Who is making the money out of the $225 million GPS upgrade - SBAS?

[Dick Smith]

I am starting a new thread as this is a completely different issue.

You may remember the thread I started “Flawed advice from Transport Minister McCormack’s office regarding SBAS” (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/607877-flawed-advice-transport-minister-mccormack-s-office-regarding-sbas.html?highlight=flawed+advice) where this statement was made in the Minister’s press release:

“A spokesman for the Infrastructure and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said an SBAS had “the potential to transform air transport in remote and regional Australia.””
On that thread, OZBUSDRIVER stated:

“150 million is bs”
OZBUSDRIVER was implying that I was exaggerating the amount. In fact, it is even more than I had thought - it is actually $225 million.

Now don’t get me wrong – I have always said that it is great technology, but I’m really interested in finding out who is going to benefit from this enormous amount of money? It is clear that someone has the potential to make millions of dollars out of this. Someone managed to get this amount of money without a proper cost benefit study.

Surely we have to get them to spruik to the Government to get some assistance for the flight training and engineer training industries.

At the same time the RFDS is mentioning the huge advantages for them, I have heard that now they will be looking for pilots from overseas using 457 visas.

Just 10% of this amount (say, $22.5 million) could completely revolutionise the flight and LAME training industries in Australia, however there is not a hint that the present Minister is looking at this in any way.

So I ask here. It is quite clear you should follow the money trail. Someone is going to make a motza out of this I would imagine. Who is it? They probably have the best lobbyists in the world. We need to get them into assisting the training industry.

[Lead Balloon]

And bear in mind that “$225 million” is government-speak for “$450 million”.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Under the package, $160.9 million will deliver a Satellite-Based Augmentation System (SBAS) (the technology underpinning GPS) to improve the reliability and the accuracy of positioning data from five metres to 10 centimetres** across Australia and its maritime zone....From Minister Kannavan's press release.

I would hazard even this amount is about a hundred million higher than I would expect, considering a lot of the ground infrastructure is already in place and just needs interfacing across departments and industries. Noting, a facility is already in operation from Canberra, transmitting as a reference station for the MTSAT. An uplink is needed on the west coast...and official representations to the Japanese government, accepting the offer of involvment and access to both networks currently in operation.

....however, I am over the moon this is NOT in the hands of AirServices.

[Jetjr]

I don't fully understand if it delivers exactly whats painted however, a small benefit over massive industries.
If it can really provide 100mm horizontal accuracy across much of the country it will improve performance and reduce costs.
Presently many who use RTK GPS systems for agriculture, fisheries, mining or any natural resource managers would be in for big savings and opportunities.
Even construction would benefit as they use plenty of differential systems for earthworks. A heap of time, effort and expertise spent setting up and managing GPS networks so equipment and others can operate accurately. At a minimum SBAS should make this easier.
There is a CORSNET operating currently but only effective nearby base setups and within high speed data mobile services coverage

From NPIC website
http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigation/positioning-for-the-future/national-positioning-infrastructure
........major productivity improvements for agriculture, mining, engineering, logistics, transportation and location-based services (Figure 2). The gross benefits of precise positioning to the agriculture, mining and construction sectors alone in 2008 were estimated to be between $800 million and $1.5 billion per annum (Allen Consulting, 2008 (http://www.crcsi.com.au/assets/Resources/ffa927a7-55d1-400a-b7d6-9234f4fe4ad2.pdf)).

[alphacentauri]

considering a lot of the ground infrastructure is already in place and just needs interfacing across departments and industries

This is not correct....

[Capn Bloggs]

A heap of time, effort and expertise spent setting up and managing GPS networks so equipment and others can operate accurately. At a minimum SBAS should make this easier.
There you go, Leddie, you'll be able to spend more time on Prune and less time on your dwindling super because you won't have to fork out $$ for your local DGPS base station when you're mowing your block with the remote control tractor! :ok:

[thorn bird]

$225 Million Pffft!, jeez Dick small change.

What I find hard to not find "passing strange" is $1.5 BILLION + to build the new western Sydney airport and I'll be
long dead by the time its completed.

Yet the Wagner's can build an equivalent airport for $250 million and do it in less than five years.

CAsA can spend more than half a billion to create half a regulatory suite that has decimated a whole industry, a regulatory suite that has completely failed every benchmark set at the inception of the so called "Reform"initiative, yet the political class seems perfectly content to allow CAsA to go on pissing taxpayer dollars up against the wall to achieve absolutely nothing.

[Bend alot]

457 visas have been abolished.

[27/09]

While I'm not arguing against spending money on other needy aviation causes SBAS should have been implemented a long long time ago. It's not just aviation that benefits in fact the big benefits to aviation are small compared to the benefits other industries gain from SBAS.

The safety benefits it brings to aviation are significant, particularly by enabling 3D approaches at any airport that can support an RNAV approach.

No doubt some will ague BaroVNAV does the same thing. Yes it does, provided the correct Baro setting is set. There's plenty of opportunity for the wrong Baro setting to be set and it happens. SBAS avoids these errors.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

A 2016 report on SBAS for Australia (http://www.crcsi.com.au/assets/Program-1/SBAS-Project/Choy-2016-SBAS-for-Australia.pdf)

EDIT to ADD...A good read and a nice little bit of information regarding estimated costs back at the start of the century...missing a zero!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

http://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0020/43724/NPI-technical-for-web22-copy.png
From Geoscience Australia National Positioning Infrastructure (http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigation/positioning-for-the-future/national-positioning-infrastructure) page. AC, note! All those sites in the little map of Australia do not follow the same protocols BUT they monitor and link data for processing and correction. Where it says Internet...it can also say Uplink.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Bendalot
Type endorsements have been abolished for a great many aircraft types but we still tend to do the same 3-4 hours of training per type and we still refer to it as an "endorsement", because everybody understands immediately what you mean and what it encompasses.

457 visas have been abolished.
....but they have been replaceed by some other category of visa that does substantially the same thing and when we refer to "457 Visas" everybody understands what it means and what it allows someone to do.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Collier et al. 2011 (http://www.crcsi.com.au/assets/Resources/2a89c330-42b3-4907-98ee-d535e03a425d.pdf) The argument to fly a bent pipe transponder on the NBN bird.

[alphacentauri]

OZ, I am noting......its GA that have advised the existing ground infrastructure is not adequate.

Im involved in the project. The cost includes setup of ground stations inc building new ones.

[Lead Balloon]

And is it Geoscience Australia that’s been funded to instal the ground infrastructure to replace the existing ground infrastructure that Geoscience Australia has advised is not adequate? If so, I wouldn’t expect much change out of $500 million.

[gerry111]

And bear in mind that “$225 million” is government-speak for “$450 million”.

That's outrageous, Lead Balloon.
Didn't I hear Sco Mo lay down a really credible budget, just the other night?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Yet the Wagner's can build an equivalent airport for $250 million and do it in less than five years.
Not really equivalent. Government will probably have to spend that much just on the community consultation. Wagners didn't worry about the red tape too much. Wellcamp was built to handle 500k pax, West SYD stage 1 will be 10M pax.

[alphacentauri]

LB, so far is I know GA are the lead organisation for SBAS. Its my understanding that the cost of implementation is borne by them, incl cost of groud infrastructure.

My own view, the SBAS announcement in the budget comes as a surprise. The devil is going to be in the detail and i havent read the detail yet.

[Lead Balloon]

Its my understanding that the cost of implementation is borne by them, incl cost of groud infrastructure.Geoscience Australia doesn’t bear any cost. Muggins the taxpayer does.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Well, well...that was a good find. AC, I am not feeling very enthusiastic. What is the criteria for a new install rather than adapting existing infrastructure? GA are in this particular market supplying a product for a fee...and now this product is inferior? Interesting!


EDIT to Add....my new fear is GA finds a way of making this system Australian unique. No ICAO compliance and no standard suitable to maintain "Safety of Life"!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

In addition to the national ground infrastructure network, Geoscience Australia will
deliver a satellite positioning capability. This will improve the accuracy (ten
centimetres), integrity and availability of positioning data across Australia and its
maritime jurisdiction. The Satellite Based Augmentation System is an international
standard used to deliver precise and high-integrity positioning, navigation and timing
data via satellite. This will support regional Australia and sectors such as the aviation
and maritime sectors.

page142 Budget Statement (https://industry.gov.au/AboutUs/Budget/Documents/2018-19-Department-of-Industry-Innovation-and-Science-PBS.pdf)

[LeadSled]

There you go, Leddie, you'll be able to spend more time on Prune and less time on your dwindling super because you won't have to fork out $$ for your local DGPS base station when you're mowing your block with the remote control tractor! :ok:

Bloggsie,
I commend to you reading the paper mentioned by Ozbusdriver, and particular Table 2, which gives you the expected accuracies achievable with various augmentation system.
I would also point out that there is nothing in said paper that is technically inconsistent with any of the remarks I have posted on the subject.
I have always found that smartaleck remarks are a poor substitute for facts and a considered opinion based on knowledge and experience.
Tootle pip!!
PS: My SMSF is doing rather well thanks, I think it will outlast me.

[LeadSled]

OZ, I am noting......its GA that have advised the existing ground infrastructure is not adequate.

Im involved in the project. The cost includes setup of ground stations inc building new ones.
AlphaC,
Perhaps, then, you could explain why one of the ground stations is going to be on Cocos Island??
Tootle pip!!

[Sunfish]

I am in Vietnam at present. 93 million productive people. huge infrastructure developments. huge economic transformation.

.....and yet little Australia is still carping over introduction of an international standard SBAS?? The conceit in not adopting international standards as they appear is just mind boggling.

BTW, the reason for a Cocos Is. ground station is probably to improve accuracy for the marine oil and gas industry in WA.

[alphacentauri]

The further apart the ground stations are the better geomtery you have to provide a correction. Also the larger area you can apply that correction to.

Last time I looked, Cocos Island was part of Australian NW territories. Surely a national nav infastructure project woukd include our outer territories. Not to mention Sunfish's points

[Capn Bloggs]

I have always found that smartaleck remarks are a poor substitute for facts and a considered opinion based on knowledge and experience.
Me too, Leddy! :ok:

Perhaps, then, you could explain why one of the ground stations is going to be on Cocos Island??
In the document that you told me to read, perhaps you could do a search for "maritime jurisdiction". That might give a clue as to why.

It's not $225m for the SBAS, it's $160m. The extra is for the 3cm accuracy.

No doubt some will ague BaroVNAV does the same thing. Yes it does, provided the correct Baro setting is set. There's plenty of opportunity for the wrong Baro setting to be set and it happens. SBAS avoids these errors.
Nobody's answered me yet; how is the LPV DA displayed/used/worked out in the cockpit? Using a rad alt?

[27/09]

Me too, Leddy! :ok:


In the document that you told me to read, perhaps you could do a search for "maritime jurisdiction". That might give a clue as to why.

It's not $225m for the SBAS, it's $160m. The extra is for the 3cm accuracy.


Nobody's answered me yet; how is the LPV DA displayed/used/worked out in the cockpit? Using a rad alt?

The DA works just the same as on an ILS.

An SBAS capable GPS with a vaild SBAS signal and a LPV approach loaded will allow the vertical deviation indicator to be displayed on an EFIS, or respond on a steam gauge just as it would with a valid glideslope on an ILS. DA is read off the altimeter just like the ILS. Simples.

You could use a Rad Alt too if you were so equipped. In my experience an Rad Alt is a very poor way to determine DA or MDA for that matter.

[Capn Bloggs]

Thanks 27/09.

[Bend alot]

Bendalot
Type endorsements have been abolished for a great many aircraft types but we still tend to do the same 3-4 hours of training per type and we still refer to it as an "endorsement", because everybody understands immediately what you mean and what it encompasses.


....but they have been replaceed by some other category of visa that does substantially the same thing and when we refer to "457 Visas" everybody understands what it means and what it allows someone to do.

Sorry no they don't.

In Fact even Register Migration Agents are not familiar fully with the new visas - they are the only people qualified to give advice about migration in Australia.

So if they don't know how to you know?

In fact very few of the new visas have even been applied for.

They are so new the 457's are still in processing stage due to process time and most of the new visa category follow the same processing requirements and time frames.

It fine to bag out some thing if it if fact - but your statement is not correct.

[LeadSled]

.....and yet little Australia is still carping over introduction of an international standard SBAS?? The conceit in not adopting international standards as they appear is just mind boggling.

Sunfish,
Which goes a long way to explain why it has been estimated that Australia will slip from economy No.6 in our region, to No.13 by 2030.
Our ratbag energy "policy", helping to de-industrialize Australia, alone will be a big contributor.
A big pilot training operation has recently been established there, another one in Cambodia, perhaps we can fill the Australian pilot shortfall from the CASA destruction of local training, from those sources.
Tootle pip!!
PS: It is New Zealanders who are very active in setting up schools in the area, with local aviation authorities increasingly adopting the NZ "rules" as a basis for their own ICAO compliant rules.