Launy for QF Training School

[Dangly Bits]

Does anyone know if there is any rumour to the truth :} that QF has decided on Launceston for their new Future Airline Captains Training School? FACTS?

[maggot]

Ha




12345678

[sta5fhl]

No decision has been made yet.

[Hugh Mungus]

With the renowned Sydney Centricity that Qantas is famed for.....the further away from the CoatHanger the less likely it becomes Just Sayin.

[Bootstrap1]

i don't think Parafield back in the 90s was very Sydneycentric.

[dr dre]

Does anyone know if there is any rumour to the truth :} that QF has decided on Launceston for their new Future Airline Captains Training School? FACTS?

The school is planned to be training several hundred pilots per year when its fully running, which will constitute a significant proportion of pilots trained in Australia. My guess is the school would need to be located at several airports in order to pump out those numbers.

[Seagull201]

There was a news article on Monday morning, saying that Albury was also putting in a bid for the QF training academy.

I'd say various regional cities with airports In NSW, VIC, TAS, QLD, are all putting in bids, with the hope of becoming the home of the QF academy.

[Duck Pilot]

Maybe a few other airports in Tasmania with Western Junction being the hub. Certainly no congestion problems in Tasmania and it’s close enough to Victoria for advanced navigation excercises.

I thought Qantas built and still owns the hangar that Sharp Airlines currently use. I’m pretty sure that facility has lots of office and workshop space. Plenty of room for expansion down there and pretty good flying conditions for flight training around Launceston.

[Keg]

You’re talking 50+ aeroplanes and 70ish flying instructors as well as accommodation and messing facilities for 500. There are few places in Australia that can cope with those sorts of numbers without massive additional infrastructure spend- spend that Qantas is unlikely to want to fork out.

[Duck Pilot]

It will be interesting to see where they get the instructors from.

[mikewil]

It will be interesting to see where they get the instructors from.

They may have to consider a program where they can guarantee instructors a pathway directly into QF (or subsidiary) after x years of service.

In terms of a location with capacity to train and house these sorts of numbers, I understand the township of Leigh Creek in SA is pretty much deserted ever since the coal mine closed a couple years back. Large underutilized airport with AVGAS & JET facilities all ready to go!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

A group of us were in Taswegia for the Symmons Plains Supercar event and then followed Targa Tasmania, a number of newspaper articles about the training facility being based at Devonport. Steve Martin former Devonport Mayor, now federal politician was pushing for it to go to Devonport, plus all the local experts were happy to give their expert Aviation opinions on all matters aeronautical
One of our group laughed about Steve Martin mentioning the bit about the pilots needing a university degree to upgrade to be a captain.
Perhapps East West Loco, knows a bit more?
If it goes to Devonport, the students will be up to speed on crosswinds!

[neville_nobody]

I would have thought Tasmanian weather would have made any large size flying school a non starter. If all the students are located in the one town you need to have consistantly good weather patterns. You cant have large complex flying programs blown out by months due to weather. And Tasmania gets it all fog/hail/snow/sleet/freezing fog plus a few 50 knot gales just to keep you on your toes.
There is a reason there are big int'l flying schools in SA & WA

[sheppey]

I understand the township of Leigh Creek in SA is pretty much deserted.
The flies drove everyone away, that's why..

[growahead]

Neville, you are quite wrong regarding Launceston weather. Western Junction (aka Launceston Airport) was one of the several RAAF training fields in the area during WW2, it worked quite well then. Very occasionally, fog will persist past midday.Vis is usually far better than coastal flying I’ve done in Qld; many winter days are magic for flying. Overall, Launceston has far better weather than Melbourne, although the winter overnight temps can get cold, it almost ensures a calm clear day following.
Launceston is a good size, with plenty of facilities, as is the airport itself. It would be excellent in the grass runways are retained, it allows better traffic management for training activities, and offers choices to have or to avoid crosswinds.
i think Launceston would be a good choice.

[VH-FTS]

Isn’t there going to be a very empty space in Tamworth soon?

[JPJP]

https://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1464557/size/tl-horizontal_main.jpgThis island is for sale (seriously). Perfect weather, and a tropical climate for the young acolytes of Alan. Perfect for a new flying school.

For sale by goverment - https://dawhois.com/site/mavuvaisland.com.html

[markis10]

Isn’t there going to be a very empty space in Tamworth soon?

Not completely empty when things finish in 2019 https://www.baesystems.com/en-aus/article/bae-systems-australia-welcomes-cae-lease-at-tamworth

[geeup]

Tablelands Newspaper in QLD stated Mareeba was on the shortlist a few months ago.

Cannot find the article online.

[bazza stub]

What! The academy isn't already pumping out QF devotees? I thought this was to counter the "rumoured" pilot shortage. Better get onto it Alan!

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

Can't go past Tamworth I reckon. ILS, Facilities in place, Good weather etc.

[Going Boeing]

Can't go past Tamworth I reckon. ILS, Facilities in place, Good weather etc.

I totally agree. With the RAAF moving its ab-initio training to East Sale, there is going to be a lot of unused infrastructure at Tamworth airport.

Qantas will use all the other councils as a bargaining chip to get the best deal, but, with all the infrastructure (& some instructors) already in place, they could be up and running almost immediately.

When you add the Tamworth weather into the equation, I would be very surprised if it went anywhere else.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

And it's close to SYD!

[LeadSled]

And it's close to SYD!
And Qantas has a training base there years ago, that is where the DC-3s were more or less based.
Tootle pip!!

[Keg]

I originally thought as you did Going Boeing. I did hear a rumour though that when Joyce was undergoing treatment for prostrate cancer that he was there at the same time with one of the family members responsible for Wellcamp and that a friendship was struck up and that their ‘can do’ attitude may see the training facilities established there. Not for $20 mill mind you, they’d need a truck load more than that for a green fields site.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

I originally thought as you did Going Boeing. I did hear a rumour though that when Joyce was undergoing treatment for prostrate cancer that he was there at the same time with one of the family members responsible for Wellcamp and that a friendship was struck up and that their ‘can do’ attitude may see the training facilities established there. Not for $20 mill mind you, they’d need a truck load more than that for a green fields site.

Keg there are already training facilities up there in the form of the building that the AAA (Royal Qld Aero Club) were using for their Airline cadets. Maybe you might be on to something.

[Keg]

Easily scaleable to cope with up to 500 trainees AWB?

Can anyone realistically view any single training provider in Australia coping with 40 new trainees every month of the year? Aeroplanes? Instructors? LAMEs? Ground Instructors?

It'll be awesome if they can make it work but it's a scale that Australia has never seen. Even at it's peak in the early '90s the Australian Aviation College (now Flight Training Adelaide) struggled to get more than about 180 through in any one year.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

Whoever told Alan Joyce 500 a year was doable gave him really bad advice. Across 10 other large schools possible, but something the size of what would be needed for 500 a year would take way more than $20Mill to get started. Where will they find the Instructors to start with?

[DirectAnywhere]

They can pay me what they pay me to fly and I'll happily become a full time GR1 again, even have ATO approvals. Home every night. Perfect. Oh, they want to pay the award? Bwahahahah. Good luck.

[Jeps]

The powers at be probably wouldn’t like the truth bombs Keg and others are dropping here. It kinda smells like RedQ....if they do manage it at some point it won’t be in 12 months time.

[neville_nobody]

It's just what business's do in the modern era. They make unrealistic aspirational statements, as a lofty goal rather than some realistic target. This then inspires ' 'enablers' to move the project along.

The thing is now that the financial press don't actually do any journalism, including the ABC, so nothing any business actually says gets challenged. So when it all falls in a heap they will just move onto the next project and all is forgotten. As long as you don't end up in a royal commission or go broke it's all good.

[fearcampaign]

It's just what business's do in the modern era. They make unrealistic aspirational statements, as a lofty goal rather than some realistic target. This then inspires ' 'enablers' to move the project along.

The thing is now that the financial press don't actually do any journalism, including the ABC, so nothing any business actually says gets challenged. So when it all falls in a heap they will just move onto the next project and all is forgotten. As long as you don't end up in a royal commission or go broke it's all good.

Agree. Think Red Q, Jetstar Hong Kong. Grand visions with no execution.
Unless they pay mega bucks they are not going to attract instructors.
Qantas wont want to pay for it and it wont be ready in time or of a big enough scale as others have said.
When you have a SH EBA and a LH eba coming up its a great thing to threaten with an obvious shortage.
Emirates can’t get pilots or Training pilots and are cancelling flights now.
Alan would be livid that pilots are in a strong bargaining position. Sadly AIPA lack conviction and strong leadership and the pilots are not confident so I doubt much will be achieved in the largest shortage in history. Like to say I’m wrong but a great majority would take a pay cut just for a new toy.

[DynamicStall]

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-next-step-to-select-home-of-new-pilot-academy/

It is expected the Academy will employ more than 40 people in training and support roles, and partner with local businesses and suppliers to support key administrative and catering functions, providing new opportunities to drive economic activity in regional Australia from 2019.

Aiming to train 100 pilots in the first year (2019-2020) when only a 'formal process' for regional cities and states to apply, is being announced today.

They will need more than 40 staff.

Tell 'em they're dreaming!

[Rated De]

One would be well versed reading the very small print. 'Return of Service Obligations', 'located at company priority' and 'release subject to operational requirements' likely to feature in the fine print. Caveat Emptor! Should this yet to be located, built, staffed and equipped school operate, the focus for Qantas 'group' will be the lack of suitable applicants in both regional and 'subsidiary' airlines. A Jetconnect base and flying in Australia is a nice circumvention of the existing agreements we would postulate.A sturdy stream lead will have their hand firmly on..the tiller

Qantas has been 'terminal', 'transformed', needing AUD $3 billion government assistance, starting JQ HK, having 400 JQ aircraft by 2020 and even Red Q (which never was settled as to whether it would be in Malaysia or Singapore) all in the tenure of one little Napoleon.

With anything Mr Joyce says Give weight to actions, but heavily discount his words.

[muddywaters]

Im curious as to the cost to the cadet and how it compares to the VA cadetship program.

[dr dre]

One would be well versed reading the very small print. 'Return of Service Obligations', 'located at company priority' and 'release subject to operational requirements' likely to feature in the fine print.


Isn’t a bonding obligation only for those who’ve had their company foot the bill for their training? I can’t see any airline requiring the students to pay for their own training but then having to enter an obligation with financial penalties if they don’t remain with the airline?

British Airways will pay back the entire cost of training their cadets (£84k) if they remain with the airline for 7 years. Aer Lingus and Air France sponsor their student pilot training completely. If imagine there’d be a minimum employment obligation but when you’ve had the bill for your flying training covered I don’t think too many students would be complaining.

If I was a recent high school grad or uni student I don’t think I’d be too concerned with being “forced” to fly a Q400 for a number of years with training paid for either.

[PLovett]

Maybe a few other airports in Tasmania with Western Junction being the hub. Certainly no congestion problems in Tasmania and it’s close enough to Victoria for advanced navigation excercises.

I thought Qantas built and still owns the hangar that Sharp Airlines currently use. I’m pretty sure that facility has lots of office and workshop space. Plenty of room for expansion down there and pretty good flying conditions for flight training around Launceston.

Workshop space is ok (just) but very short on office space. It would need considerable expansion to serve as a training establishment. Sharps currently leasing the facility and using it as there primary maintenance base as well as supporting operations out of there to Flinders and King Island.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

When it was proposed to bulid the Ansett training college at Launceston, the Federal Airports Corporation planned to build a parallel runway complete with an ILS, remove the three grass runways and build the training/hangar complex on the eastern side of the airport.

Let the pork barrelling begin!

[Capn Bloggs]

The West, 12 May 2018
WA Push To Land Qantas Pilot School
By Geoffrey Thomas, Aviation Editor
The State Government will set up a task force to try to lure the proposed Qantas Group Pilot Academy to WA. Qantas has issued a formal request for proposals from States and airports for the location of its new pilot training school, which the airline plans to open next year with an initial intake of 100 trainees. Eventually it plans to train 500 pilots a year for its own operations and those of other airlines.

Competition for the academy is expected to be intense from around the nation. But the WA Government believes that the State’s weather and more open airspace will be big advantages. Qantas requires 300 days of “flying weather” a year, the airline’s proposal says. It also requires an asphalt runway and taxiways with minimum runway length of 1300m, capability of full lighting for night and reduced-visibility operations and fuel tanker refuelling. Also on the list are hangars and covered facilities to accommodate maintenance and parking space for up to 30 planes, with the ability to expand to more than 50 planes. The Government’s task force will bring together tourism, transport and regional development to formalise WA’s comparative advantages for the facility. The task force will consider potential locations around the State as part of its investigation, including Busselton-Margaret River, Jandakot, Geraldton, Cunderdin and Albany.

The Government said that it would also continue to work closely with China Southern to support the existing China Southern WA Flying College in Merredin, as well as Singapore Airlines’ training operation at Jandakot.

[BloodTypePepsi]

For a training school of any size you can rule out any airport that already has an airline training academy. After being at ymmb for a bit I have found that since the RA schools started up that an academy for 500 pilots really need their own runway access so the school isn't battling for circuit space. YMMB is basically at capacity now that it has 4 large schools.

[Captain Gidday]

The West, 12 May 2018
I'd be looking at Kalgoorlie as the pick of WA. Big enough town with enough facilities and spare accommodation to support a school of this size [Not talking about Hay Street here]. Two or three trains and about four airline services per day linking back to Perth. Great weather nearly all the time and meets all the airport requirements I think. Not too much traffic: airline F28s, charter aircraft and Air Force training jets currently come and go, but not excessive. All the empty sky that anyone could possibly want.

[Maggie Island]

I'd be looking at Kalgoorlie as the pick of WA. Big enough town with enough facilities and spare accommodation to support a school of this size [Not talking about Hay Street here]. Two or three trains and about four airline services per day linking back to Perth. Great weather nearly all the time and meets all the airport requirements I think. Not too much traffic: airline F28s, charter aircraft and Air Force training jets currently come and go, but not excessive. All the empty sky that anyone could possibly want.

YCUN could offer the prospect of accomodation/facility sharing with the Ag school that sits right beside the aerodrome. In addition there is the potential for reduced overall cost (to the government and QF) should the field be required to be upgraded to international spec for diversion purposes.

[Keg]

YPKG and YCUN don’t have an ILS so unless their submissions include the addition of those facilities they’re going to be a long way behind some other contenders.

[Derfred]

Is the USA leading the way?

A link to another thread: CFI’s are included in the process (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/609122-pilot-hungry-airlines-raiding-flight-schools.html#post10153818)

[glekichi]

Oh, so that's why the only place in Tasmania ASA only offer CPL/ATPL exams is Launy........ despite the existing schools in the state that offer professional courses all being in Hobart... It finally makes sense!!!

[AerialPerspective]

The powers at be probably wouldn’t like the truth bombs Keg and others are dropping here. It kinda smells like RedQ....if they do manage it at some point it won’t be in 12 months time.

I think that’s “... the powers THAT be...” just sayin’

[Lookleft]

A major criteria is also the weather. I doubt Launy or Hobart would meet that.

[Power]

https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/pilot-job/3800/Multi%20Engine%20Flight%20Instructors%20Wanted%20for%20Tamwo rth

This ad on AFAP leads me to believe its going to Tamworth with CAE/Oxford

[Jeps]

I think that’s “... the powers THAT be...” just sayin’

You are quite right. I believe it was written in the early hours in a different timezone. Forgiveness please :E

[megle2]

That AFAP job add mentions award plus 10%. I haven’t checked the award but would it be reasonable to say it’s hardly attractive

[swells]

Oh, so that's why the only place in Tasmania ASA only offer CPL/ATPL exams is Launy........ despite the existing schools in the state that offer professional courses all being in Hobart... It finally makes sense!!!
used to be the case until a couple of years ago, exams are now also done in Hobart

[Fieldmouse]

https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/pilot-job/3800/Multi%20Engine%20Flight%20Instructors%20Wanted%20for%20Tamwo rth

This ad on AFAP leads me to believe its going to Tamworth with CAE/Oxford
I would suggest that if it doesn't go to Tamworth it would be due to a large number of brown paper bags changing hands, or pork barrelling on a biblical scale at another site.

[logansi]

CAE just moved all there Indian cadets to Tamworth and are struggling to get instructors they are offering bonuses and housing allowances for Moorabbin based instructors to move. They moved all their diamonds up there and apparently 50% are sitting idle.

[glekichi]

exams are now also done in Hobart

Good to hear!

[TBM-Legend]

Tamworth is the logical place for one of the schools. Remember the BAE/ADF facility closes down when that training moves to RAAF Sale. All is in place including accommodation etc and direct QFLink services to HQ in Sydney

[Angle of Attack]

I also can’t see why anyone would go past Tamworth to be honest, it ticks all the boxes for everything.

[Ascend Charlie]

I also can’t see why anyone would go past Tamworth to be honest, it ticks all the boxes for everything.

...and Chad Morgan every January!

[Going Nowhere]

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-announces-shortlist-of-regional-cities-for-new-pilot-academy/

[Capt Fathom]

Alice Springs, Northern Territory
Bendigo, Victoria
Busselton, Western Australia
Dubbo, New South Wales
Launceston, Tasmania
Mackay, Queensland
Tamworth, New South Wales
Toowoomba, Queensland
Wagga Wagga, New South Wales


I'd be surprised if it didn't go to Tamworth or Wagga Wagga. But I've been surprised before!

[JPJP]

Alice Springs, Northern Territory
Bendigo, Victoria
Busselton, Western Australia
Dubbo, New South Wales
Launceston, Tasmania
Mackay, Queensland
Tamworth, New South Wales
Toowoomba, Queensland
Wagga Wagga, New South Wales


I'd be surprised if it didn't go to Tamworth or Wagga Wagga. But I've been surprised before!

Completely disagree ! Alan will choose this island as his legacy, upon which he can train his youngsters. Like a modern version of Lord of the Flies. With rainbow overtones. Plus, he’ll have them paying for the pleasure. Another South Pacific money maker, and another game changer !


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1050x490/5d46f5e0_0bc6_4b8e_ab1a_758c9b37ea43_1d7154d36ba4988252e688b b01d687425c5a28e8.jpeg


The island Is for sale.

[LeadSled]

Alice Springs, Northern Territory
Bendigo, Victoria
Busselton, Western Australia
Dubbo, New South Wales
Launceston, Tasmania
Mackay, Queensland
Tamworth, New South Wales
Toowoomba, Queensland
Wagga Wagga, New South Wales


I'd be surprised if it didn't go to Tamworth or Wagga Wagga. But I've been surprised before!
Captain Fathom,
Wouldn't Alice Springs be the obvious site ---- "fair to all the states and territories" being equally inconvenient for everybody, with limited distractions for the cadets --- unless bar brawls are your preferred entertainment, and a few other "attractions" that are probably best left unsaid.
Tootle pip!!

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

I thought having an ILS was one of the requirements?

[Seagull201]

The QF article mentioned, their aim is to have 2 locations, as they won't be able to accommodate the training output from a single site.
One of the training locations should have an ILS and be located close to other navaids.

Alice Springs: I don't think so. Dust storms, also students can get lost on navex's due to it's remoteness.

Wagga Wagga: A major flying school is there.

Dubbo: Could be one of the locations.

Tamworth: Yes. For the advanced training part also it's close to Dubbo.

My pick: Dubbo and Tamworth.

[Professional Amateur]

What about Toowoomba welcamp. Use Oakey ils.

[On eyre]

Probably finally depends on how much ($) they (QF) can coax out of which state government to make it happen !

[Square Bear]

Surely thoughts would need to take into account where the FI’s might want to be based.

Not like there here is an abundance of those about these days....

[Going Nowhere]

No doubt they’ll be dangled a carrot by QF.

”Give us x years and you can apply via the EOI...”

Meanwhile training people who will be ahead of you in seniority.. ��

Does this mean that the QF group will start employing fewer ex flight instructors so as to not drain the pond too much? Offer them the “Thanks but no thanks” email with a “but... we have a flying school if you’d like a job.”

[Hasherucf]

What about Toowoomba welcamp. Use Oakey ils.

Definitely in the top 5 and a bit of a dark horse in the race. Queensland Government and Wagners will be pushing hard . Toowoomba booming at the moment and the new bypass that passes Wellcamp opening soon. Qantas fly in twice a day!

Launceston out for the weather.

Alice Springs last for sure !

[Professional Amateur]

Yeah tbar is a no brainer. No competition. Ils 10nm away. Army is shrinking ita operations there. Great there city to live in nearby. Private airport run by a pragmatic businessman. Empty airport with plenty of room for an academy. 1.5h from Brisbane (by car). Centerally located in Australia...... The list goes on.

[Don Diego]

The whole thing is a con, no business person in their right mind would put their own money into such a project. Every boom is followed by a bust, so any hapless investor who gets stooged with this one best have deep pockets because as we all know only too well the bust will last for years. ( That is why Q want others to finance it and take the risks ).

[Seagull201]

I don't think Dubbo could be an option for the new QF flying academy, watched tonight's news, there's too much crime lately in the area,
compared to the rest of the state (NSW).

Reckon, Tamworth and Toowoomba/wellcamp airport could be the best picks.

[Transition Layer]

I reckon Dubbo would be a shoe in if the School is headed up with the former Airlink boss DM as CFI. His instructional techniques and motivational skills are second to none! :}

[Rated De]

The whole thing is a con, no business person in their right mind would put their own money into such a project. Every boom is followed by a bust, so any hapless investor who gets stooged with this one best have deep pockets because as we all know only too well the bust will last for years. ( That is why Q want others to finance it and take the risks ).

It is also an indictment of modern management practice.
Airlines need pilots otherwise Operating Revenue drops to zero.

It would seem self evident that a steady supply of pilots would be considered a strategic imperative.
Unfortunately Qantas is not about being an airline. Airlines are hard work.

In the minds of the creative folk in marketing every little bit of what ought be a strategic and therefore expeditiously researched, funded and operational structure, is spun for all it is worth.

Like the junket announcing the 'first 787' for Qantas conveniently ignored the other 600 odd flying and indeed the 11 in service with JQ, this whole thing is all tip no iceberg.

[Professional Amateur]

From the SMH:
'Qantas has asked regional cities and state governments to apply to host the new school, and has whittled the bids down to 10 - Alice Springs (Northern Territory), Bendigo (Victoria), Busselton (Western Australia), Toowoomba (Queensland), Launceston (Tasmania), and Dubbo, Tamworth and Wagga Wagga (NSW).'

Yeah I only count 8......but my money is on Toowoomba. We taking bets?

[On eyre]

PA - article omitted Mackay.

[Capt Fathom]

When they say Toowoomba, are they talking Wellcamp or the Toowoomba town airport?

[Professional Amateur]

When they say Toowoomba, are they talking Wellcamp or the Toowoomba town airport?
I reckon wellcamp. Capacity to build own facilities but importantly..... Deal with a businessman rather than a council.

[ContactMeNow]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHGTI

Oxford been travelling to Tamworth. I'm not too sure if thats part of their training flights, or their management team heading there for meetings or site inspections? A typical off Moorabbin landing lasts for 20-30mins, but Tamworth trips have been more than that.

[TBM-Legend]

Army is shrinking ita operations there

Not so. Singapore Air Force is moving its CH-47 Chinook training to Oakey from Texas. They still have SAF Super Pumas based there for training and support at Rocky..

New control tower being built at the base. Only Kiowas leaving...

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Qantas has asked regional cities and state governments to apply to host the new school
Hang on, who's school is it?
Capacity to build own facilities
I don't think QF has any intention of doing much of that.

[Rated De]

Hang on, who's school is it?

I don't think QF has any intention of doing much of that.

Given Qantas recently sold off the yet another another revenue centre (catering) and has spent its entire corporate life outsourcing and offshoring every Australian job possible to the extent permitted in the QSA, is it any wonder it now flies a flag of convenience? Corporate welfare courtesy of the Australian taxpayer?

Qantas executive management failed to anticipate a shortage that has been axiomatic for decades, failed to invest in pilot training, simply 'fishing out' GA, the military and now looks overseas to solve a problem that reside in IR and level 9, building A. They succeeded driving down terms and conditions in their home market to a level that means there is insufficient supply!
Finally they want the taxpayer to foot the bill for a steady 'stream' (pun intended) of pilots.

It used to be politics was the refuge of the scoundrel, it now surely is Coward street.

[Seagull201]

I noticed a news article on my phone this afternoon, from the www.ntnews.com.au (NT News),
under the heading ''time to put the NT back into QF".

Apparently QF management are in Alice Springs today, evaluating the city's bid.
It appears the selection process for a location has started.

Recent reports have indicated, there are currently up to 15,000 (fifteen thousand) applicants, applying for the initial 100 first year training positions, at the QF Academy.

[Capt Fathom]

It appears the selection process for a location has started.
They started the tour in QLD a couple of weeks back.
Nice trip around the country for a select few!

[Mach E Avelli]

For any large scale flying academy to have any hope of success, you need a stable and competent instructor base. Can't see Alice attracting and holding talent.
My pick would be Avalon, as it has all the goodies - ATC, ILS, both complex and simple airspace nearby, some terrain but not too serious, a bit of weather sometimes but generally reliable, good outfields for the bugsmashers to play. Attractive city life and beaches not far away to keep students and staff happy etc.
Wellcamp would run a close second, with the added attraction that the owners want business. For selfish reasons I would like to see it at Launceston, but fear the weather and terrain could be against it. As for Busselton - tell 'em they're dreaming...they HATE aircraft down that way.

[Capt Fathom]

They all HATE aircraft. Until they bring in the buck$. Then it's love at first sight! :oh:

[YPJT]

As for Busselton - tell 'em they're dreaming...they HATE aircraft down that way The local government execs are desperate to get something / anything happening at YBLN to justify the $67 mil grant. Much of which has already been spent on runway extension and a huge but empty apron.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I guess it will come down to which council is willing to prostrate themselves the most. They are in for a world of hurt dealing with QF if they are "lucky" enough to be selected. I hope their ratepayers have deep pockets.

[mates rates]

I see in the Australian today Wellcamp is chasing the gig.Could have a chance with OKY ILS , VOR and NDB just up the road plus TWB NDB. fine weather and close to BNE.It seems to tick all the boxes!!

[Ladloy]

Word on the street Alan Joyce has been pretty chummy with a certain chairman of a regional carrier who owns a flying school. Very interesting.

[hillbillybob]

Word on the street Alan Joyce has been pretty chummy with a certain chairman of a regional carrier who owns a flying school. Very interesting.

it is considering that carrier keeps calling qantas and virgin nasty names because they are poaching their indentured servants^z^z sorry, pilots

[gsrk1]

QANTAS Will probably make a profit from the new academy. They will have the student pay their own fees through the VET Student loan scheme (VSL) now available to some flying schools in Australia.
Also, does it seem strange to you that Sydney TAFE will only use Sydney flight college to do their training? This appears to me to limit student choice. I would be interested to know if the training went out to tender as per NSW government procurement policy. It is not a good look given that several SFC members are TAFE staff.

[Keg]

.... but probably not! :E

The Qantas Group has today confirmed it will open its Pilot Academy across two locations in regional Australia to meet anticipated demand.

The Academy (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-pilot-academy/) is part of the Qantas Group’s plans to build a long-term talent pipeline for its airlines and the broader industry to meet the increasing need for skilled aviators. Boeing’s latest estimates show that 790,000 more pilots will be required globally over the next 20 years, around one third of them in Asia Pacific.

Plans for the Qantas Group Pilot Academy were announced in February this year and it’s expected the first site will be operational during 2019. Nine regional cities across Australia – Alice Springs, Bendigo, Busselton, Dubbo, Launceston, Mackay, Tamworth, Toowoomba and Wagga Wagga – have been shortlisted. A decision on both sites will be announced in coming weeks.

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said that initial scoping had shown that two locations would be needed to reach the Academy’s potential.

“We’re aiming to train up to 100 pilots in year one but we expect this to grow to as many as 500 a year and that can only be achieved if we have more than one location,” Mr Joyce said.

“Adding up to 250 students plus instructors and support staff to any of these places needs the right infrastructure at airports, but also in the towns themselves.

“The Academy represents a commercial opportunity for Qantas, but it’s also important for the future of Australian aviation. We expect that pilots completing their training with the Academy could fly for other airlines, the defence force or services like the Royal Flying Doctors.”

Mr Joyce said the Qantas team involved in selecting the locations had been impressed at the community support for the investment across Australia.

“Our team has travelled across the country to meet with community leaders, airport operators and local suppliers in each of the nine shortlisted locations,” Mr Joyce said.

“We’ve been really impressed with the enthusiasm from each of the shortlisted cities. It’s been fantastic. And it’s reflected in the levels of support put forward by governments, councils and the private sector. There’s a lot of excitement about using the Academy to leverage more jobs and investment for the region. We really appreciate the time and effort they’ve put in to the bids.”

The Academy’s second site is expected to be operational in 2020. The total initial investment of $20 million is unchanged, reflecting the levels of third party support.

Almost 17,000 people have so far registered their interest in the Academy via qantas.com/pilotacademy.

The national carrier is encouraging more women to consider a career in aviation, which globally stands at just three per cent. To date, around 16 per cent of people registering interest in the Academy are female.

[JPJP]

‘Our team has travelled across the country to meet with the people who will give us money to train our pilots in each of the nine shortlisted locations,” Mr Joyce said.

We’ve been really impressed with the money from each of the shortlisted cities. It’s been fantastic. And it’s reflected in the levels of money put forward by governments, councils and the private sector. There’s a lot of excitement about using the Academy to leverage more money and investment from the region. We really appreciate the money and effort they’ve put in to the bids.’




Fixed it for Alan ;)

[Jeps]

They are going to have to be speedy Gonzalez if it’s to be up and running when they claim. How many will it attract if you still have to fork out that amount of money, more than you do ordinarily? People are more informed about things these days and the internet provides an awful lot of information in which to make an informed decision. It’s one of the reasons the issue is a global one.

[Rated De]

They are going to have to be speedy Gonzalez if it’s to be up and running when they claim. How many will it attract if you still have to fork out that amount of money, more than you do ordinarily? People are more informed about things these days and the internet provides an awful lot of information in which to make an informed decision. It’s one of the reasons the issue is a global one.


It is a very astute observation, it is a global issue.

Unfortunately for little napoleon intent doesn't put pilots in cockpits.
From the European perspective it was very interesting to see how badly the RYR people read the pilot market.

For decades they have had unlimited supply, every facet of their IR posture is predicated upon it, they speak in European business and aviation forums about it.
Modern airline management very quickly picked up the adversarial approach but not many noticed the obvious flaw in the model: pilot supply.

With large sunk costs on an airline career, and unlimited supply many possible applicants did not see the return on investment.
The internet allows a very quick understanding to be gained adding valuable data points in the decision making matrix.

Qantas is no different to RYR or any other adversarial employer, their system is not designed to be flexible, it doesn't recognise the changed market.
Short of another 'melt down' there is no way that more of the same; high entry costs, low return on investment and suspect career trajectories will attract enough 'suitable' applicants.
The demographic trends will turn their IR models on their head!

Whether 17,000 school kids have put in applications and 16% of females are in the mix what actually translates to Operating Revenue is the ability of the model to put pilots in cockpits.
This model is flawed as the model is still predicated on unlimited supply.

With the small print likely containing very many nasty 'conditions' Caveat Emptor

[dr dre]

Anyone who applies for this academy had better do it with their eyes wide open. It’s a commercial opportunity for Qantas. Read Qantas takes your money and you have a qualification at the end. Nothing more, such as a job at the end of the course to pay off the $150k you drop on the course.


I think there would be different entry pathways into the academy. There would be some who choose to train there as a private student and then be free to seek a job elsewhere in the industry. And then there would be those who would enter on a pathway into the Qantas group, which I assume would be the majority.

[hoss]

Tamworth and Toowoomba seem like logical choices, that’s where I’ll put my money on.

[Don Diego]

Hoss, drop YSTW and put your $$$ on YBWW, no council to plead with just the "family". There is no doubt Q are not putting any coin down for this, all smoke and mirrors to get others to do so. The jungle drums say they have short listed the "service provider" down to 4 so probably be announced soon (one from o/s). Who cares anyway, it will be just another Q cluster F%&K.

[Australopithecus]

What will happen to Qantas Academy Students who don’t get hired by Qantas?

I was wondering about the stigma of being a QF Qcademy grad looking for a job. Since QF mainline will only need circa 80 pilots a year eventually, and the group perhaps another 50 (?), where will the remaining graduates go?

Will they be seen as damaged goods?

Is a debt of $150,000 a good gamble with 3:1 odds? How about if the payoff is flying a clapped out 320 for crap pay for Network?

[pilotchute]

It's a great plan. Get people to pay $110k plus for a CPL and then tell them you can only pay them $60k because there is a oversupply of pilots.

You pay them and they turn around and screw you.

Genius! !!!

[dr dre]

Qantas are quoting that there will be 500 trainees. I can’t see there being demand for 251 pilots per year for the Qantas Group alone.

In the QF recruitment thread it's being stated that they are looking for up to 200 per year for mainline alone, let alone Group and associated companies. The 500 figure was an aim to which this academy system could eventually ramp up to, which may include private students, foreign students etc.

I’m not here to knock the process but more as a warning to those that think it’ll be a forgone conclusion of a guaranteed job.

In the private sector there's zero guarantee of a job. You could get a confirmed position with an airline and start employment, the next week the company makes a loss and cuts it's numbers and you get made redundant. I do agree what happened to those cadets was disgraceful. Hopefully the same mistakes aren't made.

The job that you might get afterwards could possibly pay as little as 40 thousand a year.

I don't think there's an EBA within the group that pays that little except for training wages.
It's a great plan. Get people to pay $110k plus for a CPL and then tell them you can only pay them $60k because there is a oversupply of pilots.


Add up the price for a CPL, IR and other necessary training for an airline position from a normal flying school and you'll get a figure that's not too far off that price. With zero guarantees afterwards.

[Australopithecus]

That high cost of training with zero guarantees is why the industry currently finds itself with a shortage. What does one more school with that model have to offer?

By the way...QF mainline is going to stabilise at a 3% annual pilot replacement rate which is around 75 pikots, I don’t know how much churn there is at other group airlines due to career/remuneration reasons.

[Seagull201]

Anyone that trains at the academy and aren't
offered jobs in the QF group on completion of training, will more than likely, be offered flight instructor jobs at the academy, after completing the instructor rating.

Its highly likely, that 50 per cent of flight instructors at the academy, will be persons, that completed all their training at the academy.

Have a look whats happening in the U.S.
On completion of a CPL and instructor rating, persons work as an instructor until reaching 1500 hours, then become regional airline jet f/o's.

If a person trains at thr QF academy and doesn't have a job lined up as an f/o, and decides to do the instructor rating, a persons debt level could climb to 180k.
Thats not nice!

[Mach E Avelli]

So, someone stumps up $120k in the expectation of a job with QF.
They fail to meet the QF selection. So they stump up another $60k to earn the privilege of teaching the next group, who fully expect to meet the QF selection, having paid their $120k. For their money they have an expectation of highly motivated and skilled instruction.

The USA model is different in that the instructors need to get 1500 hours. Depending on the particular academy, some may not know one way or the other whether they will make it to the big time. Either way, having to do a good job for a couple of years would surely be a better motivator than to employ instructors who already know they have been rejected and are merely hanging in there to pay off a huge debt as best they can.

[logansi]

Still wondering how they will find instructors for 200 students, just about every school in the country right now is facing an instructor shortage, schools with full time courses are delaying them, extending them and cancelling them, instructors are working maximum legal hours.

[Rabbitwear]

Lucky if I could get 1 hour a week instructing when I was a young bloke !

[Don Diego]

The cost of this bul#$%it Q college will be a considerable margin over and above any competition (because the arrogant turds think that anything with the Q logo on it is worth more for no other reason than that logo) so when the reality hits home that paying the money does not equate to a job the whole thing will fail. The sad fact is that international operations are doomed to fail, today, tomorrow or next month doesn't really matter as the writing is on the wall so get out now and focus on what you can make money out of and forget the good old days because they are long gone.

[Mach E Avelli]

A good start on instructor retention and to ensure some quality, would be to offer two streams:
1. Experienced old farts who have an appropriate check & training background and who are approaching or beyond normal retirement. It would have to be financially attractive for said old farts to give up their daily round of golf.
2. The top 10% of their own students, trained at QF expense and given QF seniority from day one of the instructor course, so that they are not disadvantaged. To remain as instructor for two years, then move in accordance with their seniority. Paid at least the same as their cohort while instructing.

If they think that the pathetic award rate for a Grade 3 will have instructors falling out of the trees or migrants bashing down the door just to live in the lucky country they are in for severe disappointment.

[DynamicStall]

AFAP ad with a posting for FTA opening a base at Wellcamp.

Cat outta the bag?

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

I had a feeling in my waters that it might be Wellcamp. Didn't RQAC leave a perfectly good hardly used purpose built building up there before they collapsed?

[Captain Homer]

Afap shows FTA looking for instructors for new operations at Toowoomba called FTQ for minimum 3yrs. They already do qlink, so my money that's 1 of the bases!

[Kagamuga]

I would imagine one of the pre-requisites would be; how many days of good weather per annum to allow for ab-initio through to completion. Of course an ILS would be a necessity, with access to same without delays for airline traffic...
QF Flight School, room for a golf course off the end of the runway perhaps ..

[Keg]

I did hear a rumour though that when Joyce was undergoing treatment for prostrate cancer that he was there at the same time with one of the family members responsible for Wellcamp and that a friendship was struck up and that their ‘can do’ attitude may see the training facilities established there. Not for $20 mill mind you, they’d need a truck load more than that for a green fields site.

i posted this on 10 May.

Given the article in Friday’s Oz about Toowoomba looking to contribute an extra $55 mill to the bid and some of the other comments I reckon they’re a shoe in now.

Nine regional centres are pulling out all stops to attract a prize they believe will deliver international recognition, as well as hundreds of jobs and a major economic boost.

In a fierce battle normally associated with Olympic hosting rights, the towns are competing for one of two Qantas pilot training academies.

With the international pilot shortage starting to bite, the academies are considered an important initiative by the airline and one that will attract interest from aviators worldwide.

In an effort to increase their chances, the towns and cities are using everything from nostalgia to the offer of custom-built facilities to attract the $10 million apiece investment.

The Northern Territory has suggested Qantas put the NT back into the airline and locate the academy in Alice Springs, while Busselton in Western Australia has offered to build a new airport terminal should the academy come its way.

Tamworth has emphasised the town’s long association with pilot training dating back to World War II, and Launceston has campaigned on a platform of isolation and clear open skies.

But they could all be blindsided by Toowoomba’s bid, which comes with a $55m commitment from the local Wagner family to create a new facility on the site of their Wellcamp Airport.

Toowoomba Mayor Paul Antonio said he was “very confident” in the outcome, as a result of having the Wagners on board.

“I’ve seen the Wagner family’s submission and it’s amazing — what they’re prepared to do to get this for the region,” Mr Antonio said. “I have a bit of a feeling we’ll do well.”

While Qantas is remaining tight-lipped ahead of the announcement in a few weeks, other centres are not giving up.

Tamworth Mayor Col Murray said a Qantas pilot training academy would fill the gap left by the Defence Force, which had relocated its pilot training to Sale in Victoria. “If Qantas was to select Tamworth, that would reinstate the business (of pilot training),” Mr Murray said. “There’s lots of capacity at the airport and we have very good flying conditions.”

Wagga Wagga Mayor Greg Conkey conceded that Toowoomba and Tamworth had “strong cases”. “But we’d consider ourselves to be the dark horse,” Mr Conkey said.

“It’s a tough decision for (Qantas) but it’s encouraging they’ve decided to have two locations.”

Bendigo Mayor Margaret O’Rourke said the town’s liveability was its greatest strength, and it offered good job prospects for the families and partners of the flight instructors.

“We have world-class health facilities, the headquarters of Bendigo and Adelaide Bank, and substantial industry,” Ms O’Rourke said.

“Bendigo also has 320 clear air days a year, uncongested airspace and a newly upgraded runway.”

On the other side of the country, Busselton Mayor Grant Henley said there were obvious benefits for Qantas in locating one of its academies in the west.

“They see (this academy) as attracting significant demand from Asia, where a lot of that huge shortfall in pilots is going to emanate from,” Mr Henley said.

“We’re in the same timezone and in reasonable proximity to those communities where they’re looking at sourcing pilots from in the future and who can afford to undertake that training.

“We think that’s certainly a bonus for us.”

Mackay Regional Mayor Greg Williamson said the whole community of Mackay, the most northern destination in the running, was excited to be short-listed for the academy.

“This is a good stake in the ground for regional Australia and good on Qantas for making that move to put regional Australia back on the map,” Mr Williamson said.

[Keg]

Can anyone realistically view any single training provider in Australia coping with 40 new trainees every month of the year? Aeroplanes? Instructors? LAMEs? Ground Instructors?

It'll be awesome if they can make it work but it's a scale that Australia has never seen. Even at it's peak in the early '90s the Australian Aviation College (now Flight Training Adelaide) struggled to get more than about 180 through in any one year.

I guess they solved this problem with the two different locations. It’s still a massive undertaking though.

[Jeps]

I guess they solved this problem with the two different locations. It’s still a massive undertaking though.

So many moving to parts to this and any one of them could be problematic. Love the ambition but it’s quite difficult to imagine what they are claiming will come to fruition.

[wheels_down]

If the Wagners Wellcamp have stumped up another $55m in infrastructure in its proposal, It’s a no brainer this one.

I’ve been flying around some GA airports in Victoria last week and I’m fairly disgraced with the standard of some of these strips. In fact it’s a common problem across the state, its like nobody had spent a cent on them in decades. Bendigo putting in a submission? You have got to be kidding me.

Mareeba is another one. Investing tens of millions for quality GA facilities, that are actively talking about GA growth.

[SenZubEanS]

Did you actually put wheels down on the new YBDG strip? At 18 months old, i'd hardly call it in a disgraceful state...

[A37575]

Its highly likely, that 50 per cent of flight instructors at the academy, will be persons, that completed all their training at the academy.

The blind leading the blind..

[dr dre]

The blind leading the blind..

That’s the way most flying schools have been operating for decades.

[TTY]

BAe at Tamworth are planning a fly pass of 30 ct4's this morning from 11.00hrs to mark 27years of operations at Tamworth. Scene 26 in the air earlier in the week, was quite a sound .

[Another Number]

Qantas to build flying school in regional Queensland - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/qantas-build-flying-school-pilot-training-academy-toowoomba-qld/10311012)

[airspace alpha]

And the contract for training provider goes to L3 Aviation (UK) who have a base in Hamilton NZ. The question then arises as to how they will obtain an Australian AOC, what aircraft they will acquire and most importantly where are they going to get the instructors from?

[Jeps]

And the contract for training provider goes to L3 Aviation (UK) who have a base in Hamilton NZ. The question then arises as to how they will obtain an Australian AOC, what aircraft they will acquire and most importantly where are they going to get the instructors from?

Minor details :ugh:

[Goat Whisperer]

and most importantly where are they going to get the instructors from?

if you were an instructor wouldn't you go work at the school that could provide you with a seniority number at the biggest aviation business in the country?

If anyone will struggle to get instructors it won't be them.

And the biggest business is going to find it easiest to get the govt to approve 457 visas.

[Don Diego]

Where does it say that the instructors will have a seniority number in Q ?? The instructors will work for the foreign contractor as far I can see. All smoke and mirrors, the amount of s*&t that is coming will be amusing to say the least.
P.S. hate to say I told you the winner over a month ago.

[cLeArIcE]

Instructors given a qf Seniority number? :} hahaha no chance in hell of that happening.
They will either get their instructors from;
1. The large pool that were deemed not suitable to fly for qf/qf link due to their inability to decide which shape came next in the pattern sequence
*ironic that they'll be teaching the next QF generation OR

2. A poison berry (disguised as a carrot ) will be dangled from a sufficient height to suggest the "possibility" of future employment in the QF group. (after a long period of time.)
*Doubley ironic. These instructors would be considered for the qf group without the time restriction had they chosen to work somewhere else AND they are training the very people in such quantities that will likely prevent them from obtaining a position with the qf group.

Maybe im just getting cynical in my old age

[Going Nowhere]

https://www.reuters.com/article/qantas-l3/australias-qantas-teams-with-training-provider-l3-for-new-pilot-academy-idUSL4N1WD0TH

[Ascend Charlie]

Should be some interesting issues with radio frequencies and traffic separation from Toowoomba. The latest VTC doesn't show an ILS at Oakey any more? And Brymaroo NDB gone? I've been out of aviation for a while....

[Going Nowhere]

ILS is still there but Brymaroo is gone.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x1332/screen_shot_2018_09_27_at_5_03_20_pm_7e8aecb70b44358dceef6aa 2a6152d8f8d8ea737.png

[Popgun]

Here's a link to the full interview that Elysse Morgan from ABC program 'The Business' did with AJ yesterday at Wellcamp Airport.

The Business - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/the-business/)

Pilot shortage to drive pilot salaries higher? Not at QF according to AJ. This won't come as a surprise to most but here is some direct insight.

AJ: "...we've got a list as long as your arm."
Elysse: "So no pay rises for Qantas pilots then?"
AJ: "Qantas pilots are really well paid! You know an A380 Captain gets paid around $400,000 a year! A starting pilot at QantasLink gets paid $80,000 a year. I think they're good salaries and a lot of people out there, a lot of your viewers, would love to have one of those jobs."

PG

[Kowolski]

And the contract for training provider goes to L3 Aviation (UK) who have a base in Hamilton NZ. The question then arises as to how they will obtain an Australian AOC, what aircraft they will acquire and most importantly where are they going to get the instructors from?

where did you hear about L3 being the provider?

[Popgun]

where did you hear about L3 being the provider?

Here: The Business - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/the-business/)

Jump to 2'50". Straight from AJ's mouth.

PG

[Keg]

where did you hear about L3 being the provider?

It’s also in Qantas’ press release available here. (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-pilot-academy-to-land-in-toowoomba/)

[morno]

AJ: "...we've got a list as long as your arm."
Elysse: "So no pay rises for Qantas pilots then?"
AJ: "Qantas pilots are really well paid! You know an A380 Captain gets paid around $400,000 a year! A starting pilot at QantasLink gets paid $80,000 a year. I think they're good salaries and a lot of people out there, a lot of your viewers, would love to have one of those jobs."

So he obviously has no interest in attracting the BEST? May be getting them at the moment, but that’s only because of years of no recruitment and a large pool of pilots who want to work for QF in that time.

But once that pool has dried up.....?

[Rated De]

So he obviously has no interest in attracting the BEST? May be getting them at the moment, but that’s only because of years of no recruitment and a large pool of pilots who want to work for QF in that time.

But once that pool has dried up.....?




Given it is contract season for both lists of pilots in Qantas mainline, Mr Joyce won't let an opportunity pass to soften them up a bit more. If the pilots, through their collective assocations don't lever a generational shortage to improve their conditions, one may be entitled to ask why not?

Whether the 'list' of interest includes fourteen year old school kids 'with aspirations' was not disclosed. The reality the list' may be nowhere as strong as little Napoleon would want people to believe.

[Flyboy1987]

Of the 18000 that have an expression of interest, 16% are female.

Will be interesting to see what percentage of the first intake will be female...

”Addressing the gendar imbalance is the key to meeting market demand for pilots”

With approx 15120 of the 18000 applicants being male, I beg to differ.

[Jeps]

This EOI number is akin to “the fish I caught was this biiigggg”. It grows every time it’s quoted. Ultimately all it is is an email address typed into a box with the submit button hit, close to worthless.

[triadic]

Yes, the instructors will be an issue - where will they come from (other than retirement?)

But the more interesting question, is where will the Engineers come from to maintain the 40 aircraft they have planned?????

[Capt Fathom]

where will the Engineers come from to maintain the 40 aircraft they have planned

457 Visas ?

[cogwheel]

And all the imported LAME’s will have their CASA tickets by next July?

[Stationair8]

Queensland and Near Toowoomba Air Services as qouted in the Courier Mail last week.

[TTY]

Qantas out Virgin in at Tamworth, Announced at Tamworth a few minutes ago.(https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5731815/breaking-virgin-to-set-up-world-class-training-school-in-tamworth/?cs=12)

[LeadSled]

But once that pool has dried up.....?

Folks,
Given Qantas' acute pilot recruiting and retention problem right now, it suggests to me that the pool of suitable pilots has already dried up.
Otherwise, among other things, Qantas would not be supporting importing pilots on whatever a 457 visa is now called.
"Other things" including service cancellations and severe crimps on operational planning.
Tootle pip!!

[Rated De]

Folks,
Given Qantas' acute pilot recruiting and retention problem right now, it suggests to me that the pool of suitable pilots has already dried up.
Otherwise, among other things, Qantas would not be supporting importing pilots on whatever a 457 visa is now called.
"Other things" including service cancellations and severe crimps on operational planning.
Tootle pip!!

Naturally. QF have had ample supply for decades. Around that now erroneous assumption has been framed a whole infrastructure of adversarial IR.
Think of the following as a continuance of the same game:

Network Aviation desperately trying to lure foreign pilots with big rumoured sign on and retention bonuses (all designed to provide an illusion of abundant supply)
A 'stream lead' former AIPA president actively involved in pilot supply.
Expanded 'skill shortage' visa categories including directly into Qantas being lobbied.
Pilot training colleges (were the financial burden is evenly split between the applicant and the taxpayer)
Open and delayed contractual 'negotiations'
Rumours circulating of another 'cull' of staff. Where form this time Little Napoleon?


All of that is a recognition that QF are acutely aware of the impending shortage. They will do everything in their power to ensure the deck is stacked the way the have enjoyed it. With a hasty order for A320 NEO now having to be absorbed in an over-scale demand elastic JQ, the existing A320 have to go somewhere!
Sadly in demographics is destiny and all of their effort is pointless. Does not mean they will change until the cancellation rate is noticed at board level and questions are asked. Usually this will follow a 'material change' being disclosed under ASX listing rules.

[sharv999]

So where will QF find all of the instructors needed to train their 500+ pilots per year, let alone VA's ...?

[mates rates]

Former flight instructors from within their own ranks.There are always pilots prepared to sacrifice for the company to climb the greasy pole.

[Going Nowhere]

QF don't have to find any.

That's a problem for L3 in Wellcamp, and whoever gets the gig to run #2 (Bendigo) :E

[crosscutter]

I’ve read the headline that QF is no longer partnering with L3....or vice versa.

anyone know more?

is this another redQ? Another over promise and under deliver example? It’s gone pretty quiet of late

[Rated De]

I’ve read the headline that QF is no longer partnering with L3....or vice versa.

anyone know more?

is this another redQ? Another over promise and under deliver example? It’s gone pretty quiet of late



Didn't Little Napoleon boast it would be operating mid-2019?

Red Q, JQ HK, a game changing alliance?

[Capt Fathom]

The whole thing has gone very quiet!

[Rated De]

The whole thing has gone very quiet!

Might be time for a 'terminal decline' with strained faces and accompanying puff pieces! It is after all 'contract season'

[TWOTBAGS]

The scuttlebutt is along the lines of ……

Impossible timelines
unable to secure instructors
Wagners not prepared to foot the bill for the QF largesse
Inept decisions makers
L3 scratching their head/nuts..... gone home because its all too hard.

For something due to start in 2019..... its gone very very quiet

[Rated De]

The scuttlebutt is along the lines of ……

Impossible timelines
unable to secure instructors
Wagners not prepared to foot the bill for the QF largesse
Inept decisions makers
L3 scratching their head/nuts..... gone home because its all too hard.

For something due to start in 2019..... its gone very very quiet

Anyone who understood the flawed bid to start up JQ Hong Kong knows it failed at the first hurdle.
Qantas did not do any diligence in Hong Kong, Little Napoleon made a series of megaphone announcements alongside with Uncle Fester (Bruce Buchanan).
From the bid's structure any research was post announcement, poorly considered.
The ruling rejecting their bid was axiomatic from day one: They never were correctly incorporated, nor had their Principal Place of Business in Hong Kong.


https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/1826650/jetstar-bid-hong-kong-licence-rejected

Rather like the screams for taxpayer assistance in December 2013 that disappeared six weeks later, the hysterics of Little Napoleon were to be subject to scrutiny, Qantas would have to demonstrate to a financially astute audience that they actually were disadvantaged. They were not prepared to do this, had nothing to support their statement, so they quietly backed away.

Red Q was the same; thought bubble in search of a strategy. It was opposed by localised resistance. Megaphone diplomacy, poor strategy and worse execution.

See the pattern?

This announcement appears to be a similar pattern.
A thought bubble, no research, poor strategy and shockingly executed.
It will be pushed with weasel words into the future.

The good news though is that the announcement shows pilots that Qantas are sufficiently concerned about pilot supply to acknowledge it.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

It was a vain attempt to make pilots think they are an easy to produce commodity timed to coincide with contract negotiation. The shortage we were never going to have us happening.

[Rated De]

It was a vain attempt to make pilots think they are an easy to produce commodity timed to coincide with contract negotiation. The shortage we were never going to have us happening.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Quite probably the last entity to feel the shortage will be Qantas 'mainline' itself.
Rest assured they know all about it here in Europe. The subsidiaries would be the likely benefactor of the 'college product' which wasn't really what the glossy brochure indicated...

[poteroo]

I can't agree that instructor availability need be a problem. Plenty of G1s about who are under-employed or semi-retired. Pay us what we're really worth, (well above award!), as experienced Grade 1's with all the training approvals, and there would be dozens who'd re-locate to Toowoomba or Bendigo. But that probably is beyond the horizon of the bean counters on the QF flying school project.
happy days,

[Rated De]

I can't agree that instructor availability need be a problem. Plenty of G1s about who are under-employed or semi-retired. Pay us what we're really worth, (well above award!), as experienced Grade 1's with all the training approvals, and there would be dozens who'd re-locate to Toowoomba or Bendigo. But that probably is beyond the horizon of the bean counters on the QF flying school project.
happy days,

A market solution to a market shortage.
Precisely why they will not do it.

Recognising the shortage (albeit late) Little Napoleon and the herds of IR/HR are desperate to prove that there is no shortage.
The airline recruiting template was predicated on unlimited supply of qualified applicants, this paradigm existed for the last decades.
This 'school' is all about securing further unlimited supply of pilots.
The sweet irony is that the very thing they are fighting against (increasing terms and conditions, to induce more supply) demonstrates that the shortage is real!

[A320 Flyer]

“Four months before the first *Qantas pilot academy is due to open at Toowoomba’s Wellcamp Airport, the training provider has pulled out of the project and building designs are still to be finalised and lodged with the local council.

The US-based L3 Commercial Training Solutions confirmed the split with Qantas, but would not divulge the reason.

A statement provided by L3 Commercial Training Solutions said “we have been unable to reach an agreement to move the project forward at this time, however, we wish Qantas all the best in their next steps to open a world-class facility”.

Under the original contract, L3 Commercial Training was expected to provide trainers and about 40 single and twin-engine aircraft to the academy, with a view to training 100 pilots in the first year and up to 250 in subsequent years.

Qantas is expected to announce a new training provider in coming weeks and said the academy remained on track for a mid-year opening.

Wellcamp Airport was announced the winner of a national competition for the training academy last year, due to the owners’ ability to deliver the facilities by July.

Toowoomba’s Wagner family famously built the airport in just 19 months, and is believed to have stumped up considerable funds for the $35 million project, along with the Queensland government.

This week, John Wagner said the academy was progressing to plan but he declined to comment on the question over the training provider.

The executive manager of the Qantas Group Pilot Academy Wes Nobelius said it had been “a busy couple of months for the academy team with detailed design work under way”.

Designs for all of the facilities including hangars, classroom and accommodation were expected to be lodged with Toowoomba *Regional Council in coming weeks.

But student accommodation would not be completed before the academy opened.

“Naturally it takes time to have facilities designed, approved and built so to make sure we can start training as soon as possible, we’re looking at temporary accommodation for the first intake of students mid-year,” Mr Nobelius said

Qantas is understood to have had strong interest from budding pilots and a scholarship program was being developed to help some students achieve their dream.

The airline is yet to announce the location of a second pilot training academy, with eight regional centres in the running including Bendigo, Launceston, Wagga Wagga, Busselton, Alice Springs, Mackay and Dubbo.

Tamworth was scratched from the race after announcing a deal with Virgin Australia. The rival carrier is yet to announce a training partner but is believed to be looking at several options including the Hainan Airlines, Southern Cross University and CAE.”

[On eyre]

Meanwhile FTA (Flight Training Adelaide) who are hemmed in at Parafield have “soft started” a satellite training facility at Port Lincoln with four aircraft and completed ab initio training of reportedly Cebu Air students and now training reportedly Indigo students. The relatively uncluttered airspace on lower Eyre Peninsula is proving beneficial for FTA but local rec flyers are getting annoyed by the extra traffic particularly as FTA have a Development Application lodged for a multimillion dollar facility at Port Lincoln airport with up to 22 aircraft, an additional 65000 movements a year and decommissioning of an essential gravel runway. The natives are getting really restless particularly as the District Council of Lower Eyre Peninsula have failed to consult widely with the broader community of ratepayers.

[crosscutter]

QF and the Wagners all wanted too bigger slice of the profit pie for providing the fancy new facilities and student pool.

L3 told Qantas that instructors wouldn’t want to pay for the privilege of training future QF pilots leaving Alan dumbfounded.
“it really is unbelievable that instructors expect to be paid to fly these wonderful new machines,” said Alan.

The Qantas Flight Training Group executive were seen left scratching their nuts in a familiar teapot stance as L3 walked away leaving Qantas to wonder what providers are left that haven’t already been consumed by overseas airline academies.

Alan was heard screaming “you’ll be back!” as L3 were seen taking off on their private jet to establish another training facility this time in Portugal for 500 cadets a year.

[Rated De]

L3 told Qantas that instructors wouldn’t want to pay for the privilege of training future QF pilots leaving Alan dumbfounded.
“it really is unbelievable that instructors expect to paid to fly these wonderful new machines,” Said Alan.

Brilliant.

Might be time to engineer another terminal decline, game changing alliance, ground the airline or indeed construct a Potemkin village.

The Chairman's lounge memberships won't fix this one

[Popgun]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Gold.

In all seriousness though...It would be VERY easy to find instructors for this enterprise if they were contracted to flow to QF mainline (or JQ) after serving satisfactorily as an instructor for a certain period. They could even be given a seniority number so that they weren't junior to their students.

But that will never happen with the current QF Group psyche that values industrial division and more stick / less carrot.

PG

[Fieldmouse]

Virgin have reportedly finalised a deal with a local signwriter to amend the sign on the front door at BFTS. This is an important milestone as they near the commencement of operations in June this year. Lol!

[Brown Cow]

Any news on the academy? It’s meant to open soon isn’t it?

[Rated De]

Any news on the academy? It’s meant to open soon isn’t it?

And produce streams of graduates!

[B772]

L3 met with CASA !

[yetiaviator]

Is anyone aware of the questions they (fta) ask during the interview process? I got an invitation to sit the assessment day in Nov so keen to hear from anyone who knows what the experience was like?

[Sunfish]

Yes, the first question is how do you spell “process”, “receive” and to distinguish between “there” and “their”.

[yetiaviator]

Right! So you're saying they expect the candidates to come up with some Shakespearean sonnet ?

[LexAir]

You forgot "your" and "you're"

[Chris2303]

You forgot "your" and "you're"

And you forgot "yaw"

[Jetsbest]

And one mustn’t forget the importance of the correct uses of “then” and “than”.:}:ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Or this maybe.

How do you feel about parting with tens of thousands of dollars for absolutely no return?