UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system.

[Windy Militant]

UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933)

I bet they wished that they had stuck with Blue Streak now! Still dashed unsporting of those foreign Johnnies saying we can't use their system after we leave the EU.
Any one want to start a book on how much it will cost, I reckon five billion tops is a bit optimistic. Still at least we can get the Kiwis to launch the satellites, keep it in the Common wealth and all that eh! :roll eyes:

[Highway1]

Well all the expensive development is already done - the actual cost of shooting the hardware into space is at the cheaper end of the spectrum.

Not sure why we need our own though - what with GPS, GLONASS and Galileo i would have thought that there was plenty commercially available for anyone.

[wiggy]

Ah Blue Streak and ELDO.....whatever happened to the European launcher industry :E

Graham Turnock, chief executive of the UK Space Agency, said early feasibility work was under way into a UK system, which he said would cost a "lot less" than Galileo, thanks to work already done and "British know-how and ingenuity".

There had better be a lot of this “British know-how and ingenuity” stockpiled somewhere then because when certain politicians are asked how pretty much anything is going to be policed or work post Brexit the answer is always that there will be a “technological solution”...though the politicians are never clear on the details...

[ATNotts]

There'll be plenty of money available when we get our £350m per week back, sad thing is if it goes on a pointless UK GPS system it won't be going to the NHS - as if it ever was!!!

[meadowrun]

Fragmented sat/nav systems.
This would be a good global UN project. Standardize a system covering everyone. Might keep them from screwing up other things.

[Windy Militant]

"British know-how and ingenuity".
In which case I hope they've a bloody big teapot and an awful lot of digestive biscuits.*





*One of the engineers working on either Blue Streak or Black arrow was interviewed about the project, he said something on the lines of when the Americans had a problem they threw money at it until they trampled it to death. We on the other hand went off to have a think about it over a cup of tea and plate of digestive biscuits!

[VP959]

In which case I hope they've a bloody big teapot and an awful lot of digestive biscuits.*





*One of the engineers working on either Blue Streak or Black arrow was interviewed about the project, he said something on the lines of when the Americans had a problem they threw money at it until they trampled it to death. We on the other hand went off to have a think about it over a cup of tea and plate of digestive biscuits!

For several years I worked on a NATO Working Group, and something that always came up, without fail, was that there was a massive difference in expenditure on R&D between the US and the UK, yet the UK managed to get a heck of a lot more value out of every pound spent. The biggest problem is that the UK is bloody awful at turning ideas into reality. The most impressive country I've seen at doing that is New Zealand, that's a small country that really does punch way above its weight in some areas of technology development.

[Sallyann1234]

Galileo is now working extremely well. I use it every day. And the Chinese are busy launching more of their Beidou satellites.
We put a lot of effort, expertise and money into Galileo.
The basis access to Galileo is free, as it is with the others. Being outside the EU we will have to pay for its high precision services, but that would be still be vastly cheaper than building our own system that no-one else would pay to use.

[G-CPTN]

My (Volvo) car satnav can obviously identify where it is and uses a DVD-loaded map to direct me - however it recently went 'off-grid' when I decided to drive directly between two locations rather than use the main roads.
I obviously missed a turning (I was on country roads with few signposts) but, instead of recalculating (as usual when I divert from the specified route) it just went dumb until I retraced my steps and regained the designated route.
I don't know whether this was a GPS communication failure or whether the roads weren't on the mapping system - it could have been that the roads were unadopted as they led to private properties (though not signposted at such - just country farms.
Does my satnav communicate with the US system or the European system?

[Sallyann1234]

My (Volvo) car satnav can obviously identify where it is and uses a DVD-loaded map to direct me - however it recently went 'off-grid' when I decided to drive directly between two locations rather than use the main roads.
I obviously missed a turning (I was on country roads with few signposts) but, instead of recalculating (as usual when I divert from the specified route) it just went dumb until I retraced my steps and regained the designated route.
I don't know whether this was a GPS communication failure or whether the roads weren't on the mapping system - it could have been that the roads were unadopted as they led to private properties (though not signposted at such - just country farms.
Does my satnav communicate with the US system or the European system?

Depending on the age of your car, it will certainly use the original GPS - the US system. It might also use the Russian Glonass. Unless it is very new it will probably not be able to use Galileo. Your receiver won't switch between systems, it will use any and all of those it was programmed for. Obviously when it comes to getting a good fix, more is better especially in urban canyons or in wooded areas where much of the sky is obscured.

Under the forthcoming EU regulations that mandate auto-location of vehicles in accident or emergency situations, car equipment must be able to get a fix from Galileo. So new cars will be fitted accordingly.

[ORAC]

A GPS replacement doesn’t mean having to launch a new GPS constellation.

As stated there are Lready 3 GPS MEO networks in the sky; plus various LEO constellations - Iridium is one already being leveraged for accurate navigation services - and other s are being launched in their thousands; SpaxeX alone intends to launch about 20,000 by 2025.

As as long as you know we’re they are then all you need is a smart received with a chip based atomic clock. Consider it a 21st century form of celestial navigation - and it can’t be jammed......

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/487e/24483f22b43d57da78772dac9d20a948ec23.pdf

Navigation from LEO: Current capability and future promise : GPS World (http://gpsworld.com/navigation-from-leo-current-capability-and-future-promise/)

Satelles shows improved PNT accuracy from LEO constellation : GPS World (http://gpsworld.com/satelles-shows-improved-pnt-accuracy-from-leo-constellation/)

[MFC_Fly]

There'll be plenty of money available when we get our £350m per week back, sad thing is if it goes on a pointless UK GPS system it won't be going to the NHS - as if it ever was!!!

Please show us where it states that the £350m would all be used for the NHS.

[DON T]

Google Maps?

[ExXB]

Please show us where it states that the £350m would all be used for the NHS.
I’m pretty certain no one actually said it would, just that it could. But it is increasingly obvious that it will not be.

Also I don’t think it actually exists.

How’s that?

[MFC_Fly]

I’m pretty certain no one actually said it would, just that it could. But it is increasingly obvious that it will not be.

Also I don’t think it actually exists.

How’s that?

Exactly, the bus, oft misquoted, only said "let's fund our NHS instead" of sending all that money to the EU, not let's spend it all on the NHS.

As to whether it existed or not depends on how set in stone you see the UK rebate. Take away the rebate, which the EU could do if they so decided, and the actual gross figure has been calculated as even higher, actually more than £360m a week.

[Ogre]

Depending on the age of your car, it will certainly use the original GPS - the US system. It might also use the Russian Glonass. Unless it is very new it will probably not be able to use Galileo.

I don't care which system mine uses, but it needs to look out the window more often. There are a number of roads which are clearly signposted as one speed limit, yet the digitial map in my car has a different, lower speed limit.

I was browsing through my dashcam footage recently and realised that every time i travel these roads the nice female voice says "you are over the speed limit" and I more often than not reply "not according to the council..."

[Sallyann1234]

I don't care which system mine uses, but it needs to look out the window more often. There are a number of roads which are clearly signposted as one speed limit, yet the digitial map in my car has a different, lower speed limit.

I was browsing through my dashcam footage recently and realised that every time i travel these roads the nice female voice says "you are over the speed limit" and I more often than not reply "not according to the council..."
Nothing whatever to do with the GNSS receiver. That only says what it thinks your geographical coordinates are.
The digital map in your car, that tries to fit those coordinates to the nearest road, will be out of date the moment it is installed. And so many councils are changing speed limits that you would be well advised to ignore any prompts from the car.

[vapilot2004]

Can't trust the EU post-Brexit, and the US can switch their birds off at will more or less (war), so it makes sense.

[Sallyann1234]

Can't trust the EU post-Brexit, and the US can switch their birds off at will more or less (war), so it makes sense.
In the case of war, I don't think the UK will be needing its own GNSS for very long.
And I don't think the EU would turn off Galileo just to spite the UK.

[pr00ne]

vapilot2004, Sallyann1234

What does not make sense is that the entire UK space industry is owned by EU companies, so a UK only alternative is really a non starter. Another BREXIT disaster in the making. And, Sallyann1234, the worrying bit of the post Brexit GPS is that the EU only allows access to the encrypted military bit to EU members.

[Highway1]

vapilot2004, Sallyann1234

What does not make sense is that the entire UK space industry is owned by EU companies, so a UK only alternative is really a non starter. Another BREXIT disaster in the making. And, Sallyann1234, the worrying bit of the post Brexit GPS is that the EU only allows access to the encrypted military bit to EU members.


Does that matter - after all we would only go to war with the Yanks so would have access to their system. There was a story the other week that only 4 of Germany's fleet of 125 Euro-fighters were serviceable so I'm not sure what they think they are saving it for anyway.

[ShotOne]

Let’s not be under any illusions that we count on anything but contempt and obstruction from anyone in EU now. Even if the remoaners wet-dreams came true and they managed to contrive to baulk the leaving process. Here we have a straightforward deal where we’ve paid a very significant part of development cost and made a massive technical contribution. Yet suddenly we’re a “security risk”; not even any pretence of dealing reasonably

[ExXB]

ShotOne,
Well life’s a bitch. Isn’t it. But when you flip the bone at friends, don’t be surprised when they treat you like you are treating them.

[FakePilot]

Good for the UK. Although I would have thought inertial systems backed with beacons, terrain mapping, celestial etc would be all the rage considering the threats to a GPS.

[Krystal n chips]

Google Maps?





Ah, you could be onto something here, albeit not necessarily "Google "....

Given the desperation to leave the EU, the UK population need some morale boosting headlines and thus a perfect opportunity presents itself..

We therefore await.....

" UK goes it alone ! No more EU interference on our roads !. Sales of UK road maps set to soar ! "

The problems here of course being the confusion, and total bewilderment, for Sun readers, 50 % of Excess readers, the other 50 % being confused as to why there were no apocalyptic weather warnings on every page (Torygraph readers, in keeping with their military affiliations, would simply delegate to a minion ) and Mail readers who would be confused as to why there were colours other than red, white and blue when attempting to read.......a map.

[ShotOne]

"Life's a bitch.." Exxb, presumably you also consider Switzerland has "flipped the bird" by deciding not to join EU?
Playing hardball on exit terms isn't surprising but shutting us off from a system to which we've made major financial and intellectual contributions is a different matter. Especially when it's done on risibly bogus "security" grounds.

[Krystal n chips]

"Life's a bitch.." Exxb, presumably you also consider Switzerland has "flipped the bird" by deciding not to join EU?
Playing hardball on exit terms isn't surprising but shutting us off from a system to which we've made major financial and intellectual contributions is a different matter. Especially when it's done on risibly bogus "security" grounds.

Relax....once we've left the EU any technology relating to road travel will be rendered obsolete as the UK will dispense with all those contemporary signs for example and revert back to those from a period which holds so much nostalgia for so many on here.

Which one evokes the most for you ?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=old+uk+road+signs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRk8G93PXaAhXqKcAKHZqXA4IQsAQIJg&biw=1280&bih=855#imgrc=_&spf=1525769017332

[Sallyann1234]

Nah. We'll revert to the strategy last time Britain 'stood alone', and take down all the signposts to confuse those nasty immigrants. :ok:

[Highway1]

We therefore await.....

" UK goes it alone ! No more EU interference on our roads !. Sales of UK road maps set to soar ! "

The problems here of course being the confusion, and total bewilderment, for Sun readers, 50 % of Excess readers, the other 50 % being confused as to why there were no apocalyptic weather warnings on every page (Torygraph readers, in keeping with their military affiliations, would simply delegate to a minion ) and Mail readers who would be confused as to why there were colours other than red, white and blue when attempting to read.......a map.

It seems that the only person bewildered is you - Galileo isnt fully operational yet so even if it never came to the UK it would have no effect as we would continue to use GPS and GLONASS as we do now.

[ExXB]

[left]"Life's a bitch.." Exxb, presumably you also consider Switzerland has "flipped the bird" by deciding not to join EU?

Actually the EU understood that joining the EU was incompatible with our system of direct democracy (for example any act of Parliament can be overturned by a vote of the people). So we sat down with them and negotiated a series of bilateral accords, and everyone is happy.

[Sallyann1234]

It seems that the only person bewildered is you - Galileo isnt fully operational yet so even if it never came to the UK it would have no effect as we would continue to use GPS and GLONASS as we do now.
It seems that the bewilderment extends to yourself.

You misunderstand the purpose of Galileo.
It is not to replace the basic service of GPS and Glonass which are perfectly adequate to guide you in your car. It was designed to provide very high precision location in three dimensions for engineering, construction and navigation. That is what we are in danger of losing.

And although the last few satellites are still to be sent up, Galileo is already providing a full basic service.
​​​​

[Highway1]

It seems that the bewilderment extends to yourself.

You misunderstand the purpose of Galileo.
It is not to replace the basic service of GPS and Glonass which are perfectly adequate to guide you in your car. It was designed to provide very high precision location in three dimensions for engineering, construction and navigation. That is what we are in danger of losing.

And although the last few satellites are still to be sent up, Galileo is already providing a full basic service.
​​​​

Well done - as I was replying to a comment about car navigation how you made the leap to engineering and construction was really impressive.

Keep it up.. :ok:

[Krystal n chips]

Well done - as I was replying to a comment about car navigation how you made the leap to engineering and construction was really impressive.

Keep it up.. :ok:

Oh dear....
Given your inability to grasp sardonic humour, not forgetting the inability to distinguish between a road map, like wot u buy n a buk shop an a tele screen wiv moovin piccies (and a nice female voice telling you that you've just missed the turn) .....it's no great surprise to read that, when offered a polite and expansive answer which clarified the reasons for the concerns, as well as other uses for GPS, this proved a shade too complex for your intellectual assimilation.

[ORAC]

I would hesitate to suggest you are wrong - but I would be nervous to use an engineering or construction product produced using Galileo as their primary location aid - the Galileo Open Services accuracy being 4m horizontally and 8m vertically.

[Sallyann1234]

I would hesitate to suggest you are wrong - but I would be nervous to use an engineering or construction product produced using Galileo as their primary location aid - the Galileo Open Services accuracy being 4m horizontally and 8m vertically.
Of course you wouldn't. For such a project you would be paying to use the encrypted service that will give you a position with an accuracy down to 1cm.
That's what it is designed for.

[Highway1]

Oh dear....
Given your inability to grasp sardonic humour, not forgetting the inability to distinguish between a road map, like wot u buy n a buk shop an a tele screen wiv moovin piccies (and a nice female voice telling you that you've just missed the turn) .....it's no great surprise to read that, when offered a polite and expansive answer which clarified the reasons for the concerns, as well as other uses for GPS, this proved a shade too complex for your intellectual assimilation.

Well if you want to move the discussion away from cars to construction the EU has already said that it is the UK military that may be barred from using the encrypted positioning data, commercial companies will still be able to use the PRS (Public Regulated Service) parts of the system - so I dont think Wimpy have much to worry about there.

So whether its construction or car navigation the effect on businesses in the UK will be zero. Perhaps that clears up some of your bewilderment. :ok:

[ORAC]

Having done a little research, the EU is going to provide their commercial service free of charge, to preempt the Chinese and Japanese are who are also going to do so. Which apparently has all the commercial companies which helped along the way on the basis they would have the rights to sell it in various industries throw their toys out of the cot...

Note that the Japanese have their own GPS augmentation system - having your own is not necessary if you leverage off those already there - and as I have posted earlier, LEO augmentation based on systems such as Iridium are already proving just as accurate and at a fraction of the cost.

The DG of the EU GNSS, by and by, states the accuracy will be 20cm (8”), presumably horizontally.

http://insidegnss.com/fundamental-rethink-for-galileo-commercial-service/

[vapilot2004]

What does not make sense is that the entire UK space industry is owned by EU companies, so a UK only alternative is really a non starter.

Aside from the proposed system, I thought the UK will remain a partner in ESA. It seems a bit odd that they would be forced to pay for Galileo access after having worked (and continuing support) on the programme.

[Sallyann1234]

Aside from the proposed system, I thought the UK will remain a partner in ESA. It seems a bit odd that they would be forced to pay for Galileo access after having worked (and continuing support) on the programme.
Unfortunately the ongoing UK support for Galileo will be nil, with the removal of the control centre to Spain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-galileo-satellite-space-industry-move-from-london-to-spain-madrid-uk-a8165841.html

But it is to be hoped that we will be able to subscribe to the highest level of precision if only for individual projects.

[vapilot2004]

The more I hear about things like this, the more I imagine the leavers choosing the collective fate without having all the facts before them.

[Carry0nLuggage]

vapilot: The UK will remain in ESA but Galileo is an EU programme.

See here for what an Airbus UK boss has to say about it. Brexit to 'force work on Galileo sat-nav system out of UK' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44055475)

[vapilot2004]

Thanks Carry. :ok: I read that very piece just a bit ago, after perusing the news SA provided. The corporate guidance seems to have been baked in by the EU bureaucracy and demands the change - something that no doubt has been known for quite some time.

[Prophead]

For such a project you would be paying to use the encrypted service that will give you a position with an accuracy down to 1cm.
That's what it is designed for.

If any of our surveyors could only manage accuracy down to 1cm they would be off site pretty quick.

We can go down to under 1mm and that is in a long length of tunnel, using lasers and mirrors where GPS is useless.

[VP959]

I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about, as my understanding is that this is primarily a system intended to aid construction work.

When our ground workers were laying out the site for our new house a few years ago they used a GPS Total Station. This gave three axis accuracy of better than 20mm (IIRC the accuracy was around 10 to 20mm vertically, around 1mm horizontally). These things seem to be in common use in the UK, as the surveyor who did the initial site topographical survey used an automatic tracking version, so he could walk around and do the whole survey single handedly. IIRC, as well as getting a rough position using the normal GPS signal because the Total Station is positioned on site at a fixed location when measuring, it can use the relative phase of the GPS carrier to get very much higher levels of precision.

When there was an anonymous complaint that we'd built the house too high, I borrowed a Total Station, set it up on the fixed reference nail that was still in the lane and showed the planning enforcement officer directly that the house was actually slightly lower than the max allowed. Not a hard bit of kit to use - it takes longer to level it up than it does for it to acquire an accurate position and then make an accurate 3D measurement.

Not sure why the EU needs it's own system, given that everyone else seems to manage very well using GPS (or, perhaps, GLONASS).

I guess if the US decide to turn off GPS we'd be screwed, but frankly, how likely is that?

[vapilot2004]

I guess if the US decide to turn off GPS we'd be screwed, but frankly, how likely is that?

Who knows, since the incursion of the myopic and ignorant into the White House.

[Spunky Monkey]

The Americans have form switching off the GPS or scrambling it.
At Zero Hour -1 of the First Gulf War, the British Battle Groups were on the start line in Saudi, ready to cross the berm into Kuwait.
Then all of the GPS signals became scrambled and unusable to everyone except the US Forces.
They 'forgot' to tell the Brits and other Coalition Forces.
Due to the type of terrain and it being dark, navigation was pretty difficult at the best of times and would have meant that the timings for the operation would slip.
Not good for all concerned.
Those were the days when the military weren't as heavily dependant on GPS as they are now...it was still in its infancy.
The Yanks were surprised to see the Brits set off on time in the right direction with accurate fire support, despite protestations at National level to get the GPS signal unscrambled.
How did the Brits achieve all their objectives on time in such a difficult navigation environment?

They grabbed a Naval Officer with a Sextant and stuck him ontop of a 432 to direct the lead elements navigation.

[vapilot2004]

They grabbed a Naval Officer with a Sextant and stuck him ontop of a 432 to direct the lead elements navigation.
Thank G-d for clear skies (and minds).

[Sallyann1234]

The more I hear about things like this, the more I imagine the leavers choosing the collective fate without having all the facts before them.

You couldn't have expressed it better.

[ZeBedie]

I think a major aim of the EU satnav system is pay per mile road tax and other monitoring of car use.

[MG23]

I think a major aim of the EU satnav system is pay per mile road tax and other monitoring of car use.

Yes. Though I'm still not sure why they couldn't just use GPS.

As for the Americans turning GPS off, ha-ha, good one. They might try, but they'd soon discover just how much of the world is now utterly reliant on GPS for accurate timing, because a lot of things would quickly stop working. So many I imagine, that America could rapidly get to 'load the shotgun and prepare the bunker' levels.

[Dee Vee]

Yes. Though I'm still not sure why they couldn't just use GPS.

I have no idea how they did it, some said China somehow manipulated the map data companies like google had, but when I was in China a few years ago, using on your phone or imported GPS, google maps would always show your actual location (on a map) hundreds of metres away from where you actually were.

The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them :) )

[VP959]

I have no idea how they did it, some said China somehow manipulated the map data companies like google had, but when I was in China a few years ago, using on your phone or imported GPS, google maps would always show your actual location (on a map) hundreds of metres away from where you actually were.

The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them :) )

Locally jamming GPS is very easy, as is position spoofing over a limited area. A few years ago we had regular warnings of GPS outages around the Salisbury Plain area, which I am pretty sure was due to the testing of GPS jamming. Spoofing position is harder, but I remember seeing a demo of this at Farnborough about 20 years ago, so it's certainly possible to do it. IIRC, the spoofing worked by setting up fixed transmitters that faked the SV C/A code, complete with realistic velocity changes, that were more powerful in the local area than the GPS signal. The demo I saw was small scale, inside a hangar, but was just a proof-of-principle test.

Also, someone mentioned a while ago that you could buy cheap, portable, GPS jammers pretty easily, and these were used by car thieves to disable the GPS in any car on-board tracker.

[VP959]

Looks like there's a way to play the EU-27 at their own game: UK ups the ante on Galileo sat-nav project - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44116085)

Sounds a bit like the way the US keeps a pretty tight control on technology. Be interesting to see the reaction.

[Pontius Navigator]

While what VP said is perfectly valid and I have read novels where GPS spoofing was used, there is another possible cause - mapping datums. Typically GPS will use WGS 84.

The GPS shows your WGS position on the built in maps possibly using a different datum.

You find this in UK to with OS mapping based on a different datum.

Historical note:
We once had a target in a particular Middle East country. It was a particular complex in the middle of a city. The posit plotted 16 miles North of the city. No one could tell us which was correct.

[DaveReidUK]

The GPS shows your WGS position on the built in maps possibly using a different datum.

You find this in UK to with OS mapping based on a different datum.

Converting between WGS84 and OSGB36 is trivial. If your GPS or satnav doesn't support that, throw it away and buy one that does.

[Sallyann1234]

Ordnance Survey have an on-line coordinate converter
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/transformation/formats

and they provide software to download
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-and-government/help-and-support/navigation-technology/os-net/grid-inquest.html

Professional GIS software like MapInfo or ArcGIS will convert map projections and coordinate systems for anywhere in the world

[pr00ne]

VP959,

Not sure that threat will have the desired effect as the vast majority of the companies written to will be EU or US owned and would just transfer the work to their European or US factories and close down the UK operation, as they are doing with the Galileo control hub in Portsmouth that is moving to Spain. All those brave Brexiteers really do need to recognise what a globally integrated economy we are and how badly Brexit is going to damage it.

[Sallyann1234]

Britain's space agency has written to 13 firms to remind them that they need security authorisation to engage in any future contracts on the sat-nav system.
It is being interpreted as a threat to block UK tech developed for Galileo from being transferred into the EU-27.

Isn't this a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face?

Galileo is almost complete. There is probably little more for UK companies to add that isn't already documented.
We've already lost the secondary control centre.

If UK government blocks UK companies from doing more work for Galileo, who is that going to hurt?

[Loose rivets]

I'm surprised there isn't a major investment in Inertial Navigation. I'd have thought the technology had advanced hugely since the kit fitted in the 727 etc.

London underground, CERN, submar . . . oh, wait, they know how to navigate. Tonnes of kit strapped to the wall of a Boeing 707 reminds me of flying DC3's with Decca.

[Sallyann1234]

Inertial systems were being developed for automatic location reporting of emergency service vehicles. It was killed stone dead by GPS.

[Loose rivets]

It's hard to imagine that once INS was developed to even just current technology, the ability to abandon hundreds, or thousands? of satellites wouldn't be all too tempting. Jamming them would be a lot more of a challenge.

Even my cheap GPS can INS for short distances.

I guess the receiver costs would be much higher, so the vendors are very pro using for free the difficult part of the project. Just think, the adjusted cost of a GPS is a 1/20 th of the cost of a Sinclair Executive Memory in 1973

[Pontius Navigator]

Pr00ne All those brave Brexiteers really do need to recognise what a globally integrated economy we are and how badly Brexit is going to damage it.

You said it - globally integrated. That is exactly why we are leaving so we are free to globally integrate. It is the EU leaving us and withdrawing.

[ORAC]

I believe the encryption units in the Galileo satellites are UK manufactured and covered by various security agreements - perhaps even ITAR regulations (e.g. algorithms used to generate daily changing encryption codes). If the UK withdraws clearance for export then moving production abroad is not an option - unless those who do so wan5 to face long jail sentences. Additionally, use of any existing equipmen5 by Galileo if the existing clearances and licences were withdrawn would also be illegal.

In this instance the EU Commission really is cutting off its nose to spite its face.

[wiggy]

Locally jamming GPS is very easy,

FWIW according to some reports I’ve seen over the last few days “locally” can mean a fair chunk of the northeastern Mediterranean.....can’t imagine who would want to do that or why:E

[Sallyann1234]

I believe the encryption units in the Galileo satellites are UK manufactured and covered by various security agreements.....
​​​
They would also be covered by binding contracts with ESA/EU, and with ultimate reference to the ECJ.

You may be very sure that Galileo has been planned so that no one company or country can hold the project to ransom.

[ORAC]

They would also be covered by binding contracts with ESA/EU, and with ultimate reference to the ECJ. Which no doubt remain valid - but subject to government security/ITAR regulations.

Export regulations concerning the ability to supply the items under contract under EAR/ITAR/national approval is a standard contract Force Majeure clause.

[Sallyann1234]

Another lucrative enterprise for the lawyers.

[pr00ne]

And another Brexit Clusterf*ck!

[pr00ne]

Pontius Navigator,

Globally integrated but with customs and people movement barriers between us and our largest trading partner, in fact the WORLD's largest trading block. All those foreign companies who base their manufacturing in the UK and export 80% of production, over 50% to the EU, are going to face the issue of having to relocate inside that trading block, and guess what, they are the UK space industry as well.

Brexit, a trading and economic disaster!

[VP959]

And another Brexit Clusterf*ck!

I'm not at all convinced it is, it seems to be yet another deliberate attempt to adversely impact public opinion, almost certainly driven by the desire by the EU Commission to convince the populations of other EU member states that voting to leave the EU, and hence reduce the unelected power (not to mention the gravy train) of the commission, would not be a good idea. The timing of these scare stories seems deliberate - right now the EU has a (remote) possibility of a threat from the anti-EU faction in Italy, for example. There are also still some pretty strong anti-EU control sentiments being expressed by some Eastern European members, too.

The reality seems to be that this is almost certainly a non-issue. Either we'll be granted access to Galileo because we control some of the critical security related content, or we won't, and the EU and UK will do their own thing. The UK probably has greater choice, as we already have in place GPS accuracy augmentation systems, plus access to GPS P code for military requirements, thanks to the agreement we have had with the US for many years now. We could also choose to have our own system for not much more than we'd end up paying for Galileo if we chose to, I suspect, as SV costs are dropping and we already have the technical capability to build our own system.

[Sallyann1234]

It's worth noting that a dedicated UK system doesn't need to be worldwide.
We could copy the QZSS system developed by Japan, to improve availability and accuracy of the US GPS just over the UK. It would of course not be totally independent.

[Highway1]

It's worth noting that a dedicated UK system doesn't need to be worldwide.
We could copy the QZSS system developed by Japan, to improve availability and accuracy of the US GPS just over the UK. It would of course not be totally independent.


Galileo isn't independent - its controlled by the EU

[ShotOne]

The EU have boosted the argument for our own system; what's the point in our paying billions to share a system that they may to choose to lock us out of, either now or at some point in the future, perhaps when we urgently need it?

They've also given a financial incentive to go it alone; not a single penny we pay towards Galileo will now go to a British worker or company. At least the spend on our own system would remain within the UK economy

[ORAC]

https://www.ft.com/content/bb6bae54-5c3f-11e8-ad91-e01af256df68

Britain looks to Australia for help on Galileo rival

The UK is aiming to launch the first tenders for a satellite navigation system to rival Europe’s €10bn Galileo project (https://www.ft.com/content/8294b680-4d48-11e8-8a8e-22951a2d8493) by the end of the year, with hopes rising that Australia could become a partner in the programme.

Britain is expected to signal its determination to press ahead with its own programme in discussions with EU negotiators next week, should Brussels continue to insist that the UK be barred from secure elements of Galileo (https://www.ft.com/content/80dd2f68-3031-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498).

Two Whitehall officials told the Financial Times that Australia, which last week announced plans for a National Space Agency, had indicated potential interest in a UK project. However, this was at a very early stage and there had not yet been any formal contact on the subject, several officials said. The Australian government had no immediate comment on whether it would participate in a UK system.

The moves come as Britain prepares to put funding behind its threat to withdraw from Galileo, even though its preferred option is to remain in the programme. “For industry to carry out any work on a UK system they will need contracts,” said one official. Industry and Whitehall officials said the government was hoping to launch invitations to tender for initial engineering and design work in the next few months, barring unforeseen delays.

Although proposals for a UK system were only announced last month, the government has secretly been weighing plans for an alternative to Galileo since 2016. Two feasibility studies were commissioned from industry, the most recent last autumn, looking at what the UK’s needs would be and whether British companies had the capabilities required. The latest study estimated that a UK system could be delivered for about £3.7bn and would create some 5,000 jobs.

This month, the government created a task force charged with developing options for a system with both civilian and military grade signals. “That would not have been done if the results of the study were not positive. There is potential to create growth,” said the official. “This idea [for a UK system] has not suddenly appeared out of nowhere.”.........

[ShotOne]

"...put funding behind its threat to withdraw.." ? It's no threat to withdraw; the EU are kicking us out! Even if they were to back down, they could exclude us at any point. Pouring in more billions is now a total waste of money.

[ORAC]

That’s it - the UK is out of Galileo.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

[tescoapp]

Might be a blessing in disguise according to some that are in the project. The clocks have issues.....

UK has all the R&D knowledge and experience and the skills. Changing suppliers is going to add a new dimension for things that can go wrong.

The new cheap launch capability offered outside Europe will bring costs down along with new tech.

They reckoned it is quite likely that UK could have a functioning better system before the original project gets anywhere near full functionality (if it ever gets to the target due to the hydrogen mazzer clocks dropping like leaves.)

And funding is in doubt until everything is sorted out. And there is zero chance if it being complete with the current projected funding.

Its likely to turn into a very expensive tool for collecting road tax in central Europe.

[Sallyann1234]

Some rather contradictory messages here. :=

Apparently we are upset to have left the Galileo project due to you-know-what, and yet it's not working anyway so why are we bothered?

The problems with some of the maser clocks are very old news, and fully diagnosed. Each satellite has four clocks, and only needs one for operation.
Back in the real world, the system is fully operational and is just awaiting the last few satellites to be sent up. I'm currently on holiday using Galileo for navigation and getting very accurate fixes from the open service.

As for using Galileo for road pricing, if the UK ever manages to get a similar service working, (with emphasis on the 'manages') it will of course be used for road pricing. That will be one of the justifications for the huge expenditure.

[tescoapp]

Each sat does have 4 clocks two hydrogen Mazzer and two iridium to get fancy stuff it needs a mazzer working. And they haven't worked out what's going wrong mainly because they can't get their hands on a failed unit, Its very current news still. Maybe you know more than guys working on the project.

Out of the 22 sats up there two are in the wrong orbit...… And sort of work but again they can't take part in the fancy stuff.

The ones that are left 3 are the test beds, IOV stas and are coming to the end of their life, and they are working perfectly but running out of fuel.

So out of that 22 there is 11 sats functioning that are mainstream and 4 in commissioning for launch . From that lot that are up there and working there is 6 which are on there second mazzer with no back up. if that one goes they are onto the iridium clocks which means the high precision signal is not possible any more.

So out of 22 there at 5 satellites which could be deemed 100% functioning fit for use with backup with a long term future. They need 30 of them up there for a complete functioning system. Its going to cost the Uk the same if they build their own system or pay into Galileo more than likely less because the UK won't have to pander to partners national interests.

And they will have full control of the system instead of a partner disagreeing with foreign policy and turning the signal off.

Anyway we shall see what happens. Can't see it completing myself unless its just pure political force and weeing money up the wall to make it work to not loose face.

[MG23]

As for using Galileo for road pricing, if the UK ever manages to get a similar service working, (with emphasis on the 'manages') it will of course be used for road pricing. That will be one of the justifications for the huge expenditure.

Which is doubly silly, because VR and local manufacturing are about to make roads obsolete.

Central planning: always doing what would have been the right thing fifty years ago,

Maybe the UK should talk to Elon Musk and see if they can pay to have their clocks and transmitters added to his new Internet satellite constellation.

[wiggy]

TBH trying the follow the apparent expertise here and something has got me confused..I know what a maser is (played with those briefly, very many years ago)... is a “mazzer” something else or just another perhaps more modern acronym for the same piece of kit?

[tescoapp]

Rubbish typing to be honest, you are correct its a passive Hydrogen maser they use.

Two passive hydrogen masers with 10 -15 Allan deviation

And two Rubidium atomic clocks at 10 -12 Allan deviation.

They haven't had any problems with the Rubidium clocks, they haven't a clue what went wrong with the masers and they were all made by the same company. But the drop in Allan deviation when the second maser goes means its accuracy drops massively.

[wiggy]

OK thanks, stops me trying to work out WTH the zz could stand for...

[Sallyann1234]

Like I said, old news...

https://m.phys.org/news/2017-07-europe-galileo-satnav-problems-clocks.html

[tescoapp]

Like I said they don't know what's wrong with the hydrogen masers. They are closely monitoring them and shut them down before they self destruct. Then wait a bit and start them up again. Hardly a secure stable system.

Still doesn't change the fact that most of the satellites which haven't been up that long are now relying on a backup mode to keep running.

It's going to take loads more cash to sort it all out. We shall see what happens I suspect loads of cash to save face will be the order of the day. I suspect they will have to replace all the satellites anyway to lock the UK out of the encrypted signal. It's not as if they can send a bloke with a usb stick to update the security keys.

[Sallyann1234]

Sorry but you are talking nonsense. Wishful thinking perhaps, but nonsense.

The failure mode of the masers has been identified. There is no possibility of the satellites having to be replaced!

The security is not hard wired in the satellites. That would be an elementary mistake. The encoding can be changed at any time by command from ground control, and the UK no longer has its control station.

​​

[tescoapp]

We shall see what happens....


.

[Sallyann1234]

We can see now. It has happened.

[ORAC]

From what I have been able to find the fault identified concerned the Rubidium clocks, not the hydrogen masers. The fault was, apparently, caused by part of the system testing prior to launch.

Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.

https://www.orolia.com/media-center/news/news-2018/1122-orolia-secures-26m-galileo-critical.html

[tescoapp]

its a hardware fault short circuiting in the Rh clocks which they can't do anything about without visiting the satellites. Its not actually seen as a big problem because those clocks are backup.

The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.

The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.

So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.

It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.

even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.

I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.

We shall see what happens from the stands.

[BAengineer]

From what I have been able to find the fault identified concerned the Rubidium clocks, not the hydrogen masers. The fault was, apparently, caused by part of the system testing prior to launch.

Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.

https://www.orolia.com/media-center/news/news-2018/1122-orolia-secures-26m-galileo-critical.html


SpectraTime are part of the Orolia group.

[BAengineer]

its a hardware fault short circuiting in the Rh clocks which they can't do anything about without visiting the satellites. Its not actually seen as a big problem because those clocks are backup.

The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.

The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.

So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.

It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.

even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.

I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.

We shall see what happens from the stands.

So if the UK is booted out of the program we could have dodged a bullet.. :uhoh:

[Sallyann1234]

So if the UK is booted out of the program we could have dodged a bullet.. :uhoh:
It will take a while to catch up with this...

Galileo status (https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information)

[BAengineer]

It will take a while to catch up with this...

Galileo status (https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information)

Is there any rush?. From what I understand the main point of galileo is to introduce road pricing - well I'm in no hurry for that.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Is there any rush?. From what I understand the main point of galileo is to introduce road pricing - well I'm in no hurry for that.
Why not?

If you're not a petrolhead, then you should be in favour, as the petrolheads are going to pay more taxes.
If you are a petrolhead, then you should be in favour, as the plebs will be priced off the road, reducing congestion for you.

[BAengineer]

Why not? - well the purpose of road pricing isn't to make my life any better or cheaper, just more expensive. Someone is going to have to pay for all these fancy satellites - so step forward the UK motorist. :ugh:

[MG23]

Why not? - well the purpose of road pricing isn't to make my life any better or cheaper, just more expensive.

Don't forget tracking you everywhere you go. And increasing the cost of everything shipped by road. And encouraging trucks to take backroads instead of motorways to reduce the amount they're charged.

Edit: and don't forget that the only reason they need 'road pricing' is because of the CO2 madness, which means they're going to have to replace fuel tax soon because they're banning fossil fuels.

BTW, we have something like 20x as many road miles per person in this province as the UK does, yet we pay significantly less in taxes on fuel, sales, and income. And no-one's trying to track us everywhere to raise more.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Why not? - well the purpose of road pricing isn't to make my life any better or cheaper
Yes it is! - it will make it either better or cheaper.

Better if you choose to pay, as you'll have nice empty roads to drive along, not cluttered up with the plebs who can't afford to pay, so you won't get held up by congestion.

Cheaper if you choose not to pay, and either travel by some cheaper means or not travel at all.

You choice! - what's not to like? OK, if you choose better it might be more expensive, or if you choose cheaper it might be worse, but you do have the choice.

[BAengineer]

LOL - yeah :p

I cant think of anything the Government has introduced in the last 20 years that has made my motoring any cheaper or better. If it is not introducing 'improvements' like the M4 bus lane or those damn cycle tracks all over London, it is the way they keep changing the Road Tax system where somehow I always end up paying more.

So road charging is going to make my life better? - pull the other one.

[tescoapp]

it doesn't really matter what gives the position data be it this or GPS or any of the other global positioning systems.

I think you just have to accept that at some point they will be charging by the mile/km. When that will happen I have no clue.

For myself I do use public transport if I can but on earlies nothing is running at the time I need to move. And same when I get home from lates unless I am willing to cut into my 12 hour rest period by up to an hour waiting for a bus. If I am more than 40 mins late that's it for the night. UK I suspect its even worse than where I am, at least here they have an airport bus service that the first bus arrives 1 hour before the first morning departure and leaves 40 mins after the last arrival at night.

I have zero clue about early morning London Public transport. Would it be possible to get to work without unreasonable additional time being stolen from your life?

They will at some point try and recover the whole cost of the system to the user other wise its pretty pointless because they will have spent more on it that they will get back in taxes.

In some ways they have leaped frogged by technology as well as there is now several ways of getting similar resolution using conventional GPS. DGPS gets down to 10cm and SBAS gives 1 meter horizontal and 1.5 meters vertical. So it will all come down to cost of the high res signal. Those that need it already have DGPS. They are portable by one person and don't take long to setup, most of the time is waiting for the error to resolve down. But for some waiting half a day until the error resolves down for 10 cm will make the cost worth it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

cycle tracks all over London
Every bicycle you see is a car you're not seeing (yes, even the children - if they weren't cycling they'd be blagging lifts off their parents). Which gets less in your way?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think you just have to accept that at some point they will be charging by the mile/km.
Much better would be a thing you could call a "congestion charge", where you are "charged" for taking part in "congestion" - you would pay not for the mile but for the time you spent stopped (or moving very slowly) in traffic. This would address your concern about people who have to drive to work early in the morning when there is no public transport, and wouldn't charge people for driving on empty roads not causing any problems.

It would have to be somewhat sophisticated, eg if you deemed three cars waiting at a red light to be "free flowing" normal operation, but four cars waiting at a red light to be "congestion", but hey, it all means more work for programmers :ok:

Actually, you could just buy the data off Google - charge people per second spent anywhere that is coloured red or worse on Google Maps.

[tescoapp]

I don't have a problem with charging for road usage at peak times to be honest.

It wouldn't need to be number of cars at a set of lights and it would also have economic implications for bank holiday weekends which would destroy income in some areas and possibly would cause huge bills through no fault of the driver.

Just use KISS, set times with green amber and red charging periods in set areas. Areas with no pollution issues no charge and no time restrictions.

[ORAC]

Which would work if the underlying rationale was really about pollution - instead of about raising taxes to replace fuel duty as fossil fuels are phased out.

[Skipname]

I find it very worrying for my paycheck to see how many people in here seem to be okay with increased taxes, whatever they might call it.

Do we not pay enough taxes already? Why should the government be entitled to more of my money?

[pax britanica]

This whole thread was joke right?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Do we not pay enough taxes already?
No.
Why should the government be entitled to more of my money?
Because people are forever complaining that public services are inadequate, and making them better costs money.

[BAengineer]

No.

Because people are forever complaining that public services are inadequate, and making them better costs money.


Nothing at all preventing you paying more tax if you so wish. HMRC will take a cheque.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Nothing at all preventing you paying more tax if you so wish.
And I did, for some years, pay more tax than I could have got away with, having chosen not to indulge in the full range of NI fiddles available to the self employed. And whilst a councillor I reduced the costs on the public purse by mostly not claiming the expenses to which I was entitled (to some extent, it must be admitted, because I couldn't be arsed with the paperwork, rather than solely because the council needed the money more than I did).

[Skipname]

Because people are forever complaining that public services are inadequate, and making them better costs money.

People are complaining about the public services because they feel (or at least I do) that they are paying too much for the services they receive. Before Obama had his way with the health insurance I lived in USA for a while and I was paying 99$ a month for health insurance. While I was there I had the misfortune to require medical assistance, I received a 5 star service and I was very impressed with the whole thing. Now move forward few years and I am paying for the national insurance in UK a lot more than that for a service that is average at best. Where is the value for money?

Every month the government takes about 1/3 of my pay cheque before it even reaches my account. Add the council tax, VAT on everything I purchase plus various other taxes and well over half my money goes to the government in taxes each month. How is that justifiable and why would people want to pay even more is beyond me.

[VP959]

People are complaining about the public services because they feel (or at least I do) that they are paying too much for the services they receive. Before Obama had his way with the health insurance I lived in USA for a while and I was paying 99$ a month for health insurance. While I was there I had the misfortune to require medical assistance, I received a 5 star service and I was very impressed with the whole thing. Now move forward few years and I am paying for the national insurance in UK a lot more than that for a service that is average at best. Where is the value for money?

Every month the government takes about 1/3 of my pay cheque before it even reaches my account. Add the council tax, VAT on everything I purchase plus various other taxes and well over half my money goes to the government in taxes each month. How is that justifiable and why would people want to pay even more is beyond me.

National Insurance predates the NHS by a few decades, and isn't primarily to fund the NHS.

As for value for money, then, in terms of cost per head of population the NHS isn't bad. I posted this link a while ago when the subject of the relative cost of health care in various countries came up in another discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

TL;DR : Doesn't look to me as if the NHS is really that bad, it seems to be around average, at the 17th most expensive health care system in that list, and less than half the cost of health care in the USA, and even slightly less costly than health care in France.

[tescoapp]

Currently a load of tax is generated at the fuel pumps and is a consumption tax.

With a move away from hydrocarbons (which is a good thing) that cash has to be recovered somehow. Fuel receipts were just under 28 billion last year in the UK.

How to do that with something you can plug into a domestic supply.

Only way really is another consumption tax with some form of logging.

The varying the rate between location and time of day is just pure social engineering. Trying to stop school runs and trying to spread traffic load out.

But that really that was just an excuse for this project. It could have been done with any global positioning system. Military users that required the accuracy really only France and UK and now the UK is gone.

Precision industrial users, I think the business projection are way way over the mark. In its conception in 2004 then yes it would have been ground breaking. These days DGPS is readily available, cheap and easy to use.

Ignoring the arguments about if the sats that are up there which were meant to be good for 20 years plus will have to be replaced inside 20% of the planned lifetime. The fixed running costs are estaimated at 750 million per year which I suspect along with all the other predictions on cost will more than likely end up in the region of 1 billion. So 5 euros for each car in Europe per year with UK gone.

So personally I am glad we are well away from it, it has a stink about it and political is overriding technical and business cases.

Should UK get a system of its own? Gut feeling no. Do I think if it does go for it that it will be cheaper and more useful for what UK wants, then yes.
Tech has come along way since 2004 more options and we can use the falconX to get stuff up instead of Araine which the EU is politically and contractually tied into using.

And the point about the security, apparently the security stuff does need license to be handed over to the project. It is black box tech there are multilayers some are changeable form the ground some are hard coded. I presume there is also back door keys for a final resort to reclaim the network. 2004 china was still involved and no talk about countries leaving the EU. With the current state of play of paper work it is highly unlikely legal terms were created for such an event. So its a complete minefield and while there is UK produced tech in the system they will never be confident it is secure.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

National Insurance predates the NHS by a few decades, and isn't primarily to fund the NHS.
NI is just another tax on income, it's not hypothecated.

The reason it still exists (it should have been amalgamated into income tax decades ago) is so that governments can promise not to increase "tax" and then when they put up NI they claim that because the tax called "national insurance" doesn't have the word "tax" in its name then they haven't put up "tax".

[tescoapp]

And there is also the hidden part of NI which is the Employers contribution which they can also tinker with which has no link to the company making a profit.

[BAengineer]

The reason it still exists (it should have been amalgamated into income tax decades ago) is so that governments can promise not to increase "tax" and then when they put up NI they claim that because the tax called "national insurance" doesn't have the word "tax" in its name then they haven't put up "tax".


I thought the reason it had not been amalgamated into Income Tax is that we still have a basic welfare system that is based on contributions, so to do away with NI you would have to totally revamp the entire welfare system of the UK.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I thought the reason it had not been amalgamated into Income Tax is that we still have a basic welfare system that is based on contributions, so to do away with NI you would have to totally revamp the entire welfare system of the UK.
There's a fair amount to sort out, yes. There has been some progress - the alignment of some thresholds so that income tax and NI bands now start at the same place is a deliberate part of the process - but at the current rate it's going to take several more decades.

[Daysleeper]

People are complaining about the public services because they feel (or at least I do) that they are paying too much for the services they receive. Before Obama had his way with the health insurance I lived in USA for a while and I was paying 99$ a month for health insurance. While I was there I had the misfortune to require medical assistance, I received a 5 star service and I was very impressed with the whole thing. Now move forward few years and I am paying for the national insurance in UK a lot more than that for a service that is average at best. Where is the value for money?
.

You're just plain wrong on this....the UK NHS offers much better value for money than the US system patient outcomes are broadly the same between the systems and the UK spends far less (about 10% of GDP on healthcare, the USA about 17%) Put that in cash terms what the NHS is really good at is providing cost-efficient care. It spends $3,405 per person per annum, less than half America's outlay of $8,508.
For reference in 2005, before the Obama reforms 45 Million Americans under 65 lacked basic health insurance.

Anyhow we are way off topic. Maybe we need a sat-nav to get back...

[tescoapp]

you mean like the USA GPS has been transmitting a secondary unencrypted frequency since 2014 and phase 3 satellites will all be on line by 2020?

This means everyone can get atmospheric adjusted position fix down to 10 cm using a dual channel hand receiver for free?

[Skipname]

You're just plain wrong on this....the UK NHS offers much better value for money than the US system patient outcomes are broadly the same between the systems and the UK spends far less (about 10% of GDP on healthcare, the USA about 17%) Put that in cash terms what the NHS is really good at is providing cost-efficient care. It spends $3,405 per person per annum, less than half America's outlay of $8,508.
For reference in 2005, before the Obama reforms 45 Million Americans under 65 lacked basic health insurance.

Anyhow we are way off topic. Maybe we need a sat-nav to get back...

I love it when people tell me I am wrong about something that I personally experienced. Let me give you more details about the experience and then you can tell me how wrong I am again.

Before Obama had his way with the health insurance (I don't know if his system is better or worse, I left USA before he made the changes) I was paying 99$ a month for a comprehensive health insurance, excluding dental insurance. On a Friday afternoon I went to see a doctor because I was experiencing some pain. He was unable to make an accurate diagnosis and sent me to the emergency room. When I arrived at the emergency room and gave them the note from the doctor they gave me some liquid to drink and shortly after I had an MRI scan. Not long after they told me that I need to have a surgery. I asked when they can do it and they said now. Next thing I know I was on the surgery table. Within less than 24 hours I got there, I had a diagnosis, surgery and was discharged from the hospital with a follow up check a week later. The hospital was like a 5 star hotel, clean, private room and bathroom and the staff very friendly and helpful. I never got any bills or anything.

Last month in UK I paid 397£ and my employer payed 524£ for national insurance. The only time I tried to book an appointment with a GP I was given a date which was a week and a half later and thankfully that ends my dealings with the NHS. However someone close to me fell off their bike and was scheduled for an MRI three months later!

How is the patient outcome pretty much the same between the two system? If I ever need medical assistance I know which system I rather took care of me.

As for the last part of your reply, besides my family I do not owe anybody health care or a living. I know it sounds harsh but that is the way I see things.

[VP959]

I love it when people tell me I am wrong about something that I personally experienced. Let me give you more details about the experience and then you can tell me how wrong I am again.

Before Obama had his way with the health insurance (I don't know if his system is better or worse, I left USA before he made the changes) I was paying 99$ a month for a comprehensive health insurance, excluding dental insurance. On a Friday afternoon I went to see a doctor because I was experiencing some pain. He was unable to make an accurate diagnosis and sent me to the emergency room. When I arrived at the emergency room and gave them the note from the doctor they gave me some liquid to drink and shortly after I had an MRI scan. Not long after they told me that I need to have a surgery. I asked when they can do it and they said now. Next thing I know I was on the surgery table. Within less than 24 hours I got there, I had a diagnosis, surgery and was discharged from the hospital with a follow up check a week later. The hospital was like a 5 star hotel, clean, private room and bathroom and the staff very friendly and helpful. I never got any bills or anything.

Last month in UK I paid 397£ and my employer payed 524£ for national insurance. The only time I tried to book an appointment with a GP I was given a date which was a week and a half later and thankfully that ends my dealings with the NHS. However someone close to me fell off their bike and was scheduled for an MRI three months later!

How is the patient outcome pretty much the same between the two system? If I ever need medical assistance I know which system I rather took care of me.

As for the last part of your reply, besides my family I do not owe anybody health care or a living. I know it sounds harsh but that is the way I see things.

You're wrong because you seem to think that National Insurance pays for the NHS - it doesn't, as has been pointed out in previous posts. NI was originally brought in to pay for social welfare, not health care, and now isn't dedicated to paying for anything, although it does still determine state pension entitlement.

The hard facts, using the latest (2016) data, are that health care in the USA costs $9,892 per head, health care in the UK costs $4,192 per head. In other words, the US health care system costs twice as much per head as the UK system, and the US is the most expensive health care system in the world. The UK is the 17th most expensive out of the 35 countries from which data is available.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Last month in UK I paid 397£ and my employer payed 524£ for national insurance.
So what? - that's got nothing to do with your contribution to the NHS.

(History lesson: Once Upon A Time NI was supposed to be how you paid for the entire welfare state - of which I think the largest chunk was the old age pension? - but it has long since lost the hypothecation and been subsumed into general taxation. It's now just a component of income tax by another name.)

[Sallyann1234]

"The UK Commons Select Committee for Science and Technology yesterday hauled government bigwigs in to explain themselves in light of the latest round of Galileo handbag-swinging."

Galileo, here we go again. My my, the Brits are gonna miss EU (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/27/galileo_uk_gov_sci_tech_committee_grilling/)

[tescoapp]

Quiet surprised they expect to get any of the Galileo stuff.

Also no mention that the security stuff requires a license to export to another country so per say the next manufacturer is going to have to re-invent the wheel.

[Sallyann1234]

You're right that they don't seem bothered about that at all.
Perhaps you'd better tell them?

[Windy Militant]

Maybe the solution is going to be a bit more organic
BBC Radio 4 Question time Space Oddessy

I wonder what the panels solution for the Galileo problem will be! :} ;)

[ORAC]

Sunday Telegraph reporting Galileo replacement system has been given the government go ahead, signed off by both PM and Chancellor. First £100m in funding for contracts has already been signed off by the treasury.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/25/theresa-may-orders-space-race-brexit-sat-nav-system-rival-eus/

[Father Dick Byrne]

Only to be cancelled in short order when the horrors of a no-deal Brexit reveal themselves and the cash starts to run out. The programme will never happen. It’s anyone’s guess what access the UK might have to high resolution position data.

[Nemrytter]

As someone who works on the Galileo programme, the UK has absolutely no chance of coming up with its own version any time soon - no cash and not enough expertise. Political posturing and nothing else.

[Sallyann1234]

Another £100m down the Brexit drain. Isn't it costing enough already?

The programme will never happen. It’s anyone’s guess what access the UK might have to high resolution position data.
I can answer that right now. It will simply be decided that we can manage without it.

[rogerg]

Salyann, you seem to have a very good crystal ball, like a lot of other people with opposite views.

[tescoapp]

For on the ground stuff SBAS is already getting rolled out. DGPS is already in use and working well for those outside SBAS coverage.

My prediction is neither system will see the light of day.

[Sallyann1234]

My prediction is neither system will see the light of day.
Galileo has seen the light of many days. Its teething troubles have not stopped it providing a reliable service.

[Pontius Navigator]

Would we not be better buying into an American system? Not withstanding ups and downs, knee jerk reactions, etc we have had a close real special relationship through nuclear deterrence for over 5 decades, a relationship no other State has been close to.

[flash8]

Not sure why we need our own though - what with GPS, GLONASS and Galileo i would have thought that there was plenty commercially available for anyone.
Nor me, heck I use a GPS as an end-user, supposed to have GPS+GLONASS for improved accuracy, turn off GLONASS (Russian) whether in Moscow, half-way across Uzbekistan or somewhere else in SE Asia to see the difference and it still works just as accurately...

I'm not sure coverage is extended or accuracy (around 5 metres) whether I had one, both switched on, everything seemed exactly the same....

Now Satphone coverage (Voice+Data) are a different matter.... I can well understand the rationale behind adding a few sats for national Security.

[tescoapp]

There is more than enough, but its political control over the services which is the major pissing match.

The high accuracy stuff has been leap frogged for commercial users there is now a multitude of services which can be used free with a suitable receiver.

The main military user who was also a high contributor is now banned from using the service.

Budget and income predictions are now just fantasy land for Galileo. It just going to turn into a colossally expensive transport taxing system and the only way they can make it work is by making it law all cars for the Eu market are fitted with it. A colossal percentage of that market is now evaporating.

We shall see if Galileo survives. If it does it will only be for political reasons.

[Nemrytter]

tescoapp, as expected from someone who didn't even know that Galileo has already seen "the light of day" your post is nonsense. I find it very interesting that a certain type of person seems to demonstrate a perfect inverse correlation between amount of knowledge about a given subject and willingness to express an opinion on that subject. It's pretty pathetic, tbh.

[Pontius Navigator]

tescoapp, as expected from someone who didn't even know that Galileo has already seen "the light of day" your post is nonsense. I find it very interesting that a certain type of person seems to demonstrate a perfect inverse correlation between amount of knowledge about a given subject and willingness to express an opinion on that subject. It's pretty pathetic, tbh.
10% ball, 90% man. What is your point other than deriding Tescos?

[Nemrytter]

That was my point, to be honest. I don't suffer fools gladly. If he cares to educate himself a bit (I'm sure there's a ladybird book that can help) then I'd be happy to have a proper discussion, however.

[Sallyann1234]

The main military user who was also a high contributor is now banned from using the service.
​​​
Have you told the French military yet? Somehow I don't think they are going to be pleased.

[tescoapp]

It hasn't seen light of day. There is a cobbled together low Res service which gives no difference service to the other gps services. Incomplete sat coverage.

More than half the sats are running with degraded systems. ie no redundancy of core systems.

The core system for the advanced Res is having to be manually run from the ground to prevent further failures.

the French are now the only mil user of any note, unless of course they start selling munitions to 3rd parties.
Light of day sort of ie if you have a receiver you can pick something up.

Fit for use and can deliver the unique service that it's meant to...... It's still in twilight zone never mind dawn and well away from day light.

[Sallyann1234]

Latest four Galileo satellites launched and being commissioned.

https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information

[tescoapp]

yep leaving 12 more to get launched, plan for 2 in 2020, 2 in 2021.

leaving 8 post 2022.

And that's not replacing the broken birds.

700 million a year fixed costs. And no funding confirmed past 2020.

[Sallyann1234]

yep leaving 12 more to get launched, plan for 2 in 2020, 2 in 2021.

leaving 8 post 2022.

And that's not replacing the broken birds.

700 million a year fixed costs. And no funding confirmed past 2020.

You keep on about these alleged "broken birds". Perhaps you would like to tell us where you get this information from, other than years-old reports?

Some of the early satellites did have clock problems, but these have been largely worked around and the later ones are working normally. Only two of the originals are currently held out of service.

When the four newly positioned satellites are fully commissioned there will be 21 providing normal service. Contracts for some of the later ones are still being negotiated. Some of these are for hot spares and not required for immediate service.

[tescoapp]

the reports tell you they are broken, I do though have had other pub condensed chat which comes from a place where your pint shakes on the table every week at exactly the same time and day. But nothing that's not public domain its just straight talk without the political waffle and fluffing of the situation.

Only the latest sats which have just gone up have the short circuit fixed in the iridium clock and a changed maser clock.

Out of the 22 sats up there two are in the wrong orbit...… And sort of work but again they can't take part in the fancy stuff.

The ones that are left 3 are the test beds, IOV sats and are coming to the end of their life, and they are working perfectly but running out of fuel.

So out of that 22 there is 11 sats functioning that are mainstream and 4 in commissioning for launch . From that lot that are up there and working there is 6 which are on there second mazzer with no back up. if that one goes they are onto the iridium clocks which means the high precision signal is not possible any more.

So out of 22 there at 5 satellites which could be deemed 100% functioning fit for use with backup with a long term future.

So out 26 in orbit only the latest 4 are good. And 5 that haven't had any failures yet but still have problematic hardware. All the rest are either, end of life, out of orbit, or have no backup.

There is no work round for the short circuit. The maser work round is ground monitoring and control.

Low res went live in 2016 no date yet for the high res service. By which point the sbas system will be rolled out so the commercial market in Europe will already have other options apart from DGPS. No license still in the USA so its illegal to use even the low res signal.
A few car systems can use it and Iphones and a couple of other smart phones.

Currently the service is no different to GPS. The emergency stuff they have got working I believe with a 2 km resolution.

[Sallyann1234]

.
So you can offer nothing other than pub gossip.

A few car systems can use it and Iphones and a couple of other smart phones.
Like your other pub information, that's out of date. Most Android phones now support Galileo. My 18 month old Samsung uses Galileo.

[tescoapp]

Unless they have been sending up repair teams and fixing hardware in orbit with out me seeing details my information is very much current. The everything is ok now is a EU press fluff release.

There are three makes of smart phone who can accept the low Res signal. But none can in the USA.

​​​​​​But crack on, we shall see what happens in the future. It will be highly political if they cancel or not. Your opinion that I am an idiot and I am talking nonsense will make absolutely zero difference to the out come.

[Sallyann1234]

The US do not allow the use of any other GNSS. They did not and do not like other nations having positioning systems that the US cannot switch off or control. That's their problem to deal with, although I understand that the EU has requested clearance for Galileo in the US. That of course gets tied up with trade issues.

Naturally it took manufacturers some time to update hardware and software to cater for Galileo reception, and existing devices cannot be retrofitted. Smartphone makers buy in GPS chips from manufacturers like Broadcom, and all GPS chips now made for smartphones and other devices fully support Galileo.

If the UK does decide to go ahead with its own GNSS, there will of course be a similar delay of a few years while manufacturers catch up. They may not bother to do so, since smartphone users will already be well served with existing systems including Galileo. The only applications for a UK system will be the military and a few specialised functions.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

.
My 18 month old Samsung uses Galileo.
and it puts you - let's see - "currently within the EU"..
Good enough for Govt work!;)

[Sallyann1234]

and it puts you - let's see - "currently within the EU"..
Good enough for Govt work!;)
No, it puts me anywhere in the world except the US.
It certainly worked in Singapore.

[Sallyann1234]

A final note for you, tescoapp.
Car manufacturers in the UK wanting to sell in the EU will have to fit Galileo as original equipment to meet EU regulations.
So if you drive a car made in the EU or the UK, or one made elsewhere to sell in the EU, you will be using Galileo whether you like it or not.
I'm sure it will get you promptly to your destination. :ok:

[BAengineer]

The US do not allow the use of any other GNSS. They did not and do not like other nations having positioning systems that the US cannot switch off or control. That's their problem to deal with, although I understand that the EU has requested clearance for Galileo in the US. That of course gets tied up with trade issues.


Are you sure about that? - I am currently sitting in Missouri and my cellphone has no problem using GLONASS with GPS switched off - its currently using 4 of their satellites..

[Sallyann1234]

Are you sure about that? - I am currently sitting in Missouri and my cellphone has no problem using GLONASS with GPS switched off - its currently using 4 of their satellites..
That certainly used to be the case, because the US authorities were concerned about an accurate positioning system over the US that they couldn't control. So they didn't license reception of the over there and manufacturers were supposed to block reception there. How strictly that was followed in practice I don't know, but certainly the EU are still negotiating an agreement for Galileo. If your phone can receive Glonass, that's good.
Incidentally, which phone are you using? Most don't allow allow you to select which GNSS to use - they are all on or off..

[Pontius Navigator]

A Fellow of the Royal Society for Navigation says with 4 systems in being, and ours 10 years down the line, we would be better going for sLogan as an accurate unjammable backup.

[tescoapp]

They will have all of the various flavours fitted as you say it's only a chipset. I suspect all GPS boxes will have all of them. Why not? recieving the low Res signal is free. If one drops out you can use another one. You have 3 sets of data available so you can pick up a fix quicker.

The US it is illegal to receive anything other than GPS. If you have hardware which is not officially US import model it will likely receive all of them. If you root your device you can also remove the restriction. If you blow a new os onto an android device such as Cyanogen you can also get round it.

They have no real way of knowing what you are recieving. But it stops people marketing services utilising the other systems.




But we shall see what the political choice is if the project continues to be funded or not. Loads more cash needs to be spent to get the full functionality and the market for the commercial product has pretty much evaporated. Thanks to dgps becoming more economic and mainstream and sbas being rolled out through Europe. Anyone that needs accuracy can already do it with a brief case of kit. Or a single box that can receive sbas.



Personally I don't think it will survive but we shall see. The financial side of things is going to get interesting.

​

[ORAC]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/30/brexit-uk-may-never-recover-12bn-invested-in-eu-galileo-satellite-system

.......On Friday, May officially announced that the UK would be pulling out of the system and made no mention of any attempt to recoup the UK’s investment.

“The commission decided that we would be barred from having full aspects of the Galileo programme and so it is right for us to look for alternatives because it would be wrong to put our [armed] services relying on a system on which they couldn’t be sure of,” May told reporters in Buenos Aires while attending the G20 summit. “That would not be in our national interest.”

She added: “So what is in our national interest is to say no, you haven’t allowed us full access, so we will develop an alternative, we will look at alternative options, we are doing that work but we will work with other international partners to do so as well.”

Whitehall sources said the issue of the £1.2bn was yet to be finally resolved because the UK could still choose to be involved in commercial aspects of the system.

“We will be discussing our past contributions to the financing of Galileo in the upcoming talks,” a senior UK official said.

Downing Street said the UK would explore options to build its own Global Navigation Satellite system to help guide military drones, run energy networks and other commercial uses. May said the UK had “world-class engineers and steadfast allies around the world. We are not short of options.”

Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, said the development of a new system would be an opportunity to draw on British skills and expertise in satellite technology. “Space poses a new and increasingly dangerous front for warfare and it is crucial to push ahead with plans for our own world-class, independent satellite system,” he said.......

[pr00ne]

ORAC,

​​​​​​"Downing Street said the UK would explore options to build its own Global Navigation Satellite system"

Once again, this nonsense completely ignores the fact that the entire UK satellite design, engineering and manufacturing industry is foreign owned, mainly by EU nations, and post Brexit the work will be moving from the UK to Spain, France and Germany. The UK control centre is already moving from Swanwick to Spain.

[Sallyann1234]

A Fellow of the Royal Society for Navigation says with 4 systems in being, and ours 10 years down the line, we would be better going for sLogan as an accurate unjammable backup.

I assume by that you mean eLoran. A great system for shipping, but very little use for mobile applications . Its low frequency (100kHz) means it needs a large receiving aerial, and it is very vulnerable to local electrical noise.

[wiggy]

ORAC,

​​​​​​"Downing Street said the UK would explore options to build its own Global Navigation Satellite system"

Once again, this nonsense completely ignores the fact that the entire UK satellite design, engineering and manufacturing industry is foreign owned, mainly by EU nations....

I’m sure there this has been thought through at the highest level and that there is already a plan in place to spend some of the Brexit dividend on buying the likes of SSTL from Airbus.....:oh:

[pr00ne]

wiggy,

Are you suggesting nationalisation?

[wiggy]

Heaven forbid.......just thinking through the reality of "taking back control".......:bored:

Edit to add:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/03/brexit_satellite/

[pr00ne]

Seeing as BAE Systems sold all of the UK satellite manufacturing in the first place you can hardly expect them to be buying anything back.

[Sallyann1234]

The whole idea of a new UK GNSS is preposterous.

It's yet another example of politicians dreaming something up without consulting anyone who actually understands the reality.

[wiggy]

Seeing as BAE Systems sold all of the UK satellite manufacturing in the first place you can hardly expect them to be buying anything back.

I'm sure some think anything is possible once we've "taken back control" and saved all that dosh by not being in the EU.

( Just to be clear, and to avoid any possible further confusion, no I don't think there will be any nationalisation or BAe buy back)

[KelvinD]

I have always found the paper version of GPS (a map) was pretty reliable. Except, of course, in the Empty Quarter! In fact, using GPS once caused me a bit of a flutter when showing a couple R.N. types around Kuwait post Gulf War 1. We had a radio site literally on the border with Iraq and the matelots were busy picking up souvenirs from the debris left behind by the Iraqi forces. I looked at the GPS and was informed I was in Iraq by some distance. A quick check on the paper version (an aeronautical chart of the area), proved I was still in Kuwait.

[TWT]

I watched this documentary about the construction of Astra 2F by Astrium in the UK. Very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWDUA630jjI

Astrium was formerly EADS Astrium and is now part of Airbus Space.and Defence. Sites at
Stevenage and Southhampton in the UK.

What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?

[Sallyann1234]

What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?

The same as all the other foreign-owned industries. They will stay or go according to their owners' requirements.

They will 'take back control' .

[Widger]

What will become of these facilities after Brexit ?

they like other manufacturers will move to were it is cheapest to produce the product.

[ORAC]

I am very cynical that the constellation could be used as a replacement GPS system without replacing all the satellites with ones designed for purpose.

On the other hand, as the USA did with Iridium, the UK has a chance to acquire a large satellite comma system for pennies, and at the same time save it as a UK technology base rather than let it be snatched up by the USA, or worse China through who has companies asking to bid.

https://www.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-2d2f-4bb4-aa9b-b24493315140

UK scales back plans for £5bn rival to Galileo satellite system

Ministers are set to scale back plans for a £5bn sovereign satellite navigation system — a project championed as a symbol of post-Brexit Britain — and are considering a groundbreaking alternative that would cost billions less and could draw US support.

Former prime minister Theresa May announced plans for a British rival to the EU’s Galileo system in 2018 when the UK was kicked out of the satellite project after Brexit; Boris Johnson endorsed the plan last year shortly after succeeding her. Mr Johnson’s allies confirmed the government was reviewing “Theresa May’s plan”, amid warnings about its high cost, but work is under way to see if Britain could develop a much cheaper satellite navigation capacity at a fraction of the estimated £5bn price.

Officials are exploring the potential for a system that would deliver the same civil and military tracking services as Galileo and GPS of the US while operating at a lower altitude and on a different frequency.

One option is to use OneWeb, the UK-licensed satellite operator that collapsed in March, as the platform for the new technology. Industry estimates say it would cost roughly $1bn to develop. OneWeb, which has 74 satellites in low earth orbit and plans for several hundred more, is further ahead on regulatory approvals than rivals, say several people close to the discussions. However, any such proposal would require government support for OneWeb, which is the focus of a bidding war after entering Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection three months ago. It would also require UK-based OneWeb to be sold to a British bidder.

Late last week Boris Johnson ordered ministers to move quickly to convene a meeting of the National Space Council, which has been in limbo since its launch a year ago, to fast-track decisions on a UK navigation service, as well as a series of other space-related initiatives. People close to the situation said no firm decision on the preferred option had yet been taken by the government and it remained “finely balanced”. But officials have consulted Airbus, the UK’s leading satellite maker, has confirmed that a low earth orbit navigation system could be developed at substantially lower cost.

Moreover, the US is pushing its partner in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing alliance to avoid replicating the GPS system, said three people with knowledge of the situation. “The Americans do not think a British Galileo would be sufficiently different to GPS,” said one. “They understand the vulnerabilities of GPS. They want something technologically different.” US officials had been drawn to the idea that key navigation technology could be “hidden in plain sight” on up to 80 of OneWeb’s planned 648 satellites, making them harder to compromise, according to two people who held discussions with both US defence officials and the UK government.

In early March, Stuart Martin, chief executive of the Satellite Applications Catapult, told the Financial Times that while it would be challenging to develop this “cutting-edge” technology on satellites at low orbit, the UK had the expertise and it would be highly exportable. “This would offer something genuinely different that enhances GPS,” he said. “It is another way to achieve a global system at lower cost and it makes more economic sense.”

OneWeb, which has been locked in discussions with officials for several weeks, has pledged to move satellite production from Florida in the US to the UK if management wins government support for its bid. However, the company will also have to raise at least $1.5bn from private investors to fund the launch of the remainder of its satellites. The group was forced into bankruptcy protection after failing to secure funding from investors including its biggest backer SoftBank.

David Morris, the Tory MP who chairs the parliamentary space committee, said the UK should seize the opportunity to support OneWeb. “Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service. The government could put a fraction of that into the LEO OneWeb system, securing a global commercial operation for the UK.”

[Sallyann1234]

I am very cynical that the constellation could be used as a replacement GPS system without replacing all the satellites with ones designed for purpose...
Of course, they would have to be replaced. All that could be salvaged are the orbital slots and the frequency allocations - which were not obtained for GNSS use and would need regulatory approval.
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.

[ATNotts]

Of course, they would have to be replaced. All that could be salvaged are the orbital slots and the frequency allocations - which were not obtained for GNSS use and would need regulatory approval.
Then there is the minor issue that the new system is unlikely to be compatible with existing receivers.

Given the fiasco of the UK going it alone on the Covid-19 tracing app, I fully expect this daft idea, forced upon the UK by daft decision, will be late, and dysfunctional.

[Pontius Navigator]

It is a bit like the VHS. Betamax, Philips systems. If one had come in years before the others, who would have invented two others.

The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?

GPS may be vulnerable but how long would a new system be less vulnerable.?

[Sallyann1234]

Don't worry. It'll never happen.

[n5296s]

how long would a new system be less vulnerable
Any system that depends on accurately receiving nanowatts of power from outer space is vulnerable to jamming. And any system which involves one-to-many communication with millions of receivers cannot be protected cryptographically, and is therefore also vulnerable to spoofing. Any claim otherwise is just hot air.

[ATNotts]

The British system will be 'World beating' and exportable. To whom and why? Why pay for something that someone else provides for free?

This is a constant theme, where we British believe everything we have is "the best in the world" or "world beating".

We've got the best legal system in the world, the best health service in the world, a world beating Covid-19 tracking system, the world's best climate, the world's best universities; and I'm sure our virtually unique (outside of the Commonwealth countries) three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world.

Most of these claims are false; however we are among the best in most of the fields, save the for the climate over which we as little old UK has no control.

Our air of self importance and supremacy has got us where we are today; largely deluded.

[Mr Mac]

ATNotts
My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesmen / women in the world, but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in many experience.

A friend used to use the analogy of setting up a house in the UK where you have an unlimited budget so apart from the actual land, and possibly (but not guaranteed) the building there of,which British products would you put in it ? As I like music I know I would use UK Hi-Fi (I do) which is probably the best in the world, however at significant cost, and all other products from flooring on up would probably be sourced outside of the UK which says it all really. "World beating" is something we have largely left behind in the race to make things cheaper, much the same has occurred in the US as well.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[Asturias56]

"I'm sure our virtually unique (outside of the Commonwealth countries) three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world"

Absolutely - until you stand on one in the dark and you're crippled for life.................

[Asturias56]

The UK is fairly good at lots of things - and very good at some others - things like finance, music, very high end tech (Dyson, RR, F1 cars), some biological sciences

Unfortunately these aren't were most people work

[Mr Mac]

The UK is fairly good at lots of things - and very good at some others - things like finance, music, very high end tech (Dyson, RR, F1 cars), some biological sciences

Unfortunately these aren't were most people work
Asturias 56
Not sure I am in the market for F1 car or a McLaren / Bently etc and have had Dyson product and after a lot of discussion reached a financial settlement with said company over damage caused to carpets not to mention reliability. As for finance I think it is a two edged sword and for an individual or indeed company I have never found UK institutions to be any good in that line even when we were UK based. They are very good when times are good, but appalling when 2008 came about, hence we as a company no longer use UK Banks or Insurers. By Biological sciences I assume you mean research rather than production. As for Music, yes I agree though probably because English is the "world" language which undoubtedly helps. As you say these are small areas of the economy, and not where most of the UK population work, and as we have such a large population this specialisation would really only work if we were say the size of Switzerland. Indeed if you count Swiss leading brands in some of the fields you mention eg Roche,Suzler, and any number of banks, then perhaps that is what the UK should follow, but what do you do with the other circa 40m people !!
Cheers
Mr Mac

[ATNotts]

Mr Mac

My experience and observations is that we have perhaps some of the best salesman in the world but delv and product are unfortunately a little lacking in man

Our salesmen (and women!!) may well be excellent, however so many of them, when confronted with a non-native English speaker are left with little alternative but to wave their arms wildly and shout very slowly in English! This puts us at an immediate disadvantage against our European brethren in many cases. My former German colleagues were usually fluent in at least two foreign languages, generally English, plus Spanish and or French and or Italian.

No we can all sit their high and might and say "everyone speaks English" but that simply isn't true, and people you are selling to are always more comfortable when talking in their own language. Talking "foreign" for any length of time can be mentally tiring.

Cheers!
ATN

[Mr Mac]

ATNotts
Yes I should have added women (I have altered that in the post ) and your observation re the language is unfortunately quite true. In our office we use German and English commonly but we have (I just checked with HR) 9 other languages spoken by our staff at fluent technical level. As you say we have around 51% German staff and all have a good if not excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Cheers or should I say Prost !
Mr Mac

[ATNotts]

ATNotts
Yes I should have added women (I have altered that in the post ) and your observation re the language is unfortunately quite true. In our office we use German and English commonly but we have (I just checked with HR) 9 other languages spoken by our staff at fluent technical level. As you say we have around 51% German staff and all have a good if not excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Cheers or should I say Prost !
Mr Mac

Mr Mac,

Zum Wohl!

ATN

[Denti]

No idea about other european countries, however, in most german states to get A levels you need to have two foreign languages in the mix. German, however, is optional ;)

English is usually a given, the second language can be usually chosen dependent on staff available, although sometimes schools in a city pool pupils into one course for the more rare languages, like russian or mandarin.

[Pontius Navigator]

​​​​​excellent knowledge of English with some having even a slight English dialect from when they were in UK !
Mr Mac

Which can often be quite surprising. The Indian waiters at Faslane with broad Glaswegian. The German, with immaculate American English of another German woman with good English "she is very common, you can tell from her German" and a French exchange school girl , beautiful English but very coarse French.

Finally a French waiter in Biarritz, immaculate English that 'e 'ad learnt in 'alifax. 😀

PS, met a young man from Singapore, also immaculate and idiomatic English. Until two years previous he had had no English at all. It can be done.

[ORAC]

No good at languages at all.

6 years French at school and then, many years later, I lived in Paris for two years, but working in an English speaking multinational environment. Result? Pidgin French which I have mostly lost.

Later lived in Spain for 3.5 years, again working in an English speaking environment. More determined this time I took Spanish evening classes 5 days a week for 6 months. Similar result at the end, pidgin Spanish which I have mostly lost - worse, I now mix up by French and Spanish vocabulary.

Always good with numbers and STEM subjects, absolutely terrible with names. People think I’m joking for not remembering their names after knowing them for years. I think it’s that whole left-right brain thing.

[ATNotts]

Always good with numbers and STEM subjects, absolutely terrible with names. People think I’m joking for not remembering their names after knowing them for years. I think it’s that whole left-right brain thing.

No, I'm afraid it's an age thing!!

Also to some degree a technology thing. I used to keep tens, probably towards one hundred phone numbers in my head; then along comes the mobile phone. Now I can't remember my daughter's numbers - don't need to because they're on my bl***y phone! Tech will slowly turn us into brainless morons, if we allow it to.

[ORAC]

No, couldn't remember names when I was a Flt/Sqn Cdr back in my 20/30s. had to have a wall of photos and go over it almost daily and still got by lots of times by avoiding using names most of the time.

At the same time they tried out new test papers on me because I had the reputation of knowing all the manuals and ODMs back to front and usually got a 100%.

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, I know what you mean about Franish. I once ordered 13 coffees.

[ORAC]

ORAC, I know what you mean about Franish. I once ordered 13 coffees. That must have been a doozy.......

[farci]

UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933)

I bet they wished that they had stuck with Blue Streak now! Still dashed unsporting of those foreign Johnnies saying we can't use their system after we leave the EU.
Any one want to start a book on how much it will cost, I reckon five billion tops is a bit optimistic. Still at least we can get the Kiwis to launch the satellites, keep it in the Common wealth and all that eh! :roll eyes:
This will provoke a hollow laugh from anybody in UK familiar with the recent Test & Trace debacle (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/track-trace-debacle-testing-chief-tells-mps-doesnt-know-many/)

[Mr Mac]

No idea about other european countries, however, in most german states to get A levels you need to have two foreign languages in the mix. German, however, is optional ;)

English is usually a given, the second language can be usually chosen dependent on staff available, although sometimes schools in a city pool pupils into one course for the more rare languages, like russian or mandarin.
Denti
My PA speaks Russian, though she was born in what was East Germany, and her parents spoke it, so not unsurprising maybe although she was born in 1991 so post wall removal. However her knowledge of English / French /Spanish/ Italian / Arabic is a little more of a challenge for my limited skills ie German and Spanish, but the later is from South America (Chile) so when I worked in Spain in late 80,s I got ribbed about my "old" Spanish. Also in Bavaria, as you may know the accent is some what different to my Northern German accent, again causing some smiles amongst my staff. Mind you I always used to struggle when trying o understand excited Glaswegians when they were speaking English, God knows what other people from overseas do !

Orac
I have the same issue, but I do remember faces, so when meeting a new team or client who I recognise, we play the old 10 questions about careers to find where we last were working together. As my sector is a little like the travelling circus, I am not alone thankfully in this. Mrs Mac who is 10 years younger however, seems to remember everything about the people she works with, including children's names, and even their careers which I would have no hope with, which maybe why she is better at her career than me !!

Cheers
Mr Mac

[radeng]

AT Notts

three-pin electrical socket system is the safest in the world.

Except that the '13 Amp' plug is only rated at 10 amps continuous and gets hot at 13.....

[LowNSlow]

I had a young Kazakh lad working for me back in the naughties. We were having a quiet time and I spotted him reading a Spanish language book.

"Why are you learning Spanish Adil?" says I

"I'm going there on holiday in 6 months, I should be pretty fluent by then and it's rude to arrive in a country without being able to communicate!"

I shut up at that point as my Kazakh was non-existent and my Russian was seriously ropey! He actually was fluent when he left thus adding Spanish to his stock of other languages: Kazakh, Russian, Turkish and English!

[Asturias56]

"perhaps that is what the UK should follow, but what do you do with the other circa 40m people !!"

For £400 million (1960 - prices) you could send them to Australia - LOADS of space

[Mr Mac]

Asturias
I thought we had done that sometime ago, and they do not want us anymore, something about wining Poms !!. I have never been down there, but told by those that have to skip Aus, and move straight onto NZ ! Ironically we maybe picking up a contract in NZ which will be a first for us, so I may get to see what all the fuss is about soon.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-puts-500m-into-satellite-race-6v783gzj2

Britain puts $500m into satellite race

Boris Johnson is poised to secure the $500 million part-purchase of an American satellite operator as the first step in creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.

The prime minister and Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, signed off the purchase of a 20 per cent stake in OneWeb, an operator of low-earth orbit satellites, last night. Although the government technically is making a bid for the stake, British officials said the transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

OneWeb, which has its headquarters in Britain, filed for bankruptcy in March partly because of the pandemic. Other states, including China, are believed to have been interested in taking a stake. The firm already has 74 of a planned 650 satellites in orbit and claims to be able to deliver broadband and military and civilian GPS on completion......

Senior ministers were being briefed on the purchase at a special meeting of Cobra last night. It is not yet clear whether the relocation of OneWeb’s satellite manufacturing from Florida to Britain was a condition of the government taking a stake.

Airbus is likely to emerge as supplier of the low-earth satellites in any network, industry sources said. It is unclear when the purchase will be made, but it is understood that Alok Sharma, the business secretary, has been tasked with completing the deal.

The purchase of OneWeb will be intended as a statement that Mr Johnson remains committed to a sovereign system despite the ravages of the pandemic. A well-placed source warned that the purchase was “messy”, however, and may not provide best value for money. An industry expert said: “We probably won’t ever know whether it’s a good deal or not.”

[krismiler]

For £400 million (1960 - prices) you could send them to Australia - LOADS of space

The 1960s Ten Pound Poms were beneficial to both Britain and Australia as this movement of people had the effect of raising the average IQ in both countries.

[Sallyann1234]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-puts-500m-into-satellite-race-6v783gzj2

Britain puts $500m into satellite race

Boris Johnson is poised to secure the $500 million part-purchase of an American satellite operator as the first step in creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.

The prime minister and Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, signed off the purchase of a 20 per cent stake in OneWeb, an operator of low-earth orbit satellites, last night. Although the government technically is making a bid for the stake, British officials said the transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

OneWeb, which has its headquarters in Britain, filed for bankruptcy in March partly because of the pandemic. Other states, including China, are believed to have been interested in taking a stake. The firm already has 74 of a planned 650 satellites in orbit and claims to be able to deliver broadband and military and civilian GPS on completion......

Senior ministers were being briefed on the purchase at a special meeting of Cobra last night. It is not yet clear whether the relocation of OneWeb’s satellite manufacturing from Florida to Britain was a condition of the government taking a stake.

Airbus is likely to emerge as supplier of the low-earth satellites in any network, industry sources said. It is unclear when the purchase will be made, but it is understood that Alok Sharma, the business secretary, has been tasked with completing the deal.

The purchase of OneWeb will be intended as a statement that Mr Johnson remains committed to a sovereign system despite the ravages of the pandemic. A well-placed source warned that the purchase was “messy”, however, and may not provide best value for money. An industry expert said: “We probably won’t ever know whether it’s a good deal or not.”
Perhaps Boris could ask Huawei to get it working for him.

[Mr Mac]

Sallyann 1234
Not sure if it is just me, but $500m seems a little cheap, its the price of 3-4 secondary schools, or one medium sized hospital in the UK.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[rogerg]

$500 million part-purchase, not the whole thing.

[Sallyann1234]

Sallyann 1234
Not sure if it is just me, but $500m seems a little cheap, its the price of 3-4 secondary schools, or one medium sized hospital in the UK.
Kind regards
Mr Mac
The money seems to be for part-purchase of a bankrupt satellite operator, and nothing more.
Another larger investment would be needed to complete the project as the planned communications network.
To change the system to operate on the same principles as existing GNSS would require complete replacement of all hardware both in space and on the ground, so not a wise investment from that point of view.

But I recall that when the OneWeb system was originally promoted there was a suggestion that it could have a secondary function as a positioning system. I haven't taken the trouble to read up on the theory of this - it will be on the web somewhere - but it would be totally incompatible with existing receivers and of unproven accuracy. If Boris has bought into OneWeb in the expectation of making such use of it I hope he taken much expert advice.

[ORAC]

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/06/government-to-splash-500m-on-oneweb-broadband-satellites.html

https://sa.catapult.org.uk/news/horizon-technologies-and-satellite-applications-catapult-partner-to-track-ships-engaging-in-illegal-activities/

https://insidegnss.com/leo-successor-to-gnss-comes-knocking/

[Curious Pax]

Would be beyond ironic, but not altogether surprising with Boris’s track record if we find ourselves in a hi tech joint venture with the Chinese!

Back to languages- I’ve done 2 stints in The Netherlands over the years, both in English speaking work environments. Picked up enough to get the gist of what people are talking about (sometimes to their embarrassment as they didn’t realise how much I understood. However by the time of the second stint we had produced CP junior. He was 5 when we got there, so we put him in the local Dutch school rather than send him to the British School. His teachers were very good, and after 4 months or so he was fluent with no trace of an English accent. We came back when he was 8, and a year later when Dutch friends visited he could still speak Dutch but was, they told me, no longer thinking in Dutch as his sentence construction had changed to indicate he was translating from English as he went along. 12 years later he claims to remember none of it, though I do sometimes threaten to drop him in a non English speaking part of the country so he could see how quickly it came back. I suspect a couple of weeks if people refused to speak English to him!

[Mr Mac]

Curious PAX
My cousin was a skipper in the Merchant navy, firstly in UK then Europe, on Blue Water ie long haul container ships. His wife is Swedish, and they live in Germany. When their children arrived, a Dutch nanny was employed, and the kids grew up using Dutch/ German / English/ Swedish as a sort of alphabet soup. When they were small they would start a conversation in say English, and then if they did not know an English word they would borrow a German/ Swedish / Dutch one to fit. Made for some bazaar conversations. They are all grown up now but are still multilingual though the Dutch is a might rusty I think, but the language skills have definitely helped in their careers, and indeed outlook on life.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[ATNotts]

Mr Mac

I think you'll probably agree that if you speak English and German then reading and comprehending Dutch is not that difficult. However speaking it, or trying to understand what is being said I find very difficult, verging upon impossible. I did think that if as a result of the lockdown I had too much free time on my hands I'd have a crack at distance learning Dutch, just to see if i could get to grips with it orally. Sadly, or happily I wound up working harder than I was before lockdown as a result of somewhat fortuitous circumstances, but it's an idea I will keep on the back burner.

Cheer, ATN

[krismiler]

Many job advertisements in Belgium and Holland specify a requirement for fluency in Dutch, French, German and English, or simply "quadrilingual". Speaking only three languages would put you at a significant disadvantage in the employment market.

[ShotOne]

“Way beyond ironic if we found ourselves in a joint venture with the Chinese...”. Yes: heaven forbid we should invest a large amount of money and intellectual capital to a project then find ourselves excluded from it!

[Mr Mac]

Mr Mac

I think you'll probably agree that if you speak English and German then reading and comprehending Dutch is not that difficult. However speaking it, or trying to understand what is being said I find very difficult, verging upon impossible. I did think that if as a result of the lockdown I had too much free time on my hands I'd have a crack at distance learning Dutch, just to see if i could get to grips with it orally. Sadly, or happily I wound up working harder than I was before lockdown as a result of somewhat fortuitous circumstances, but it's an idea I will keep on the back burner.

Cheer, ATN
ATN
The Dutch word or phrase I never seem to here is "its my round".
Cheers
Mr Mac

[radeng]

Sally Ann[QUOTE]
Perhaps Boris could ask Huawei to get it working for him.[/QUOTE

We do have a 'home grown' expert with a lot of experience in launching low cost satellites, including one that is still working while well over 20 years old. Boris could do a lot worse than call in Professor Sir Martin Sweeting of Surrey Satellite Communications - his track record is extremely good...

[wiggy]

You know at this stage in our lament about Uk's inability to manage space "stuff", and our supposed expertise on this I'm going to shout "Black Arrow"...(which my late father worked on as a sub-sub-subcontractor) and ask if the UK has really progressed at all in it's understanding of spaceflight at all in the last 50 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow

[ATNotts]

You know at this stage in our lament about Uk's inability to manage space "stuff", and our supposed expertise on this I'm going to shout "Black Arrow"...(which my late father worked on as a sub-sub-subcontractor) and ask if the UK has really progressed at all in it's understanding of spaceflight at all in the last 50 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow

I'll raise you TSR2, which my Dad was working on.

[Sallyann1234]

Not to mention (so I will) our pioneering of nuclear power generation. We let our expertise lapse and now have to buy in from abroad.

[ORAC]

The UK actually does have a world class and thriving satellite industry - we just pay someone else for delivery, as does/did OneWeb.

Delivery rates from companies such as SpaceX are remarkably cheap, and falling, with other companies joining the market.

[ORAC]

UK consortium offer accepted.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/3/21312456/uk-oneweb-500-million-space

UK government takes $500 million stake in space exploration firm OneWeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53279783

[Big_D]

Further bad news, but at least we now have a stake in a bankrupt company.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-53251942

[Sallyann1234]

"We are talking about the biggest Earth observation project in our history. When you look at what it's achieved - to not be involved would be idiotic," he told BBC News."This is not something the UK can replicate on its own. The amount of money, time and expertise means something like Copernicus can only be done across countries and to not be at the heart of it would be a huge mistake."​
The heart sinks.

[ORAC]

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/commercial-space/new-agreement-enables-use-us-launchers-british-spaceports

New Agreement Enables Use Of U.S. Launchers From British Spaceports

Lomdon and Washington have signed off on security arrangements that will pave the way for U.S. cubesat and small-satellite launchers to be lofted into low Earth orbit from UK spaceports.

Two years in the making, the Technology Safeguards Agreement (TSA), signed in Washington on June 17, permits U.S. companies to operate from UK spaceports and eases the export of space launch technology between the two countries. While it is not unusual for one country to want to launch satellites from another, transferring the launch systems is wrapped in complexity—due in part to counterproliferation rules such as the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), to which the UK and U.S. are both signatories.

“Space launch vehicles are technically indistinguishable from weapon delivery systems, so transferring a space launch vehicle from one country to another is caught by the MTCR,” Andrew Kuh, head of international spaceflight policy at the UK Space Agency, tells Aviation Week. Kuh has been closely involved in the negotiations. “The TSA sets out how the U.S. and UK governments will work together to ensure that technology is not transferred . . . [and] making sure it is handled in an appropriate manner,” Kuh adds........

One of the clear beneficiaries of the TSA is Lockheed Martin, which secured £31 million ($39 million) in funding from the UK Space Agency in July 2018 to set up launch operations from Space Hub Sutherland in northern Scotland with U.S.-developed launchers. Company officials had previously suggested they could use the Electron launcher, leaning on their partnership with Rocket Lab. The agreements also smooths the way for Virgin Orbit, which received funding to support horizontal launch operations from Cornwall Airport Newquay in England.......

Before launches begin, however, the TSA needs to be ratified by the British Parliament. Lawmakers also must approve the UK’s new Spaceflight Regulations, which are expected to move to a public consultation phase this summer. The regulations will build on the UK’s regulatory framework for aviation and will confirm how licenses will be granted for spaceports, launch vehicle operators, and for the provision of range and control services.

While U.S. launch companies may undertake the first launches from the UK, several British satellite launch companies such as Orbex and Skyrora are waiting in the wings to join them. Skyrora recently carried out a full static firing of its Skylark L suborbital rocket, work that supports the development of its three-stage Skyrora XL launcher.

Canada-based launch company C6 Launch Systems Inc. has said it wants to use the planned Shetland Space Center, a vertical launch site planned for Saxa Vord in the Shetland Islands. The company told Aviation Week that it does not expect any export restrictions for its launch vehicle, although the UK/U.S. TSA will help with the export of the engines.

The UK is seen as an attractive launch location for access to polar and sun-synchronous orbits.......

Britain wants to be able to launch satellites as part of its strategy to grow the country's domestic space industry and capture 10% of the global commercial space market by 2030, equivalent to around £40 billion.

[Big_D]

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/commercial-space/new-agreement-enables-use-us-launchers-british-spaceports

New Agreement Enables Use Of U.S. Launchers From British Spaceports

Lomdon and Washington have signed off on security arrangements that will pave the way for U.S. cubesat and small-satellite launchers to be lofted into low Earth orbit from UK spaceports.

Two years in the making, the Technology Safeguards Agreement (TSA), signed in Washington on June 17, permits U.S. companies to operate from UK spaceports and eases the export of space launch technology between the two countries. While it is not unusual for one country to want to launch satellites from another, transferring the launch systems is wrapped in complexity—due in part to counterproliferation rules such as the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), to which the UK and U.S. are both signatories.

“Space launch vehicles are technically indistinguishable from weapon delivery systems, so transferring a space launch vehicle from one country to another is caught by the MTCR,” Andrew Kuh, head of international spaceflight policy at the UK Space Agency, tells Aviation Week. Kuh has been closely involved in the negotiations. “The TSA sets out how the U.S. and UK governments will work together to ensure that technology is not transferred . . . [and] making sure it is handled in an appropriate manner,” Kuh adds........

One of the clear beneficiaries of the TSA is Lockheed Martin, which secured £31 million ($39 million) in funding from the UK Space Agency in July 2018 to set up launch operations from Space Hub Sutherland in northern Scotland with U.S.-developed launchers. Company officials had previously suggested they could use the Electron launcher, leaning on their partnership with Rocket Lab. The agreements also smooths the way for Virgin Orbit, which received funding to support horizontal launch operations from Cornwall Airport Newquay in England.......

Before launches begin, however, the TSA needs to be ratified by the British Parliament. Lawmakers also must approve the UK’s new Spaceflight Regulations, which are expected to move to a public consultation phase this summer. The regulations will build on the UK’s regulatory framework for aviation and will confirm how licenses will be granted for spaceports, launch vehicle operators, and for the provision of range and control services.

While U.S. launch companies may undertake the first launches from the UK, several British satellite launch companies such as Orbex and Skyrora are waiting in the wings to join them. Skyrora recently carried out a full static firing of its Skylark L suborbital rocket, work that supports the development of its three-stage Skyrora XL launcher.

Canada-based launch company C6 Launch Systems Inc. has said it wants to use the planned Shetland Space Center, a vertical launch site planned for Saxa Vord in the Shetland Islands. The company told Aviation Week that it does not expect any export restrictions for its launch vehicle, although the UK/U.S. TSA will help with the export of the engines.

The UK is seen as an attractive launch location for access to polar and sun-synchronous orbits.......

Britain wants to be able to launch satellites as part of its strategy to grow the country's domestic space industry and capture 10% of the global commercial space market by 2030, equivalent to around £40 billion.

Any chance we could launch Boris and his band of merry men into the outer space?

[dead_pan]

a vertical launch site planned for Saxa Vord in the Shetland Islands

No plans for a horizontal launch site too?? We've got to push the bounds in Brexit Britain.

[Sallyann1234]

I hope this comes about, it would be a great booster (sorry!) for our space industry.
But I wonder why a Canadian company would want to come to Scotland to launch satellites when there are existing facilities on their side of the pond.

[VP959]

Saxa Vord was the first ever place I went on detached duty. My lasting memory of the place is that it is as windy as hell. The wind never ever stops blowing there, it just varies a bit. The whole radar head got blown off the hill years before I went there, with the wind having reached a record speed before breaking the anemometer. Not sure it's exactly an ideal location for a launch facility, as apart from the near-constant high winds it's pretty far north, and I thought that one of the reasons for siting launch facilities near the equator was to reduce the amount of fuel needed to get into orbit.

[ORAC]

VP959, ideal for launching into polar orbit without overflying anyone else. It may be windy, but the weather/climate in equivalent northerly locations in continental America and Europe is far more inhospitable for much of the year due to the absence of the moderating influence of the Gulf Stream.

The NASA preferred polar launch site is Kodiak in Alaska which for much of the year is somewhat...... chilly.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/launchingrockets/sites.html

[Phantom Driver]

Big D--
Any chance we could launch Boris and his band of merry men into the outer space?

Almost as outrageous as Piers Morgan calling D Cummings a " rat faced weasel " on breakfast tv . :-)

ORAC--

The NASA preferred polar launch site is Kodiak in Alaska which for much of the year is somewhat...... chilly.

Any stats on just how many commercial launches NASA have conducted from said site ? Like Kwajalein Atoll , maybe more of a military emphasis .

Much as we would all love to see a British space launch programme up and running , I fear there is very little serious interest in the corridors of power at the moment , despite the best efforts of interested (professional ) parties . Alok Sharma teaming up with Mr Bharti does not fill one with confidence .

[Phantom Driver]

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/30/uks-rival-to-galileo-a-brexit-farce/

More perspectives on the Galileo saga . One has to think the government is juggling an awful lot of balls in the air right now as we head towards December 31st...

[Big_D]

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/30/uks-rival-to-galileo-a-brexit-farce/

More perspectives on the Galileo saga . One has to think the government is juggling an awful lot of balls in the air right now as we head towards December 31st...

This whole sorry saga about buying a bankrupt company without any economic assessments or public consultations reminds me of the last days of the USSR. Back then they were spending billions in the arms race at the same time as the population was facing mass poverty due to shock therapy of the economy.

[Sallyann1234]

In Brussels, the move was largely dismissed (https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-galileo-navigational-satellite-system-britain-eu-satellite-threat-falls-flat-with-brussels/) as “completely pointless” since everyone knew and experts agreed that it would be a highly irrational move from the UK to spend four or five times the money it had already invested for a worse system decades down the line. Everyone concurred that it was “just not a believable option”.
That sums up the project correctly. It is unnecessary and unaffordable.

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lift-off-for-shetland-as-island-wins-race-for-uk-spaceport-ptgbp596l

Lift-off for Shetland as island wins race for UK spaceport

A remote Scottish island has won the race to be the home of the UK’s first spaceport.

Unst, on the northern tip of Shetland, is now the top choice by the UK Space Agency (UKSA) and the US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin for a commercial rocket launch site. The first launch, carrying small satellites into low Earth orbit, is set to take place next year if planning permission is given. The move is seen a major advance for Britain’s ambitions to be a key player in the burgeoning space industry.

An announcement about Shetland is due to be made later this month by the official bodies involved in the multimillion-pound project, dashing the hopes of rivals across the country.

John Neilson, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin, which was awarded £23.5 million by the UKSA to identify and develop a vertical-launch site in Britain, said: “We are proud to be working in partnership with the UK Space Agency and partners, including both Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the Shetland Space Centre, to deliver a first vertical satellite launch from Scotland. Its mission will be to collect data from space that will help drive economic growth across the country.”

The news of Shetland’s success will come as a particularly heavy blow for those behind a rival £17.3 million scheme in the Highlands. It is only two months since Space Hub Sutherland received planning permission (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/remote-peninsula-in-scottish-highlands-to-lead-way-for-uk-to-enter-the-space-race-pcc688vxk) for their project.

It is understood Lockheed Martin will continue to work with the Sutherland site but is in the process of transferring the bulk of its business interests and grant funding to Shetland. Mr Neilson said: “With a project of this complexity, we continually review our plans to maximise the chance of mission success.”

It is understood the decision to focus on Shetland follows tests which showed that more than twice as many rockets, carrying a wider range of payloads, could be launched from Unst compared with Sutherland, which would be limited to 12 per year. Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin now sees the facilities as being complementary and suited for launches of different types for different clients.

A full planning application for the Shetland Space Centre is expected to go before the local authority within the next two months for three launch pads at Lamba Ness and Saxa Vord — one to be operated by Lockheed Martin and two smaller ones to be used by other interested companies. It is understood the local landowner and crofters have given the project their backing, as has the 600-strong island community.

Sutherland residents are divided over their spaceport plans and the threat to peatland and wildlife on the A’Mhoine peninsula (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/spaceport-would-threaten-rare-wildlife-rspb-warns-w3scnt9rt). Scotland’s largest private landowner, Anders Povlsen, whose Wildland Limited company has estates nearby, has threatened legal action (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/billionaire-anders-holch-povlsen-in-bid-to-abort-rocket-launch-site-79fjjp75c) if the project, by Highlands and Islands Enterprise, goes ahead.

[Mr Mac]

Orac
How is this system going to be better than that already provided ? We have no current launch vehicle so would be using surprise surprise, a Russian one in the first instance. Another BJ bridge, hopefully this one maybe a little too far for him and his career.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[ORAC]

How is this system going to be better than that already provided ? We have no current launch vehicle so would be using surprise surprise, a Russian one in the first instance
Do you have any idea how many competing launcher companies there currently are for cubesats? To mention just the obvious one, Spacex is launching over 100+ a month.

In the case of the above, LM has teamed with Orbex to provide the launchers. Though I would assume the government would go out to gender and, with their volume, SpaxeX would be hard to beat. I think the government is more interested in the satellite end of the business than the fireworks end....

https://orbex.space/

[Mr Mac]

Orac
I think the UK is a little late to the party for GPS systems as unless we can supply something radically different and most importantly useful and reliable I can not see why some one would change from current suppliers. I take the point about the firework end but again not cheap which ever way we go.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[Sallyann1234]

Since we have a proven UK capability in building satellites, and will shortly have a launch site in Scotland complete with launch vehicles, why did Boris/Cummings throw away £400m on buying useless second-hand satellites from a bankrupt company?

[PDR1]

Are modern launcher really that all-weather-capable? I quote from weatherspark:

"At Unst Island, the summers are short, cool, and windy; the winters are long, very cold, wet, and extremely windy; and it is mostly cloudy year round."

I appreciate the cloud cover probably isn't an issue for unmanned launches, but conditions ranging from windy to extremely windy present a bit of a challenge, don't they?

There is also the potential political obstacle that it would place space launches under the control of the Fish Woman whose life goal is to transform Scotchville into a hostile foreign power - why hand her more cudgels to beat us with?

PDR

[dead_pan]

Since we have a proven UK capability in building satellites, and will shortly have a launch site in Scotland complete with launch vehicles, why did Boris/Cummings throw away £400m on buying useless second-hand satellites from a bankrupt company?

Not only that, but we have to meet a very tight launch schedule otherwise we'll lose our frequency allocation. Oh, and we're currently reliant on Ariane for our launches (yup, that pan-European launch company), who are raising their prices. Oh, and we're also doing in all in partnership with the Indian businessmen Sunil Mittal. What's not to like?

Its blindingly obvious Cummings and Johnson rushed into this in a vain attempt to throw their supporters some red meat to keep them happy, given the wealth of bad news around.

[ORAC]

Sallyann1234,

I think the main driver is we get the orbits, frequencies and ground stations up front.

The 90 satellites are useful, the military always need bandwidth for voice and data and, if you remember, the US snapped up Iridium and never looked back.

For the future, cubesats are packing more and more in and a single satellite could serve multiple functions for commas, navigation, Elint etc.

Evrybody has an idea of a large satellite with large aerials - but to give an idea of how small - and I mean very small - a modern satellite transceiver can be, see here...

https://www.inverse.com/innovation/satellite-internet-transceiver

As for GPS, as long as you have a ground station you have triangulation.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/battlefield-tech/c2-comms/2019/11/29/can-hundreds-of-unrelated-satellites-create-a-gps-backup/

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/smallsat/2016/TS6NextOnPad/5/

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4075&context=smallsat

https://spacenews.com/first-hawkeye-360-satellites-pinpointing-signals/

https://www.seradata.com/hawkeye-360-orders-remaining-12-satellites-for-geolocation-constellation-from-utias/

https://www.sbir.gov/node/1620975

[Sallyann1234]

Slight difference. Iridium was and is a fully functioning network - a good investment.

The partial system that Boris bought into was failing because it required futher private investment wasn't available in the face of several competing systems. If the UK wants the system we will have to provide that extra investment.

Interesting that you mention the military. Did they ask the government to buy into this? Were they even consulted?

[ORAC]

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/oneweb-and-the-uk-a-wise-investment/

OneWeb and the UK - a wise investment?

Pat Norris FRIN FRAeS (member of the RAeS Space Specialist Group Committee) looks at the UK proposal to invest in the OneWeb satellite constellation to create a LEO satellite navigation system.

[LowNSlow]

Ah fond memories of Shetland weather and explaining to our contractor why their lifting plans for 500t modules really weren't going to work in the time frames they were planning.

Here's a quote from the Shetland website (https://www.shetland.org/60n/blogs/posts/the-weather-its-all-about-location):

Our average windspeed throughout the year is 16.7 mph and in January, the windiest month, it’s 20.8 mph. Even in summer, the average remains above 12 mph.

Unofficially, the RAF station at Saxa Vord in Unst holds the British wind speed record; a gust of 197 mph was recorded in 1992, after which the measuring equipment blew away. However, the maximum recorded at Lerwick is 109 mph, some way short of other places around Britain, for example, 115mph at the Isle of Wight, 124 mph in South Wales and 142 mph at Fraserburgh.


The anemometer also blew away in 1962: (https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/saxa-vord-rotor-radar-station/)

However, the radar station holds the unofficial British record for wind speed, which in 1962 was recorded at 177 mph; just before the measuring equipment blew away. This was clearly well in excess of the speeds which the aerials were designed to survive. It was decided in view of such weather conditions that a radome should be built over the aerial array and, with Saxa Vord providing cover of value to NATO, the latter organisation provided the radome, while the RAF, in the form of No. 91 Signals Unit, operated the radar from 1957 onwards.

[VP959]

Ah fond memories of Shetland weather and explaining to our contractor why their lifting plans for 500t modules really weren't going to work in the time frames they were planning.

Here's a quote from the Shetland website (https://www.shetland.org/60n/blogs/posts/the-weather-its-all-about-location):



The anemometer also blew away in 1962: (https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/saxa-vord-rotor-radar-station/)

Not just the anemometer. The whole Type 80 radar head got blown off the top of the hill at Saxa Vord once. When I worked there in January 1974 they had a radome to protect the two radar installations, but even then we had to use a crawl rope to get out of the door from the radome and across the hardstanding to the (securely tied down) Landrover to get back to the station.

[PDR1]

So an ideal spaceport location then. An assessor went there to see the proposed location and was completely blown away by it...

PDR

[VP959]

There's a reason that nothing much grows above ankle height on Unst - anything higher just gets blown away. During the time I was there I don't think the wind ever dropped much below about 30kts. Two of us tried to walk around Burra Firth and up to Hermaness, to get a view of the Muckle Flugga lighthouse, on the only relatively calm day off whilst we were there. We didn't make it, as we ended up knackered from trying to walk against the wind. Interesting anecdote; when my mother passed away a couple of years ago, we found the postcard I'd sent her whilst I was working up there. Has a neat post mark from the small post office in Haroldswick, hand franked with a stamp that reads "UK's most Northerly Post Office". There used to be an information board in the mess at Saxa Vord that had all the standard stuff about local amenities etc. Under "nearest railway station" it had Bergen, Norway listed.

[dead_pan]

So an ideal spaceport location then. An assessor went there to see the proposed location and was completely blown away by it...

PDR

At least they won't have any problems achieving the required down-range launch velocities.

Perhaps we could pioneer an innovative kite-based satellite launch system?

Semi-serious question: what's the transport infrastructure like there? Rail link?

[VP959]

Semi-serious question: what's the transport infrastructure like there? Rail link?

The Royal Engineers built a small air strip on Unst, that's still used by Loganair, I think. There aren't any railways on the Shetlands, AFAIK, just ferry links between the islands. There's an airport at Sumburgh, just about as far away from Unst as it's possible to get, at the Southern end of the mainland. Transport links to Lerwick were pretty good during the oil boom, so no real problem getting big and heavy stuff as far as there, although there may be challenges getting stuff from there up to the northern end of Unst.

[esa-aardvark]

Galileo - is an EU vanity project which will be overtaken by technology developments.

Shetland launch site - useful for polar orbits, there seems to be some demand.

[ORAC]

They aren’t talking giant rockets here, the size need to put a cubesat in polar orbit is quite small.

Dont confuse the OneWeb system with the LM Scottish spaceports, they’re not connected in any way.

https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2020/05/15/space-centre-could-result-in-bright-future-for-unst-team-behind-plans-say/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbex


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1129x804/image_f2bab4807922d106b632136c1f662a51b8a6abda.png

[Big_D]

Galileo - is an EU vanity project which will be overtaken by technology developments.

Shetland launch site - useful for polar orbits, there seems to be some demand.

Another very poorly argumented attemp to put a positive spin on this ****up.

[Sallyann1234]

All technology becomes outdated in time. If it didn't we would never advance.
Galileo is proving to be a very successful system that is central to many other EU projects. It has a great future.

[Big_D]

Would anyone know if those tiny oneweb satellites are capable of carrying atomic clocks needed for precision?

[Sallyann1234]

No they can't. They are not capable of being converted to a conventional GNSS system.
It is possible however that this system, if fully implemented, could be used to as an adjunct to an existing GNSS to provide additional accuracy. But it would need specialised receive equipment to do so, so incompatible with existing equipment.

[ORAC]

Would anyone know if those tiny oneweb satellites are capable of carrying atomic clocks needed for precision? Science moves on. Just as you now have chip scale gyros/INAS you also have Chip Scale Atomic Clocks (CSAC)....

https://www.microsemi.com/product-directory/clocks-frequency-references/3824-chip-scale-atomic-clock-csac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip-scale_atomic_clock

https://c5isr.ccdc.army.mil/news_and_media/When_GPS_goes_out_the_chip_scale_atomic_clock_may_be_coming_ to_the_rescue/

[Big_D]

No they can't. They are not capable of being converted to a conventional GNSS system.
It is possible however that this system, if fully implemented, could be used to as an adjunct to an existing GNSS to provide additional accuracy. But it would need specialised receive equipment to do so, so incompatible with existing equipment.

So basically, as suspected we bought the wrong satellites. How wonderful.

[ORAC]

It was never intended to replace a standard GPS system, and the value in the system wasn’t the current satellites, but as stated the orbits, frequencies, licences and ground network. The issue with Galileo was in the intention of the EU to withhold access to the precision location mode and the associated encryption.

As you will see from my last link in post #247 above, the aim is replace/supplement existing GPS, where the existing satellites and signal are increasingly vulnerable to jamming and physical attack.

Cube, nano and even Femto swarm satellites in LEO are seen as the emerging technology. The price, at the cost of 3-4 F-35Bs, might be seen as somewhat of a bargain in a few years time.

Certainly an expert in the field, see post #234, who briefed the HoC committee, is not so dismissive.