Lightning beat up of RAFC graduation parade

[A2QFI]

Good Morning.

i know that there was a well remembered low flypast by an F4 with hats blown off etc. I am now hearing about an alleged 50ft flypast on one engine and supersonic (?) by a Lightning! I doubt any such event occurred - does anyone know differently, please?

[charliegolf]

Surely any pilot with an engine out who's not on his way to a diversion airfield is a moron? Surely any pilot who presses on with a flypast of the public under such conditions is a criminal? So no, not too likely, I'm thinking.

CG

[MPN11]

What he said!

The scenario is beyond stupid.

[Bro]

Why would a Lightning with one engine out be on its way to a diversion? To fly on one engine was a recognized way to save fuel when flying at low level.

I agree though that such an event is unlikely to have taken place.

[GeeRam]

Maybe only one reheat engaged when hitting the burners (not uncommon) and someone thought that meant that only one engine was running.........??

[MPN11]

Maybe only one reheat engaged when hitting the burners (not uncommon) and someone thought that meant that only one engine was running.........??
Thus cancelling out the hypothetical “50ft and supersonic” ... ??? Those last 2 parameters (certainly the second) seem incredible. The latter would have caused so much damage that a CM would have been inevitable. The former? Well, it was different in those days, but even so!

[jindabyne]

A surfeit of red, A2?

[ORAC]

I’ve had one over my head below 50ft transonic........

Sometime in 1984 at Staxton Wold and the mayoress of Scarborough was paying a visit. Sqn Ldr Ops asks if we can arrange a flypast and, as luck would have it, we had a singleton Lightning whose playmate had cancelled. So I asked if he could do a pass in about 15 minutes.

“Who for?”, he asked - “gold chain job from Scarborough”, says I. “OK”,says he.

So I let the boss know, tell him is clear in at his own discretion VFR and I am going off frequency to watch and rush out of R12 down into the grass in the middle of the site.

OC and Sqn Ldr Ops (Taff Leyland) along with mayoress join me and we watch the sky to the east and a dot comes into sight, silent and dropping.

“He’s fast”, I say to Taff. “About 450kts?”, says Taff. “No, fast”, says I.

He dropped over the fence, about 10ft high, at the front of the site with shock waves over the wing and rotated about 50yds in front of use. All of us went flying across the grass from the pressure wave, as did all the dustbins, fire extinguishers and everything else loose on the site - and we lay there watching him do twinkle rolls as he shot skywards.

The mayoress thought it was brilliant......

[zed3]

ORAC... brilliant, don't mean to be pedantic but it must have been Staxton Wold. I can see the world's oldest operational radar station from my house in Scarborough. Can anyone arrange a repeat performance, it doesn't have to be a Lightning... and let me know...; )

[Onceapilot]

Great tale ORAC, and I believe it from those days. :ok:
OAP

[George K Lee]

Reminds me of the TGTBT, but actually true, tale from the early 1960s at Holloman...

In those far distant days, the FAA was actually thinking that supersonic transports might be allowed to boom overland. Part of the research into this was the construction of a movie-set "boom town" at Holloman, where the effects of the boom on people in structures could be assessed. Naturally the FAA wanted the Gentlemen of the Press to witness this, so a trip and briefing was organized and booms were laid down from high altitude.

BOOORRIIING, said the TV folks and snappers. So a flypast was arranged while, indoors, the wrap-up briefing went on.

Whose idea was it to get an F-104 to do the flyby? I mean, it's a fast and slippery airplane, and a hotshot jet pilot concentrating on his altitude might not pay enough attention to the Machmet....

KABOOOM! The snapper from Time captures the jet behind a cloud of plate glass. In the briefing room, a heavy glass ashtray jumps off the table beside the briefer and explodes on the floor.

The FAA still bans commercial supersonic flight, outright, no exceptions.

[Pontius Navigator]

George, there was a Thud trial, same period, to investigate sonic booms as a kill or disabling mechanism. It was determined that it would need an overbought at 5 feet to be fully effective. Against standing troops it would have been lethal :) but at some risk to the little pinky in the Thud.

[KiloB]

George, there was a Thud trial, same period, to investigate sonic booms as a kill or disabling mechanism. It was determined that it would need an overbought at 5 feet to be fully effective. Against standing troops it would have been lethal :) but at some risk to the little pinky in the Thud.

Still, potentially more effective than the “Show of Force” tactic, which puts aircrew at risk for NO possible impact on the enemy!

[BEagle]

In 1973/4, I was doing my post-University Officer Training at RAFC. Weather, serviceability and other factors had delayed training, so a lot of people were rather dispirited by the whole Towers nause.

So 'they' decided that some motivation was needed and arranged for a Lightning to come over for a practice diversion. I well recall how it did so and the impressive hot streak burner light up as it went around ('overshot' in those days), accelerated to warp several and disappeared upwards....:ok:

A Vulcan was also asked to make an appearance; I was peering out of the College Hall ante room window and saw this smoke belching monster climbing at a very impressive angle before a wingover directly over the College. I gather that the grown ups weren't very happy about that and Words Were Had. But to us it looked great!

Whereas nowadays all you're likely to see at Towers is a Plastic Pig or perhaps a toy bizjet..:(

[2 TWU]

There was an incident at Fawlty Towers in the early Lighting days, a pilot (BJ) was accused of blowing out some windows in the tower. At the subsequent grilling the only witness for the prosecution was a retired Wg Cdr who I believe was the college librarian. It turned out he didn't see the deed, only heard it, case dismissed.

[Wander00]

ORAC - more successful than farewell flypast for OC Ops (John...., last Branch Officer wg cdr) at Neat in about 85, when the Lightning called he was pulling up between the towers - trouble was it was Bacton gas terminal, not Neatishead.

[GeeRam]

George, there was a Thud trial, same period, to investigate sonic booms as a kill or disabling mechanism. It was determined that it would need an overbought at 5 feet to be fully effective. Against standing troops it would have been lethal :) but at some risk to the little pinky in the Thud.

The Dutch AF made use of that effect in 1977 with their F-104's at the start of their Marines attack on that hijacked train.

[multum in parvo]

No 92 or 93 IOT (1986) Graduation Parade had a Lightning flypast . It passed over the parade East to West then pulled a 270 and headed straight for CHOM. As the support sqn we were able to brace slightly by moving the left foot forward. Of course the gathered multitude had no idea what was going on behind them and the first they knew was went the aircraft went vertical right above their heads and disappeared out of sight. A number of seats needed to be dried out after the parade.

[Tiger G]

I’ve had one over my head below 50ft transonic........

Sometime in 1984 at Staxton Wold and the mayoress of Scarborough was paying a visit. Sqn Ldr Ops asks if we can arrange a flypast and, as luck would have it, we had a singleton Lightning whose playmate had cancelled. So I asked if he could do a pass in about 15 minutes.

“Who for?”, he asked - “gold chain job from Scarborough”, says I. “OK”,says he.

So I let the boss know, tell him is clear in at his own discretion VFR and I am going off frequency to watch and rush out of R12 down into the grass in the middle of the site.

OC and Sqn Ldr Ops (Taff Leyland) along with mayoress join me and we watch the sky to the east and a dot comes into sight, silent and dropping.

“He’s fast”, I say to Taff. “About 450kts?”, says Taff. “No, fast”, says I.

He dropped over the fence, about 10ft high, at the front of the site with shock waves over the wing and rotated about 50yds in front of use. All of us went flying across the grass from the pressure wave, as did all the dustbins, fire extinguishers and everything else loose on the site - and we lay there watching him do twinkle rolls as he shot skywards.

The mayoress thought it was brilliant......


Mmmm - I'm nursing a semi :O

[burylad]

93IOT had the Lightning flypast. Fast, loud & awesome of course. Returned & went ballistic as slow marched into the Rotunda with the domed tower amplifying the lung shaker. Ecstasy lol.

[exrivofrigido]

Still, potentially more effective than the “Show of Force” tactic, which puts aircrew at risk for NO possible impact on the enemy!


Well, having seen (and requested) shows of force from the ground, they could be very effective indeed. Of course, there were 'shows of force' and 'SHOWS OF FORCE' - GR4 down low good, WAH-64 lurking with menace better, B-1 at 100 feet and at full power frightened everyone! But as long as the enemy knew the script (which was 'this is your last warning - the next pass won't be friendly' it was very effective indeed, and avoided the need to fling too much ordnance around unnecessarily.

[teeteringhead]

It was determined that it would need an overflight at 5 feet to be fully effective ISTR similar plans for an anti-helicopter tactic.

But for any sort of air-to-air. we (helos) always reckoned there would be more attractive trade for the "fast and pointed". Inshallah

[RedhillPhil]

The fun starts at about 00:30 for these kangaroo botherers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Mh3dsln9M

[MPN11]

What’s Australian for oops!

[Bob Viking]

What on earth do you think you’re doing?!

You can’t come on here spouting facts borne of actual recent operational experience. You are supposed to offer up unsubstantiated opinions based on supposition and hearsay.

Do you know nothing?!

BV

[Danny42C]

It used to be called "Turning the other cheek" .........

From "Daily Telegraph" (Victoria Ward) 09/01/2015:

......"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010. There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket at their accommodation block. Wg Cdr Thomas, as navigator, and Flt Lt Fleming were already airborne over the base and cleared the airspace around Kandahar for a “show of force.”

"They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb. The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues".

Wg Cdr Thomas said at the time: “We can perform a range of effects from a show of force to the provision of precise lethal force utilising a variety of advanced weaponry. The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground" . We do whatever they need to help them out in a sticky situation, be that just a radio relay between the ground elements to dropping precision weaponry on insurgents"......

[or scaring them off, so they can come back tomorrow and try again ? - I had to pinch myself when I read that ! - but then, remember that in the early days of WWII, we were dropping warning leaflets on Germany].

What do you think ?

[KiloB]

I don’t understand why you would want the enemy to “understand the Script”.
In warfare the object is to find and kill the enemy. The current situation is no different except that in current conflicts the ‘finding’ part is more difficult than the ‘killing’ part.
Why then, having found the opposition, would you want to give him the opportunity to scurry off and manufacture another 20 IEDs (to kill and maim your mates), all the while bragging how he faced you down and escaped.

[Pontius Navigator]

The fun starts at about 00:30 for these kangaroo botherers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Mh3dsln9M
shoddy workmanship obviously :)

[Timelord]

I don’t understand why you would want the enemy to “understand the Script”.
In warfare the object is to find and kill the enemy. The current situation is no different except that in current conflicts the ‘finding’ part is more difficult than the ‘killing’ part.
Why then, having found the opposition, would you want to give him the opportunity to scurry off and manufacture another 20 IEDs (to kill and maim your mates), all the while bragging how he faced you down and escaped.




I think the idea is that the crowd blocking the way of the convoy might not be “enemy” , just slightly grumpy about you being in their village. Putting a Paveway 4 into them will certainly turn their families into the enemy though.

[exrivofrigido]

I think the idea is that the crowd blocking the way of the convoy might not be “enemy” , just slightly grumpy about you being in their village. Putting a Paveway 4 into them will certainly turn their families into the enemy though.





What he said. Look, I'm as keen on killing the sods as the next chap (especially when it's me they're shooting at), and, having long been a fan of air shows, the opportunity to see a GR4 do a bit of strafing purely for my entertainment is almost too good to pass up. The problem, however, was that the enemy was adept at hiding in amongst the population, or infrastructure we were reluctant to smash (Afghan dams may be less spectacular than German ones, but they're also rather easier to knock over - and let's not get started on mosques and schools). Think of it as avoiding the instant gratification of splatting the immediate problem to chase the folorn hope of arriving sooner at a solution to the wider one. I know, we're still trying, but, let's face it, the 'kill everything' option didn't work either. A tour earlier in the campaign saw a single Bn's mortars fire more than 10,000 rounds of 81mm HE. They largely hit what they were aiming at (you'd be surprised at just how accurate a decent mortar platoon can be) - but whether what they were aiming at really needed hitting was the question.

Hence buzzing malefactors in ditches, even when it was obvious that they deserved a PAVEWAY to the face. Danny is absolutely right - nothing new under the sun, though I'd hazard that we seem to have reversed the order since his war, and moved on to leaflets (and shows of force) after trying bombs! We did use a few bombs too though. ;)

Edited for Infantry spelung.

[exrivofrigido]

And BV, you're right: I fell into the trap! Fear not - I'll find another thread on which I can vent my foetid opinions on the efficacy or not of things of which the media (social or otherwise) have formed my basis for reference. Much more fun that way!

Danny, perhaps you'll at least allow us to bask in a little Christian virtue? Turning the other cheek feels like a gentlemanly act, especially if accompanied by a wry shrug, a fag and a brew. But then again, my grandfather, a staunch and committed Methodist all his life, used to fly to Germany and drop bombs on urban areas (until they tired of his habits and shot him down). I've almost given up trying to understand the rules of this game!

[NutLoose]

The Aussie was a beginner, how about the Brazillian Supreme Court building

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eoTqLnL0WI

[Danny42C]

No, I'm afraid I'm too old to grasp the niceties of this. These folk intend to kill you, or your comrades; if they don't do it today, they'll try tomorrow. They are your enemy, and it is your sworn duty to kill them, and that's all there is to it.

Don't think you'd need a Paveway for a pick-up truck. Doesn't a Tornado have a 29 (?) mm cannon ? That should do. But what do I know - I only dropped bog-standard 500 lb and 250 lb H.E.s.

I've read somewhere that the Captain of "Conqueror", when he had "Belgrano" in his sights, had to signal Northwood for permission to fire. Can this really be true ? What would one of Nelson's captains have done ? - and Nelson would've Court-Martialled him if he didn't.

Autre temps, autre moeurs.

[MPN11]

The politics and nuances of Insurgent Warfare present severe challenges. At least YOUR War was fairly straightforward..

[exrivofrigido]

No, I'm afraid I'm too old to grasp the niceties of this. These folk intend to kill you, or your comrades; if they don't do it today, they'll try tomorrow. They are your enemy, and it is your sworn duty to kill them, and that's all there is to it.

Don't think you'd need a Paveway for a pick-up truck. Doesn't a Tornado have a 29 (?) mm cannon ? That should do. But what do I know - I only dropped bog-standard 500 lb and 250 lb H.E.s.

I've read somewhere that the Captain of "Conqueror", when he had "Belgrano" in his sights, had to signal Northwood for permission to fire. Can this really be true ? What would one of Nelson's captains have done ? - and Nelson would've Court-Martialled him if he didn't.

Autre temps, autre moeurs.

Well, you aren't wrong, and the long screwdriver can be shocking. I have indeed sat in the eponymous ditch, and listened to a heartfelt argument between an Apache pilot and the Brigade legal advisor (yes, really) about whether or not he could redecorate a field with the chap firing a machine gun at us. Legal advisor won and we were left to our own miserable devices to exercise 'courageous restraint'. I must say, little sympathy was felt from the ground, and the pilot turned the air pretty blue too. But, in less crass circumstances, there was a place for a show of force. When we simply couldn't identify where the enemy was (surprisingly often), or distinguish him from the non-combatants (even more so), it helped. But, of course, it only worked if the enemy recognised the threat - a show of force when no force has previously been used is just an air display.

I think what I'm trying, clumsily, to say, is that we haven't yet grown out of doing bad things to worse people, but there is such an expectation (usually very misguidedly) of zero collateral damage, that the chains are short and tight. But perhaps, in a general war, it won't be so. Insh'allah....

[MPN11]

exrivofrigido (https://www.pprune.org/members/262836-exrivofrigido) valuable imputs, for which thanks from me. A very nasty ‘game’ with horribly complex rules. Glad you are still here to contribute.

[exrivofrigido]

Thank you MPN, but I can assure you that I just muddled through like most others. Every now and then one came across someone who genuinely understood what was going on, and to them ought to go the plaudits. Well, if we ever get out of the mess, of course. A team game though, and very glad we were to have friends 'upstairs' when we needed them,

[RedhillPhil]

The Aussie was a beginner, how about the Brazillian Supreme Court building

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eoTqLnL0WI

Now that's impressive.

[Fonsini]

There was the (verified) tale of a recon F-8 during the Cuban Missile Crisis evading a pursuing MiG at treetop height while supersonic and making his way back out to sea. Having lost sight of the MiG the pilot aimed his jet at a low ridge or saddle between 2 higher hilltops. The ridge was bare and as the pilot approached he noticed some dots on the ridgeline. Turns out it was a campesino and 2 burros, the soon-to-be victim was in the process of relieving himself when the F-8 went over his head at maybe 50 feet. The aftermath remains a thing of speculation.

[ivor toolbox]

well..... as this thread has now drifted to low level showing of force, Operation Pulsator, Beirut comes to mind. Bucc's properly low.

Ttfn

[pulse1]

We mustn't leave out the Ark Royal's Buccaneers show of force over British Honduras which put an end to Guatemala's plans to invade.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5237235/Phoenix-Squadron-by-Rowland-White-review.html

[Danny42C]

exrivofrigido (#35),

but there is such an expectation (usually very misguidedly) of zero collateral damage, that the chains are short and tight. But perhaps, in a general war, it won't be so. Insh'allah...
You have hit the nail right on the head there ! The best comment on a "general" war came from an old uncle of mine who'd served his time in the trenches in France: "When the scrapiron starts flying about, everybody's liable to get hurt". "Collateral" damage is inevitable.

Our Bomber campaign killed (how many) non-combatant Germans in WWII ? (the Luftwaffe returned the compliment). How many innocent Burmese men, women and children did my bombs kill ? I'll never know.

I've said before: "War is war; it is not nice; the innocent must suffer with the guilty; it was ever so, and will ever be so". The logical French put it in three syllables: "C'ést la guerre".

[exrivofrigido]

exrivofrigido (#35),

You have hit the nail right on the head there ! The best comment on a "general" war came from an old uncle of mine who'd served his time in the trenches in France: "When the scrapiron starts flying about, everybody's liable to get hurt". "Collateral" damage is inevitable.

Our Bomber campaign killed (how many) non-combatant Germans in WWII ? (the Luftwaffe returned the compliment). How many innocent Burmese men, women and children did my bombs kill ? I'll never know.

I've said before: "War is war; it is not nice; the innocent must suffer with the guilty; it was ever so, and will ever be so". The logical French put it in three syllables: "C'ést la guerre".


Danny, I couldn't agree more - and unlike most of us (and hopefully it will remain that way), you have actually experienced a war. *Our 'war' was really just the 21st Century equivalent of Kipling's 'scrimmage in a border defile'. *Dangerous and deadly to some, of course, but a long way away and not really of much consequence outside our own little bubble. *And I don't know about jezails, but our enemy was pretty hopeless with Kalashnikovs (and even - largely - with proper .303 rifles). *So we muddled through, errors and crimes against decent soldiering largely unpunished. *Our grandfathers wouldn't have got away with it against Germans or Japanese, but then nor would they have spent so much time drinking tea and discussing crop rotation with the civilians who happened to live on the battlefield. *Counter-insurgency is a conundrum - neither fish nor fowl. *As a wise man said of Afghanistan (and many other places, no doubt), 'if you think you understand the tribes, you haven't been paying attention'. *The sad irony is that we really needn't have messed it up, but we did (by dumping the place and heading to Iraq), and now here we are. *I hope, if a proper war heaves into sight, we can still fall back on the lessons hard-learned by those (such as you) who stood a proper test and lived to explain how.

Anyway, back to people knocking hats off with Lightnings and other noisy animals...