Miss Velma's engine failure and crash landing at Duxford from the cockpit

[NutLoose]

And post accident review, i know its stretching the military side but it is a fascinating insight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBpqvPujZgM

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/may/17/inside-a-p-51-engine-out-off-airport-landing



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[Evalu8ter]

What a fantastic video and training aid.

[treadigraph]

Thanks Nutty, haven't had a chance to listen to the whole interview yet but I'd suggest also posting it on Accidents and Close Calls section.

What an introduction to warbird display flying and how well he handled it.

Miss Velma is apparently well on her way to flying again in the US and hopefully will be back here in time for Flying Legends in July.

[Jhieminga]

Brilliant video, don't you just love those GoPros! :p

And a great analysis to boot, I'm going to be watching that a few times just to pick up all the learning points.

[MPN11]

Even after touchdown, and with straw flying everywhere, he’s still “Aviating” :ok:

I shall watch in full later. Good link, and perfectly relevant here IMO.

[treadigraph]

Even after touchdown, and with straw flying everywhere, he’s still “Aviating” :ok:

Exactly!

Having now watched the whole thing, he seems a very clear thinking individual and certainly an excellent speaker. This should definitely be shared as widely as possible.

Look forward to seeing him flying her at Duxford in July!

[Onceapilot]

Glad no injuries. Strange the AAIB report on this accident to a G registered aircraft stops short with "suspected carburettor fault" and investigation in USA. You can actually see the fuel pressure fall to zero and recover in time with the engine cuts and recoveries. The actual position of the tank feed selector can also be clearly seen in several frames. However, I cannot see the booster pump switch.

OAP

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Just watched that video. I remember the incident well and the gut sinking feeling as I saw the aircraft disappear from view behind the hangar. Also the relief when it came through that the pilot was OK.

Great video Nutloose, Thanks for sharing.

[Danny42C]

Nutloose (#1),

Fascinating ! 74 years ago last February I was in his shoes. Like him, I did (could?) not assume the worst at first, and kidded myself that "the engine's OK" - it wasn't ! Putting the gear down (before a landing on firm ground is "in the bag") is a no-no, but his ATC was only trying to help. Anyway, he remembered later, and got it up when it was obvious that he wouldn't make the airfield. Well flown, Sir !

At least, he finished up with the thing in one piece, and walked away from it. I left mine in bits strewn along a quarter mile of the Arakan, and they had to carry us out - both alive but not kicking much.

Puzzled: did I hear mention of "eject" ? From a P.51 ? Surely not ! Would dearly have liked to try one (with the Packard Merlin of course), to compare with the Spitfires I knew. (Silly me - NOTHING can be as good as a Spit!)

Danny,

[just another jocky]

Excellent video, thanks for linking to it.

Lots of really open and honest discussion. Is that interview available as a download? I'd really like to use that for our students.

[typerated]

Very Good,

He doesn't seem to mention but I wonder if he did a standard circuit and if so would he have preferred to do a tighter one?

If I had been in a similar spot (and blessed with thinking time and a level head!) I'd have kept it tight and accepted a (much) reduced runway length

Better to take the end fence at 50 rather than the front fence at 150!

[Just This Once...]

A very interesting point regarding the added safety provided by retractable gear in a single engine aircraft and stopping in around a football pitch length.

[Onceapilot]

Very Good,

He doesn't seem to mention but I wonder if he did a standard circuit and if so would he have preferred to do a tighter one?

If I had been in a similar spot (and blessed with thinking time and a level head!) I'd have kept it tight and accepted a (much) reduced runway length

Better to take the end fence at 50 rather than the front fence at 150!

If you look carefully at the vid, he was tight and the in cockpit vid looks like 75 degrees of bank and still would have been lucky to make the grass. Certainly, any powered approach will fall short if power is lost. Overall, a great pity that the M11 is quite where it is!

OAP

[Lonewolf_50]

Three's down and safe. All I could hear on the audio. Great discussion after. @NutLoose, nice find, thanks!

[MPN11]

If you look carefully at the vid, he was tight and the in cockpit vid looks like 75 degrees of bank and still would have been lucky to make the grass. Certainly, any powered approach will fall short if power is lost. Overall, a great pity that the M11 is quite where it is!As noted in the interview, with power coming and going, the constant recalculation of options was decidedly challenging!

[Green Flash]

If I knew I had but 1% of his coolness I would be a 100% happier man! And given that flight safety is EVERYONEs business I would suggest that this vid is essential viewing for anyone working in aviation. Aircraft bent but fixable, pilot walks away. Total result. Buy that man a pint. Several, in fact.

[Danny42C]

A rider to my #9:
Putting the gear down (before a landing on firm ground is "in the bag") is a no-no,
Only holds good for tail-draggers. For modern nosewheels, there was a discussion long ago (on Tee Emm or its postwar successor, whatever its name was). The consensus was "DOWN, BOY, DOWN" - as the modern swept wings come in at a higher angle of attack, with no wheels the tail will hit first and slam you down hard, doing your spine no good at all.

Anybody like to add anything ?

[typerated]

No OAP - I meant not going as far back on downwind ( but stay wide enough that you are not cramped).

I have no idea with the performance of a Mustang but my 'eyecrometer' says I'd have been planning on base less than 100 yards beyond the motorway - planning to touch down midfield .

If you are not cramped downwind It also gives you many more options as you turn base/final

If you can't stop (normally) by the end fence you are at least going much slower and can ground loop or pull up the wheels (good idea on a Mustang?)?
Even taking the end fence at slow speed is much better than taking the front fence at 150!

I saw somebody in a similar position make a similar approach (disappearing down on a long downwind) then literally brushed foliage with his gear as he struggled to get back! He then stopped in about 1/3 the runway!
This is essentially my point of people 'flying type'
Made me think of what I would do anyway!

[Flap62]

Instead of any discussion of how tight the circuit was I might personally have pointed at the field then considered a downwind landing.

[NutLoose]

Problem with that scenario is you would then be approaching 90 degrees to the runway with the crowdline on the other side of it.

[Flap62]

Indeed although not quite 90 off as he wasn’t due south when he made the decision to return. The M11 was an unwelcome complication. Not easy no matter what he chose. Glad he walked away.

[Onceapilot]

Part of the issue with emergencies in expensive Warbirds is that there could be a temptation to try and save the aircraft till the bitter end. Consider Gliders on cross country flying. They regularly make safe off-site landings for several reasons. Their landing speed is lower but, they always make a glide approach anyway so their handling skills are practiced. They generally have well considered plans for setting-up and executing a "forced landing", so they use the plan and land safely. I have never seen a Mustang make or practice a glide approach. The usual is a powered approach with a high RPM for engine response. This is the best way to operate them but, any serious loss of power may present the pilot with a scenario he is unable to deal with on approach. Generally, loss of power sufficient to continue normal flight in Piston warbirds would lead to a wheels-up forced landing in the original flying manual and, this is can the safest way if the pilot is trained for it.

OAP

[cats_five]

<snip>
Consider Gliders on cross country flying. They regularly make safe off-site landings for several reasons. Their landing speed is lower but, they always make a glide approach anyway so their handling skills are practiced.
<snip>


And very importantly gliders despite their fragile appearance are designed to land in fields.

[212man]

Excellent video and discussion within it. Not sure why posters are discussing the circuit - they were not flying a circuit to land but were positioning for a run in and break, so clearly it would be wider than normal. That’s why he had just moved to echelon starboard.

[Treble one]

Strangely enough, at the same show, there was a mid air between 2 other P-51's (prop strike during a formation change resulting to damage to the tailplane IIRC). This did result in an emergency downwind landed (uneventful).

[Onceapilot]

And very importantly gliders despite their fragile appearance are designed to land in fields.
Yes. Thanks cats. I would add then: "gliders despite their fragile appearance can successfully land in fields"

OAP.

[Flap62]

212man,

If your comment refered to me I didn’t think that the formation were trying to fly a formation circuit. They were obviously positioning for a RIAB (although very early to echelon if they were) when the first power loss occured. This left him with the option of going straight towards finals for the easterly runway with a right base to land downwind or joining (as he did) in a more conventional downwind position for left base to finals with M11 in the undershoot. Wasn’t there so not at all criticising but I think it’s perhaps helpful after videos like this are published to examine the what ifs.

[212man]

Not aimed at you F62 - there were other comments before that seemed to be general in nature about circuit dimension, e.g.

He doesn't seem to mention but I wonder if he did a standard circuit and if so would he have preferred to do a tighter one?

[dead_pan]

Problem with that scenario is you would then be approaching 90 degrees to the runway with the crowdline on the other side of it.

Not necessarily. He did have more speed/height to play with at this point, which may have allowed him to position for this. Maybe we need to do a "Sully" simulation to see if it was possible....

Have to say he was a very lucky boy - must have come within an ace of digging a wingtip in.

[typerated]

212 - I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

I was talking about the path taken after the Engine trouble started.