NI troubles, another Serviceman up on charges of murder

[NutLoose]

Sigh, I do feel this is all one sided.

Ex-soldier Dennis Hutchings will face trial over killing - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44054776)

[golfbananajam]

Seems you're only exempt prosecution if you are or was an IRA terrorist these days.

I always wonder what the response would be if the defence lawyer asked any witness or jury member or prosecution lawyer if they could remember EXACTLY what they were doing in the 1970's and whether that would impact the result

[goudie]

Revenge, more than justice, IMHO and as we know, that’s best served up as a cold dish!

[Wander00]

So what about the b*****d who planted the bomb at Hyde Park. Didn't he get some Blair "get out of jail free" card. If they can go after servicemen, why not him, and others

[airpolice]

NI troubles, another Serviceman up on charges of murder
Not quite true.

Former British soldier Dennis Hutchings will be tried for attempted murder

[rog747]

surely the good friday agreement should apply to both sides?

[airpolice]

surely the good friday agreement should apply to both sides?

It certainly is being applied to both sides, as intended.

The gunmen get away with it, and the British troops get sacrificed.

[Treble one]

Surely, a decent barrister will expose the massive holes in the procedural aspects of the case, the fact that he was told he wouldn't be prosecuted, the timespan since the alleged offence, and the numerous other issues? Isn't this merely a waste of taxpayers money as surely there's no realistic possibility of a conviction?

[airpolice]

Surely, a decent barrister will expose the massive holes in the procedural aspects of the case, the fact that he was told he wouldn't be prosecuted, the timespan since the alleged offence, and the numerous other issues? Isn't this merely a waste of taxpayers money as surely there's no realistic possibility of a conviction?

I think you may find that is is not a waste, but a use, of tax raised revenue. The idea behind the legal system is to get lawyers paid, not to look after the legal rights of service people.

Regardless of whether or not Justice is served, the upper echelons of the legal establishment look after the current and future members of the Judiciary. This whole show trial farce is painful for the troops, but pays the (substantial) wages of the Lawyers, and Judges, involved in hearing the cases.

[Out Of Trim]

I can't see this playing well in Court. He was told some 40 years ago that he would not be prosecuted. What changed? Some of his fellow soldiers that witnessed the incident are now deceased.

It would appear that the Good Friday Agreement was poorly constructed; in that Terrorists were set free and no further action would be taken against them. Whilst no such protection was given for Service Personnel doing their duty!

I hope he refuses to be cross examined and remains silent!

[Treble one]

I think you may find that is is not a waste, but a use, of tax raised revenue. The idea behind the legal system is to get lawyers paid, not to look after the legal rights of service people.

Regardless of whether or not Justice is served, the upper echelons of the legal establishment look after the current and future members of the Judiciary. This whole show trial farce is painful for the troops, but pays the (substantial) wages of the Lawyers, and Judges, involved in hearing the cases.

I think farce is too mild a description for this utter waste of time. There's more chance of me flying to the moon than there is of getting a conviction here.

[Haraka]

This is just idiotic . As stated by airpolice, yet another antic by the " liberal" chair sitters to navel gaze over events long gone and invoke 21st century snowflake hysteria (for profit of course ).
Yes -I was serving in N.I. in the 70's and yes I did witness,first hand, the human consequencies of the barbaric activities of the PIRA.

[airpolice]

This is just idiotic . As stated by airpolice, yet another antic by the " liberal" chair sitters to navel gaze over events long gone and invoke 21st century snowflake hysteria (for profit of course ).
Yes -I was serving in N.I. in the 70's and yes I did witness,first hand, the human consequencies of the barbaric activities of the PIRA.

I'm not sure that it is all about snowflakes, I believe the primary driver here is the simple ruse of saying that justice must be seen to be done, at any cost.

Well.... providing that cost is the bill from my chambers to HMG (Taxpayers) and it's a belter.

Look at Asylum Seeker appeals. Do we all really think that UK taxpayers should be funding translation services and legal representation for foreigners? Some, I have no percentages, of the people involved came here unlawfully, committed offences, were told to go, and are getting aid (paid by us) to fight that decision!

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Gentlemen,

Forgive yet another intrusion from the civil side.

Unfortunately, with the rejection of the Abuse of Process application, Mr. Hutchings will have to undergo due process through the Courts. There is little anyone on this forum can do to assist him, other than offer moral support.

On 11th May 2018, the Legacy Policy Team of the Northern Ireland Office wrote to a number of "interested parties" regarding a Consultation Paper into "Legacy" issues in N.I. The question of investigation of fatal shootings by Security Forces in N.I. falls squarely into this paper.

Para. 2.1 states that views are sought "from all interested parties, individuals and groups".

Email address and closing date for submissions are listed in the paper, which is viewable here:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/706280/Legacy_Consultation_-_Addressing_the_Legacy_of_Northern_Ireland_s_Past.pdf

While it may not be of any immediate benefit to Mr. Hutchings, I respectfully suggest that it is time to step up to the plate.....

[Basil]

Makes one wonder why one would join the mil at all to have this sort of thing hanging over one's head for decades.

[NWSRG]

There is a real danger of the history of the Troubles in NI being rewritten. The reality of terrorism is being airbrushed out, to be replaced by a romantic version of history that effectively justifies the actions of the terrorist. Meanwhile the legitimate forces of law and order (and I won't say they were always perfect) are being cast as the villains.

Irrespective of the motivations, if you joined PIRA (or the UDA / UVF for that matter), you set yourself on a course that was about murder and carnage. You chose that pathway, knowing full well the outcome. And knowing that it might bring you into direct conflict with the "forces of the state" and that you might come off second best. The RUC, UDR and Army were doing an altogether different thing...defending the ordinary people of NI (and GB), being the thin line between normality and anarchy. They had their bad eggs, as will any organisation. But for the vast majority, they never stepped out in the morning intending to carry out acts of violence. They put their own lives on the line to defend against violence.

As a (moderate) unionist living in NI, I am seeing daily the "respect" that the republican movement is affording those of us who wish to remain in the Union. They are playing a game...and they play it well. It involves covering their own sins by justifying "the conflict", assigning blame to the entire NI population ("we were all part of the problem"...well I wasn't...I never set out to disadvantage anyone because of their religion or political views, let alone do them harm, and the majority were like me), and actively campaigning against any vestiges of UK heritage that we have remaining.

So now, we have children's play parks named after PIRA murderers, we have convicted terrorists released early from prison, and lauded into government, and we have those same ex-terrorists (complete with 'amnesty' letters for their past crimes) demanding that ex-soldiers be dragged into courts over incidents that they never wanted to be part of in the first place. If a young squaddie, made the wrong decision, in a split-second assessment, in an environment that he was never trained to be in, then our government must stand beside them. Not throw them to the wolves of political correctness.

I said I was a moderate unionist...I will remain moderate, but it's becoming ever more difficult to do so. Airbrushing the truth only presses the moderates in society towards less moderate views, and that will not help any of us.

[RedhillPhil]

There is a real danger of the history of the Troubles in NI being rewritten. The reality of terrorism is being airbrushed out, to be replaced by a romantic version of history that effectively justifies the actions of the terrorist. Meanwhile the legitimate forces of law and order (and I won't say they were always perfect) are being cast as the villains.

Irrespective of the motivations, if you joined PIRA (or the UDA / UVF for that matter), you set yourself on a course that was about murder and carnage. You chose that pathway, knowing full well the outcome. And knowing that it might bring you into direct conflict with the "forces of the state" and that you might come off second best. The RUC, UDR and Army were doing an altogether different thing...defending the ordinary people of NI (and GB), being the thin line between normality and anarchy. They had their bad eggs, as will any organisation. But for the vast majority, they never stepped out in the morning intending to carry out acts of violence. They put their own lives on the line to defend against violence.

As a (moderate) unionist living in NI, I am seeing daily the "respect" that the republican movement is affording those of us who wish to remain in the Union. They are playing a game...and they play it well. It involves covering their own sins by justifying "the conflict", assigning blame to the entire NI population ("we were all part of the problem"...well I wasn't...I never set out to disadvantage anyone because of their religion or political views, let alone do them harm, and the majority were like me), and actively campaigning against any vestiges of UK heritage that we have remaining.

So now, we have children's play parks named after PIRA murderers, we have convicted terrorists released early from prison, and lauded into government, and we have those same ex-terrorists (complete with 'amnesty' letters for their past crimes) demanding that ex-soldiers be dragged into courts over incidents that they never wanted to be part of in the first place. If a young squaddie, made the wrong decision, in a split-second assessment, in an environment that he was never trained to be in, then our government must stand beside them. Not throw them to the wolves of political correctness.

I said I was a moderate unionist...I will remain moderate, but it's becoming ever more difficult to do so. Airbrushing the truth only presses the moderates in society towards less moderate views, and that will not help any of us.

NWSTG. Well said Sir.

[ACW342]

Without wishing to introduce facts into this discussion I would suggest that PPruNers investigate a little closer. Please see here:Victims' commissioner says PM's facts 'incorrect' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44088827)

[Out Of Trim]

I've not seen any Serviceman's victims families having the terrorists' responsible, being investigated in this new tranche of revenge investigation. Funny that!

This fantasy set of new investigations needs to end, or cancel the Good Friday Agreement forthwith!

[Finningley Boy]

I've not seen any Serviceman's victims families having the terrorists' responsible, being investigated in this new tranche of revenge investigation. Funny that!

This fantasy set of new investigations needs to end, or cancel the Good Friday Agreement forthwith!

A logical and most fair observation, but servicemen are easy meat. The Government have no concerns that ex-servicemen will commence a wave of terrorist atrocities as they fear if they upset those who took up arms, illegally, against the country initially.

FB

[Lascaille]

Without wishing to introduce facts into this discussion I would suggest that PPruNers investigate a little closer. Please see here:Victims' commissioner says PM's facts 'incorrect' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44088827)

Words which say nothing.

Words: "There is no evidence that there has been any systematic or unsystematic targeting of state forces."

Meaning: "We target based on known actions, not status or identity."

Result: 100% targeting of state forces personnel - the only guys there operating publicly, keeping records, and cooperating with the system.

[mopardave]

Twas ever thus.....armed forces personnel have been used, thrown under a bus and discarded throughout history. I was so happy when MD junior decided there was no future in it when they were busy throwing babies out with the bath water back in 2010! I sincerely hope that there is "no chance of a conviction".....but that's not really the point. Dennis Hutchings and his family must be going through hell.....I'd like to blame Bliar but sadly, politicians of all shades will have their "dabs" all over this. Shame on them!

[Wander00]

Funny, Hyde Park "bomber" gets letter telling he won't be prosecuted, and he cannot be. Serviceman told he won't be prosecuted and is. Sounds a bit one-way to me

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

ACW342,


As you quite rightly say, it is important to investigate closer.


Lets start with the info-graphic presented in the article you provided a link to: - 530 + 271 + 354 + 33 = 1188, not 1118 as stated by the BBC. It's not exactly rocket science.


Problem with the casualty figures is trying to get an accurate number, on anything.


Michael McKeown (CAIN Database, 2009):-


Killed by republican terrorists = 2013

Killed by loyalist terrorists = 1018

Killed by "other" = 214

Killed by Security Forces = 378


Malcom Sutton (CAIN Database, 2002):-


Killed by republican terrorists = 2057

Killed by loyalist terrorists = 1027

Killed by "other" = 80

Killed by Security Forces = 363


Quite some discrepancy between figures. As I'm sure you are aware, the situation in Northern Ireland is still active, and further killings have taken place, but these do not come within the remit of "Legacy" killings.


Let us look again at the figures concerning the PSNI "Legacy" investigations quoted by the BBC, bearing in mind that it is not entirely clear what the BBC are talking about - in one paragraph they state it is 1700 killings, but in the info-graphic they state, wrongly, "1118".


Killed by republican terrorists = 530

Killed by loyalist terrorists = 271

Killed by "other"/ u/k = 33

Killed by Security Forces = 354


Is it just me that see's a theme here???


To put it in context, yes, the PSNI Historical Enquiry Team did re-investigate the following killings:-


Deaths by republican terrorists = 1038

Deaths by loyalist terrorists = 536

Deaths by unknown = 9

Deaths by Security Forces = 32


The re-investigations by HET of deaths by Security Forces were regarded as "flawed", and re-reinvestigated by the PSNI Legacy Unit. Not so with the terrorist killings.....