RAF Beards...?

[Corrona]

I'm hearing murmurings that beards in the RAF are soon to be acceptable without needing to blag a 'sensitive skin' chit from the SMO. Anyone in a position to substantiate the rumour?

[sitigeltfel]

Apart from Sikhs, I only new of one airman excused shaving. On the one occasion he was told to shave to prove his skin was sensitive it was suspected that he used something irritant to bring up a rash and continue with his beard.

[Bob Viking]

A guy on my flight at IOT had one. To be fair though he probably only needed to shave once a week anyway.

Before everyone jumps in with the ‘standards have slipped’ rubbish I think it would be a good move and reflective of modern attitudes.

Maybe the next step could be to ditch the Hitech Silver Shadows and ironed shorts at basic training. Or has that already happened?!

BV

[BEagle]

A new Cdt Plt in my UAS student times appeared with a beard. A bit of a poseur, he also affected a triple-barrelled surname. He was tolerated until the new boss arrived. Who addressed him by the third element of his surname and told him to produce a medical reason for having a beard. "Otherwise you have 2 choices - it goes or you go". He failed to produce a chit, so was soon off the squadron. No loss really.

When I was a QFI, one of my new students was a Sikh. So one day I rang clothing stores and requested that they obtained an official RAF-pattern turban, Sikhs for the use of. "A what, Sir?" said the stores chap. So I repeated myself and he agreed to put in a demand....

….some weeks later, my phone rang and the stores chap announced "The turban is now in stores, Sir - if you could ask the Sikh lad to come down and sign for it" . "Ahh - bit of a problem there, sorry - the CFI chopped him a week ago". "So what am I supposed to do with this effing turban, Sir?" …… "Seek out another Sikh, perhaps?".

It was probably still gathering dust in stores when Abingdon closed....:hmm:

[Vendee]

Maybe the next step could be to ditch the Hitech Silver Shadows

You mean the white plimsolls have gone?

[MPN11]

There was an aircrew officer at Tengah in the late 60s with a beard ... sensitive skin case. I have to say it looked really strange!

[teeteringhead]

Must be in anticipation of making Prince Harry an Honorary Air Commodore of somewhere........

......... although Prince Michael wears a beard in his RAF uniform ......

https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5470/9391113097_41a80430da_b.jpg

..... and "no shaving" chits might not be all they're cracked up to be. Many years ago I returned from a long exped (OK - camping in the sun!) with quite a respectable beard (NB oxymoron!). My neighbour was the MO whose rection was:

"Cracking beard Teeters! ..... Do you want a chit to keep it??"

[Timelord]

A certain Vulcan captain had a beard of dubious legality when he ejected. His first action on arriving at Nocton Hall was to shave it off before the BOI arrived.

[Tengah Type]

MPN11
There was a Navigator at Tengah in 64/65 who had a well trimmed Naval style ginger beard. He was on an exchange tour with the FAA and disembarked from a carrier.
He had requested "Permission to grow" for the carrier (HMS Victorious?) captain, who unaware of RAF regs, had given permission. Eventually had to give it up.
Was this the guy you were thinking off?

[4mastacker]

Never mind the beard, is that the correct sword belt for a 3* in #7? He needs to learn how to fasten his tie as well.

[Danny42C]

On a Course at a RAF Ski School in Gulmarg (Kashmir) in December 1945, it was so cold that shaving was painful. There was a blanket "permission to grow" for the month of the Course. Results were not impressive.

On return down to the warm plains of India, you had to get rid of whatever beard you'd grown. Best to get a professional to do the job!

[camelspyyder]

Everyone I knew with a permanent "beard chit" in the RAF gleefully shaved it off at their retirement point.
One even came back to work in the same office as a clean shaven civil servant.
Well done Frank K!

[goudie]

For some reason, which I cannot fathom, beards seem to suit navy types but not, I think, those in the RAF or Army.
I was interviewed for job by a chap with a beard, when I left the RAF and felt most uncomfortable, having been used to clean shaven chaps.

[Vortex_Generator]

In these enlightened times, if Sikhs & Muslims are allowed beards then so should everyone else be. Can't be seen to be practising religious discrimination!

[Whenurhappy]

Never mind the beard, is that the correct sword belt for a 3* in #7? He needs to learn how to fasten his tie as well.

And that's a non-Air Rank Sword, too.

​​​​​​​Just saying.

[2 TWU]

There was an F4 nav with permanent beard---- known as the talking armpit.

[MPN11]

@ Tengah Type ... no, t the best of my recollection he was an RAF Nav on 81 Sqn

[rolling20]

On a pleasant detachment with 115 Squadron, as the Paras came back to Brize from the victory down south, there was a bearded Nav on one of my joy rides in the Andover. I was fascinated by his full set, as I had never seen one on my time in the UAS. Having been told you had to have a medical reason to wear one, I wondered what was up with said Nav. He looked the picture of health to me. Alas he decided I wasn't worth acknowledging and I never found out why he was sporting the facial hair.

[NutLoose]

Cpl at Odious had one, he was required to shave it off for his sensitive skin inspection, just after he shaved it off I saw him splashing it all over, not 'enry's favourite, but Avtur, he went down for his inspection looking like a freshly skinned peach, chit reissued.

[parabellum]

In the British Army the only person who would normally have a beard on parade would be the Pioneer Sergeant, complete with butchers leather apron and highly polished axe. The French Foreign Legion, when on Bastille Day parades, march past with up to thirty six pioneers, all with leather aprons and beards.

[BEagle]

Indeed! It would be a very brave and utterly stupid person who dared to suggest to Les Képis Blancs that the aprons and beards aren't very military...

https://youtu.be/rGSfdKxMhEQ


Tiens, voilà du boudin, voilà du boudin, voilà du boudin

[Union Jack]

In the British Army the only person who would normally have a beard on parade would be the Pioneer Sergeant, complete with butchers leather apron and highly polished axe.
..... together with pipe majors in Scottish regiments, as well as some drum majors and personal pipers, and of course those allowed to wear a set for religious reasons.

Jack (aka Jock)

[Tankertrashnav]

Former kipper fleet members may remember a Welsh Nimrod captain who sported a very impressive beard. I only got got to know him after he retired but I remember passing him in the street in uniform once when he was still serving and doing a quick double take as it looked so bizarre.

Sword belt and tie apart, I think The Duke of Kent looks pretty good with the beard. Strong family resemblance to the Czar (Nicholas II, not Putin!)

[parabellum]

..... together with pipe majors in Scottish regiments, as well as some drum majors and personal pipers

Yes Jock, I forgot about them! :)

[4Greens]

Beards may interfere with the use of an oxygen mask.

[BEagle]

4Greens, I've often heard that - but it didn't seem to be an issue for a certain well-known naval Sea Harrier pilot...:confused:

[Tengah Type]

4Greens
Did not appear to be a problem for the Luftwaffe F104 pilots in the 60's. They could often be seen with beards similar to the "Greybeard" legionnaire on the March Past clip.
Coupled with waist length hair and an orange coloured flying suit, they seemed quite exotic creatures to us RAF types in our blue flying suits and "short back and sides" haircuts.https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon6.gif

[Bob Viking]

Thats just not true I’m afraid. Trust me.

BV

[beardy]

Thats just not true I’m afraid. Trust me.

BV


Well the US Navy and the FAA among others think it is true
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22765

[tescoapp]

Its nothing to do with o2 leaks that they ban facial hair with O2 masks. Although if you have hydrocarbons on your clothes it can flash combust them.

Its all to do with partial pressure of O2 required to flash burn the rotten food and other deposits in said facial hair.

Suggest you soak some horse hair in bacon grease/dripping and then blow 100% oxygen over it. And see what happens.

Oxygen also has a habit of burning up the flow and can and does set the regulator on fire as well. So you can end up with a burning lump of aluminium and you breathing the fumes in the mask.

I suppose you could say you could have a beard but enforce a degreasing wash of the facial hair before flight.

Didn't one of the Apollo crews get cooked alive in a pure o2 fire while doing preflight checks?

[pamac51]

I seem to recall that a permanent 'no shaving chit' had to be signed off by a 1* Medical Officer.

[Old-Duffer]

If male personnel are allowed beards because it would be religious discrimination not to allow them, then it will be sexual discrimination if females weren't allowed beards.

[teeteringhead]

Good point O-D; as WRNS are now all RN, perhaps it is already so with them?

[Bob Viking]

I have no links to prove otherwise but I can only speak from personal experience I’m afraid.

That is that I, and many of my colleagues, fly with an Oxygen mask and a beard on a daily basis. I have yet to experience spontaneous combustion or hypoxia as a result.

I will I’ll ask around work this week and see if anyone has experienced a burning face or death from hypoxia and get back to you.

BV

[NRU74]

I seem to recall that a permanent 'no shaving chit' had to be signed off by a 1* Medical Officer.

Not in the mid 1960’s.
A Flt Lt Medical Officer gave the authority. No chit issued/carried. New F1250 obtained. Anyone querying it politely asked to ring Sick Quarters and check.(Not sure how such disclosure of medical history would work now, or later this month when the GDPR come into force)
Not a problem using an oxygen mask either.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jock ATC at Lossie, retired, became OC Tain. Beard both before and after retirement.

The other trick though was no-shave chit before going on leave. On return with a full set you could not shave until inspected by MO and given clean bill of health :)

[cptkris]

That AC was issued in 87 and is based on research from the 60s and 70s if you check the sources. It also doesn’t specify the amount of hair in the tests but since it makes mention that “demand type masks many times cannot he donned rapidly...” it reads to me that it was fairly substantial amounts of hair present.

anyone know of more current research, or accidents relating to this directly? My face is cold...

[Mogwi]

Still got a mine - in an OHMS envelope, together with other memorabilia from '82. Must be worth a fortune by now! Can't remember suffering from spontaneous combustion or hypoxia. Mind you, it was never THAT good.

[BEagle]

Tengah Type, I must admit that I find the idea of a ZZ Top look alike climbing out of an F-104G in front of RAF slug-balancers quite hilarious....

(Good TBs at the Rose and Crown last Thursday!)

[jindabyne]

Taken at Honington in 1977. Skin infection, medically authorised, no chit. Allowed to fly unhindered. Then Boss not happy! Do not resemble that profile nowadays :uhoh:

https://www.pprune.org/members/93427-jindabyne-albums-grotsbie-s-picture1235-me.jpg

[BEagle]

Surely that's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in his earlier days?

Ahmadinejinda' ?

[jindabyne]

Ahmalinemess more like!

No probs with beards in the Services. But wouldn't advocate Prince Mike as any role model.:*

[reynoldsno1]

Former kipper fleet members may remember a Welsh Nimrod captain who sported a very impressive beard
In the 70's there were two navs at Kinloss who also had beards - one of them was myself.

[The Oberon]

Part of the February Carnival at Goose Bay was a beard growing competition. 2 airmen and 2 SNCOs allowed to grow a set. They had to be clean shaven 28 days before the event, I can't remember what the prize was but you could probably drink it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Part of the February Carnival at Goose Bay was a beard growing competition. 2 airmen and 2 SNCOs allowed to grow a set. They had to be clean shaven 28 days before the event, I can't remember what the prize was but you could probably drink it.
Remember Rule 1 - must shave if you leave the Goose.

Rule 2 - get anyone with longer beard detached even for the day :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Its all to do with partial pressure of O2 required to flash burn the rotten food and other deposits in said facial hair ... I suppose you could say you could have a beard but enforce a degreasing wash of the facial hair before flight.

As a long time beard wearer I am somewhat miffed at the suggestion that my beard contains rotten food and is greasy. I shower every morning (at least) and invariably shampoo my beard and hair (what's left of it). A woman I was talking to once said she didn't like beards as they were "unhygienic". I suggested that if she was like most women she would probably only wash her hair every 3 - 4 days, and so my beard was probably a lot more hygienic than her hair. Didn't go down too well. In any case FAA aircrew on F4s often sported beards and as far as I know they didn't have any problems.

[fergineer]

Had my beard from 83 till 96 in the mob and kept it through civil flying till 04 and still have one today just a lot greyer.

[alwayslookingup]

In the 70s my Father was allowed to grow a beard and his hair before going to Republic of Ireland to visit family. I have some pics of him at the time looking curiously rakish. Hair wasn't very much longer than service length, just enough to not stand out as a British serviceman when in the South. "Modified Grooming Standards" I believe was the provision.

[cats_five]

<snip>
I suggested that if she was like most women she would probably only wash her hair every 3 - 4 days
<snip>.

A great many women wash their hair every day. The days of having it 'done' once a week and not washing it in-between ended some time in the 80s

[Tankertrashnav]

Check out your local Boots or similar. Shower caps still on the shelves. Mrs TTN has very long hair and washes hers about every 3 days as it takes an age to dry. It's straight, so she hasnt "had it done" (other than cut occasionally) once in the 50 years I've known her - just brushes/combs it herself.

[Pontius Navigator]

A great many women wash their hair every day. The days of having it 'done' once a week and not washing it in-between ended some time in the 80s
digressing from beards, in the late 50s and early 60s, One on, one clean and one in the laundry was the rule. At least showers were available but generally used as needed as there was not enough time/showers for everyone and same with baths.

Like cigarette smoke we must have stunk.

Although we had 3 flying suits, one was for QRA/Flying, one all badged up for 'best' , and one temperate climate suit. It needed Flying Clothing to remove the knife before laundering so that was a rare event too.

Luxury was the post-flight shower and big fluffy towels provided by the Flying Clothing team - not everyone availed themselves of this freebie.

[rolling20]

I remember reading somewhere Pontius, that it wasn’t until the Yanks came over here in WW2 , that we got into the habit of bathing more than once a week. My 8th Army veteran grandfather, often talked with affection of the time he was able to use a mobile Yankee Bath unit in Italy. He never mentioned the facilities that the 8th Army provided however.

[Melchett01]

If male personnel are allowed beards because it would be religious discrimination not to allow them, then it will be sexual discrimination if females weren't allowed beards.

To be honest, when I saw the title of the thread, I did wonder if the OP was being brave and referring to the Urban Dictionary’s definition of a beard!

[Q-SKI]

A long, long time ago in a far away universe, I remember a 33 Sqn pilot with beard.

[CWO Geoff]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/666x1024/image89_45676044bde727040e09756100a0a9645e87ceb4.png

Recent photo of Prince Henry
The Duke of Kent looks really happy to attend this event. However, I think that he needs to go back to basic officer training to learn how to tie his tie and to salute properly. He should have been airbrushed out of the picture.
What military regulation enables Prince Henry to wear a full beard whilst in RAF uniform?
What are the shoulder titles that he is wearing on that uniform? RAF Regiment?
Why does he wear a sword belt sans sword, scabbard and scabbard slings?
Why does he wear army wings on his ceremonial RAF uniform?

[Pontius Navigator]

Air Commandant RAF Honington.

I remember years ago that Boots Griffiths, at Air Commandant also wore shoulder boards even as he had been a GD/P.

[The Oberon]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/299x599/299px_george_v_in_the_uniform_of_a_marshal_of_the_raf_c4fa60 0f80300d85fe9b4014316f511107778dda.jpg
The precedent for beards was set in the mid 30s when KGV was MRAF.


I understand that regardless of uniform, the wings worn are the ones belonging to the service in which they were awarded. Army for Prince Harry, RAF for Prince William and RN for Prince Andrew.

[Big Bad Dave]

BEagle

I was on the last Jag Major at Abingdon & I was wondering about the new style of Kimwipe that we got from stores!!

[MPN11]

Air Commandant RAF Honington.

I remember years ago that Boots Griffiths, at Air Commandant also wore shoulder boards even as he had been a GD/P.
ISTR that Griffiths had been CG RAF Regt.

[teeteringhead]

On Wings (sorry BEags - "The Flying Badge") not beards.

I once had to research the rules on Wings on Uniforms for a specific case - this was about 15-20 years ago so I don't know if still true.

Can't remember the reference either - maybe P1 ceremonial? - but I do recall the answer was as follows:

Army and RAF Wings only may be worn on RAF or Army uniforms. RN Wings may be worn on neither.

RN Wings may be worn on RN or RM uniforms only. Army Wings may be worn on RM uniforms.

Never did get the answer about RAF wings on RM ............

So Harry Sussex's wings are kosher - not so sure about the face fungus though.

[Danny42C]

Regarding #56,

(a) Harry's RAF Uniform fits like an old sack ("nice bit of stuff - when are you going to have it made up ?")

(b) When I was serving, beards were a no-no (Kings excepted !) Only exception I ever knew: in India on the RAF Ski School in Kashmir it was so cold that we were allowed to grow for the duration of the month's Course (results were varied).

(c) The ?-star chap appearing behind Harry and Megan clearly shows his disgust of the whole proceedings !

(d) I take it that the rest of the party are all RAAF (??) So have they given up that rich dark blue they used to wear ?

Just asking.

[SASless]

Me thinks that sour puss in the rear is just showing his envy for the fine Bird that young man has pulled!

He also is considering there is Rank....and there is Rank and he is very much down on the Totem Pole as compared to Junior.:uhoh:

[GeeRam]

(c) The ?-star chap appearing behind Harry and Megan clearly shows his disgust of the whole proceedings !


As already mentioned, its the Duke of Kent, his father being killed in RAF service in 1942 in the crash of a Short Sunderland in Scotland.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Could it be that Harry has declined to join Kent's merry band of fellows with the funny handshakes?

[BEagle]

Give the Duke of Kent a break - poor chap suffered a stroke a few years ago and is in his 80s now.

Prince Harry is one of those people who always seems to look ill-at-ease in formal clothes or uniforms and that face fungus does him no favours.

I see the Royal Family still refuses to use the Windsor knot - even though it's required in the AP for RAF uniforms. But I guess when it's Harry's grandmother's train set, they're allowed some leeway.

I recall the Admin Order for those attending the Silver Jubilee parade at Finningley in 1977 required Officers to wear gold cuff links with their shirts. I doubt whether the same applied to Sleepy Fred - and I'm glad that I managed to escape it.

[Tankertrashnav]

Could it be that Harry has declined to join Kent's merry band of fellows with the funny handshakes?



Would that be the merry band of fellows who gave away over £20 million to charities with no masonic connection last year? That sum includes the £2m raised by London Freemasons to purchase a new helicopter for London Air Ambulance. I would have thought that as a former helicopter pilot Harry would have rather approved, especially as he is also into charitable giving.

When I was a rockape the depot was at Catterick and although the station commander was referred to as the commandant there was no such post as Honorary Air Commandant, the appointment currently held by Prince Harry.

At the time the position of Commandant General of the RAF Regiment was normally held by a two star GD officer, the most senior regiment officer being an air commodore. In my time I remember the CG was AVM Bernard Chacksfield, who was a GD (P) and he certainly wore regiment flashes.

[CWO Geoff]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/235x353/image127_ecc50641744815d1362e94c80b58540ae05b083e.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/339x700/image141_fa4520202ab6fd0300c030922dd6f30e3644bf1f.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/313x279/image142_503bb4634889684d41e7a53b4bdf03f217b012c0.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/377x602/image129_a6775f9e81c50daa5833e2ffdbac84d0a2f38adc.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/198x297/image113_dfd79393fff7a4ef3e7f5f1fc798f82e05184a0a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/200x300/image118_2e56cedaf47ab7d436af629737273b10e1e95475.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/292x270/image124_0b66475fa83218a4ad150394b72d9ba993ae47e3.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/223x304/image145_505c5419a9a66580cb93a127a7063e420cf242a8.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/225x300/image123_59bb211b5c020adca765a8610a8c736071a34927.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/255x338/image119_c4f5ccd759719ea3f8a8d9751fd12847c635bb0d.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/273x290/image163_1cd9a58e44430bc28260f4e4a600d259df9b874a.jpg
I understand that regardless of uniform, the wings worn are the ones belonging to the service in which they were awarded. Army for Prince Harry, RAF for Prince William and RN for Prince Andrew.
I believe that the various members of the Royal Family were awarded wings as per the annotations below.
Duke of Edinburgh - RAF
Prince Charles- RAF
Prince Andrew - RN
Prince William - RAF
Prince Henry - Army
Duke of Kent - ??? (With whom and when?)
Prince Michael of Kent - ??? (With whom and when?)

How does the above quote stand in light of the following images showing...
Prince Phillip with Army and RN wings,
Prince Charles with RN and Army wings,
Prince Andrew with RAF and Army wings,
Duke of Kent with RAF and no wings, and
Prince Michael of Kent with RAF, Army and RN wings?




.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, as Commandant is a post not a rank I think they made Harry a Commandant as he does not have sufficient seniority to be a Commodore. When it was first introduced there were enough senior Royals.

However I see he is a Naval Commodore. Edward is a Colonel and also a Commodore at Waddington, so I am not sure.

The link is a fascinating summary of military service. I wonder why Andrew has so few medals compared with his younger brother.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service_by_British_royalty

[BVRAAM]

Thats just not true I’m afraid. Trust me.

BV

I know of a former RN chap from another hobby of mine that flew the SHAR and recently just left the RN (again) after flying the T2 at Valley. He has a big bushy beard and when I asked him about it, he told me that all he did was tighten it down for air combat to stop it slipping.

[Il Duce]

I am led to believe that the rules for beards (when the RAF get around to allowing them) will be that the individual has to take two weeks off to allow for the full set to grow (can't have people at work looking unkempt). If on return to duty the facial hair does not past muster - SWO's inspection? - scrape it off. And the same rules will apply to the men!

[Davef68]

The link is a fascinating summary of military service. I wonder why Andrew has so few medals compared with his younger brother.


I suspect he wears the ones he actually earned, rather than was awarded. Edward no doubt got many for his involvement with the DofE award scheme and the Commonwealth organisations

[Pontius Navigator]

Perhaps mummy won't allow him to wear golfing medals☺

[Tankertrashnav]

P-N - Actually there is little disparity the two brothers' medals. To summarise, Andy now has 7 British orders and medals, including the South Atlantic Medal with rosette, and three Commonwealth awards, but he also has 3 foreign awards which would only be worn on certain occasions. Edward has four British medals and six from the Commonwealth but as far as I can discover no foreign awards so far.

Checking my figures for these I also discovered that Prince Edward is Honorary Air Commandant of RAF Waddington.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, joke, but thanks for the update, clearly Wiki is selective as lower down the page there are obviously many omissions.

[MPN11]

I’m slightly surprised by the generousity of the Canadians, awarding medals and Coloncies/Colonelcies in all directions.

[langleybaston]

I had a coloncy thing a couple of years ago,
Pain in the ar^e it was.

[OldnDaft]

Looks like new policy wef 1 Sep 19 - same rules as the Navy. IBN to follow.

[Training Risky]

I am amazed that this gem from 1982 hasn't surfaced in this thread yet! Moggy - are you still out there?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x678/dave_morgan_d6a4054f9c4179cdb7dd985ef556eeb85e2ba80d.jpg

[Parson]

For some reason, which I cannot fathom, beards seem to suit navy types but not, I think, those in the RAF or Army.

Seemed to suit my Action Man though :)

[Melchett01]

Looks like new policy wef 1 Sep 19 - same rules as the Navy. IBN to follow.

Oh deep joy. We’re going to be knee deep in SF and SAD operator impersonators. You just know there’ll be one on every camp.

[GlassCollector]

Oh deep joy. We’re going to be knee deep in SF and SAD operator impersonators. You just know there’ll be one on every camp.

Surely SF will now have to go for a clean shaven / clean cut look in order to differentiate themselves...

[Melchett01]

Surely SF will now have to go for a clean shaven / clean cut look in order to differentiate themselves...

You may or may not be surprised when I say that not only do military personnel stand out in a crowd, you can generally identify the tribe quite easily. Assuming we haven’t all gone to seed, officers tend to be reasonably slim and favour running. ORs tend to favour the weights and so are more muscular. Army officers often go with very traditional attire whilst RAF officers are obvious off duty the usual blue shirt/chinos combo. SF types tend to go for the outdooorsey look with a swagger, easy smile and ready confidence, and when on Ops standout an absolute mile due to their lack of rank or badges on uniform. And Harrier pilots (this was told to me a while back) are obvious because they tell you within the first 2 minutes.

And that was the view of a FCO chapess I was having drinks with on det a while back!

[dctyke]

i see that from 1st September RAF personnel will be allowed beards. Pull pin and stand clear!

[Capt Kremmen]

That might be ok for the girls but, what about the blokes ?

[Background Noise]

Already discussed here: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/608688-raf-beards.html

[dctyke]

That was discussing folks in the past raf who for one reason or another had beards. This was released this week saying all serving personnel could have them. I just reckoned it needed a thread. However if mods want to merge feel free.

[MPN11]

It’s News but I guess the merge makes sense to some.

[ShyTorque]

What's good enough for Prince Harry..

One reason that "Cold War" beards were not allowed was that the NBC respirator couldn't be guaranteed to seal over a beard. Those "Work of the devil" AR5 Respirators would be OK though - it you could operate efficiently with your head inside a rubber bag, with jets of cold air blowing into your eyes, that is.

[ex82watcher]

I went to a wedding a year ago,where the groom,an RAF pilot in uniform,was wearing a full (ginger) set.

[gizmo71]

I went to a wedding a year ago,where the groom,an RAF pilot in uniform,was wearing a full (ginger) set.

According to the BBC, he had a note from his mum. Or should that be his mam?

[ex82watcher]

Gizmo,It was not THAT wedding !

[ExAscoteer]

That might be ok for the girls but, what about the blokes ?

Really?

The 1950's just called, apparently they want their sexist back.

[gijoe]

Confirmation that there is nothing military whatsoever about the RAF.

RN...tradition at sea.
Army..med reasons only.
RAF...to widen the pool of civvy recruits that can recruit more civvies in uniform from.

[Top Bunk Tester]

FFS when will the hierarchy open their eyes and realise that it’s not this sort of **** that will improve recruitment. What will improve it is honouring the Military Covenant, giving the forces the funds to do their job, and increasing the manpower to allow the things that used to make the military an enjoyable and worthwhile “career” and not the short term “job” that it has become. And whist you’re at it bring back Crown Indemnity.

[Lima Juliet]

If we’re talking Aircrew there is no recruitment problem - we’re awash with great recruits. The issue for this cadre in recent years has been training them with a training system designed in 2003, wound back in SDSR10 and then wound back up again in SDSR15. Then in 2017 replacing just about every training aircraft type, simulator and syllabus in about an 18 month window. Guess what? It’s been a total cluster! It’s finally just starting to start churning out what we need.

[dctyke]

will serving personnel be issued with a non permanent marker pen for their id's so they can draw a beard for the days they can't be arsed to shave. ��

[BEagle]

Wee Stevie, one of 56(F)'s navigators in the early '80s, went flying one night, leaving his car keys, F1250, cash etc. in his SD cap in the locker room....

Came the next day and as he showed his F1250 to the lad on the gate, the latter burst out laughing. "What's so funny, airman?" asked WS....

To which the lad merely showed him the F1250 - a little chinagraph work (courtesy of J***y U**n ?) had transformed it with beard, glasses, long hair and devil's horns. He did at least see the funny side!

Back in the '60s, a chap at some nuclear research place got fed up with being required to wear a photo ID on his coat whilst at work. So he modified it with a different photograph....

...of Nikita Kruschev! It was several weeks before this was noticed, whereupon he was promptly invited to find a new job.

[dctyke]

Wee Stevie, one of 56(F)'s navigators in the early '80s, went flying one night, leaving his car keys, F1250, cash etc. in his SD cap in the locker room....

Came the next day and as he showed his F1250 to the lad on the gate, the latter burst out laughing. "What's so funny, airman?" asked WS....

To which the lad merely showed him the F1250 - a little chinagraph work (courtesy of J***y U**n ?) had transformed it with beard, glasses, long hair and devil's horns. He did at least see the funny side!

Back in the '60s, a chap at some nuclear research place got fed up with being required to wear a photo ID on his coat whilst at work. So he modified it with a different photograph....

...of Nikita Kruschev! It was several weeks before this was noticed, whereupon he was promptly invited to find a new job.


had a West Indian mate who worked in the SSA at laarbruch in the 70's, his pass had colour of eyes black, colour of hair blue. Nobody noticed for weeks, the police didn't see the funny side.

[Davef68]

Are the thoughts behind this to encourage more people from minority communities where beards are traditional (rather than a religious requirememt, such as Sikhism) - so potentially more recruits from Arab/South Asian predominantly Muslim backgrounds. Or are they after the hipster youth of today?

Be interested to see if beards are accepted at intial entry, as I understand RN requirements are for clean shaven at that point.

[Bladdered]

Harri S...h on 36IOT in 1979 had been recoursed to us due to various problems that were not anything to do with his ability or confidence. Harri decided on being recourse that he would play them at their own game and had turban, beard etc. Great guy who went on to fly Hercs, sadly a bit too low over Swindon.

[downsizer]

Oddly enough not a single airman under my command who has left in the last 5 or so years has cited the lack of beards as a reason for PVRing.

[Parson]

Beards only look right on sailors and Action Man.

[NutLoose]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49313406


So now its out there, will this mean the Navy can have moustaches?

The Army will still need to write to Betty ;)

Prince Harry was given special permission from the Queen (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44175216) to keep his beard during his wedding as he chose to wear his Army uniform during the ceremony.

[Brian W May]

Oh well, further degradation of standards. (Don't bother to harangue as it's water off a duck's back)

Perhaps a measure of how difficult recruitment to HM Forces is nowadays.

I can't imagine why . . .

[Bladdered]

Grief, it will be tattoos next. Ah, think that's been discussed before.

[Eclan]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/299x599/299px_george_v_in_the_uniform_of_a_marshal_of_the_raf_c4fa60 0f80300d85fe9b4014316f511107778dda.jpg


Different guy. No wings but definitely looks related

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/306x500/captainsmith_54c49e65b5ff7b07363cd23436cbfcef1134bb69.jpg

[camelspyyder]

Different guy. No wings but definitely looks related

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/306x500/captainsmith_54c49e65b5ff7b07363cd23436cbfcef1134bb69.jpg
I did not know Edward Smith was Royalty.

Must have been revealed in a new conspiracy theory about his ship that I haven't read yet.

[MPN11]

I have to assume recruiting and retention was going fine in the 60s, otherwise we* would have been allowed shoulder-length hair back then?


* blokes, obviously!

[Tankertrashnav]

[QUOTE]I have to assume recruiting and retention was going fine in the 60s, otherwise we* would have been allowed shoulder-length hair back then?[QUOTE]

Just reminded me of an occasion when we were sitting in the mess dining room at Akrotiri having breakfast when 3 very long haired types in flying suits came and sat at an adjacent table. I thought our very stuffy squadron CO was going to have a stroke, as long hair was a bête noire of his. He was just getting up to administer a huge bollocking to the offending blokes when one of our number pointed out that they were a civvy Canberra crew, who I think flew target facilities aircraft for the Navy from Exeter

[MPN11]

Nice, TTN. :)

I confess during my quasi-civvy times at NATS I may have exceeded the usual RAF norms. A bit ‘Beatle’ could be a good accusation!

[The Oberon]

I have to assume recruiting and retention was going fine in the 60s, otherwise we* would have been allowed shoulder-length hair back then?


* blokes, obviously!

Quite true, I remember, in 1967, as a young JT at Wittering, piling into my old Ford Zephyr with 5 others and driving across to Spalding to see Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd. Must have looked total prats in kaftans and flares with regulation haircuts

[MPN11]

Quite true, I remember, in 1967, as a young JT at Wittering, piling into my old Ford Zephyr with 5 others and driving across to Spalding to see Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd. Must have looked total prats in kaftans and flares with regulation haircuts
Oh, pass the eye bleach! I know exactly how you felt, but by 67 I was at tengah, and close-shorn. It was the heat, you know!. :)

[stevef]

Airmen leave because they're not allowed a beard? What! Perhaps they should grow some b****cks instead. God-knows how they'd have survived in the old Number 2 uniforms and had to share a billet & make bed packs once a year for the AOC's inspection. I can feel the snowflakes melting as I type... :ouch:

[Bob Viking]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that men feel unable to serve because they are not allowed facial fluff.

The change to the rules is a great example of how the RAF feels able to move with the times a little.

Facial hair is perfectly smart and standards are not slipping because beards are now permitted.

Remember. It’s not wrong. It’s just different.

For the record, I have flown a fast jet whilst adorned with a beard for the past two years and the world has not stopped turning.

May I please repeat. Times have changed. This is not the 1950’s any more. For better or worse.

BV

[Runaway Gun]

Yes, but you are a Viking !!!

[FantomZorbin]

Do the bearded folk have to cover the beard in Vaseline (other products are available!) before donning a face-wellie?

[BEagle]

Presumably someone will produce guidance? Otherwise the RAF could find itself with a few ZZ Top lookalikes...

Pony tails next?

[Whenurhappy]

Different guy. No wings but definitely looks related

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/306x500/captainsmith_54c49e65b5ff7b07363cd23436cbfcef1134bb69.jpg
Gosh! Harry's aged a bit

[downsizer]

Presumably someone will produce guidance? Otherwise the RAF could find itself with a few ZZ Top lookalikes...

They have. And we won't.

[orca]

A question or two for those in opposition to face fungus.

Are there any specific triumphs in the RAF’s 100 year history that can be attributed to lack of beards, or where a beard would have eroded the chance of success?

Are there any obvious ways in the 100 years to come that the presence of a beard might spell disaster?

[Bill Macgillivray]

stevef,

Bedpacks once a year!!! Used to be every day when I joined, not a great problem but it did not make us any better/efficient!

Times they are a'changing!

Bill

[heights good]

Presumably someone will produce guidance? Otherwise the RAF could find itself with a few ZZ Top lookalikes...

Pony tails next?

Issued already, it will be the same as Navy regs

[heights good]

Do the bearded folk have to cover the beard in Vaseline (other products are available!) before donning a face-wellie?

complete falacy!

I know a couple of fireman, an SO15 officer and seen plenty SF with beards, none have had issues with smoke/CS getting in due to facial hair.

[downsizer]

A question or two for those in opposition to face fungus.

Are there any specific triumphs in the RAF’s 100 year history that can be attributed to lack of beards, or where a beard would have eroded the chance of success?

Are there any obvious ways in the 100 years to come that the presence of a beard might spell disaster?

I'm 100% certain that some of my check-ins at 5 star hotels wouldn't have run as smoothly were I to have had a "beard".... :ok:

[Davef68]

The RN allows sailors 2 weeks to grow a 'substantial' beard - I could never have done that as after two weeks I have no more than an extended 5 o'clock shadow!

[Melchett01]

The RN allows sailors 2 weeks to grow a 'substantial' beard - I could never have done that as after two weeks I have no more than an extended 5 o'clock shadow!

SWO’s beard parade at RAF Little Snoring late Sep 19
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/530x298/0b868c5f_ef8a_4a05_9536_30c1cb7c6a0e_d740469f858735b5d517cdb d647228a912c83efe.jpeg

[condor17]

Training Risky , he was seen going round and round in a vertical direction yesterday [ Thurs ] . The stude was saying '' Tiger at 8 o'clock low , 8 o'clock high , 8 o'clock low '' etc. 'til energy ran out .

rgds condor .

[gr4techie]

Airmen leave because they're not allowed a beard? What! Perhaps they should grow some b****cks instead. God-knows how they'd have survived in the old Number 2 uniforms and had to share a billet & make bed packs once a year for the AOC's inspection. I can feel the snowflakes melting as I type... :ouch:

Beards alone wont change anything but it was one more thing in a long list of bull**** that only we have to put up with, that civilian occupations don't.

Servicemen PVR because they feel they would be better off working elsewhere. The RAF has to offer some perks to retain people and unfortunately we are haemorrhaging qualified and experienced guys quicker than they can be replaced.

[Wander00]

Oi, careful, I used to live in Little Snoring.....

[Cat Techie]

Oi, careful, I used to live in Little Snoring.....

They put the Valiants out to grass there 55 years ago?

[Ken Scott]

Whilst it would have been preferable to allow this thread to stay dormant it now seems that the RAF’s hierarchy has decreed that beards are not compatible with the wearing of oxygen masks so they are now banned for all aircrew, at least in 1 & 2 Gps. Not sure if it’s ok for those rotary fellows. It seems it is ok for engineers etc who fly on aircraft to be bearded as they are not aircrew, even if they might have to use a mask in an emergency (much like the aircrew then).

I’m sure it all makes sense to somebody but I don’t know whether they will apply the ruling to those who wear beards on religious grounds.

It it will be interesting to see whether they extend the ruling to everyone on the grounds that their respirators might leak. I’m not sure how FAA jet pilots used to/ do cope?

[MPN11]

Oh, what a mess. At least aircrew will be identifiable by being clean-shaven (as gentlemen should be) without having to do high-G manouvres with their hands in the Bar. As for the rest ... tacky!!

[just another jocky]

Whilst it would have been preferable to allow this thread to stay dormant it now seems that the RAF’s hierarchy has decreed that beards are not compatible with the wearing of oxygen masks so they are now banned for all aircrew, at least in 1 & 2 Gps. Not sure if it’s ok for those rotary fellows. It seems it is ok for engineers etc who fly on aircraft to be bearded as they are not aircrew, even if they might have to use a mask in an emergency (much like the aircrew then).

I’m sure it all makes sense to somebody but I don’t know whether they will apply the ruling to those who wear beards on religious grounds.

It it will be interesting to see whether they extend the ruling to everyone on the grounds that their respirators might leak. I’m not sure how FAA jet pilots used to/ do cope?

Still ok for aircrew to have a beard in 22Gp.

[langleybaston]

Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there would be no beards in a high threat NBC environment.

[High_Expect]

If someone wouldn’t mind passing on to the various AOCs that I took two different jets up to above FL400 today, wearing an oxygen mask, avec beard and funnly enough no one died. 95% of my Sqn brethren wear beards and there have been zero reported hypoxia incidence in the Xyears I’ve been here. Recent chamber course proved no issue either including the pre soak. If they don’t agree with the official ruling just say so rather than making up a b*****t excuses.

ok - maybe the term ‘brethren’ isn’t appropriate ;-)

[orca]

No issues whatsoever wearing a beard under an oxygen mask.

[MPN11]

Clearly the problem has long been solved in Nature ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearded_seal

[langleybaston]

Never mind oxygen, think novichok or whatever. If I had a beard, and NBC conditions were possible , I would be looking for a razor. I could always grow another beard if I survived.
Which is not an argument against beards, but an argument to retain the razor.

[Typhoondriver]

I think what is making this such an emotive issue, is the lack of consistency across our organisation.How is it possible in an Air Force that is now so small, that we have VSO's knee jerking and coming to seemingly contradictory conclusions. Over the last 2 weeks there's been a myriad of different permutations to the beard / oxygen mask rulings, the latest being (I think):-

- All 1 Gp FJ pilots (Navy and RAF) are prohibited from wearing beards in aircraft that require oxygen masks. It's a simple issue of Flight Safety, and the risk to the relevant ODH/DDH is intolerable.
- All 22 Gp pilots may however, continue to wear beards with oxygen masks. Presumably the Hawk and Texan don't have a similar Flight Safety issue.
- Ignore the above if your religious beliefs require the wearing of a beard. Clearly, the safety issue no longer exists if 'your god has given you the nod', and the risk now becomes tolerable to the ODH/DDH.
- Presumably naval clearance divers, SF parachutists & NBC personnel may continue to wear beards with their oxygen masks, because that's a different case altogether?
- I'm guessing multi engine crews may continue to wear beards, but must now pass a yearly Combat Shaving Test, to prove they can complete a full shave and Don their emergency oxygen masks in a timely manner, in the event of an explosive decompression?

If the VSOs really are going to start biting off on these very minor issues, citing phrases such as 'ALARP and tolerable' as their justification, it really should apply across the entirety of UK MOD? It really does make you wonder how the brains of some of these VSO individuals work. They've over-reacted to this extreme edge case scenario, yet seem content to ignore all of the really 'meaty' Flight Safety and manpower issues which are not ALARP, and are plain for all to see.

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees.

PS

I do hope the entirety of 1 Gp pilots change their denomination on paper, to make this issue magically disappear.

[langleybaston]

Sikh and ye shall find?

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Air Canada tested beards on their aircrew in 2018 the report is online I believe, it showed no adverse O2 issue with either on demand or pressure systems. This is simply those at the top disagreeing with a policy and using Kneejerk reaction to block the issue.

Basically those at the top of 1Gp/2Gp are so out of touch with reality, they need to adapt and move on from the bloody 1980’s . Here is an idea pay for a study and stop being finger in the air wind blowing response artists !

[orca]

What risk is made more likely or the results more severe by the presence or absence of facial hair?

[MPN11]

Please excuse me dusting off my cobwebs, and failing to comprehend the current civilian ‘fashion’ for facial hair, but ...

It looks untidy and, essentially, cr@p.

[Lima Juliet]

Typhoondriver

Presumably naval clearance divers, SF parachutists & NBC personnel may continue to wear beards with their oxygen masks, because that's a different case altogether?

Navy Regs are in BR3: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/royal-navy-responsive/documents/reference-library/br-3-vol-1/chapter-38.pdf

When the safety of an individual might be jeopardised by his beard or moustache, such as in the wearing of oxygen or gas masks, it shall be modified in such a fashion as to accommodate the type of equipment to be worn. The Commanding Officer retains the authority to determine the requirement for an individual to shave, based on the Operational requirement at that time. Once ARTS testing has been completed, COs ARE to order the shaving of beards when the CBRN threat level is MEDIUM or higher. Other occasions, such as Operational Sea Training and/or similar exercises, in which the CBRN threat is LOW will not warrant the requirement to shave. If the individual refuses to modify their facial hair (or headdress) to the extent necessary to maintain their own safety and Operational Capability, then they may be disciplined. Should they continue to refuse, commanders should consider not deploying that individual into theatre or removing them from theatre if already deployed. Disciplinary action and non-deployment are in extremis measures that should be adopted incrementally.

Beards or moustaches shall be shaved off if the conditions of Para 3818 sub para e cannot be met.

This is their regulation for Sikhs:

The hair and beard may remain uncut, provided that the operational mission and safety are not jeopardised when it is required that individuals wear occupational and operational equipment such as a respirator, oxygen mask, combat/vehicle/flying helmet, hardhat, diving mask etc. When a hazard clearly exists, the hair and/or beard shall be modified to the degree necessary for wearing the required equipment, in order to meet safety requirements.

I know there has been issues with SF HALO jumpers that have to shave otherwise they won’t achieve a seal - that may also be for pre-breath too. So really, your point holds little evidence that the other Services don’t have to shave it or you won’t be able to do it policies. :ok:

Oh, and RAF Firefighters were forbidden to have beards under the current recent RAF beard policy - quite why the fools that released the policy didn’t listen to the advice on beard grooming products and needing ‘leak and flow’ checks as part of the process, is just beyond me. They did and now we find ourselves in this mess when common sense, and extant RN regulation, showed that there has been problems and hence regulation written to prevent it.

As ever, myth and b0ll0x and being away from RN CoCS has thwarted the truth of policy on RN beards.

Finally, why anyone would want to look like a scruffy Matelot or a similarly scruffy MP from Islington is beyond me too...:E

[Just This Once...]

Really? Never noticed anyone with a beard having an issue with HAHO jumps. Getting to the ramp edge with all the equipment can be a massive challenge, but the beard is trivial. Quite a few that operate the front end have been known to wear a beard and cope with the pre-breathing and beyond just fine.

Beards and AEA is not new, novel or a contentious safety point. It may be new to some in the RAF but that alone does not make it a safety issue. This reminds me of PCS giving us a short jacket rather than a shirt, before making some of us tuck it into our trousers 'like we used to'. Change is just too much for some air officers.

[Tankertrashnav]

and failing to comprehend the current civilian ‘fashion’ for facial hair,

Like all fashions, these come and go. I have a beard, not for any reasons of following fashion (I'm 72 for goodness sake) but because I like it. Beards went out of fashion post WW1 and didn't make a comeback until the 60s, and then only in certain circles. Go back to the 19th century and it seems that any man of note had a "beard you could hide a badger in" if I may quote Blackadder. Funnily enough I have always disliked moustaches (except when accompanied by a beard) and was never tempted to grow one when I was in the RAF, even though it was permitted by regulations.

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav wrote: […]and so my beard was probably a lot more hygienic than her hair. Didn't go down too well[…]

Testing the 'Velcro effect', were you?

[langleybaston]

I used to spend more time than I wanted as SLP in civil airports awaiting flights. One way of amusement was to count beards as people passed by. For adult males it was one in twelve and fairly constant and thus predictable.
Recent Gatwick observation puts it at about one in ten, although designer stubble confuses the matter somewhat.
Not good on politicians, especially women.

[MPN11]

.
Not good on politicians, especially women.
Collecting stats on ladies’ beards could have seriously bad consequences!

BTW, I never vote for a politician with a beard. What are they trying to hide? Or am I just ‘anti-beard’?

[Lima Juliet]

Really? Never noticed anyone with a beard having an issue with HAHO jumps.

Yes, the RSM needed to have a word with one of the TLs to modify his beard for a PAF. Wasn’t too popular, but led to a suitably whacky looking bit of hair that only they would get away with! :}

[Tankertrashnav]

Testing the 'Velcro effect', were you?

:D:D:D

I am reliably informed that such an experiment would not be possible now as most ladies these days are devotees of the razor in that area !

[orca]

Has anyone ever actually done leak and flow checks with and without a beard on O2 masks, firefighting BA or CBRN rig? In the sense that a report would be available identifying the actual (if any) degradation of performance? That would be a far more useful document for the thread than service dress regs.

[Lima Juliet]

Has anyone ever actually done leak and flow checks with and without a beard on O2 masks, firefighting BA or CBRN rig? In the sense that a report would be available identifying the actual (if any) degradation of performance? That would be a far more useful document for the thread than service dress regs.

Try searching on fire fighter breathing apparatus and respiratory protection equipment. The HSE has some very good advice on not having a beard - lot’s of global academic and scientific research on that too. Beards are banned by the majority of firefighting duties (including in the RAF).

Fit testing basics - Respiratory protective equipment (RPE) (http://www.hse.gov.uk/respiratory-protective-equipment/fit-testing-basics.htm)

[Easy Street]

I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg53.pdf):

82 The wearer needs to be clean-shaven around the face seal to achieve an effective fit when using tight-fitting face pieces. Training is a good opportunity to make employees aware of this. If workers have beards, or are unable to be clean-shaven, a tight-fitting device will not be suitable so an appropriate loose-fitting device should be chosen.

From experience with other topics on which the HSE has published guidance (for instance, fatigue management) I know that a very compelling case needs to be made before Duty Holders will go against a HSE ‘should’ (which is similar in meaning and legal effect to a MAA ‘should’). The quote above uses ‘needs’ and ‘will not’ which are unequivocal terms and leave even less (...no) room for manoeuvre. The only ‘should’ in that quote is one that probably excuses religious beards, on the basis that a loose-fitting device is impracticable.

Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against.

[Just This Once...]

The HSE article covers systems that go negative when the wearer breaths in, risking contaminants being drawn in. An aircrew mask has flex seals that use the positive pressure provided by the system to push against the face and ensure that any leaks are outboard - ie the complete reverse of the HSE article.

AvMed have been happy with beards if you can achieve a suitable seal when tested. One presumes that any court case would bring in AvMed experience rather than an HSE document that may be used by a painter and decorator. If you pass the routine check fit with your mask / helmet / headset then all should be good for the DH.

Incidentally, given the care, selective fitting and routine check fits most of us are used to then the civilian side where either a shovel or alien mask with a one-size-fits-nobody rating stuffed in a cubby as part of the basic aircraft fit looks a little more cavalier!

[alfred_the_great]

I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg53.pdf):



From experience with other topics on which the HSE has published guidance (for instance, fatigue management) I know that a very compelling case needs to be made before Duty Holders will go against a HSE ‘should’ (which is similar in meaning and legal effect to a MAA ‘should’). The quote above uses ‘needs’ and ‘will not’ which are unequivocal terms and leave even less (...no) room for manoeuvre. The only ‘should’ in that quote is one that probably excuses religious beards, on the basis that a loose-fitting device is impracticable.

Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against.

what chutney.

RN firefighters (that is to say anyone at sea) are allowed beards. We simply test them to check that the mask fits, and they trim as necessary.

[VinRouge]

I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg53.pdf):



From experience with other topics on which the HSE has published guidance (for instance, fatigue management) I know that a very compelling case needs to be made before Duty Holders will go against a HSE ‘should’ (which is similar in meaning and legal effect to a MAA ‘should’). The quote above uses ‘needs’ and ‘will not’ which are unequivocal terms and leave even less (...no) room for manoeuvre. The only ‘should’ in that quote is one that probably excuses religious beards, on the basis that a loose-fitting device is impracticable.

Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against.
If smoke and Fumes are present, the mask should be delivering a positive overpressure (EMERG) Or has someone missed this point? It’s not a filtering device. Please show me a single service issue, emergency use oxy mask that has a filter?

Plenty of civvie pilots sporting face carpets (other mitigations in place). Not entirely sure that this decision has been particularly well researched from a risk management perspective.

[orca]

LJ,

Deliberately being pedantic - but that link takes me to a page that simply says (at the bottom) that it is impossible to achieve a good seal with facial hair - not how this was found out, how good/ bad a seal could be achieved, when a bad seal mattered at all with the supply as it is...
I can understand why folk may suppose a beard leads to problems - I just don’t think it’s ever been proved scientifically what they are.
If we limit to FJ O2 masks for now does anyone know differently?

[Bob Viking]

Previous posters have already alluded to the fact but I will echo the sentiments. I have spent the last two years flying with facial fluff. Admittedly it’s not exactly a full Brian Blessed but it is definitely a beard.

I have not experienced any issues and regularly operate in a variety of height regimes.

I understand that it polarises opinion but I think it is a welcome change. Besides, I have always hated shaving.

BV

[MPN11]

Regardless of O2 supply/fumes, what’s the perspective on flash fires when the victim has protruding facial hair? Just curious, but I assume increased risk of personal injury.

[Lima Juliet]

Well here is another little FACT, ratter than conjecture. The Voyager aircrew O2 masks have written on the seals themselves “BEARDS WILL NOT SEAL” - so if you were going to be held personally responsible for the decision to allow Aircrew to go against the manufacturer’s warning, what would you do? I also understand that RJ has similar masks and probably other types too.

The latest dictat is supposed to be temporary until RAFCAM can scientifically quantify the risk, I don’t honestly believe there is anything more reasonable that can be done without the evidence. We moved away from “it’ll be alright” after the Nimrod et al and so this latest issue is no different.

[Stitchbitch]

Perhaps RAFCAM might ask the Saudis for some evidence, after all they have been flying in full sets using U.K. oxygen masks since Lightening days. Not sure how Typhoons ADOM masks sit with a beard but P&Q masks seem to work fine.

[orca]

LJ - it appears that we agree; no one has yet scientifically quantified the risk.

MPN11 - conversely I think that the presence of a dense beard would lessen the risk of injury in a flash fire....but that’s just conjecture!

[Easy Street]

Perhaps RAFCAM might ask the Saudis for some evidence, after all they have been flying in full sets using U.K. oxygen masks since Lightening days. Not sure how Typhoons ADOM masks sit with a beard but P&Q masks seem to work fine.

Trouble is, ‘xx thousand hours of incident-free aviation with beards’ is not the type of evidence which counts for anything in matters of safety. Who knows how many near-misses went unreported or even unrecognised? And let’s not even ask about the reporting culture...

Sitting beard-wearing test subjects in a particulate-filled tent while feeding them 100% O2 through a standard regulator and mask and sending the exhaled air through particulate sensors (think respirator testing...) would be a scientific approach. Different conditions of head and jaw movement, mask toggle setting and beard length would need to be tested. I’m not aware of what RAFCAM is doing, by the way, just setting out what seems a cheap and easy experimental approach.

I very much suspect that the overpressure inherent to the 100% setting would render it totally safe, as everyone instinctively seems to know. It doesn’t seem like something that will take long to examine scientifically. But until that’s been done I can understand the unwillingness of Duty Holders to go against a HSE “will not”.

[MPN11]

I may have missed this upthread, but is the RAF actually defining ‘beard’, rather than just long stubble? :)

[langleybaston]

MPN11 - conversely I think that the presence of a dense beard would lessen the risk of injury in a flash fire....but that’s just conjecture![/QUOTE]

At the risk of lowering the tone, one of the acknowledged dangers of igniting flatus is forest fire.
Not, of course, that I have ever participated in, or indeed watched, said exhibition.

[Mil-26Man]

Perhaps RAFCAM might ask the Saudis for some evidence, after all they have been flying in full sets using U.K. oxygen masks since Lightening days.

Just ask the Fleet Air Arm.

[57mm]

And the air forces of the Middle East.......

[Davef68]

Just ask the Fleet Air Arm.

I remember several Falklands Sea Harrier pilots (including one at the time on-loan RAF pilot who posts on here) carrying 'full set' beards by the end of the conflict.

[Mil-26Man]

And the air forces of the Middle East.......

Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. My point was that there is no need to go so far afield when there is ample experience already within the UK military for the RAF to draw upon.

[Whenurhappy]

Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. My point was that there is no need to go so far afield when there is ample experience already within the UK military for the RAF to draw upon.
and, frankly, who here would take safety advice from any Middle Eastern air force?

[Mogwi]

I remember several Falklands Sea Harrier pilots (including one at the time on-loan RAF pilot who posts on here) carrying 'full set' beards by the end of the conflict.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/560x700/falklands_013_c870d7ee183f96b191740053626947ce7e6ecbdb.jpg
OK, not the most luxurious growth!!

[Lima Juliet]

Yes, but without a look-down shoot-down RADAR the FRS1 wasn’t going to sit at FL nosebleed to detect targets - you could probably fly with the window open! :E

This was what kicked off this whole affair - a new beard wearer in a Typhoon started feeling a bit squiffy at FL nosebleed and it was deduced that his beard was the issue by the Squippers. The new, temporary, guidance followed shortly after with an expectation for a scientific qualification that beards should be safe, but until that is done by RAFCAM then it is time to go clean shaven for a bit. I also hear rumour that the poorly pilot had been putting some odd concoction on his face fungous that may well have caused the issue - although that is rumour (this is a rumour network, right?).

[Fareastdriver]

It must have been Brylcreem.

[3 bladed beast]

I just hope the military have got it right on this one and aren't opening themselves up to legal battles.

For instance:

if this is flight safety, will our mil personnel be allowed to fly on air tanker if their civvy pilots have beards?

And I can only presume, we have grounded any students of religious faith from flying in the U.K. as well?

How, exactly do the Navy, the airlines and the rest of the world do it?

And that's just scratching the surface.......

[Easy Street]

It does seem that there is a great deal of emotional investment in this subject, which further undermines the idea that the dearth of reported occurrences proves safety. How many proud beard wearers would report a slight whiff of fumes or mild hypoxia if they thought the rules on face furniture would come under scrutiny as a result? I wonder if that was a consideration in the decision to get RAFCAM on the case with some science rather than relying on ‘incident-free’ history.

And if LJ’s rumour is correct, BZ to the pilot who reported...

[Easy Street]

I just hope the military have got it right on this one and aren't opening themselves up to legal battles.

For instance:

if this is flight safety, will our mil personnel be allowed to fly on air tanker if their civvy pilots have beards?

And I can only presume, we have grounded any students of religious faith from flying in the U.K. as well?

How, exactly do the Navy, the airlines and the rest of the world do it?

And that's just scratching the surface.......

Alternatively, might it be the case that 13 years after the Nimrod accident, the RAF is finally applying more rigour to some aspects of safety than other parts of the aviation sector? The 737 MAX saga shows clearly that civil aviation is not the paragon of virtue that you imply, and there are plenty of other examples. Of course I expect DV and Chug to point out areas where the RAF remains behind (Typhoon TCAS most obviously) but that doesn’t mean it has to lag in all areas.

[3 bladed beast]

Easy street

thats one of the questions answered then.....

what's your thoughts on allowing people to fly on religious grounds, even though ( apparently) a beard is a flight safety issue?

[Easy Street]

Easy street

thats one of the questions answered then.....

what's your thoughts on allowing people to fly on religious grounds, even though ( apparently) a beard is a flight safety issue?

I reckon that’ll be due to the HSE publication (quoted earlier) offering some legal wriggle room in cases where beards “must” be worn.

[3 bladed beast]

I reckon that’ll be due to the HSE publication (quoted earlier) offering some legal wriggle room in cases where beards “must” be worn.

for instance, on medical grounds?!

unless we put religion ahead of medical grounds!?

[Mogwi]

"Yes, but without a look-down shoot-down RADAR the FRS1 wasn’t going to sit at FL nosebleed to detect targets - you could probably fly with the window open! "

It's a fair cop; only got to FL420 once!

Mog

[orca]

A fair comment if you can join the dots between beard and hypoxia

[orca]

Just to clarify the above. I’ve flown LOX, GOX and OBOGS. I’ve flown clean shaven and with a (tatty attempt at) a beard. I’ve had smoke and fumes. I’ve ‘toggled down’ in anger; but I really, really don’t get this one. Whatever happened - if it turns out to be the beard’s fault I will marinate, sauté and then ingest my hat.

[3 bladed beast]

This is all because of a badly thought out policy, terrible implemented and now it's affected people with genuine med conditions who have been flying without incident for years.

If you're telling me that it's fine to fly with a beard on faith and religious grounds vs flying with a genuine medical condition, then that's legal grounds for discrimination.

This is just utter nonsense. Do some testing, on specific masks and make a sensible call.

Just embarrassing.

[langleybaston]

I can’t understand the rationale for allowing it when the risk isn’t solely to the first party. An aircraft crash because of a hypoxic pilot with a beard potentially wipes out third party.

What happens to the second party?

[MPN11]

What happens to the second party?
He’s his Barber, and stays on the ground.

[cptkris]

Beards may interfere with the use of an oxygen mask.
disproven in the university study “The efficacy of oxygen Delivery masks for Commercial Pilots with facial hair” by Sherri Ferguson SFU Canada.

Their summary; “The policy of a clean-shaven face is based on outdated research on obsolete equipment and testing on respirators not intended for aircrew oxygen delivery.”

This study tested oxygen masks from a320 and b767 so not military masks.

[Bing]

A cynic might think all this activity was because it's an area the Duty Holders can actually say they've done something, rather than having to go through all the hoops of justifying spending money to solve an actual safety issue....

[Wyler]

Drove through the local village this afternoon which is where the local RAF Station FMQs are. Saw about 6 or 7 RAF Personnel in uniform and all had beards. Nothing against beards or this relaxing of the rules but it did not look good.

[StopStart]

I do believe the regulations now say that aircrew are to be “clean shaven” so let’s get those moustaches off too please chaps!

lol

[GlassCollector]

I remember how weird airpods looked until I adjusted my datums - now folks with wires stand out!

[Brain Potter]

I do believe the regulations now say that aircrew are to be “clean shaven” so let’s get those moustaches off too please chaps!

lol

What! Slug-balancing is a fundamental aspect of the cultural identity of RAF aircrew.

[Tankertrashnav]

Not when I was in, Brain Potter. I remember back in the 70s the only chap on the station who wore a handle bar moustache was a young equipment officer (as they were then called). He also drove a vintage sports car, and was obviously a frustrated wannabee pilot who was playing the part, as he saw it. Just looked at our 1972 squadron photo and hardly any moustaches are in evidence, thank goodness - never liked them unless part of the "full set"

[just another jocky]

I do believe the regulations now say that aircrew are to be “clean shaven” so let’s get those moustaches off too please chaps!

lol

As mentioned earlier, that is true for those aircrew who require to wear an oxygen mask.

Those that do not are not required to remove their beards.

[orca]

If moustaches and oxygen masks aren’t compatible someone needs to tell the USN immediately...

[3 bladed beast]

What actual testing has been done?

Nothing published.

however Air Canada did a thorough study in 2018. Seems there is no problem.

Will people be able to fly according to their religious beliefs?

No official answer.

Will military personnel be allowed to fly in Air Tanker if their civvy pilots have beards ( the exact plane military pilots can't fly with a beard?) and therefore are they at risk if so?!

No answer.

Just hopeless.

[BVRAAM]

Previous posters have already alluded to the fact but I will echo the sentiments. I have spent the last two years flying with facial fluff. Admittedly it’s not exactly a full Brian Blessed but it is definitely a beard.

I have not experienced any issues and regularly operate in a variety of height regimes.

I understand that it polarises opinion but I think it is a welcome change. Besides, I have always hated shaving.

BV

BV,

I hated shaving too but then I bought a Double Edge razor. It changed the experience for me.

Give it a go. You save a lot of money on blades and cans of foam as well.

[212man]

You save a lot of money on blades and cans of foam as well

Cans of foam? How vulgar.....