Blue and Royals' frockcoat

[tartare]

Gents,
a chap was watching the nuptials and was looking at the lads' uniforms.
A Blues and Royals frock coat, made of doeskin (interesting) by Savile Row's Dege & Skinner.
The ornamental bit down the front looked very unusual however, sort of like a series of tuxedo like flaps (forgive my ignorance).
Does any one know what the story is behind those?
I've searched t'interweb with not much luck - somewhere it's referred to as braiding - but that doesn't sound right.
Probably a question for ARRSE - but I thought some of you might know...

[The Oberon]

I asked exactly the same question on ARRSE and apart from the usual abuse got some information about the coat but nothing about the use or significance of the braids.

I also got this. The night the nurses did turn up!!

[teeteringhead]

Not sure about "braiding", is it what they call "frogging"?

[BA Bluntie]

The 'tassels' are in fact olivets which are the vestiges of the former "fasteners" for the frock coat. In the original practice the olivet would be fastened with a toggle.

Doeskin in this context is actually a woven fabric made from 100% Merino wool, tightly milled, in a twill weave, with a face finish. The term ‘Doeskin’ originated from the similar appearance and feel of the fabric to the skin of a female deer.

The whole ensemble is carried through from the service dress of the heavy cavalry regiments the were amalgamated in1969 to form RHG/D and originated with the Hussars who morphed into Dragoon Guards.

[Wander00]

So one staff officer can leapfrog over another staff officer's back ........

[Danny42C]

"A Frog he would a-wooing go ?"

[langleybaston]

The frock coat [coat as opposed to the frock, which was/ is an undress loose fitting shorter jacket] is in fact [and I believe always was] an UNDRESS garment: not worn on formal parades, but in barracks and as a distinguishing garment for executive officers in the course of their duties. As an example, the adjutant inspecting a Guard mounting before dismissal to Duties. Thus neither Full Dress nor Service Dress.
I am not an expert on officers' finery, but the 1900 Dress Regulations specify a blue frock coat, embellished regimentally but essentially as seen at the wedding, for heavy cavalry, General Officers and staff appointments, most Corps and departments [but not RA, and only regimental staff for RE], and not infantry except Foot Guards. With the abandonment of full dress almost across the board in 1914 and never reinstated I am guessing that such very expensive items either became optional or were not required except by the Household Division and other grandees.

I have in my collection officer groups posed 1900 - 1914 when all present were in the frock coat ........ even in India, dare I add. There has always been a permission/ requirement to wear dress and clothing until unfit for purpose, or while stocks last.

The media do not seem to have picked up that the Princes were indeed in undress ............ as near an informal family occasion as Royalty gets if exposed to public gaze.
By contrast the Duke of Cambridge's thrash was a full state bunfight, hence Home Service Dress/ Full Dress.

[teeteringhead]

The media do not seem to have picked up that the Princes were indeed in undress ............ as near an informal family occasion as Royalty gets if exposed to public gaze. Which also accounts for the "no swords or medals" routine.

[RedhillPhil]

Which also accounts for the "no swords or medals" routine.

Not that anyone in the meeja would know.

[MPN11]

Excellent, langleybaston ... we are well informed, especially about the nuances.
I did wonder about the lack of medals.
Wooly Pully or No.1 was much simpler!! ;)

[charliegolf]

Why was there a slight difference in the rank insignia. Billy has a little extra gold (EIIR?) on his shoulder.

CG

[langleybaston]

Excellent, langleybaston ... we are well informed, especially about the nuances.

Wooly Pully or No.1 was much simpler!! ;)



Thank you, but my British military nollidge runs thus:

RN: virtually zilch except I do know about 21st October.

Army: rather a lot 1800 to 1914, a lot more 1914-1918, and not much after that ...............

RAF: learned on the job, not necessarily only the good things .

[langleybaston]

Why was there a slight difference in the rank insignia. Billy has a little extra gold (EIIR?) on his shoulder.

CG

ADC to Her Majesty.

[charliegolf]

You won't believe me, but I thought so!:ok:

CG

[MPN11]

Thus the aguilettes for Prince William

HRH Harry might get them as Hon Air Cdre Honington, though, along with the EIIR shoulder insignia. After all, it looks sooooo much better ;)

[cafesolo]

The significance of aiguillettes is that the wearer has something with which to tie up his master's horse,seemingly the first duty of an ADC ?

Cafesolo
Age: still 83

[Tankertrashnav]

A late friend of mine was an officer in the Welsh Guards. He told me that being Officer of the Day, or Orderly Officer or whatever they call it involved several changes of uniform throughout the day, one of which was into the frock coat for the evening, and woe betide any young officer who was in the wrong uniform for the time of day. He also told me that when he was first commissioned he had to go to a number of uniform fittings, on each occasion accompanied by the adjutant. His job was to stand there and shut up while the adjutant discussed any minor alterations required with the tailor. He didnt even get the bill - by convention that was passed directly to his father- just as well it represented at least a year's service pay - hence the need for a private income in the guards and similar "smart" cavalry regiments.

[MPN11]

The significance of aiguillettes is that the wearer has something with which to tie up his master's horse,seemingly the first duty of an ADC ?

Cafesolo
Age: still 83
The OH, a former ADC, confirms that. Although she never needed to us the pointy bits to secure her Master’s horse, which is also the reason for them ... i.e. hobbling them, temporarily.

[MPN11]

TTN ... thanks for that aside! You have/had posh friends. All mine were either ATCOs or Aircrew :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Indeed - I first met him we were sitting together on a trooping flight to HK in 1968. When I met him in my shop about 30 years later it was several months before each remembered who the other one was, He had a great sense of humour, and back in civilian life he reverted to the scruffy style of dress often found among those who came from "old money"

[pr00ne]

...and the other Staff Officer jumped right over the other Staff Officer's back.

[NutLoose]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/mens-style/prince-harrys-wedding-outfit/


i bet it was rather warm to wear on a hot day.

[jindabyne]

What a waste of bandwith.

The man looked splendid, and was entitled to wear what he did. END of!

[Union Jack]

Personal ADC to Her Majesty.

Fixed that for you, Sir, if I may be so bold.....

Jack

[tartare]

Thank you gentlemen - very interesting - and questions answered.

[MPN11]

The badge on his left chest is the Pilots’ Wings, a nod to his time serving in the Army Air Corps flying Apache helicopters.

Oh, dear. No wonder I stopped buying the DT! :(

[tmmorris]

The OH, a former ADC, confirms that. Although she never needed to us the pointy bits to secure her Master’s horse, which is also the reason for them ... i.e. hobbling them, temporarily.

interesting theory, but it doesn’t figure in the Wikipedia article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiguillette

[NutLoose]

MPN11 you missed the other pearl from the DT

That the Prince wore ribbons instead of an aiguillette is significant; ribbons are garnered from work he has done rather than titles given to him in an honorary capacity.

I also wouldn't call the gold and diamond jubilee medals as awarded for work done, simply awarded because Gran is still alive.

[Tankertrashnav]

I was told that they derive from the prickers used to clear the powder holes on the top of breech loading cannon, but the Wiki article doesnt mention that theory.

Who knew that the reinforcement around the end of a shoelace is also called an aglet (or aiglet) ? Thanks Wiki!

[langleybaston]

What a waste of bandwith.

The man looked splendid, and was entitled to wear what he did. END of!

Clearly not.