[matsemann]

Anybody who believes that 0.02% is some strict Norwegian rule might be in for a surprise. 0.02% or 20mg/100ml is a EASA regulation. It is also the driving limit in several European countries, not just Norway.

If Heathrow Harry thinks that these laws are because of social issues within the country of Norway, he has clearly lost it. UK is probably the Western European country with most social issues.

[Heathrow Harry]

Anybody who believes that 0.02% is some strict Norwegian rule might be in for a surprise. 0.02% or 20mg/100ml is a EASA regulation. It is also the driving limit in several European countries, not just Norway.

If Heathrow Harry thinks that these laws are because of social issues within the country of Norway, he has clearly lost it. UK is probably the Western European country with most social issues.


true but in Norway they ENFORCE them .......... big time

It's not me that thinks they have a social problem with drinking - ask any Norwegian or Google it - as one recent study said "it's not that we in Norway drink a lot more than other countries - it's the way we drink that causes a lot of problems..." Hence the Vinmonopolet monopoly, the restriction on hours, what you can buy in grocery store...............

It's not as tough as it was 40 years ago but they still think they have a problem see

https://www.lundbeck.com/upload/no/files/pdf/Alcohol%20in%20Norway%20-%20Use%20Consequences%20and%20Costs%202013_FINAL.pdf

[Radgirl]

So it seems Norway has a legal limit of 0.02% and from the above an 8 hour limit for drinking before duty. If that is the case, can anyone explain why they are arresting pilots? We have the ability to measure for 0.02% at the airport. If they dont, why not? If they do and it is over 0.02% then fair enough. On that basis, Norway seems like most other countries. Bar staff telling tales is irrelevant - you simply test.

[TowerDog]

It's not as tough as it was 40 years ago but they still think they have a problem see

From the link you posted:

De aller fleste nordmenn konsumerer alkohol på en ikke-skadelig måte, men for noen er alkohol et problem.

Rough translation: The vast majority of Norwegians consume alcohol in a non- destructive way, but for some, alcohol is a problem.

Based on the above it looks like most any other country.

The WHO concludes that Norway is Nr. 65 on a list alcohol consumption.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

[LeadSled]

Anybody who believes that 0.02% is some strict Norwegian rule might be in for a surprise. 0.02% or 20mg/100ml is a EASA regulation. It is also the driving limit in several European countries, not just Norway.

If Heathrow Harry thinks that these laws are because of social issues within the country of Norway, he has clearly lost it. UK is probably the Western European country with most social issues.

Folks,
Probably the reason why 0.02 is the effective legislative level for "zero" (and certainly the reason in Australia, for aviation and and many other occupations) is that 0.02 is the minimum that can be tested by the common screening tests, anything lower requires quite difficult hospital based testing, which would be completely impractical in the field.
Norway's practices seem rather harsh to me. I wonder what the perceived need is, compared to the fairly common limit of 0.02.
Tootle pip!!

[ManaAdaSystem]

0.02 is the limit in Europe. I have been tested in Norway, Sweden and Holland.
You fail the test, you will be asked to rinse your mouth and test again. Fail again, you go to the office for a blood sample.
You will not be over the limit if you drink two pints 8 hours before duty. It takes more than that.

This is turning into a Norway bashing exercise. Are you saying if you get tested in the UK and the initial result is 0.04, they will pat you on your shoulder and send you on your way?
Nope, they will do the same as in this case.

The test results will be out soon.

[Max Angle]

According to our company info the rule in the Norway is that you have to be at the 0.02 limit 8 hours before your duty starts which is a rather
different regulation to the other countries.

[SMT Member]

Their country, their rules. Have a problem with that, stay clear. If you can't get by without consuming alcohol 8 hours before duty, it is perhaps worth considering your choice of occupation.

[Capn Bloggs]

This is turning into a Norway bashing exercise. Are you saying if you get tested in the UK and the initial result is 0.04, they will pat you on your shoulder and send you on your way?
Nope, they will do the same as in this case.
What, incarcerate the pilot for 14 days?

According to our company info the rule in the Norway is that you have to be at the 0.02 limit 8 hours before your duty starts which is a rather different regulation to the other countries.
That puts a different slant on it. Matesmann, care to comment?

[M609]

According to our company info the rule in the Norway is that you have to be at the 0.02 limit 8 hours before your duty starts which is a rather different regulation to the other countries.
That puts a different slant on it. Matesmann, care to comment?

That is BS.

The LAW, as in "Lov om luftfart", translation: The Aviation Law §6-11 and 6-12 outlines the limits in Norway. It includes ban on medications that adversely affect you as well as fatigue/unfit to fly.

The limits regarding alcohol in 6-11 are simple, plain and completely void of any interpretation:

You are under the influence when you:
-Have a blood alcohol level of 0.02 or an amount of alcohol in your body that will cause that level, or
-A concentration of alcohol in your exhaled breath of 0.1mg pr liter air.


6-12 goes on to define that you cannot use substances (basically the ones already covered in 6-11) in the 8 hrs before duty. The ban also extends to 6 hrs after duty if you are aware of the possibility of an police investigation regarding the duty performed by the pilot.
The crew chapter of the law (Norwegian) (https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/1993-06-11-101/KAPITTEL_2-5#KAPITTEL_2-5)

Drunk driving and drunk flying is punished by (among other things) prison in Norway, because of the damage potential.

The law states: If you are under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or have broken the rules in 6-12, the punishment IS jail in up to 2 years.
The punishment chapter of the law (Norwegian) (https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/1993-06-11-101/KAPITTEL_2-14#KAPITTEL_2-14)

To remand the accused is only common sense, since he must considered a flight risk.

And for all the talk about snitching bar maids and close calls for bodybuilders: The vast majority of the ones that police have stopped based on tips have been WAY over the limit.

I cannot se the incentive to "fight" the rules, they are basically the EASA ones........

[Capn Bloggs]

To remand the accused is only common sense, since he must considered a flight risk.

What, a KLM pilot? How about take his passport, put a tracking bracelet on him and have him report each day to the copshop. A bit harsh chucking him in the slammer (unless you have slammers) . He's not even guilty yet.

[Doug E Style]

Their country, their rules. Have a problem with that, stay clear. If you can't get by without consuming alcohol 8 hours before duty, it is perhaps worth considering your choice of occupation.

You've hit the nail squarely on the head there.

[Landflap]

I know I can google and the answer might be buried in these pages anyway, but, can someone just tell me what 0,02, 0,05, 0.08 etc translates to the way I measure things ? You know, glass of white, rum & coke, shandy, etc. Cheers.

[tescoapp]

you can't really because it depends very much on your body weight what its gong to do.

Pint of strong lager 5% plus is meant to be 0.08

Pint of 3% bitter 0.05 which is the one unit ie a small glass of wine.

0.2 less than a half pint of 3% beer.

Females it less.

[Radgirl]

With the caveat that there is a significant difference between people, you need 2 units for 0.05 and 3-4 for 0.08. A pint of beer is 2 units and a glass of wine 2 to 3 units
but you metabolise alcohol at about a unit an hour
So ignoring the suggestion that you have to be at 0.02 8 hours before coming on duty and the idea that bar staff call the police if you order a pint (I dont believe either), it seems Norway is identical to the UK, Europe and almost everywhere else.
The only difference is that they remand people in custody as opposed to giving bail

[M609]

What, a KLM pilot? How about take his passport, put a tracking bracelet on him and have him report each day to the copshop. A bit harsh chucking him in the slammer (unless you have slammers) . He's not even guilty yet.

That only stops those that would never flee in the first place. Heard of bolt cutters and Schengen? ;)

[NWA SLF]

This thread is interesting in that it has raised an old fear of flying. After working for my company overseas for several years, I was asked to sign a zero tolerance agreement upon my return to work in America. Not a small company, one of what we in America call the DOW 30 - the 30 companies that determine how our stock market is performing. So as an engineer, we designing the stuff have a zero limit (which I see from above is really 0.02 as in the error range) but those flying are saying that's too low. And our facility had a special building in place where outside testers came randomly for testing - like I mentioned, we all had to agree to it as a requirement for designing and building stuff where an error could mean life or death.

[DuneMentat]

I don't think anybody is questioning the 0.02 limit for flying - it's more that you must have less than 0.02 at least 8 hours before where in other countries it's just at the start of your duty you must be below 0.02.

[Radgirl]

Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......

[ManaAdaSystem]

Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......

No, I have never said that, nor do I believe that is the law in Norway. What local rules the different airlines have is a different topic.
You don’t need a passport to travel inside Schengen. Odd are this guy would leave the country on the first flight had the police let him go. That is why they kept him. If the test shows he was under the limit, they will let him go.
If he was over, they will fry him.

No, I don’t think the UK police would act any different if they caught a foreign pilot over the limit in the UK.

[TowerDog]

Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......

This guy claimed it:

. According to our company info the rule in the Norway is that you have to be at the 0.02 limit 8 hours before your duty starts which is a rather
different regulation to the other countries.

[cheese bobcat]

Am I being srupid here, but as someone who used to spend over 200 nights a year in hotels, does it not seem reasonable for a chap to have a few bevvies to help him sleep.

If a chap had no alcohol, and spent the whole night tossing and turning, with little sleep, is there some gizmo they could stick in his mouth to tell them he wasn't fit to fly? Of course not.

Please can we try to be reasonable about this and not be beholden to the thought police. I fully appreciate that we do not want pilots who are 'drunk' flying, but there must be a middle ground here somewhere?

CB

[ph-sbe]

In Norway a suspect goes to custody for max 3 days awaiting trial, anything after that one have to be sentenced by a judge/court and in this case the poor KLM pilot was deemed a flight risk if let loos, so he got 2 weeks behind bars just to make sure he would stay and await trial.


This is the most stupid thing I've read in a long time. First of all, they know who he is and where he lives. It's not a random tourist. Second, even IF he would be able to flee the country, The Netherlands has an extradition treaty with Norway as part of the Vienna Treaty. Third, even IF for some reason, he would be able to flee AND convince the Dutch court system to not extradite him, he would be tried in The Netherlands. And from what I've seen, prisons in Norway are a lot better than prisons in The Netherlands.

Not sure the above is draconian, he did not get caned or stoned, just got caught with his pants down.
(Note to self: Don’t drink and drive/fly in Norway. If you do, don’t get caught)

He got caught with his pants down you say? Do you even know the facts of the case? First you talk about him already being sentenced, now you put another nail in his coffin.

He has not been sentenced;
The results of his blood test are not publicly available yet;
Even if he was somewhat over the legal limit, there could be mitigating circumstances such as the body creating alcohol;

None of the actual facts are known to you, and yet you throw him under the bus.

If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.

[Airbubba]

If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.

I'd say Tower Dog probably has more time in the left seat over the outer marker than you've got in the air. ;)

Not being allowed to leave the country after a pilot's alleged alcohol offense is nothing new. The Virgin pilot who was removed from his plane after screeners smelled booze on his breath at IAD was kept in the U.S. because the Loudon County Traffic Court judge considered him a flight risk:

Pilot accused of being drunk held on $25,000 bond

12/22/2003

By CANDACE SMITH / Associated Press

A pilot accused of showing up drunk to fly a plane from Washington to London was ordered held Monday on $25,000 bond and told not to leave the country.

[redacted] was dressed in an orange jail jumpsuit when he appeared on a closed circuit television link from jail, where he has been since late Friday, when he was arrested at Washington Dulles International Airport.

Security screeners alerted Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police after detecting alcohol on [redacted]'s breath, an airport spokeswoman said. Officers escorted [redacted] off the plane and questioned him at the airport before charging him with attempting to operate an aircraft while under the influence of an intoxicating drug or alcohol.

An authority officer testified he approached [redacted] about two hours before his plane's scheduled departure. The officer said no passengers were aboard, and the flight attendants were readying the cabin.

[redacted], 55, spent the weekend at the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center in Leesburg, about 40 miles west of Washington, D.C. The 14-year Virgin Atlantic veteran remained suspended by the airline, which said [redacted] is a U.S. citizen who lives in London and had a spotless record with the company.

[redacted]'s lawyers tried to persuade Loudoun County Traffic Court Judge James Forsythe to allow their client to return home.

"He's not doing well. He has a medical condition — a heart condition," lawyer Thomas Hill told the judge, adding [redacted] needed to see his cardiologist in London. Outside court Hill declined to elaborate about the heart condition.

"He's a model of stability in terms of his life," Hill told the judge. Hill said his client has been married 25 years, and his wife and two children live in London. "He's not a flight risk at all."

Prosecutors were against any bond because [redacted] lives overseas.

"Once a defendant has crossed that border it is very difficult to get them to come back," said Forsythe, who moved the case to the criminal division.


https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/112775-virgin-pilot-held-drink-allegations-7.html#post1115308

[Icejock]

In Sweden we have the 8-hour rule that you have to be sober enough to drive a car, 0,2 per mille.

[TowerDog]

This is the most stupid thing I've read in a long time. First of all, they know who he is and where he lives. It's not a random tourist. Second, even IF he would be able to flee the country, The Netherlands has an extradition treaty with Norway as part of the Vienna Treaty. Third, even IF for some reason, he would be able to flee AND convince the Dutch court system to not extradite him, he would be tried in The Netherlands. And from what I've seen, prisons in Norway are a lot better than prisons in The Netherlands.



He got caught with his pants down you say? Do you even know the facts of the case? First you talk about him already being sentenced, now you put another nail in his coffin.

He has not been sentenced;
The results of his blood test are not publicly available yet;
Even if he was somewhat over the legal limit, there could be mitigating circumstances such as the body creating alcohol;

None of the actual facts are known to you, and yet you throw him under the bus.

If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.

Not sure what drugs you are on Tiger, but if you are still able to read, go back and read it again: Nobody threw the poor guy under the bus.
As for being caught with the pants down, yes, so far it does not look good. I am surprised the official % of blood alcohol is not out yet. It should not take 4-5 days, more like 5 minutes.

The sentence is temporary: You have to have a judge sentence you for more than 3 days in custody. Hence some judge in this case deemed him a flight risk and did a temporary 2 week sentence awaiting trial.
This has been mentioned a few times already. Not sure why you are confused on this?
(If the police could toss you in jail for 2 weeks without a judge involved, you would be in a banana republic)

As for holding an Airman’s Certificate, Yes, got a few of those, been flying commercial for 37 years and had a few situations like the above.

[TowerDog]

. I'd say Tower Dog probably has more time in the left seat over the outer marker than you've got in the air. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif


Aye, thx for the support but it may be wasted calories on dingbats.

[ph-sbe]

Not sure what drugs you are on Tiger, but if you are still able to read, go back and read it again: Nobody threw the poor guy under the bus.
As for being caught with the pants down, yes, so far it does not look good. I am surprised the official % of blood alcohol is not out yet. It should not take 4-5 days, more like 5 minutes.

The sentence is temporary: You have to have a judge sentence you for more than 3 days in custody. Hence some judge in this case deemed him a flight risk and did a temporary 2 week sentence awaiting trial.
This has been mentioned a few times already. Not sure why you are confused on this?
(If the police could toss you in jail for 2 weeks without a judge involved, you would be in a banana republic)

As for holding an Airman’s Certificate, Yes, got a few of those, been flying commercial for 37 years and had a few situations like the above.

Luckily not on any drugs at all, and I do apologize for questioning your seniority. Your 37 years are way more than my meazly 8.

That said, I reread your comments again. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm reading it as text without intonation, but your writing is received on my end as unnecessary harsh at this time. Even in the post above, you talked about the man being sentenced twice. He has not been sentenced. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The only thing that the judge ruled on was that there is sufficient evidence to hold the man while the investigation continues. See also this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remand_(detention)


The Virgin pilot who was removed from his plane after screeners smelled booze on his breath at IAD was kept in the U.S. because the Loudon County Traffic Court judge considered him a flight risk:


Those are different circumstances. In this case, the British national could have returned home and successfully fight extradition on several grounds, including the U.S. prison standards, unfair trials and unduly hard sentencing guidelines. In the case of the KLM pilot, those arguments will not hold.

As for being caught with the pants down: this is the message I object the most to. He was not caught with the pants down. All we know at this time is that the breathalyzer registered a value which is slightly higher than legally allowed. There are many reasons why this could occur, and there is a reason why a blood test is required afterwards. Even if the blood test shows similar values, there could be medical reasons for the elevated levels of alcohol.

Even if this was caused by willful consuming alcoholic beverages: pretty much everyone will agree that this most likely would not have impacted flight safety in any way. To me it sounds like the equivalent of doing 70 on a 65mph freeway.

I guess that all I'm saying here is: give the man the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty, and don't hang him out to dry as if he was sentenced to life in prison already.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning flying impaired in any way. I don't drink or do drugs at all.

[GearDownThreeGreen]

I feel the need to clarify a few things regarding the Norwegian law on this.

1. You are not allowed to have a blood concentration higher than 0.02% at the start of your flight duty period (planning stage).

2. You are not allowed to consume alcohol for a period of 8 hours prior to a flight duty period.

3. There is no such rule that you must be under the legal limit 8 hours prior to a flight duty period!

4. Most Norwegian operators impose their own stricter policy of no consumption the last 12 hours prior to flight duty. This is only for internal diciplining (most likely sacking), but not of any concern regarding punishment by law.

5. It is only if you know you have messed up, and should understand that it will lead to an investigation of some sort, that you shall not drink any alcohol for 6 hours after the incident. This also applies for driving cars. There was a case last year about a helicopter pilot who crashed, and who was drunk when the authorities arrived. He claimed he had been so shook up and disturbed by the incident that he had concumed large amounts of alcohol afterwards. He, I believe, was actually aquitted and released by the court of appeal, after an initial sentencing earlier.

Norway is also notorious for holding people on remand awaiting trial, and they have several times been reported by human rights organizations to the ECHR in Strasbourg for the practice.

[TowerDog]

Norway is also notorious for holding people on remand awaiting trial, and they have several times been reported by human rights organizations to the ECHR in Strasbourg for the practice.


I had had no idea that Norway had such a record so I tried a quick google search and found something, but not my cup of tea analyzing reuslts.

The Court dealt with 132 applications concerning Norway in 2017, of which 129 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 3 judgments (concerning 3 applications), one of which found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.







https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/CP_Norway_ENG.pdf
[/left]

[ManaAdaSystem]

Let us backtrack this «little over the limit» and «not so serious» incident.
I will use the numbers in thousands, ie the limit is 0.2. Just to avoid a lot of 0.0xx.

He was apparently a little over the limit. Let’s say he tested 0.3. An adult burns off roughly 0.15 each hour. Stopped drinking (hopefully) 8 hours before duty. He was 1.2 + 0.3 = 1.5 8 hours before duty. That equals drunk 8 hours before duty.
You may fall asleep faster when under the influence, but your sleep quality is less.
There is a good chance he was feeling a bit under the weather when he went to work. And a bit dizzy since he was not sober.

I am a drinker so I know how I would have felt.
If the blood sample confirms the initial test, I don’t think this is a minor case. He either has an alcohol problem, or just had too much to drink the night before.
I think he is right where he should be, but the blood test should have been done by know.

[fox niner]

Agree. The blood test and result is probably known to those involved. However, someone is doing a good job to prevent it getting leaked to the media.

[Radgirl]

Rubbish. First we do not know the actual blood level. These very low levels measured on non evidential machines are not that accurate. Second we do not know his ethnicity, his normal alcohol consumption, whether he had eaten before/ after, any concommitant disease or infections etc etc. So he may have had a blood level equivalent to a couple of large glasses of wine 8 hours before (most people would not consider that drunk!) or he may not have.

[Ancient Mariner]

Rubbish. First we do not know the actual blood level. These very low levels measured on non evidential machines are not that accurate. Second we do not know his ethnicity, his normal alcohol consumption, whether he had eaten before/ after, any concommitant disease or infections etc etc. So he may have had a blood level equivalent to a couple of large glasses of wine 8 hours before (most people would not consider that drunk!) or he may not have.
None of that matters, above the limit is above the limit. End off.
Per

[BluSdUp]

I suspect You are a Medical Dr. And interested in aviation, An AME also?
You then know that our profession are or at least was rife with heavy drinking. And if You do not know this , it is time to read up.
I find it fascinating that so many of you defend this chap, is it maybe that he is KLM.
I guarantee the postings would have been different if it was a Antonov crew in a freighter from say Ukraine or Mombasa Charter !

I personally have seen a KLM pilot go to work PISSED!
I asked him to call in sick, but he did not!!

Anyway , This guy can be a reminder to us all. And he gets the help he needs.
Cheers
Cpt B

[ph-sbe]

I find it fascinating that so many of you defend this chap, is it maybe that he is KLM.


For me, it's not about defending the chap, it's about making sure he gets due process and not hung at the largest tree in the village. If he did attempt to fly while impaired: shame on him, and let's get him some treatment besides a corrective penalty.

But until such time as he has been convicted in a court of law, and sentenced, I believe it is important that those with airman certificates stick up for their fellow aviator. And more important: abstain from joining the mob asking for the death penalty of flight (LOL etc).

[Radgirl]

Ancient Mariner - totally agree with you. If he is over he deserves to be convicted. I was merely pointing out that you can be over without being stone drunk 8 hours before.

Equally BluSdUp - I am defending nobody, merely pointing out that this chap has been accused but not convicted and that Norway has the same rules as everyone else except they dont give bail.

Please read the thread properly before making accusations.

[BluSdUp]

Ph
He DID try to fly while impaired, according to prosecutor ( Two breathalyzer test, then a blood test that takes a few days to analyze). And You condone that!!
He hung himself , dude !
We have had a fair law system for ca 1400 years, it was the spring assembly were all men could settle all disputes among equals. Stringing people up in a tree is not a pastime here!

[BizJetJock]

according to prosecutor
So in your book if the prosecutor claims something it is atomatically correct? We obviously don't need trials then, just hang all the guilty b@stards!
We have had a fair law system for ca 1400 years
No thanks to you, by the sound of it.

[BluSdUp]

You clever boy ,you.
You got me, I am more a" String Him Up" kinda guy! I was talking about Norway and its court system, not my private one!
I have been accused of being the reincarnation of Eigil Skalagrimson that sailed to Island from were I now live.
Google him , and you get an idea of my attitude!
Zigar is in the mail!
Cheers
Cpt B

[RAT 5]

Two breathalyzer test, then a blood test that takes a few days to analyse.

I'm undergoing some heavy medical treatment that requires regular blood tests before each stage. Often there are 8-16 ampules taken. All test results are known within 90mins. And I'm not the only one there. A few days? Come on. Are there not machines for auto-festing? There are for many other blood parameters. Keeping someone in clink for days while a (I suppose) simple blood test is done seems OTT.

[Heathrow Harry]

ph-sbe makes some valid points but

"I guess that all I'm saying here is: give the man the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty, and don't hang him out to dry as if he was sentenced to life in prison already. "

might well be the case in the US but in Norway (and other places) that's not how it works - fail the Breathalyzer and you are effectively convicted - it's only the sentence to be decided - much like running a red light in small-town Arkansas

As ever it's the individuals responsibility to know and obey the law WHEREVER they are, - home or abroad

[ManaAdaSystem]

ph-sbe makes some valid points but

"I guess that all I'm saying here is: give the man the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty, and don't hang him out to dry as if he was sentenced to life in prison already. "

might well be the case in the US but in Norway (and other places) that's not how it works - fail the Breathalyzer and you are effectively convicted - it's only the sentence to be decided - much like running a red light in small-town Arkansas

Absolute rubbish! You don’t get convicted unless a blood sample confirms the breathalyzer test. He is locked up because there is a risk of him bailing the country.

[RAT 5]

Curious. If he is proven not guilty and released does he have any claim for e.g. loss of earnings and any other work or social disruptions? Or is it a case of 'that's the way the law is here, mate, so live with it'?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Curious. If he is proven not guilty and released does he have any claim for e.g. loss of earnings and any other work or social disruptions? Or is it a case of 'that's the way the law is here, mate, so live with it'?

I would think he could make a claim against the Norwegians to get a compensation for his period in jail, loss of income, etc. At the same time I don’t think the authorities would lock him up if they were in doubt about his alcohol level. What works in his favor is the time spent between breathalyzer and blood sample. I would imagine they need to transport him somewhere to do that. That could mean another hour where his alcohol level is reduced further. Assuming he did not drink just before duty.

[RoyHudd]

Seems to be in short supply on this issue. Interpretation of the law seems to be part of the problem. As ever.

No drink, no cry in Norway anyhow.

[sleeper]

It has been a week now since his incarceration. I would think the result of the test is in now. Anyone out there with the result?

[ph-sbe]

Ph
He DID try to fly while impaired, according to prosecutor ( Two breathalyzer test, then a blood test that takes a few days to analyze). And You condone that!!


If you read my posts again, you might understand that

A) I don't condone flying while impaired.

and, most importantly

B) What I'm saying is not that he is not guilty of the charges. What I'm saying is that a breathalyzer test is not as accurate as a BAC determination based on blood drawn by a professional, and that since the chap was only barely over the limit, professionals should give the man the benefit of the doubt before publicly lynching him.

[RAT 5]

Any knowledge of the outcome? Must be known by now?

[drop24]

Do Dutch pilots get tested regularly for cannabis? I'm curious, as more countries are legalizing it, how KLM has handled that issue.

[Heathrow Harry]

Any knowledge of the outcome? Must be known by now?

Seem to remember you come up to court within 28 days (as that's the limit they can hold your Licence and stop you from driving) so still a week or so outstanding.......................

[BGO]

Seem to remember you come up to court within 28 days (as that's the limit they can hold your Licence and stop you from driving) so still a week or so outstanding.......................
As far as I know, the custody was set for 14 days. No information about a possible extension of custody or release from jail found.

[Heathrow Harry]

nothing on the web............

[Airbubba]

Are American pilots regularly tested for cannabis?

Yes, and it is a showstopper if you test positive as a pilot with an FAA medical.

DOT OFFICE OF DRUG AND ALCOHOL POLICY AND COMPLIANCE NOTICE
Recently, some states passed initiatives to permit use of marijuana for so-called “recreational” purposes. We have had several inquiries about whether these state initiatives will have an impact upon the Department of Transportation’s longstanding regulation about the use of marijuana by safety‐sensitive transportation employees – pilots, school bus drivers, truck drivers, train engineers, subway operators, aircraft maintenance personnel, transit fire‐armed security personnel, ship captains, and pipeline emergency response personnel, among others.

We want to make it perfectly clear that the state initiatives will have no bearing on the Department of Transportation’s regulated drug testing program. The Department of Transportation’s Drug and Alcohol Testing Regulation – 49 CFR Part 40 – does not authorize the use of Schedule I drugs, including marijuana, for any reason.

Therefore, Medical Review Officers (MROs) will not verify a drug test as negative based upon learning that the employee used “recreational marijuana” when states have passed “recreational marijuana” initiatives. We also firmly reiterate that an MRO will not verify a drug test negative based upon information that a physician recommended that the employee use “medical marijuana” when states have passed “medical marijuana” initiatives.

https://www.transportation.gov/odapc/dot-recreational-marijuana-notice

Aside from any state law pertaining to the use of marijuana within a state, it is important to be aware that the FAA's regulation [14 CFR § 120.33(b)] (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=9d1f0081a4a84575efb21b5511b98172;rgn=div5;vie w=text;node=14%3A3.0.1.1.6;idno=14;cc=ecfr#se14.3.120_133), expressly prohibits you from performing a safety-sensitive function for a certificate holder while having a prohibited drug, which includes marijuana and marijuana metabolites, in your system. If you are a pilot, a verified positive drug test result for marijuana on a required DOT/FAA test will make you unqualified to hold an FAA-issued medical certificate.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/drug_alcohol/policy/qa_sse/a3/

[TowerDog]

Why do you ask? Are American pilots regularly tested for cannabis? Statistically they seem to pose a greater risk than the Dutch.. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-countries-that-smoke-the-most-cannabis/


US pilots are not regularly tested for illegal drugs, but we have random drug tests: Pee-pee in a cup with no notice.

[SigWit]

The pilot has now been fired bij KLM. The verdict by the civil judge states he had bloodtested for 0.35 BAC initially, and 0.27 BAC later on. There is no court ruling yet in Norway, as far as I am concerned.

[EIFFS]

In 20+ years of flying I have been tested twice, once in Oslo last Xmas and once in Sweden the previous year, both random, we were inbound on both occasions with turnaround.

All crew members tested, all clear.

With regard to locking someone up without bail i suspect that a Norwegian cell is somewhat better than a Turkish one.

no one can condone alcohol and flying even though the stats show the ( historic) risk to flight is all but zero.

Of course min rest on night stops can be down to 10 hours and many companies have a zero alcohol intake policy of 12 prior to report.