RP18

[CyberT]

Hearing rumors that a deal has been reached over RP's

So we can safely assume amongst other things that ...

O days have been scrapped
Credit free reserve has been scrapped
Credit for a leave day = 84 / 30

[betpump5]

Hahaha. Yes, that's exactly what "improvements in language" means...

Sign of things to come. I.e sweet FA

​​​​​​

[main_dog]

“this in-principle agreement is conditional on reaching an overall agreement on other matters”...

Translation, we’ll slightly improve the wording (but still retain the ability to do as we please with new, imaginative interpretations of said wording) as soon as you stop this pesky training ban.

[betpump5]

So the "we have instructed the NC to walk away at first sign of.." was just posturing. It must be if "improvements to language" is worthy of an email.

[BalusKaptan]

We, the membership said "No Concessions". Any concessions in a TA then we know exactly how to vote. We are all wise to the fact that a concession maybe dressed up in fancy wording to not appear as a concession but we are all smart ladies and lads and can see through that in an instant.
In addition we DO NOT PAY to regain anything that was unilaterally taken away from us. Try anything like that and there will be a huge NO vote.

[betpump5]

A NO vote from YOU and ME maybe.

But look at the posts from our SOs. Listen to the moans from the likes of nosetothegrindstone (or whatever his name is) and even though the warnings were written here, they still came.

They are the majority. And a few measley grand to HKPA with an end to the TB so they can finally sit in the right seat of the not so shiny jet will easily swing the vote.

[Shep69]

So let me get this straight. An SO would vote for marginally (and very marginally at that compared with years past) better conditions today fully well knowing that a few years down the line if he winds up staying he will be dramatically worse off.

Sounds like nuts to me.

[SloppyJoe]

Not if you plan to leave once you have some meaningful hours other than P2X. Faster upgrade, bit more cash then leave. These are people with no loyalty to CX, accepted reduced conditions then complained, I don't expect any solidarity from many tbh.

[betpump5]

So let me get this straight. An SO would vote for marginally (and very marginally at that compared with years past) better conditions today fully well knowing that a few years down the line if he winds up staying he will be dramatically worse off.

Sounds like nuts to me.

Yes!!! You want proof? They came here in the first place!! Whats more nuts than that?

Like I wrote in another thread, when you prepare for your interview with CX via research etc, PPrune always comes in the top 10. All the warning were there but they ignored it!!

I'm not talking about the starry eyed spikey haired wannabe in their early twenties that everyone here belittles. I'm talking about our 30-40 year old Dash-8 Qantas link guys (and equivalent) who risked everything including their families because Cathay told them they will be a JFO in 2 years. These are the ones with SJS. And will ultimately vote yes for 2 things and 2 things only.

Increase in HKPA. End to TB to get that P1 rating. Then they'll bugger off.

[Shep69]

Yes!!! You want proof? They came here in the first place!! Whats more nuts than that?

Like I wrote in another thread, when you prepare for your interview with CX via research etc, PPrune always comes in the top 10. All the warning were there but they ignored it!!

I'm not talking about the starry eyed spikey haired wannabe in their early twenties that everyone here belittles. I'm talking about our 30-40 year old Dash-8 Qantas link guys (and equivalent) who risked everything including their families because Cathay told them they will be a JFO in 2 years. These are the ones with SJS. And will ultimately vote yes for 2 things and 2 things only.

Increase in HKPA. End to TB to get that P1 rating. Then they'll bugger off.

Wow.....guess it's more like Locust Pilot Syndrome then.

Come in, destroy everything for everyone downline of you including those who got here decades before you, then bug out.

There really isn't any way at all to fix the situation then. Except get while the gettin's good.

[controlledrest]

So let me get this straight. An SO would vote for marginally (and very marginally at that compared with years past) better conditions today fully well knowing that a few years down the line if he winds up staying he will be dramatically worse off.

Sounds like nuts to me.

Yes, they would. A few more $, some P1 time, then they are gone.

Easy fix. The CG shall not present to the membership for a vote any TA which has any concessions. One pilot group shall not pay for an improvement in conditions of any other pilot group. We have done this too many times before. We can always walk away.

[AQIS Boigu]

It is the old story.

How often have we heard the same line on the dlight deck at 4am.

”Yeah...but it is still better than

Living in the Territory (for our non-Aussies/Kiwis we are talking about some abo community in the NT)

Ryanair/Vueling/Wizzair/Vietjet

South Africa

Doing night freight in a Shorts or Metro out if Glasgow or Bankstown

Instructing 400 miles east of Perth

Qlink

bla bla bla”

...and lets not even talk about the majority of our pissweak HKG locals who just sit there, say nothing and let the Gweilos do all the industrial work. (Still better than HKA?!)

[Will IB Fayed]

FFS, why should non-union members get any info on negotiations. Discuss on the union site.

[raven11]

First of all, the SOs are not the majority...and secondly, even among their ranks a significant portion are smart enough to not vote in favour of a weak agreement that would deminish their future pay and benefits. Secondly, the Company made the silly error of pitching their last offer to only 51% of the membership, with no margin for error, and the vote for acceptance fell short to 47%. They should have pitched it to 70% to ensure a comfortable margin of victory. They didn’t and the past two years of industrial strife was the result. Thirdly, the GC is smart enough to not present a package to the membership that favors only one group of pilots. A fracture would be the outcome of doing something that dumb.

Any silly repeat of past negotiation posturing and obstinance by the Company should result in the AOA immediately walking away...We’ve reached the point where the Company needs to end the training ban. The ball is in their court.

[Natca]

All those 777 locals are waiting on the 787s at HKA to come over on short courses.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Two to three years to command. Might as well go for it at HKA. CX is dead.

[A3301FD]

Very simple - any concessions - vote NO.

[FlyingNun]

Oh dear... Oh dear...
O Days are still on aparantley.
Forget your social life, if you have one.
New contract coming out soon.
RP18? = RP15
Infact dream on and keep on Ranting

[betpump5]

Thirdly, the GC is smart enough to not present a package to the membership that favors only one group of pilots. A fracture would be the outcome of doing something that dumb.


Errmmm.....the last TA?

[positionalpor]

Company is playing with fire. By the end of 2018, it will be a mass exodus if RP and contract aren’t fix.
Peoples feel largely betrayed and many aren’t willing to put up with this circus anymore.

[controlledrest]

First of all, the SOs are not the majority...and secondly, even among their ranks a significant portion are smart enough to not vote in favour of a weak agreement that would deminish their future pay and benefits. Secondly, the Company made the silly error of pitching their last offer to only 51% of the membership, with no margin for error, and the vote for acceptance fell short to 47%. They should have pitched it to 70% to ensure a comfortable margin of victory. They didn’t and the past two years of industrial strife was the result. Thirdly, the GC is smart enough to not present a package to the membership that favors only one group of pilots. A fracture would be the outcome of doing something that dumb.

Any silly repeat of past negotiation posturing and obstinance by the Company should result in the AOA immediately walking away...We’ve reached the point where the Company needs to end the training ban. The ball is in their court.



Lets help the company out. No TA shall be accepted unless ≥ 70% of members vote yes. No more 50 + 1. The deal must get the approval of most of the pilots.

[OK4Wire]

Agreed.



(more characters)

[gofor]

First of all, the SOs are not the majority...and secondly, even among their ranks a significant portion are smart enough to not vote in favour of a weak agreement that would deminish their future pay and benefits......

Those on COS08 ARE in the significant majority...where it will count.

[Avinthenews]

O days must be abolished. They are free reserve.

​​​​​​Free reserve abolished

Proper G day compensation

"Roster disruption" abolished, it's your fault crew operations you pay for it not us!

[plainpilot11]

You all need to dream on. Most people have lost hope that any sort of meaningful changes will take place in these or any future negotiations. As such, pilots are leaving. That is what they think of the power of the "association." That it has none in fact. That is what they think of the possibility of the management to change. That it has no possibility to change. That is what they think of the future of this airline.

These would in fact all be nice additions, but in reality they only have their place in aviation in countries outside of the Asian market. Canada, US, Europe, Australia, yes, but here in HKG they will never happen, ever, and why Cathay will never again base pilots in any of these countries. Which again is why pilots are leaving CX, and the pace is only going to accelerate. As long as the money continues to roll into the coffers of the AOA unabated, whilst no inflationary adjustment is given, no pay increase is given, nothing is done but a few mild words about "solidarity", no mass resignations from the AOA, and the company is able to go a few more years without paying any inflationary adjustment, or a pay increase, why on earth would either of them want a fight?

[Liam Gallagher]

Plainpilot,

Sadly true. No leadership from either the union or company. Both seem to view the pilot body as a mass they can extract wealth from, in return for some management yuck-speak.

For those thinking/hoping resignation rates are generating leverage, perhaps a rethink is required. The latest company Pravda contained this piece of yuck-speak,

"Capacity rationalisation remained aggressive..."

In plain-english, that translates to shrinking the airline. When a pilot leaves, I'm sure there's a round of G&Ts on the 9th floor. If it's a pilot on expat terms, add a bottle of Bollinger.

Why shrink the airline? They appear to be after short term profits at the expense of long-term growth and have abandoned the idea of defending the airline's position against competitors. This adds weight to the argument that we are being prepared for sale.

As for the talks, the RP deal sounds like RP07 all over again and just a formalisation of how we are being rostered now and will be a "gap-filler" until CMP arrives. Nobody will actually get a better roster, perhaps worse (just ask the boys and girls over at KA enjoying the sodimiser:ouch:).

I am picking there will be a modest increase in HKPA to get the required votes, with the increase being funded by the expat's leaving and the non-payment (again) of 13th month if the required profits aren't there and if they think they can get away with it (and why wouldn't they?). There might be a promise of a payrise, but just a promise, however fleet transfer by seniority, 25 year housing, SHP, min credit day, RA65 won't even get a mention. All lost in the push to get a "deal" before the GC changeover in August.

Any LEP who thinks this will be a "win", doesn't know how to use a calculator.

Why the union is even participating in this nonsense is beyond me. All kind of depressing really.....

[Shep69]

I think it is a difficult situation because IMHO this guy quite accurately sums up the ‘ethics’ and methodology of those steering the ship

https://youtu.be/73OZncDEDks

[mngmt mole]

The AOA needs to clarify the RP offer. If it doesn’t address ALL of the issiues of comcern, then we need to throw it back and ramp up CC. Oh, amd then the company can address the other big elephants in the room as well. No peace until a proper contract is offered.

[spleener]

I think it is a difficult situation because IMHO this guy quite accurately sums up the ‘ethics’ and methodology of those steering the ship

https://youtu.be/73OZncDEDksOne Hundred Percent

[gofor]

Hong Kong Airlines will have their DEFO program for current Second Officers approved by CAD in the Q3/Q4 this year. I think you could expect an influx of SO's being poached. Good on HK Airlines for seeing potential there.

SO's, put in your applications so they have it on record for when they start interviews.

If HNA lasts that long - Why invest your future in an airline(company) that is hemorrhaging stock?

[mngmt mole]

HNA will do fine. There are several very deep pocket companies that are ready to buy out HNA if the opportunity arises. They are too big to fail.

[hyg]

If HNA lasts that long - Why invest your future in an airline(company) that is hemorrhaging stock?
It was on the local financial newspaper yesterday that HKA is going for another listing attempt....

[mr did]

So we are nearing the end of these negotiations and the "Company" in their latest newsletter have forewarned they will not spend any money fixing the mass exodus of pilots as it is "not fair to the other staff" (or their bonuses). The Swire modus operandi takes over yet again.

[morningcoffee]

HNA will do fine. There are several very deep pocket companies that are ready to buy out HNA if the opportunity arises. They are too big to fail.
I needed a laugh and that was it. Do you have any idea how indebted the HNA group is? Google them for this weeks haemorrhaging. To say they will do fine is utter garbage, their latest bond issue hit junk status, they've been denied investment opportunities in Australia and NZ because the respective governments doing due diligence view HNA as insolvent.
No one is stepping in, if anything they'll shrink down to where they were 10 years ago.

[Avinthenews]

So we are nearing the end of these negotiations and the "Company" in their latest newsletter have forewarned they will not spend any money fixing the mass exodus of pilots as it is "not fair to the other staff" (or their bonuses). The Swire modus operandi takes over yet again.

Oh, fair like 13 month they mean, now I understand.

[Bangaluru]

Can the AOA team make it clear that if they don’t have pilots the 25000 will follow the earlier 600 and find themselves not working for an airline. WTF do these negotiations have to do with the 25000?

[Flex88]

So we are nearing the end of these negotiations and the "Company" in their latest newsletter have forewarned they will not spend any money fixing the mass exodus of pilots as it is "not fair to the other staff" (or their bonuses). The Swire modus operandi takes over yet again.

Last DFO newsletter sounded to me like it was more or less all wrapped up and only a couple of details to iron out.
One last big push to lock in DFO's bonus before her pineapple dislodges and she uncomfortably moves on to sprinkle her Swire pixy dust on some other group of unsuspecting proletariats where, I'm sure, she will be as equally unqualified as she was as DFO.. Sad.

And before the rash of "Sexist" comments comes flooding out; I want to make my point totally clear. What I want is solid, qualified, highly experienced, vetted managers who got to where they are by MERIT not boot licking sycophants or Elite school grads and I don't give one flying piece of sh** was sex they are..

Clear Enough ??

[Cpt. Underpants]

Bravo, flex88. My feelings exactly.

[mr did]

Pants and 88, we have seen this before. What has been advertised so far is the resolution of things that cost nothing.

Now we are onto the money stuff: housing and pay. How likely do you think it would be for this current lot to actually fix the massive overstep on remuneration cuts?? We get to this point every, single, time.

Corporate culture change required to get this done from here.