Flying to Europe in small plane, avoiding visas

[Jikuda]

Hi,
I had this crazy idea that I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia. (another options are the Carrabien like Nevis, St. Kitts

Questions:
Is it even possible?
how long would it take?
how many times would we have to refuse in a typical small 1 prop plane?
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?

Appreciations for your reply

PS: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?

[Crazy Voyager]

There are a few guys who have done similar things on youtube if you want to have a look. It is no small undertaking though.

It is possible.
Would take several days, and might take days longer than planned if weather is bad. If the weather is really bad you might end up pushing the flight forward for weeks.
Depends on what you fly, but most have a range of a few hours. I have not done any actual checking but I would guess you should count on stops on Greenland, Iceland, UK (probably two stops) and then another few stops in west/central europe.
Yes you need to have visa (or other appropriate document depending on your nationality and circumstances) and passport and clear immigration and customs (you really didn't think there is no border check just because you don't arrive on a commercial flight? Right?).

As a start maybe look at this trip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Uf-ynoDUE

[Crash one]

No problem, any single engine prop would do that on a full tank. No visas needed while you are flying over water.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Just for a beginning: you may have observed that Yugoslavia has ceased to exist. I am afraid you have a lot more preparation to do.

Skipping several steps of criticism, my bottom line is that, while crossing the Atlantic in a SEP is not entirely excluded - it has been done indeed, many times - it is a much more complicated story than you seem to realise. And certainly it will be one of the minor hassles to obtain the required visa's in your passport and to show them when required.

Some points not mentioned yet:
* survival equipment. To be even marginally safe you need to carry a raft, and to wear lifejackets. Not just carry lifejackets, wear them! All the time!
* comm's equipment. Things seem to have been changing, but there used to be a time HF radio was needed.
* IFR rating. I understand it is almost mandatory, though there have been exceptions.
* return flight. The usual weather will give you a tailwind on your outbound, conversely a headwind when returning home. This gets worse as you fly higher, which you want to do to limit the risks of ditching.
* &c &c &c

And what might you mean by "how many times would we have to refuse" ? Looks like a typo, perhaps, I can make nothing of it.

[M-ONGO]

Hi,
I had this crazy idea that I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia. (another options are the Carrabien like Nevis, St. Kitts

Questions:
Is it even possible?
how long would it take?
how many times would we have to refuse in a typical small 1 prop plane?
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?

Appreciations for your reply

PS: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?

It would also be a very expensive undertaking.

There are are a few problems here, not least the aircraft and pilot would need to be on an AOC or American equivalent. No way would they have approval for what amounts to taking a fare paying passenger across the pond in a single prop. This equates to a commercial flight. If you owned the aircraft, then that’s different.

I would personally refuse to take anyone who refuses to get out, show passport and visas etc. You appear to have something to hide. Another thing, you would have to stop in Canada. Canpass would/should already have your details and know who you are. Iceland will check you, for sure. The U.K, certainly.

In a small single (even twin) this would take days. Obviously, you would need to stay overnight at least three nights, maybe more. Then there is the weather...

You are are aware that Yugoslavia is no longer a country, I take it?

[ExXB]

A US citizen shouldn’t require a visa for Canada, Denmark (Greenland). Iceland, the EU (including Slovenia and Croatia). Likely no document check after an intra-Schengen flight - but possible.

[cats_five]

<snip>
* survival equipment. To be even marginally safe you need to carry a raft, and to wear lifejackets. Not just carry lifejackets, wear them! All the time!
<snip>.

Immersion suit always worn, as well as the lifejacket. The north Atlantic is always cold, time to death in water at 10C is 1-3 hours without one.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Also, your concept of a typical small 1 prop plane is far too vague. In a PA24 it would be quite feasible - if you could manage to lay hold on one - and indeed has been done repeatedly. In a Rotax-powered LSA or such it still isn't impossible, but it does need a lot more budget/time/headstrength/patience. Many levels in between...

[3wheels]

Hi,
I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia.
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?


S: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?

Why the avoidance of refuelling... Why the desperation to avoid showing visas/passports.

Very suspicious indeed from a first poster. Best remain unanswered.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I share that concern, @3W, but we must concede T/S is from a country very little aware of the outside world, generally. There might be a bad conscience indeed, but sheer ignorance could be another explanation, it is not uncommon at all in them US of A. We should not discourage T/S from looking abroad! but neither should the multiple issues be underestimated.

[Silvaire1]

Jan, do you consider yourself knowledgable about Americans based on your travels in the US? When was was the last time you were in the US? Could it it be somebody else is ignorant of the world ouside his own? Give it some thought.

FWIW my guess would be that the OP is a child engaging in a thought exercise.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That, or maybe a writer researching a book. We've had a few on here over the years - some of the conversations can be quite entertaining.

G

[India Four Two]

... from a country very little aware of the outside world, generally.

Many years ago, I flew from Houston to Cancun. While standing in the sunshine ( no bridges in those days ) waiting to pass through immigration, one of my fellow passengers became irritated with the wait. He didn’t realize that Cancun was in a foreign country.

[Silvaire1]

Ask somebody in Rome to name 10 US states from memory, and see how they do... I did, at a party at which I was the only non-local. Not one person there could do it. If you can, I’d say you aren’t the average European.

Average Americans in my experience have travelled more than the average European and have broader worldwide experience. There are more fluent Spanish speakers in the US than in Spain, for example. What they don’t know as much about as Europeans is that little introspective corner of the world called Europe, which tends to be viewed as a kind of adult Disneyland. There are also a lot of exceptions, like me for example - Europeans have remarked to me that I’ve travelled to more places in Europe and know more about European history and culture than is common among people who live there. There are Europeans who have done the same in the US, and they don’t see Americans like Jan - which is why I suspect he may never have left Europe.

I met a guy on the road in Belgium once and stayed with he and his wife at their house in Gooik, near Brussels. The next morning at breakfast he announced he would ride with me to Calais... his first visit to France :)

[Ultranomad]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned that flying a private aircraft instead of a common carrier would provide virtually no advantage in terms of visa avoidance in Europe, if one is otherwise required to have a visa. That is, there are international airports where you may not be checked, but counting on that would be unwise.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Genghis: if this is from a writer, she/he might well improve on spelling and grammar! :)

@Silvaire: admitting I never left Europe, and also admitting I do am biased against US'ans in general, I still want to point out I come across people from many countries, working in Brussels and living only 20 kms off. Not that all Europeans have much broader knowledge, it depends on the country. France is poor in this respect and Spain is worse. And yes, many people never leave their own country, and even if they do it is often without taking any interest in the place they are visiting - I think equally low of the typical Belgian tourist who travels to Spain or Turkey on a charter plane, to spend two weeks on the beach and/or disco, and only eats "bifstèk-frites"! But if I get in touch with a foreigner who blatantly hasn't prepared the trip at all, it is usually a US'an. Yourself are an obvious exception, and are well aware of that. I do like your image of "an adult Disneyland"!

[Sam Rutherford]

Anything PA32/C206 or bigger, two days from NYC to UK (easily). Did a ferry of a PA32 last year from Bahamas to France, 2.5 (long but easy) days.

[nonsense]

... would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?

Consider instead a yacht.

In Australia we'd call it "doing a Mokbel (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/the-great-escape-mokbel-fled-in-luxury-yacht/2008/06/05/1212259042492.html)".

[3wheels]

Average Americans in my experience have travelled more than the average European and have broader worldwide experience.

How do you work that out when only 36% of Americans hold a passport compared with 70% of British citizens?

[Genghis the Engineer]

@Genghis: if this is from a writer, she/he might well improve on spelling and grammar! :)

@Silvaire: admitting I never left Europe, and also admitting I do am biased against US'ans in general, I still want to point out I come across people from many countries, working in Brussels and living only 20 kms off. Not that all Europeans have much broader knowledge, it depends on the country. France is poor in this respect and Spain is worse. And yes, many people never leave their own country, and even if they do it is often without taking any interest in the place they are visiting - I think equally low of the typical Belgian tourist who travels to Spain or Turkey on a charter plane, to spend two weeks on the beach and/or disco, and only eats "bifstèk-frites"! But if I get in touch with a foreigner who blatantly hasn't prepared the trip at all, it is usually a US'an. Yourself are an obvious exception, and are well aware of that. I do like your image of "an adult Disneyland"!

Fair point, but not all writers have been published (or ever will be), and having been an editor from time to time of both an encyclopaedia and an academic journal, you may take my word for it that some "professional" users of written English are not as good as the average standard on this thread! I used to subscribe to a professional writers newsletter (well, some of us were) that always contained a degree of poorly written bleating about "why won't these bar-steward editors ever publish me". On the other hand I recently joined the Society of Authors (a UK centric trade union for writers) who won't let you in unless you have at least one published book, and self published doesn't (normally) count - the standards of written English in their newsletter and website are things of beauty. So, not all is lost.

On the other point,all countries have well travelled intellectuals, just as all countries have closed minded homebodies. I am unconvinced that generalising, purely based upon the relative proportions, does much good on any level.

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

@GtE: thanks for your usual good sense. And yes we should avoid generalisations; still I prefer explaining some weak points in the opening post by a generalisation over making the poster a criminal, or at least suspect. I hope he/she will not be too much discouraged by certain critical replies - my own not least! - and will come back soon, so that we can better understand, and give better advice accordingly.

[BackPacker]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned that flying a private aircraft instead of a common carrier would provide virtually no advantage in terms of visa avoidance in Europe, if one is otherwise required to have a visa.

I know the US has the Visa Waiver Program for EU citizens. If you are an EU citizen, if you are visiting for short-term business or tourism, and if you are arriving on a commercial carrier, you can enter the country without a formal visa. (ESTA notwithstanding.)

The "commercial carrier" is important. If the friendly immigration officer at the border determines you're not eligible to enter the country under the VWP, then the carrier, by contract, has to take you back to the point of origin outside the US. This is the reason that you cannot enter the US under the VWP if you're flying on a private aircraft: The immigration officer cannot force a PIC to take off and leave the country, as that would violate FAA rules.

Does anybody know if the EU has similar restrictions? Because in that case, it would actually more onerous to arrive in the EU on a private aircraft, compared to a commercial airliner.

[Silvaire1]

How do you work that out when only 36% of Americans hold a passport compared with 70% of British citizens?

British citizens need a passport to cross the English Channel, which is hardly indicative of a propensity for worldwide exposure. This also leads British citizens to hold passports whether they use them or not. Similar short trips by Americans to neighboring countries require one of several types of travel document, not all of which count as a passport in the statistics you mention. Until recently a drivers license was all that was required. Americans who hold a passport tend to use theirs to make more significant trips. And of course you don’t need a passport to experience US cultures such as for example Native American/Eskimo, Puerto Rican, Guamanian or Hawaiian cultures... should life take you to those places.

Many Americans are immigrants, who came to the US from elsewhere and now don’t leave.

Many US citizens travel or have travelled in the military, which does not require a passport that counts in the statistics you mention.

[Sam Rutherford]

I've heard of non-Americans successfully entering the US in a private plane without a visa (against the rules) and not having an issue (presumably the immigration guy didn't look too closely or 'missed it').

Has anyone ever heard a story to the contrary? Someone getting stopped and...

Have no intention of trying this myself, but would be interested to hear it if it's happened and how it ended.

[Romeo Tango]

As I understand it (based on information told to me by Customs man in Nome, Alaska about 8 years ago) it is largely up to the man on the ground, he might let you get away with it the first time but maybe not. The second time you try it expect a large fine at the very least. This is entering USA in a small aircraft without a visa.

[Sam Rutherford]

That tallies with what I've heard (coming back into the US from the Bahamas a few years ago when we all had visas but another plane that morning had people without).

They got the "don't do it again" treatment.

I'm interested to know what the other options are though? Jail? They can't simply let them take off again and hope they really do leave the US as requested...

[horizon flyer]

Jikuda

This would be a very costly exercise and cost thousands and the aircraft would have to return to the US more costs.
Considering the cheapest flight from Boston to London is $150 dollars one way better choice.
Better would be a flight into the Shengen area of the EU as once in then you can move around most EU countries with no checks
The question is what passport do you hold? as some parts of the old Yugoslavia are inside the EU. Serbia is not.

Passport and customs checks are no big deal in Europe, as we are used to international passengers,
US airport are a nightmare to transfer through in comparison, to be avoided if possible.

At London Heathrow, if transferring internationally no visa is required as passengers stay air side and
do not enter the country as long as you are booked to the destination. Bags moved automatically no need to collect.

In fact you would need more visas and check into more countries, on a private flight.

Best of luck but I think it is a no go.

PS Legally a British citizen does not need a passport to leave or return to the UK but does need to prove they are a citizen of which a passport is an acceptable document but any other proof acceptable to the emigration officer is OK. Just need a passport to get into the country you are going to.

[BackPacker]

I've heard of non-Americans successfully entering the US in a private plane without a visa (against the rules) and not having an issue (presumably the immigration guy didn't look too closely or 'missed it').

Has anyone ever heard a story to the contrary? Someone getting stopped and...

Have no intention of trying this myself, but would be interested to hear it if it's happened and how it ended.

There is one legal way. You fly to the last airfield at the Canadian side of the CAN/US border, rent a car, drive to the border crossing, apply for the VWP right there and then, get granted permission to enter under the VWP, do a 180 back to your plane, return the car to the rental agency and then fly into the US.

Anyway, my question is about the EU equivalent of the VWP. I know US citizens don't need to apply beforehand for a Schengen visa of some sort. They can just enter into the Schengen area (or, I presume, the UK) after disembarking from a commercial flight. But what if you're flying into the Schengen zone/UK in a private aircraft?

[patowalker]

In my experience, the average Latin American, whether now resident in his/her own country or elsewhere, has a wider knowledge of world history and geography than the average European. This might sound strange, but in those countries there is a need to study not only local history, but that of the mother country, be it Spain or Portugal, which in turn leads their role in Europe, the Americas, the East Indies and Africa.