What to do with DEFO who can't fly [Archive]

Flex88

24th May 2018, 03:43

The Jellyfish and his predecessor implemented "Flexistandards" so they can hire anyone and once here, you never get fired.
Even more sad, both these "leaders" were onboard with the firing of 600 but low cost flight crew who don't have the ability to properly carry out the duties of their position get to stay.
Maybe this is one of the DFO's "diversity" programs ?

#CXit

crwkunt roll

24th May 2018, 04:15

Maybe that's why she's been so quiet lately.

Flex88

24th May 2018, 05:16

DEFO onto 747. Couldn't fly two eng out for 528. What do you do?

STC recommended termination due to lack of fly ability. Company moved her to 777 - easier to fly, no need to handle 2 out on one wing.

Good to see standards are being upheld!

More than the 528 STC recommended stopping training, others as well. Think that through.. Welcome to the 777, the "flexistandards" charity fleet.

#CXit

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 05:33

Well, she can be certain of never getting a sector from me. Still need to know the initials, but will figure it out through the system regardless. Can't believe what is going on with this airline. And who in the training dept thought it would be a good idea to just transfer her to the 777 fleet? Will make for an interesting legal case if and when there was an incident regarding her. Best thing to do is make it clear that she and her 'skills' are probably best employed elsewhere. What a :mad: show this airline has become. Time to win...but getting a job with a sane and stable carrier. Cxit.

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 05:35

Oh, and this little link regarding Jet2 is interesting. Seems like a nice carrier, which is obviously growing quickly. Point 11 however reminds me that whoever that manager was in charge of that marketing program, obviously has the morals (!) to get a job at CX.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/jet2-facts-figures-history/

Flex88

24th May 2018, 06:11

BizJetJockey

24th May 2018, 06:30

It's now got to the point that RQ DEFOs with lower seniority than some SOs are requesting to be paired with TT SOs instead of cadet JFOs as they don't feel confident enough should a situation arise!! Capts' enjoy your rest confident in the knowledge that your crew will act accordingly!! Just don't tell the passengers! 😮

sjimmy

24th May 2018, 07:36

Sadly not an isolated case.
Standards have dropped and are dropping faster then a toolkit.
The lack of basic skills is astounding.

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 07:54

Have had to input on controls 5 times the first 4 months of this year on FO landings (with still a heavy landing resulting). Not rhetoric, but fact. Ten years ago, maybe twice a year max. The facts of what is going on in the operation are what they are, and they don't make for pretty reading. Of course, the management will continue to pretend that nothing has changed. Prepare for the front page of the SCMP sometime in the next decade. Inevitable.

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 07:55

Oh, and how does the company justify and rationalize a FO who is so tiny she can't manipulate the controls fully? Just asking... (and there is more than one fyi).

backtothegrindstone

24th May 2018, 08:28

DEFO onto 747. Couldn't fly two eng out for 528. What do you do?

STC recommended termination due to lack of fly ability. Company moved her to 777 - easier to fly, no need to handle 2 out on one wing.

Good to see standards are being upheld!

what a joke this airline is.
My question to all captains out there is how do you sleep in the bunk when you know you have inexperience up at the Controls?

Capatins need to wake up! You in charge of this ship.
Hope that trainer has resigned or is his life to cushy.

You all bring it on yourself.

As for the training department. What a 1234 up.
Useless good for nothing

#CXit

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 10:49

backtothegrindstone

24th May 2018, 12:17

BTTGS. You are the joke. A wannabe who thinks his opinion has any validity, other than emanating the stench of management input. Run along now, your mommy is calling. (and please, sort out the spelling and grammar, thank you)

ha ha ha shame all you can do is attack my spelling and age. That’s cute.
My vote goes against you! Easy the company just got a YES. Easy

backtothegrindstone

24th May 2018, 12:51

Ok grindstone I understand you are angry but why the F**K would you ever give this company anything. I am in the same position as you but I will never, ever during the time that I have left here will ever help the company or vote favorably towards ANY agreement. This company can burn for all I care, wouldn't piss on the fire to put it out.

The only people to blame for delayed upgrades are the slimy c***s on the 3rd floor and upwards. Not your fellow crew.

So Capt that are taking the TC positions as we speak are not to blame ?
please you are naive to think that anyone in this airline cares about the fellow Crew they fly with ? It proves. Everyone f12kibg everyone over for rest etc. It’s sicking.
People still taking G day flights - screwing there fellow crew mates.

Open your eyes.....
Take what you can from this company and leave. Vote for what is best for you. Cause we all know the noise ARAPA guys make when it’s housing on the chopping block. Any noise for SO help “fellow crew members” ?
Anyone gonna complain about this DEFO that is now on the 777 ?

RightO

gulliBell

24th May 2018, 13:28

On the bright side, the Freighter pilots now have a proven way onto the Pax fleet.

I snorted on my evening coffee when I read that....the hilarity was more than I could bare.

gulliBell

24th May 2018, 13:55

DEFO onto 747. Couldn't fly two eng out for 528. What do you do?

STC recommended termination due to lack of fly ability. Company moved her to 777 - easier to fly, no need to handle 2 out on one wing.

Please excuse my ignorance on this aspect, am I to assume a 747 with no engines working under one wing is fundamentally different in the pilot skill context to a 777 with no engine working under one wing?

mngmt mole

24th May 2018, 16:01

As someone who has flown both, essentially no difference, thereby further highlighting the absurdity of CX's "solution" to the problem with said DEFO. Of course, our management have continued to insist that the CX of today (hundreds of low time pilots, limited experience, ballet dancers and LGBT's) is JUST the same as the CX of old, which hired only very experienced FO's, who had proven their abilities, either in the civil aviation world or the western militaries. As you can see, there couldn't possibly be any lowering of standards. :rolleyes:

Meikleour

24th May 2018, 16:07

gulliBell: It sure is! Have you not heard of VMCA2 considerations?

Threethirty

24th May 2018, 17:15

VMCA2 considerations yes but that would mean only that takeoff speeds and landing speeds would be higher than a 777, negating the argument anyway.

Flex88

24th May 2018, 18:39

Last year a DEFO got demoted to SO due to performance.

Another 777 conversion a couple hundred numbers out of seniority? Nooo, not in Cathay.

This slide started many years ago with the "non pilot" DFO and has continued since. The Jellyfish will make NO changes - cheap pilots rule !
Now, the only persons with ANY flight crew experience in the "People" dept (flight crew selection) have quit in disgust. The people selecting flight crew now are the same as those who interview and select clerks.
The whole experience / standards expectations thing really died when they put AW in charge and the then GMF selected the Dancing Buffoon to be in charge of the "young" "impressionable" "innocent" cadets in Adelaide.

#CXit

crwkunt roll

25th May 2018, 00:40

Oh, and how does the company justify and rationalize a FO who is so tiny she can't manipulate the controls fully?
Because daddy stomped his feet.

Well, she can be certain of never getting a sector from me.
If you were a trainer Mr. Mole, and that's a big IF , unfortunately you'd have to, even though it went against all your principles, after them even being allowed to be employed over S/O's in the first place.

arse

25th May 2018, 01:13

Was the DEFO from the start of the thread moved to the 777 as a FO or a SO? The former would seem blantantly ridiculous, but the later might be workable. A few years of development as a SO under the mentoring training department might work. Oh, wait! What?

gulliBell

25th May 2018, 03:06

Come on guys, that's too much coffee snorting for me for one day!

Zapp_Brannigan

25th May 2018, 03:35

She's not the first one.
A few years ago, a cadet couldn't fly the 747 and was sent to the airbus.

I hope she'll develop flying skills in case she's got to upgrade on another fleet.
I don't know why, but I think the opposite could happen. I must admit my flying skills are not as good as when I was fresh out of school.

It makes one wonder. How do they manage to graduate from flight school? What's the failure rate in Adelaide? Is the initial selection magically the best in the world and they only select skilled candidates?

At least in KA, they finally fired the cadet who had a 3G landing, and with whom the training captains had to take controls on every landing.

There's no excuse to have a DEFO who can't fly.

backtothegrindstone

25th May 2018, 03:37

She's not the first one.
A few years ago, a cadet couldn't fly the 747 and was sent to the airbus.

I hope she'll develop flying skills in case she's got to upgrade on another fleet.
I don't know why, but I think the opposite could happen. I must admit my flying skills are not as good as when I was fresh out of school.

It makes one wonder. How do they manage to graduate from flight school? What'sthe failure rate in Adelaide? Is the initial selection magically the best in the world and they only select skilled candidates?

At least in KA, they finally fired the cadet who had a 3G landing, and with whom the training captains had to take controls on every landing.

There's no excuse to have a DEFO who can't fly.

what about the SO’s that can fly ?? And have experience???
CXit

Captain Dart

25th May 2018, 04:55

what about the SO’s that can fly ?? And have experience???
CXit

What about them? They took the decision to join CX as SOs. In that case, they will have to suck it up until they ace their eventual upgrades, should they not head off in the meantime to another airline.

Obvious really.

Meikleour

25th May 2018, 08:02

Threethirty: Unless the handling qualities of the -400/-8 are very much improved from the -200/-300 then the final approach flown from below Vmca2 to touchdown was much more challenging than a stabilised 1-eng inop. final approach on a twin. ( however I have only got VC9,B707,B747,A340 experience to compare to B737,A330,A320 ) Incidently the VC9 and B707 2-eng. inop. training used to be done on the real aircraft so simulator fidelity could be discounted. A point that should be borne in mind since these days precious few airline pilots will be given this rather "dubious" pleasure!

shortly2

25th May 2018, 08:20

gulliBell

25th May 2018, 08:27

...Incidently the VC9 and B707 2-eng. inop. training used to be done on the real aircraft so simulator fidelity could be discounted...

The RAAF used to do double-engine asymmetric in B707. That is, until they dropped one in the sea when doing so and killing everyone on-board. Save that stuff for the sim, however realistic or otherwise it might be.

shortly2

25th May 2018, 08:34

gullibell, you are like my son - you have opinions on issues of which you have very limited knowledge. That tragedy off Sale was exactly that, a tragedy and it had been waiting to happen for a while. If you are really interested in the facts PM me.

gulliBell

25th May 2018, 08:36

..Anyone posting that a single engine approach in a 777 equates in any way to 2 engine inop approach in a Jumbo is a joker.

I posed the question originally because I didn't know the answer. But I would have thought all the elements viz the comprehension of the relevant ECL, the adherence to the target numbers, the assimilation of the maneuver, and the physical dexterity required for manipulation of controls, would be similar across both platforms. And the opinion of somebody who has flown both I don't count as a joker.

We have the same issue in the helicopter world. Young, ambitious, light weights usually of female gender who don't have the physical strength to fly an aircraft without hydraulic assistance when they should be able to. We had one in HK, she was scrubbed. There really can be no alternative if the pilot can't competently handle all the required maneuvers.

gulliBell

25th May 2018, 08:39

gullibell, you are like my son - you have opinions on issues of which you have very limited knowledge...

Post #35 isn't an opinion, it is simply stating a fact. Stated as per iterated on the 6pm news on the day it happened.

betpump5

25th May 2018, 09:13

With interest, I just read the summary report on the crash that you guys are talking about and have copied and pasted:

The Board noted there were deficiencies in the acquisition and documentation of 707 operational knowledge within the RAAF combined with the absence of effective mechanisms to prevent the erosion of operational knowledge at a time when large numbers of pilots were resigning from the air force.

Tick tock tick tock...

arse

25th May 2018, 09:37

Serious thread drift. I'm sure there is a dedicated thread elsewhere to discuss that incident.

The only defence for the said individual at the source of this thread might be a lack of training. However, ... I very much doubt that the STC's decision came down to only the two engine out work?

Whenever I read that our training department is exceptional, ... I think self-aggrandising, delusional propaganda.

Meikleour

25th May 2018, 09:48

Xwindldg

25th May 2018, 10:13

I'm calling a fake news alert here. If you're saying it's the instagram chick then you're wrong according to her roster.

Exit Strategy

25th May 2018, 11:48

Betpump5: You have hit the nail on the head! Knowing some of the people involved at the time there was definitely a serious "dilution of expertise" going on when the RAAF aquired the aircraft from Qantas.

Not quite correct, the dilution of experience occurred about 10 years later when QF put up their maximum recruitment age, not when they acquired the aircraft in '79.
In addition, double asymmetric on the aircraft was just fine and crews were trained to deal with that. The issue in that very sad event was that it was combined with a loss of rudder boost (triple failure outside of the aircraft certification). The result of this combination of failures is described in "Handling the Big Jets" written in 1967 with exactly the same result.

canthelpit

25th May 2018, 11:53

I think it is unfair to be talking about an individual who has had training issues, it’s all speculation as to why the CTL was unsuccessful.
I know you all want the company to burn to the ground but don’t use an individual as ammunition against the company, that’s one of the reasons Australia had a royal commission into union tactics and bullying.

Ready to get sh$t canned by geniuses with big words now!

Natca

25th May 2018, 12:01

Glad we are in Hong Kong not stralia mate. No rules on that type of stuff in this land.

Meikleour

25th May 2018, 12:23

Exit Strategy: What I was referring to was the fact that a large percentage of the early RAAF B707 crew all joined CX in the early 80s (ie. 1984 -86 ) Hence with the turnover of crews then "old lessons" were forgotten/overlooked.

Bo Wing

25th May 2018, 12:41

South African CAA has just grounded regional airline, SA Express

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/companies/sa-express-has-been-grounded-over-serious-safety-risks-15142702

CX couldn't get the SAA pilots to come but they might well have their pick, if SA Express doesn't get their AOC back quickly. Never fails to amaze me how this company always manages to "pull a rabbit out of a hat" and is willing to trade in someone's misfortune in the process! :sad:

cxorcist

25th May 2018, 13:20

Flex88

25th May 2018, 13:39

From Bowing’s article, last paragraph...

“If you have something dysfunctional and (you) try to sell it, you will get little for it. The real challenge is putting the right people in the right places both on boards and management teams, and having the right oversight,” he said.

As CX/Swire knows all too well!!

Yes, yes, the "right management" in the right place. Blah, blah blah - read the latest FOP "Leadership" appointments. The jokes on us... JFC

#CXit

Airbubba

25th May 2018, 16:30

Perhaps Cathay is moving to 'level the playing ground'.

In America over the past three decades a push to embrace a broader hiring demographic (i.e. anybody but a straight white male) has led to changes in recruitment and training standards.

Technical exams have largely been eliminated since some of the most desirable demographics as a group do poorly on them.

Remedial training programs have been put in place to assist those who have difficulty meeting the minimum standards.

Every major airline seems to have a small group of 'frequent flyers at the training academy'. The traditional method of eventually weeding out the folks who could never pass a checkride and drained expensive training resources was to have the feds observe and pull their ticket. However, a few lawsuits have promoted a system where some folks are given nearly endless training opportunities.

And you have the poster child phenomenon where 'diverse' pilots are featured prominently in advertising and media coverage.

For example:

https://about.van.fedex.com/blog/earning-her-wings/

FedEx hires first African-American woman pilot abc7ny.com (http://abc7ny.com/careers/fedex-hires-first-african-american-woman-pilot/3109122/)

And 'milestones' are celebrated:

All Black Female Flight Crew Makes History on Alaska Airlines Travel + Leisure (http://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/first-black-female-flight-crew-alaska-airlines)

1st African-American, all-female flight crew honored for Black History Month - WKRN (http://www.wkrn.com/news/1st-african-american-all-female-flight-crew-honored-for-black-history-month/1091475544)

Southwest Just Celebrated an All-female, 'Unmanned' Flight Crew Travel + Leisure (http://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/southwest-first-all-female-flight-crew)

sjimmy

26th May 2018, 16:57

Problem CX has now,
What if somebody else fails? If terminated he/She Will have a field day in court since CX moved a DEFO sideways, No chance to weed out the dross.

Flex88

27th May 2018, 00:21

Problem CX has now,
What if somebody else fails? If terminated he/She Will have a field day in court since CX moved a DEFO sideways, No change to weed out the dross.

Same people passed a Captain following vociferous and exasperating reports from trainers only to have same crew member demoted 1 or 2 years later following string of incidents. Sh** luck really that none of the incidents were very serious.

Everybody wins here and everybody gets at trophy. The #AltLeft liberals have arrived. Too hard (and/or expensive) just dumb the whole system down to fit the tanking experience levels. Walang Problema :D

Apple Tree Yard

27th May 2018, 01:34

Or you could have ended up with a pathological, corrupt, cynical woman who heads the ultimate political crime family. An heir to the previous admin which corrupted the highest levels of power at all levels. Yes, that would have been soooo much better.

controlledrest

27th May 2018, 21:51

You people suck. Leave the lass alone. She is keen and a pleasant person. Whether or not she should be here is a quite a few pay grades above the likes of you and me. I wish her the best in her CV. I would have sent her to an even pussier aircraft, the French one perhaps. Anyone posting that a single engine approach in a 777 equates in any way to 2 engine inop approach in a Jumbo is a joker.

It is not about her as a person. This is about a reasonable expectation from the travelling public that the pilots are able to save their arses when things go wrong. The STCs are bestowed their privileges from HKCAD, they have a responsibility to set standards and protect the traveling public. It is past time they made a stand. Stomping their feet and writing a letter to the DFO did little more than increase their culpability when a hull is lost with all on board.

crwkunt roll

28th May 2018, 04:06

All the more reason for the STC to quit his training position. I hope he has after this show of respect for his position.

The FUB

28th May 2018, 07:16

Mate most STCs don't care, they realize that are no failures at cx anymore, the more LIKES, the shorter or easier the course. At least when the BOI looks at it at least attention was drawn.

Apple Tree Yard

28th May 2018, 09:54

My post, #53 was in response to a post previous that denigrated Trump. The coward that posted it has now deleted it. Pathetic. I don't mind you having a different political position than me, but at least have enough integrity to support your position.

Captain Dart

28th May 2018, 10:18

Yes, a bit bizarre. The whole tenor of Post 52 was changed by 180 degrees, making my response a non sequiteur, so I deleted it. Weird.

My response equated Godwin’s Law with irrelevantly invoking Trump contributing to the standards problems of a Hong Kong airline. The reference to Trump had been removed.

Flex88

2nd Jun 2018, 04:29

This train has been coming for some years and before any of the snowflakes start boiling over - it has NOTHING to do with ethnicity..

Watch this clip and if it does not ring any bells re the pilot group, you need to read more newspapers and stop getting your news from Google and Facebook.
We are there - ask the Pilot Recruiters who have recently all resigned.

Is the FAA sacrificing your safety for diversity? | On Air Videos | Fox News (http://video.foxnews.com/v/5792622329001)

betpump5

2nd Jun 2018, 14:33

I read your link - saw Fox News at the end. Glad I did.

Then I moved right along.

raven11

2nd Jun 2018, 15:01

I read your link - saw Fox News at the end. Glad I did.

Then I moved right along.

To a safe space...with coloring books, crayons, and teddy bears....

cxorcist

2nd Jun 2018, 16:33

To a safe space...with coloring books, crayons, and teddy bears....

Classic Raven! Thanks for the laugh before I sign off for the night. Smiling as I type...

Skipname

2nd Jun 2018, 21:13

I read your link - saw Fox News at the end. Glad I did.

Then I moved right along.

Why does it matter where the information comes from as long as it's accurate?

Did you watch the video in the link? I think you should, and IF the piece presented there is true ( I use the word "IF" because I don't trust the media) it should make your skin crawl at the level of idiocracy displayed.

Freehills

3rd Jun 2018, 07:43

Eh - from the clip looks like the questionnaire isn't biased on race/ gender etc, it is biasing against geeks & aviation geeks. I.e. being good at high school sports (teamwork, thinking & reacting under pressure) probably is a good thing vs being good at chemistry. More points for not having worked before - bias to fresh graduates for ab intitio training. Looks more aimed at getting a more diverse group of personalities to the next rounds rather than introverted nerds/ people who washed out of being a pilot.

As long as the next rounds are as rigorous as before, it won't impact end safety I would think .

Freehills

3rd Jun 2018, 08:57

https://www.newsday.com/news/nation/faa-s-bid-to-expand-air-traffic-hiring-pool-hits-turbulence-1.11725723

Older story. Didn't realise that US had college degrees for ATC, and before this FAA pretty much only took them or military. This looks to be bringing it more in line with Europe or Australia (psychometric test at the start, no need to have studied ATC as a degree) So basically the people who wnt to college to study ATC and now find that it doesn't give them an advantage over people who did non-ATC related degrees are the ones sueing. Snowflakes indeed!

Be interesting to know if the "CTI" colleges are supporting the lawsuit - they do say enrollment is dropping.

Of course all systems are different, but this does look a good idea. Why limit your pool of applicants to only those who had done an ATC degree/ military when yiu need to expand hiring? Seems silly to put a two-three year gate at the start.

oriental flyer

3rd Jun 2018, 19:38

Some advice for the STC ‘s and trainers that dealt with this individual . Download and keep your training reports on file , because if something goes wrong the CAD will investigate and I suspect that your reports will be magically sanitised . You may well need the originals at an investigation inquiry .
This transfer from one type to another has been going on for some time now . Can’t fly one type , try another ,usually from the 747 to the Bus , unless of course the individual had upset someone in the office in which case it was sayonara
Having flown both Boeing types, a two engine approach on the jumbo is more challenging than an engine inop approach on the 777 but neither is beyond the capabilities of any good pilot. Some are better than others as in everything in life

cLeArIcE

4th Jun 2018, 22:34

This thread made me think about a conversation from a few weeks ago.
I had the pleasure of catching up with a group of old friends from over the years. We had all trained or worked together in some capacity. After a few beers, we started reminiscing about funny stories and some individuals that we knew were never going to "make it" in aviation.
Some were fired for doing incredibly dumb things, some could never pass the exams or flight tests and then there were the ones you wouldn't trust to fly a kite.

What we found incredible was that nearly half of these individuals have been employed by cx as SO's in the last 12 months.

A few in in the group admitted applying to cx simply as a back up to the the other 10 back up plans. We all agreed that hell would need to to freeze over for us to leave our current airlines (mix of LCCS, regionals and mainline) to go to cx. It was all a bit funny until I realised it wasn't.
When I started flying (early 2000s) I would have loved to work for cx. We looked at our friends that made it into cx with envy. We knew that they were the best. Now many of those friends are back working with us. Amazing how things can change in 15 years. I hope it changes back one day.

Australopithecus

4th Jun 2018, 22:57

Oh sure...rub it in why don’t you.

cLeArIcE

4th Jun 2018, 23:14

Oh sure...rub it in why don’t you.
Not my intention at all Austral. I genuinely feel for you guys and I hope things get back to what they used to be.
There was also (perhaps) a subtle hint for the cx skippers in my post. If I Was the one in the bunk over the ITCZ at night, I wouldnt sleep too easy.

mngmt mole

4th Jun 2018, 23:39

Not my intention at all Austral. I genuinely feel for you guys and I hope things get back to what they used to be.
There was also (perhaps) a subtle hint for the cx skippers in my post. If I Was the one in the bunk over the ITCZ at night, I wouldnt sleep too easy.

Believe me, few of us do.

Scoreboard

5th Jun 2018, 00:17

I just fall asleep fatigued.....

raven11

5th Jun 2018, 01:03

I agree with Scoreboard...as much as you don’t want to, you simply have to leave the cockpit and rest at some point. Everyone with a sentient brain knows there is a problem with experience levels in the cockpit, but feel constrained from voicing it to the decision makers.

I believe that this has all come to pass due in large part to the outcome of how thoroughly the Company destroyed the union after the firing of 49 pilots. This nuclear strike ended the industrial standoff in 2001 and left the field wide open. That action destroyed the union and resulted in no resistance to a constant stream of concessions and lowering of hiring standards, that continued unabated to this day. People and organizations require check and balance. The non-payment of the traditional 13th month bonus, which was paid to all the other flying staff in Cathay and Dragon...just not to Cathay pilot’s, was the final straw. The four year contract compliance campaign and the training ban have finally produced the leverage required. For the time being, check and balance has returned.

mngmt mole

5th Jun 2018, 05:20

It's quite predictable that an organization whose management is based on arrogance and intimidation will eventually overstep the "line". In this case, that moment arrived this past CNY when CX paid a full 13th month salary to all employees, other than the pilots (a percentage to FO's and SO's, and NOTHING to Captains). Additionally, they even granted a pay raise to all the other staff as well. Speaking for myself, that was the moment that the disrespect, contempt and malice that CX management feel towards me became too much to tolerate.

The result is an entire pilot workforce that is now actively working against the company's long term interests. In particular, I see a deliberate use of fuel to send a "message" to our management that we won't be treated in such an abusive fashion again (in my case the cost has already reached more than twice the amount that CX stole from me). A quiet talk with any number of my colleagues demonstrates a deep commitment to making sure that message is sent, and will continue to be so until such a time that there is firm evidence of a positive change of management attitude. I suspect that many millions of $$ more will need to be bled off the bottom line before those in power get the message. And they will get the message, if not through the action just mentioned, then by the ever increasing rate of resignation.

mngmt mole

5th Jun 2018, 05:30

An interesting observation: since February (when I first started asking the question), I have operated 9 long haul flights and 17 short haul. A total of 49 pilots that I have flown with (some long haul had different crew outbound/inbound). Of those 49, 33 indicated that they are planning on leaving in the near term. Of those 33, 25 had either already interviewed or had an interview date. Of the 49, each one knew of at least 1-4 persons who were also either interviewing or applying. Extrapolate those numbers over the entire pilot body and only a fool (CX management) would pretend there isn't a crisis approaching for this airline. Oh, and it's only the beginning of June...

Apple Tree Yard

5th Jun 2018, 16:32

MM, I have had a very similar experience with my questioning of crew that I have been operating with. It is comical to think (and somewhat tragic) that members of our management are so blinded to the destruction they have caused that the Titanic is now sinking, and they are interviewing dockside bands to greet her in NY. In our case, the Titanic will sink without any crew, as they will all have long since departed.