Does the RAF still have an all-weather capability?

[Onceapilot]

Does the RAF still have an all-weather capability? I only ask because there seems to have been difficulty with the RAF100 and 617 Sqn 75th flypast of the Derwent Dam today. I quite understand that safely flying the Lancaster in poor weather was not possible but, even I could have flown a Tornado through at 200' IMC TFR. Yes, the Typhoon got there but, why was there any doubt? Don't tell me the Typhoon is not IMC LL capable?

OAP

[Timelord]

I won’t then. But it was never designed for that, and low level is sooooo last century!

[Onceapilot]

I won’t then. But it was never designed for that, and low level is sooooo last century!

OK, tell me that it is then. If so, why was there any doubt about it? :)

OAP

[Timelord]

Sorry OAP, not making myself clear. The Typhoon is not IMC LL capable. It was never part of its spec and there is little perceived need for it these days. Although the GR1/4 has been on ops since GW1 that was the last time it used low level in anger. I was told that even the F15E people no longer train for it.
Anyway, even if the Typhoon WAS IMC LL capable it would not be legal there!

TL

[NutLoose]

What a total and utter farce, the RAF couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, I stood there listening to the moaning and bitching about the Lanc not coming, but could understand it as the weather was overcast, with a strong wind over the dams, the Typhoon was then people were told coming to do two passes over the dams, so people stayed and carried on moaning for the two odd hours to be told it too was cancelled well after its supposed ETA of 12.05, that in itself surprised me as I thought either it had gone tech or the RAF had stopped issuing aircrew watches to save money and precise timing was something they no longer practice.

People upon being told it was cancelled then started to rush back to their cars to avoid the traffic and as they were walking through the thick wooded area the Typhoon passed overhead, the comments re the RAF range from the brown smelly stuff to utter disgust and loathing, and were venting their anger at a willing press, some even rushed back to try and capture the supposed second none existent Flypast.

What a total PR disaster, there must have been thousands of people there, numbers airshows dream off these days, some I talked to had travelled over a hundred miles and taken days off work to see this, the RAF 100th and Dambuster 75th anniversary event, thank God the RAF 75 years ago had the grit and tenacity to battle through to the dams, because the Current RAF appears to have lost that skill.

i just hope they do not continue to repeat this farce across the country, because they appear to have lost a lot of supporters in the crowds today. Perhaps next time they should ask the Luftwaffe to do it for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-44143634

it wouldn't have said it would have been IMC, as the cloud base was well above the surrounding hills, I would have said well over 500ft I will post a picture for you later, so you can play Spot the RAF

[Valiantone]

They had a North Easterly crosswind at Coningsby of 18 to 22 knots most of the day. I know I was stood out in it (it didn't feel like spring that's for sure)

And the treasured item that PA474 is wasn't even pulled out of the hangar.

As for the Typhoon well it got there, having read some stuff on various forums (admittedly not regarding this) several words spring to mind for the moaning minis.... None of which are repeatable here. Remember they don't ave hangars full of em now and we only have one left....

[NutLoose]

The general consensus was they could understand the Lanc not turning up, it had been posted on the web it might not make it due to weather the night before, people understood that and I tried to explain to those near me that it was not necessarily the weather at the dams that could be the issue, more the weather at Coningsby, the kicker was the failed replacement Typhoon appearance which was a mega downer for the crowds, who then got kicked in the nuts by it turning up as people were leaving after they had announced it wasn't coming, it would have been better if he simply didn't bother to turn up, but the fact he did after people had sat or stood waiting up to six to seven hours and then we're not in a position to see it really turned the proverbial knife.

i was easy with it having been at the EMA Vulcan farce and knowing these things happen,and had a plan B to fall back on, a lot of disappointed folks didn't.

several words spring to mind for the moaning minis.... None of which are repeatable here. Remember they don't ave hangars full of em now and we only have one left....

Those moaning minis as you call them pay for the RAF, those moaning minis can often be the voice and public opinion that prevents swaging cuts to the armed forces, you should remember that.

[Valiantone]

Yes, they pay for it via taxes, but not all up here in Lincolnshire like the RAF and some of them probably would be out celebrating more cuts, and I suspect that might the case elsewhere also. All I can say for them is something and Off

Thankfully I am not one of the miserable *************

[Two's in]

Yes, they do have an an all-weather capability.

https://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/images/product/main/GORTEX-NEW-FR-BRIT.jpg

[minigundiplomat]

With so many cuts since 1990, I am not sure the RAF still has an all day capability.

It's even worse in the Royal Navy - working weeks were cut to just Tuesday-Thursday some years ago.

[Bob Viking]

So you estimated the cloud base and it appeared to be 500’ above the hills. It must have been legal eventually for the Typhoon to get through.

Derwemt Dam is a grade one nightmare to reach in foul weather. The flow arrows, controlled airspace and the vaguaries of Peak District weather make it somewhere most of us avoid on anything but a perfect day.

Despite all of this, in the future the RAF should ignore all the laws of VFR flying and press on regardless to make a flypast for the pleasure of several thousand people. After all, flouting rules in order to make a public flypast would go down very well in the post Shoreham world.

I can guarantee that those involved will have made every effort to get there but nobody can change the weather. It sounds like communication was the only thing that they could have controlled better.

As for all weather calability, that was the Tornado’s job, not Tyohoon as already mentioned. Also, to be clear, even the Tornado would not have been allowed to engage TFR through the Peak District.

Rules are rules I’m afraid.

I get that you and many other people were annoyed but at least there is not a Typhoon shaped crater somewhere in the side of a hill.

BV

[Mr. Vice]

Nutloose,

Your comment above cannot go unanswered and quite frankly boils my pi55. To even suggest that the 'RAF of Today' don't have the 'Grit or Tenacity' is down right offensive.

Why don't you ask the Typhoon and Tornado crews amongst others who battle day and night over Syria and Iraq, as we speak, to Air to Air Refuel in thunderstorms at night over the most dangerous places in the world in order to drop bombs and kill ISIS about their ''Tenacity".

You clearly think that PR is all the modern RAF should care about, but you don't mention the recent strikes carried out by Tornado and Typhoon against Assads chemical weapons facilities, is that not enough PR?

At the end of the day your story reads like this:

1) RAF Plan Lancaster flypast.
2) Weather precludes Lancaster flying
3) Typhoon does flypast

You got your flypast, now stop slating the 'Modern RAF' and let us crack on with killing the enemy.

Mr Vice.

*Rant over, no hard feelings. There is a War to get on with.

[just another jocky]

Sorry OAP, not making myself clear. The Typhoon is not IMC LL capable. It was never part of its spec and there is little perceived need for it these days. Although the GR1/4 has been on ops since GW1 that was the last time it used low level in anger. I was told that even the F15E people no longer train for it.
Anyway, even if the Typhoon WAS IMC LL capable it would not be legal there!

TL

Re bold above; can I take issue with that. There have been numerous times when individual Tornados have used the IMC LL capability on ops since GW1. Indeed I used it in Afghanistan but it has been used at other times also.

The rest of your post however, I agree with.

[dash2]

I understand that the Lanc not turning up was very disappointing (but couldn’t be helped) but I can assure you that the pilot of the Typhoon did their utmost to get through on time. They were on time on track until an impassable bank of cloud met the granite 15nm north of the target.

If the weather isn’t passable/legal then it is foolish/dangerous to press on (especially if there is no gap at all between the granite and the clouds...). I concur that with hindsight it would have been better not to turn up rather than to work very hard to reroute and get there with minimal fuel (enough for only one pass) and cause this level of disappointment/upset.

The messaging was poor but was a simple mix up by well meaning people (not all RAF) doing their best. I can understand the disappointment and anger from the public but am surprised to see it on this forum. The person that I feel for most is Johnny Johnson who was planned to be on the Lanc

[Pontius Navigator]

One should always remember the adage, time to spare, go by air. It will be some time before air runs as smoothly as bus and train :)

​​​​​​

[Pontius Navigator]

the vaguaries of Peak District weather
BV
Interesting word there, U or non-U, that dreaded auto correct of course. :)

[Easy Street]

Radio 4’s Sarah Montague got flown south along the Derwent run in a GR4 a couple of months ago and the 360 video is on YouTube

Watching it from about 12:30 you can see that the valley is much too twisty and narrow for a fast jet to stay within. Also you can see that the cloud base directly over the dam is less likely to be a problem than the cloud base over the high moorland to the north. Fast jet low flying rules require a minimum of 500 feet vertical clearance from cloud, and with the minimum flying height being 250 feet this means a cloud base of 750 feet above ground is the absolute minimum needed for legality. These rules are in place to allow ‘see and avoid’ against light aircraft and helicopters, which can quite legally potter around ‘clear of cloud in sight of surface’ in much worse conditions. The only place in the UK where the IMC capability of Tornado can legally be used for sustained low flying is the segregated airspace R610 over the Highlands.

Flypasts usually have to be higher than 250 feet as well; this would have compounded the weather issue and maybe required a cloud base as high as 1000 feet above ground. To be honest, given the descriptions given, it sounds as if things were being pushed a bit. The pressure of an audience is the one thing that worried me most as a flying supervisor, much more than anything on operations; people can take surprising and unwarranted risks in the heat of the moment, as the litany of display accidents in recent years amply demonstrates.

[The Oberon]

Well, the Lancaster is up today, just flew over Scampton village heading SW.

[Timelord]

Re bold above; can I take issue with that. There have been numerous times when individual Tornados have used the IMC LL capability on ops since GW1. Indeed I used it in Afghanistan but it has been used at other times also.

The rest of your post however, I agree with.

JAJ - OK, how about “ Hasn’t delivered weapons in anger at L L since then”

TL

[BEagle]

Quite clearly the RAF wasn't going to risk the priceless Lancaster in such conditions of wind and low cloud and it was courteous of Milly to explain the reason.

The Typhoon mate did well to find a way through vile low level weather en route in order to achieve a fly past in such conditions. Weather in that area has always been difficult and rock-filled clouds are not something to be risked.

Whoever made the announcement that the Typhoon wouldn't be able to make the original time was either misunderstood or had been mis-briefed. Which was a pity; nevertheless the Typhoon pilot should be congratulated.

But the whingeing and moaning from a few vociferous spotters and snappers who weren't able to 'capture' the flypast is unbelievable.

[Easy Street]

Timelord,

The GR4 delivered weapons in anger at LL about a month ago: 8 Storm Shadows. Almost certainly flying radalt heights over sea rather than using the TFR, but that’s a technicality!

As others have already observed, missions such as that are the measure by which the RAF should be judged. Not flypasts on poor weather days in congested airspace over the Pennines.

[Bob Viking]

I suppose the one thing missing from all the previous replies is a simple answer.

Does the RAF still possess an all weather capability?

The answer is yes.

If someone had asked the RAF to bomb Derwent Dam yesterday they could have, with a choice of weapons.

Asking for a peace time flypast isn’t quite the same thing.

All weather in 1943 and all weather in 2018 are two very different kettles of fish. Thankfully the potential risks are far less than they were in 1943 as well.

BV

[Onceapilot]

Of course, if the RAF decide to put up a very public display of any sort, they better have a good idea of the reaction if it goes wrong. I suspect that few would argue with the problems of safely operating a 75 year old Lancaster in limiting conditions and, the decision not to fly. However, poor coordination of the follow-up obviously generated disappointment. The inability of the RAF to flypast any of its frontline aircraft on target and on a given time gives a stark illustration of a weakness. It doesn't matter that the near future IMC LL capability that the RAF has chosen will be limited to and wholly owned by cruise missiles because, in the context of a public flypast, if it is late, goes wrong or is a cok-up, it is a failure.

OAP

[falcon900]

All said and done, an opportunity for positive PR reversed, not by the fault of Aircrew, but by poor communications. Net result pretty much the same though....
But the real and ongoing PR disaster relates to the point made earlier by Mr Vice. The overwhelming majority of the public, and it would appear our politicians, seem to have little if any appreciation of the extent of the ongoing RAF activity in Syria/Iraq, and absolutely none of what it is intended to achieve and when it might end.

[NutLoose]

Yep, don't get me wrong, I am posting the comments I heard frequently during the day over this farce, and some were a lot more vocal, the fact the dams are in a technology blackspot with no mobiles or internet didn't help as people had to rely on the information being handed out incorrectly, but either way it was without doubt a total RAF PR disaster...

Myself I decided to go because it was somewhere close by that I hadn't visited and it gave me the excuse to pop along and photograph the area, which is what I did, it taught me however that if they ever managed to do it again to take the 70-200 2.8 and not the 100-400 lens as from the position we were the lens was to long to get the aircraft over the dam, either that or take my second body along with a 24-105 on it as it might be better.


The fact the Typhoon FGR4 is being touted as the RAF's new mudmover seems to be at odds with " renders Typhoon superbly equipped for all aspects of air operations" unless that is in the ****ty wet and cloud covered countryside that the covers most of Europe and beyond. It seems strange to build a warplane that cannot operate in what would be its primary theatre.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/typhoon-fgr4/


.. (https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/typhoon-fgr4/)

[Dan Gerous]

Yes, they do have an an all-weather capability.

https://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/images/product/main/GORTEX-NEW-FR-BRIT.jpg
Don't they have anything in MTP? :)

[TEEEJ]

Congratulations to all!

The last surviving member who took part in the iconic Dambusters raid in May 1943 has taken to the skies again in a Lancaster bomber which has flown over Derbyshire this morning.

Squadron Leader George ‘Johnny’ Johnson MBE, DFM , who took part in Operation Chastise, flew on board the Royal Air Force Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster (https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/lancaster-bomber-derwent-dam-1576808) to mark the 75th anniversary of the raid.

Johnny flew in the bomb aimer's position he had in 1943, as the aircraft flew over the dams in the Derwent Valley, just as he did 75 years ago whist training for the 617 Squadron raid on the German dams.

Officer commanding BBMF, Squadron Leader Andrew Milikin said: "We are thrilled that we are able to finally mark this amazing anniversary in such a poignant way.

"It was always our intent to pay tribute to Johnny as the last British Dambuster by carrying out this sortie on May 16 1943 and we were bitterly disappointed that the weather stopped us yesterday.

Video at following link

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/dambuster-derwent-dan-derbyshire-1576961

https://www.facebook.com/BBMF.Official/posts/1657090384345968

https://www.facebook.com/BBMF.Official/photos/a.515596881828663.1073741828.216980461690308/1657090361012637/?type=3&theater

[TEEEJ]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdY7L5bW4AACra2.jpg

https://twitter.com/Twigs95/status/997049885894631424

https://twitter.com/Twigs95

[Arclite01]

Good job. :ok:

Heard him on Radio 4 yesterday afternoon. Modest and well spoken chap it seemed to me.

Arc

[NutLoose]

This is the Tiffie flypast and also an indication of the weather throughout the day

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/lancaster-bomber-flyover-typhoon-1572264

[NutLoose]

As for Jonny Johnson. he's getting around, he was doing a bit of gardening the other day too and good on him at his age :ok:

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/lincoln-news/it-look-lovely-its-finished-1570922

I think this will look superb when done.

[Just This Once...]

JAJ - OK, how about “ Hasn’t delivered weapons in anger at L L since then”

TL

Loads of us have done just that, with and without TFR help.

Much as it pains me to admit it, but for pure style the Harrier KRET delivered during an apparent show-of-force profile will take some beating.

[Timelord]

Loads of us have done just that, with and without TFR help.

Much as it pains me to admit it, but for pure style the Harrier KRET delivered during an apparent show-of-force profile will take some beating.


Well, I stand corrected but genuinely, for my education, during which op / campaign since GW1were GR1/4 low level attacks planned? (Apart from the suggestion above of Storm Shadow vs Syria)

TL

[pr00ne]

Timelord,

Tornado GR4 in Afghanistan, and strafe as well as low level show of force, far more impressive, noisy and shocking than a Harrier! Typhoon and Tornado GR4 in Syria/Iraq currently. It's all on the MoD website on a daily basis of sorties, weapons used and effect achieved, go look for yourself rather than carping on about it never happening.

[Bob Viking]

You mention that IMC LL strike means Storm Shadow.

Surely, since you were once a pilot, you can appreciate there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Why does the target need need to be bombed from LL in this day and age? What’s wrong with a GPS guided munition from an aircraft that can’t be seen on radar?

It may not be as much fun but it’s just as efffective and potentially far less risky.

As much as we all love a bit of low level, times have moved on. Thankfully we are getting the tools to move with them. Even if they are a little pricey!

BV

[Heathrow Harry]

With so many cuts since 1990, I am not sure the RAF still has an all day capability.

It's even worse in the Royal Navy - working weeks were cut to just Tuesday-Thursday some years ago.

same as the Civil Service then....................

[pr00ne]

Heathrow Harry,

Nonsense! Doing some work right now with a large Government Ministry and nothing could be further from the truth!

[langleybaston]

same as the Civil Service then....................


For the Met Office to function it always has had to staff some posts 24/7.

One of those staff at Coningsby had the unpleasant experience of briefing a no-show yesterday .......... never the forecaster's decision, but always a nasty personal experience.

Well done to all concerned, but a pity about the PR. Life's a bitch .......................

[Jimlad1]

same as the Civil Service then....................

I must have imagined doing several 6-7 month long op tours working12-14hrs 7 days per week as a CS, or working with massively dedicated people who worked very long hours and weekends to deliver as planned.

You utter cockwomble.

[Pontius Navigator]

Do I detect fish rising?

[Onceapilot]

Hi Bob. Yes, I understand the advantages of SO. However, there are also some disadvantages and my contention is that it is also unwise to have all your eggs in one basket. Present doctrine might well not see the need for LL IMC penetration to launch SO or, operations in less than a generated " safe from engagement" environment but, that does not mean that there could not be future circumstances where LL IMC is the best way to do a particular task also combining SO and even, being tasked to operate in circumstances where LL IMC elements of operation might improve the survivability of that mission . I am surprised that there seems to be no information about any strap-on LL IMC system to enable Typhoon, so it seems that the RAF will soon lose the IMC LL capability. I do not want to try to talk tactics (I am out of date anyway) but, I do think it is a mistake to lose the LL IMC capability and the flexibility that it can bring in some circumstances. Cheers

OAP

[frodo_monkey]

This is the Tiffie flypast and also an indication of the weather throughout the day

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/lancaster-bomber-flyover-typhoon-1572264

No one calls it a ‘Tiffie’.

[beardy]

No one calls it a ‘Tiffie’.
I was somewhat surprised when I read the unpublished memories of a WW2 Typhoon pilot (the father of a good friend) he repeatedly referred to his aircraft as a Tiffie. He loved it and the role.

[langleybaston]

Do I detect fish rising?

As in Michael?

Yes. Cheap jibes at stereotypes can be acceptable if done lightheartedly.

An apology helps, of course.

[ValMORNA]

The Hawker Typhoon in WWII was often called the 'Tiffie', by Servicemen/women and civilians alike.

[Stitchbitch]

No one calls it a ‘Tiffie’.

Unfortunately they - even those who should know better - do. They even use the spotters favourite expression ‘gone tech’ as well. Heard quite a few time on a Typhoon Squadron and down South..

[Teamchief]

Thread drift .......but, thanks to the BBMF Lancaster low and loud and heading north over Stamford at 19:50 ish tonight. You made an old Chief very happy. Dams raid commemorations i expect?

[NutLoose]

Unfortunately they - even those who should know better - do. They even use the spotters favourite expression ‘gone tech’ as well. Heard quite a few time on a Typhoon Squadron and down South..


Gone Tech was often used during my service career and throughout my civilian aircraft engineering career, certainly not a spotter term, several ex Tiffie mates also refer to it as the Tiffie, which as said was the common name used during the war, in a similar vein everyone used to call the R.A.F RAF as in a single word even though the likes of Bader frowned upon it.

several threads on here refer to it as such, one includes a debate.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/567445-tiffie-splashes-raptor.html

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/567509-after-tiffie.html

[goudie]

I cannot understand the objection to calling the Typhoon a Tiffie. We’ve had quite a few nicknames for our aircraft. .

Meteor = Meatbox
Canberra = Cranberry
Belfast = Belslow
Hercules = Fat Albert
Vulcan = Tin Triangle

I’m sure there are a few others.

[eckhard]

In my 46-year career I have often heard engineers and pilots referring to an aircraft as, “gone tech”. I don’t know if any of them were spotters but I started as one!

“Tiffie” sounds a bit like a chocolate bar, but I don’t object to it.

[just another jocky]

JAJ - OK, how about “ Hasn’t delivered weapons in anger at L L since then”

TL


Hah, I'm not sure that's true either, however, the OP was about making it through the weather which the shortly-retiring Tornado can certainly do. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

GT is now probably more acceptable than TU in this PC world :)

As for Tiffie, perhaps too Camp with the predominance of NATO standard replacing tea. :)

[Davef68]

I’m sure there are a few others.

The Tornado is an interesting example - in it's early days, if using a nickname, I never heard service personnel call it anything other than the 'Fin'. Spotter/Enthusiasts started calling it the Tonka, and this seems to have been adopted by some within the service in it's latter years.

[Onceapilot]

Norfolk Land Shark.
OAP

[Lima Juliet]

The trouble with Typhoon at low level is that it drinks fuel at an alarming rate - so much so I thought we had a fuel leak when I flew one in the early days! It really isn’t the platform of choice for that.

However, Typhoon is not the only game in town for the RAF. Very soon there will be some F35Bs in the UK belonging to the oldest independent air force. Also, Future Combat Air System (FCAS) is looking more and more likely to be manned replacing the Tonkas in the 2020s. It might be F35A or C or it could be the jet that the French/Germans are planning to make to replace their Rafales and Tonkas? I suspect that Farnborough will see some announcements this year about this.

So chill yout beans, all, and I too want to publically acknowledge the skill of the Typhoon pilot that made it to Derwent in some pretty cr@p weather.

LJ

[beardy]

Very soon there will be some F35Bs in the UK belonging to the oldest independent air force

They are coming from Finland?

[langleybaston]

My dear father, ex RAF LAC Fighter Command Balloons, never ever referred to the service as "raf".
He said it was not part of riffraff and came down hard on me and others when his beloved service was misnamed.
To this day I cringe when I hear the dread word.

[Buster15]

My apologies for being DIM but for the non aircrew what does IMC mean (I understand LL).
Thank you.

[BEagle]

Instrument Meteorological Conditions.

[Buster15]

Thank you my friend.

[Misformonkey]

Are we talking Mess Dinners here??

[Lima Juliet]

Beardy - Finland???
https://www.raf.mod.uk/raf100/news/the-world-s-first-independent-air-force/

[beardy]

Beardy - Finland???
https://www.raf.mod.uk/raf100/news/the-world-s-first-independent-air-force/
The Finnish Air Force was founded 6th March 1918. It was very small. Do you really take MOD PR as Gospel?

[NutLoose]

Buster IMC as explained, VFR is the other which is Visual Flight Rules, as in you can see the ground.

[BEagle]

In addition to cloud / visibility requirements, SERA only requires a pilot to be in sight of the surface to fly under VFR below 3000ft amsl…. Currently the MilAIP hasn't been updated to current criteria though.

You can fly under VFR above 8/8 cloud at greater heights, provided that you maintain the required minimum separation from cloud and flight visibility requirements appropriate to the airspace category and altitude / FL.

IFR is available whether flying in VMC or IMC; however, it is mandatory in IMC. VFR is only available in VMC.

[Lima Juliet]

The Finish Air Force was founded 6th March 1918. It was very small. Do you really take MOD PR as Gospel?

Do you really believe that ONE borrowed aircraft from Sweden compares to the Royal Air Force (22,000 aircraft, 300,000 officers and men in November 1918)? Further that the RAF cannot claim to be the world’s first independent air force when it was officially formed on 1st April 1918 because it was beaten to it by twenty-five days by the Finnish Air Force with one borrowed aeroplane!??

With ONE aircraft they couldn’t even claim to be a Flying Club!!!

PS. it’s “Finnish” with 2x “n”

[Lima Juliet]

BEagle - SERA not applicable as military use RA2307? https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/696309/RA2307_Issue_8.pdf

The same applies for the Air Nav Order under Article 249 in that:

It is lawful for the Rules of the Air, or for any obligation in SERA the breach of which would otherwise be an offence under this Order, to be departed from by an aircraft of which the pilot in command is acting as such in the course of the pilot in command’s duty as a member of any of Her Majesty’s naval, military or air forces.

So SERA does not apply :ok:

[glad rag]

Timelord,

Tornado GR4 in Afghanistan, and strafe as well as low level show of force, far more impressive, noisy and shocking than a Harrier! Typhoon and Tornado GR4 in Syria/Iraq currently. It's all on the MoD website on a daily basis of sorties, weapons used and effect achieved, go look for yourself rather than carping on about it never happening.
Indeed.

fbUbZ8cgEqA

[Pontius Navigator]

Fascinating and something there for CGI film makers, bullets don't fly straight or arrive in a straight line.

What was the ECO fail message?

[spekesoftly]

What was the ECO fail message?

ECU Electronic Control Unit?

[beardy]

Do you really believe that ONE borrowed aircraft from Sweden compares to the Royal Air Force (22,000 aircraft, 300,000 officers and men in November 1918)? Further that the RAF cannot claim to be the world’s first independent air force when it was officially formed on 1st April 1918 because it was beaten to it by twenty-five days by the Finnish Air Force with one borrowed aeroplane!??

With ONE aircraft they couldn’t even claim to be a Flying Club!!!

PS. it’s “Finnish” with 2x “n”
Thank you for correcting my spelling. I made no comparisons, just pointed out dates. The RAF has an enormous amount to be proud of without resorting to jingoistic hubris. Let's be generous and let the Finns have their place in history.
MOD PR is a bit like the gospels, scripted by people who weren't there and who have a vested interest in painting a good, if incomplete picture .

[BEagle]

Lima Juliet, not quite...

Read para 40 of RA2307(1) and compare it with the relevant section of the MilAIP.

I've pointed this out to AIDU and was assured that the error will be corrected shortly; eventually the MilAIP will feature as a subset of the UK Civil IAIP.

[Pontius Navigator]

ECU Electronic Control Unit?
Thank you, different meaning in years gone by.

In this case was it significant? Certainly didn't stop the 'show of force'. Not bad for one cannon. As an aside, I watched a qualification practice on the range. It was pretty close to end of twilight when she finished (either way) and we could barely see the jet. Very impressive.

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by pr00ne https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/608950-does-raf-still-have-all-weather-capability-post10149435.html#post10149435)Timelord,

Tornado GR4 in Afghanistan, and strafe as well as low level show of force, far more impressive, noisy and shocking than a Harrier! Typhoon and Tornado GR4 in Syria/Iraq currently. It's all on the MoD website on a daily basis of sorties, weapons used and effect achieved, go look for yourself rather than carping on about it never happening.

And that's the problem it isn't on the news, its okay saying they are there, but without Joe Public seeing it night after night on the 9 oclock news it isn't happening in their eyes.

[pr00ne]

NutLoose,

But it iS on the news, that's where this particular member of Joe Public saw it, on Sky and BBC News with footage of Akrotiri. It might not be on every day but maybe that's because it IS happening virtually every day so it isn't actually news?

[Out Of Trim]

Thank you, different meaning in years gone by.

In this case was it significant? Certainly didn't stop the 'show of force'. Not bad for one cannon. As an aside, I watched a qualification practice on the range. It was pretty close to end of twilight when she finished (either way) and we could barely see the jet. Very impressive.

Not bad for one cannon.

Why one cannon when the GR4 has two! The F3 only had one..

[Lima Juliet]

Not bad for one cannon.

Why one cannon when the GR4 has two! The F3 only had one..

The GR1 had two 27mm but the GR4 only has one like the F3...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/RAF_Tornado_GR4_MOD_45155233.jpg/1200px-RAF_Tornado_GR4_MOD_45155233.jpg

[Out Of Trim]

Thanks for the correction!

I missed that change from the GR1.. Why did they remove one?

[Timelord]

Thanks for the correction!

I missed that change from the GR1.. Why did they remove one?

To make space for the FLIR and its electronics