Immigration & forces brats born abroad

[melmothtw]

Speaking as a forces brat who was born abroad due to my father's posting some decades ago, I've been following the recent immigration omnishambles with an increasing sense of disquiet.

Though both my parents were/are British and though I have no connection with the country of my birth, beyond being born there, I hear the stories of those who have lived in this country for decades and who have had British passports, paid taxes to the UK government, and in at least one case served in the British Army, only to be told in the last few months that they are no longer considered to be British.

I don't want to turn this into a Brexit/not Brexit thing, but the government plays to the mood music and that that has been decidedly hostile to immigration of all forms over recent months and years, and my concern from all the cases that I am hearing is that just because you believe yourself to be British it is no guarantee that the authorities will see it that way (and it appears that having previously held a passport or paid taxes is no indicator as to what your status might really be).

I imagine there are a fair few PPRuNErs out there who were similarly born abroad to forces parents, and I was wondering if you are experiencing similar concerns. Indeed, have you run into any issues in terms of having to prove your 'Britishness' to officialdom? We are, after all, already classed as 'foreign' when it comes to the Census (there is no 'born aboard to forces parents' box to tick), and in the current climate it isn't such a big leap to see us having to prove our right to be here when the new post-Brexit rules and regulations come into being.

Also, if you have not experienced problems or have no concerns for yourselves, have you run into any issues when it comes to your kids not having a UK-born parent, and is that a concern?

Like I said, not looking for another Brexit dust-up here. Am genuinely interested to hear the thoughts who might be similarly concerned/affected.

Thanks

[ACW342]

My son was born in BMH Hong Kong when we were at Kai Tak. He has a Kowloon City registrars birth certificate (in English and Cantonese) and a British birth certificate issued by the appropriate military authority (I can't remember which). At census times we just ticked the box as being born in the UK, there being no other appropriate box. You also should have a British birth certificate issued by the appropriate military authority at wherever your parents were serving . My son is now a SNCO in the RAF and I don't think that the government would like him being deported and discussing his current service with representatives of the Peoples Liberation Army. I think that the Windrush thing is a bit of a red herring in this respect.

[Shackman]

Not a UK problem, but my son - born in TPMH Akrotiri (British Birth Certificate, passport etc) was refused entry in to the US - and forcibly deported - one of the reasons given was because his passport states he was born in Sovereign Base Area Cyprus. US Immigration did not understand.

[Crromwellman]

My two daughters were born at RAFH Wegberg near JHQ Rheindahlen. Although the service authority issued British birth certificates we were advised to have the births registered at the British Consulate. This was especially important in the case of a male child who, despite having a British birth certificate, could be liable for conscription in the German Armed Forces because they were born in Germany and this made them liable for this in German eyes. We registered the births at Dusseldorf and there have been no subsequent questioning of their nationality or British citizenship. So if the birth has been registered at the Consulate, Embassy or High Commission, there would not appear to be an issue. During the registration process my wife who was born in Guernsey during the German Occupation had her passport that had been issued in Guernsey endorsed that she was a British citizen with right of abode in the UK. Hope this clarifies matters and allays any fears.

[melmothtw]

I do have a British birth certificate, but as far as I know I only have one crinckled copy and the concern is what might happen if that were lost - are we (foreign born forces kids) in the wider system as we think/assume we are?

As to your son being an NCO, as I said there is at least one of the Windrush-related cases that served several years in the army. Seems that in itself is no protection.

The US immigration issue is true - I have always had to say where I was born and not where I was from. As both have been EU nations subject to the same rules it has never been an issue, but who knows if that will remain so.

While clearly nothing to do with Brexit and Windrush, this does lends itself to the wider point about confusion that officials can sometimes have in discerning the difference as to place of birth and nationality. Its the US today in this particualr instance, but why wouldnt it be the UK tomorrow?

[MPN11]

Place of Residence = Jersey.
Oh, we have relatives in Trenton.
<face-palm>

Born in UK, and having a Jersey passport which says I am a British Citizen is fine. Having “European Union” on the cover is false. So far it has never been an issue, but I have strong sympathy for those whose distinctions are less clear.

[goudie]

My middle and youngest daughters were born in Akrotiri and Kuala Lumpur respectively. The one born in Cyprus is now an American citizen. The youngest one has travelled the world. Neither have had any problems with border controls.

[melmothtw]

My middle and youngest daughters were born in Akrotiri and Kuala Lumpur respectively. The one born in Cyprus is now an American citizen. The youngest one has travelled the world. Neither have had any problems with border controls.

Yes, I've never had any problems to date either. Neither though did many of those cases we have been hearing about lately where people have lived perfectly normal lives for decades under the assumption that they are British only for the system to one day decide that they are not. That's the concern and the cause of my question.

[langleybaston]

Similar for children of Civilian Component: two born BMH Dhekelia, one born BMH Rinteln. All processed through the Consulate/ High Commission at the time, all have UK passports so fingers crossed no worries. We actually managed one in Yorkshire as well.
Rather a lot of service to UK PLC between them: RAFVR {Regiment], Police, NHS.

As an grumpy aside I am never entirely happy to be labelled "British" when I am most definitely English, with no trace of anything Scots Irish Welsh or even Cornish [and certainly no Johny Foreigner] going back to at least 1700. I also grump a bit at "Forename" but have accepted defeat on that one.

[ian16th]

Not a UK problem, but my son - born in TPMH Akrotiri (British Birth Certificate, passport etc) was refused entry in to the US - and forcibly deported - one of the reasons given was because his passport states he was born in Sovereign Base Area Cyprus. US Immigration did not understand.

I believe that in such cases, visa free entry, that is the norm for UK born British Citizens, is refused.
I know its a pain, but you son will have to get a visa if he wants entry into the USA.

[ian16th]

You also should have a British birth certificate issued by the appropriate military authority at wherever your parents were serving .

Not always possible.

1957-8 I served with the Royal Air Force Liaison Party at Istres and later Orange in France.
I was single at the time so not directly involved, but I know that when a wife gave birth, a dash was made to Marseille and the British Consul Generals office, to process the appropriate paper work. This had to be completed within 48 hours of the birth.
I dunno if these children have had any problems in later life.

[ORAC]

Back to the OP.

Brexit has nothing to do with it, in fact it membership of the EU - for two reasons.

Firstly, a lot of the present problems are caused due to the Immigration Act of 1971, which was done at the behest of the then members of the EU prior to U.K. entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_1971

Secondly, the pressure to reduce immigration in the last decade has been driven by the arrival of large numbers of EU citizens over which the Home Office has no control - so the resulting clamp down has been on those arriving from elsewhere.

As far as the status of forces children is concerned that has been an ongoing problem since the 1948 Immmingration Act, particularly those born in India. Spike Milligan, being an example. His parents were born in Ireland, then part of the UK, as it still was when he was born in India in 1918 when his father was in the army. When, after serving in the army in WWII he applied for a passport post 1948 he was told he was Indian and was refused. Thankfully the Irish offered him one immediately.

[Wensleydale]

Slightly different...

Back in the day, a crew's worth of Brits was trained on the NATO AWACS at Geilenkirchen in preparation for the UK Sentry arrival in service. The German national support unit agreed to look after the Brits because we didn't have a national support unit. The first two Brits arrived to be processed by the Germans. Place of birth: Kenya. A few raised eyebrows at that. Second chap place of birth: Basra, Iraq (father was a British Army doctor - more raised eyebrows). Third chap place of birth...Yorkshire (that's more like it). Date of birth: Christmas Day. Fourth chap: place of birth; Yorkshire. Date of birth: Christmas Day. For some reason, the Germans thought that we were testing their sense of humour, and yet it was all true.

As an afters, the Geilenkirchen procedure was that all newly arrived personnel had to take an English language test with the Americans and Canadians as the only ones exempt - the upshot was a strong suggestion that the Brits had to take the language test as we weren't exempt. (We refused by stating that it was a waste of time and won).

[Lascaille]

I believe that in such cases, visa free entry, that is the norm for UK born British Citizens, is refused.
I know its a pain, but you son will have to get a visa if he wants entry into the USA.

UK passport holder born overseas. Been to the US countless times, including one trip this year. Place of birth as printed on my passport is very obviously an Arab city. No issues, ever.​​​

[melmothtw]

Setting Brexit aside Orac, I was born in an EU country so my concern is that, while previously the crackdown has come on non-EU immigrants, at some point in the future you have to suppose that once the current furore has died down and been forgotten about, any future clampdown must be directed at EU immigrants if future targets are to be met.

Now, in the climate of that future (hypothetical) hostile environment, will the system recognise me as British or will it not? On current evidence, it is not entirely certain that it will.

Further to that, and more importantly, will it recognise that my child who has a British-born-overseas father and an EU mother is British?

[ORAC]

Melmothtw,

Assuming you are resident abroad - That depends on what your parents status was when you were born abroad. See sections 4 and 5 of the leaflet below.

If your are British otherwise than by descent you can pass on British nationality to your child; if British by descent you cannot.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461318/children_born_outside_the_uk_sept_2015.pdf

[Danny42C]

Was a chap having trouble getting a British Passport as he had been born in India of British parents, who had themselves been born in India of British parents (quite common in former days, as Britons served the Raj from generation to generation)

"So", they said, "you've never been abroad since you came home from India, then?" ... "Well", he said, "I did go to France once - but there was no Passport Control when I led my men ashore on Sword Beach".

Collapse of Stout Party! Hope he got his Passport !

[melmothtw]

Was a chap having trouble getting a British Passport as he had been born in India of British parents, who had themselves been born in India of British parents (quite common in former days, as Britons served the Raj from generation to generation)

"So", they said, "you've never been abroad since you came home from India, then?" ... "Well", he said, "I did go to France once - but there was no Passport Control when I led my men ashore on Sword Beach".

Collapse of Stout Party! Hope he got his Passport !

I'm not sure I can get away with that one Danny, though I will try ;-)

Orac, if I have read your post correctly it says that I cannot pass on British citizenship that has been passed down through my ancestors, but I can pass on citizenship that I may have gained through naturalization etc? That can't be right. Even if it is though, it appears that the rules today will change after Brexit (EU citizens are being told not to apply for leave to remain now as the process will shortly be very different).

I guess I will just have to wait and see, and keep my fingers crossed. And Windrush is on the news again. How did we get here?

[ORAC]

Melmothtw, as I say read the linked leaflet.

”(e) A “British citizen otherwise than by descent” is someone who can pass their citizenship onto a child born overseas. Generally speaking a British citizen otherwise than by descent is a British citizen who was born, adopted, naturalised or, in most cases, registered in the United Kingdom or a qualifying territory.

(f) A “British citizen by descent” cannot normally pass on citizenship to a child born overseas. A British citizen by descent could have become such a citizen in a number of ways – for example: by birth outside the United Kingdom to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent........

4. CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN OUTSIDE THE UNITED KINGDOM TO BRITISH CITIZENS BY DESCENT

A child born outside the United Kingdom will not be a British citizen if neither parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent. A parent who is a British citizen by descent cannot normally pass that status on. The exception to this is where the parent was in one of the 3 types of service listed in section 5 at the time of the birth.......

[melmothtw]

Yes, will look into it in more detail. Thanks for the link, Orac.

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, as Milligan, my mother. Though she had problems she did get a British passport.

No I recall in the 70s it was stated that the nationality of the child born to Service parents was the country where the father would be domiciled except for his Service in the military.

As I owned and occupied my own home in Scotland it meant one daughter was technically Scottish. Now suppose a Servicemen in Cyprus bought a house in country if could be argued that his sprogs were Cyp.

[Fareastdriver]

I would have thought that a British servicemen serving overseas would be regarded as being domiciled in the UK as he is still bring taxed by the UK.

When I worked overseas for extended periods I was 'not domiciled in the UK for tax purposes', or something like that.

[Lascaille]

4. CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN OUTSIDE THE UNITED KINGDOM TO BRITISH CITIZENS BY DESCENT
A child born outside the United Kingdom will not be a British citizen if neither parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent. A parent who is a British citizen by descent cannot normally pass that status on. The exception to this is where the parent was in one of the 3 types of service listed in section 5 at the time of the birth.......

ORAC are you deliberately trying to alarm people or something?

Those words are on the page, but right below them are a bunch more words saying that the children born abroad of such people (British Citzens by descent) may well be elegible to obtain citizenship simply by filling in a form and paying some fees.

There's a link and everything. Why are you omitting that from your quotes?

Copy/pasted directly from your PDF in full:
-----
4. CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN OUTSIDE THE UNITED KINGDOM TO BRITISH CITIZENS BY DESCENT
A child born outside the United Kingdom will not be a British citizen if neither parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent. A parent who is a British citizen by descent cannot normally pass that status on. The exception to this is where the parent was in one of the 3 types of service listed in section 5 at the time of the birth.

A child who is not a British citizen may be entitled to be registered as a British citizen.

Further information can be found on the Gov.Uk website:

https://www.gov.uk/register-british-citizen/children-born-outside-uk
-----

Not entirely sure why you stopped your quoting quite where you did!

[DON T]

Strangely enough I have not worried about this until now. Both my daughters were born at RAFH Wegberg in 1981 and 1982 and both births were registered at the British Consolate in person by myself. Both children have British passports.

My youngest daughter now 35 has recently applied for an Open University course grant and because she was born in Germany has been asked to provide proof of where she has resided since she was born. Today I have typed out all the married quarter addresses where we lived and it took more than one page but most of them were in Germany.

What is is going on, the people in power seem not to understand the system. Maybe they don’t realise we used to have the Royal Air Force that actually served in overseas postings.

[ian16th]

UK passport holder born overseas. Been to the US countless times, including one trip this year. Place of birth as printed on my passport is very obviously an Arab city. No issues, ever.​​​

Maybe you should PM Shackman and tell his son which ports of entry to use.

I have heard of other instances of children that were born in TPMH Akrotiri, besides Shackman's son being refused entry into the USA.

[ian16th]

What is is going on, the people in power seem not to understand the system.


Does this surprise you?

[melmothtw]

DON T - that is precisely my point. I have never paid this a second thought before - I never felt I had to.
Things feel different now.

[ORAC]

Lascaille, follow the link, the additional exemptions are very, very narrow.

I didn’t include it because, in the case in question, the only pertinent exemption is if the child was born out of wedlock. To wit.....

”Born before 1 July 2006 to a British father

You can register as a British citizen if you:

were born before 1 July 2006
would have become a British citizen automatically if your parents had been married
are of ‘good character’ - see the guidance to form UKF (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-as-a-british-citizen-form-ukf) for details......

[Lascaille]

Lascaille, follow the link, the additional exemptions are very, very narrow.

I didn’t include it because, in the case in question, the only pertinent exemption is if the child was born out of wedlock. To wit.....

”Born before 1 July 2006 to a British father

You can register as a British citizen if you:

were born before 1 July 2006
would have become a British citizen automatically if your parents had been married
are of ‘good character’ - see the guidance to form UKF (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-as-a-british-citizen-form-ukf) for details......



I think you misunderstand the situation.

Follow the link to the form MN1 guide, there are substantially more exemptions than that. As a person born outside the UK (and currently outside of the UK) I have looked into this.

​​​​​Basically, if you have lived in the UK for 3 years _ever_ in your life before having a child born abroad, and are a 'British citizen by descent' your child is elegible to receive british citizenship by registration unless your parents were also British citizens by descent.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-child-under-18-as-british-citizen-form-mn1

The following words copied from Page 10 of the MN-1 form PDF:
-----

To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died, then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their death).

The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age.

-----

[Hydromet]

In Australia, we have some former politicians who, I expect, are somewhat expert now on the subject of passing on British citizenship, having recently been forced to resign from Parliament because of British (and other) citizenship that they were unaware they had.

[212man]

I believe that in such cases, visa free entry, that is the norm for UK born British Citizens, is refused.
I know its a pain, but you son will have to get a visa if he wants entry into the USA.

My passports have always said 'RAF Akrotiri' and I have never had issues in entering the US

[musttriharder]

I was born in 1971 @ RAFH Wegberg. I once had an issue getting a passport in the mid 80's as my birth certificate is a photocopy of the consulate record, albeit franked and signed in ink. The person issuing my passport at the time was rather officious and wouldn't accept it as it 'was a copy'. Issue was resolved by his manager. Other than that, I've had no issues renewing passports / other documentation or entering EU / US.

In answer to the OP's question, I'm not concerned at the moment...:)

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I do have a British birth certificate, but as far as I know I only have one crinckled copy and the concern is what might happen if that were lost - are we (foreign born forces kids) in the wider system as we think/assume we are?



My suggestion, given you have some concern over what would happen if your Birth Certificate was lost, would be to apply for a duplicate one now. Cost is around £50 or so.

If your place of birth is going to cause a problem it is probably best to find out now.
Gov. Site for Birth Certificate (https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate#more-information)

[ian16th]

My passports have always said 'RAF Akrotiri' and I have never had issues in entering the US

This is apparently not consistent. RAF Akrotiri is probably the best option, as the average immigration official probably doesn't know where it is.

I have heard of one case where it was incorrectly stated Republic of Cyprus!

[Onceapilot]

I am sure this topic has been around the loop before? Anyhow, for UK Service personnel in RAFG, it was not automatic that your children born there were full UK citizens, unless you, the parents, correctly registered them at the Consulate and paid the registration fee. I seem to remember that there was a time limit on this process? Can anyone say if they have successfully been able to retrospectively modify their status (on this basis) recently as an adult?

OAP

[Fareastdriver]

My daughter was born in Singapore. She has a British birth certificate, etc. and has no problem travelling around the world including the USA. When she was about 22 she found out that she could have applied for a Singaporean passport up to the age of 18 and possibly would have dual nationality.. This, at the time, would have made her job infinitely more rewarding.

[Null Orifice]

My daughter was born in Singapore. She has a British birth certificate, etc. and has no problem travelling around the world including the USA. When she was about 22 she found out that she could have applied for a Singaporean passport up to the age of 18 and possibly would have dual nationality.. This, at the time, would have made her job infinitely more rewarding.

My daughter was born in Singapore (RAF Hospital Changi) in 1971. Registered her birth in hospital and subsequently received a laminated Singapore birth certificate. I was advised to register her birth with British High Commission in downtown Singapore where I received a British birth cetificate. She has a British passport, been to the USA several times both for work and leisure purposes. Never had a problem entering the USA thus far. On the other hand, a visit to Singapore COULD have been problematic (when she was younger) due to her potentially being conscripted for service with the Singapore Armed Forces, although I have never heard of such action being taken.

[Saintsman]

No1 son was born at TPMH Akrotiri and has travelled to the USA without problem.

Akrotiri is slightly unusual though, because although it's on the Island of Cyprus, he wasn't actually born in Cyprus, but on the Sovereign Base Area, which is British territory, unlike (I believe) those born in Germany etc.

I'll have to ask him what his status in on his passport.

[roving]

The status of those born at Queen Mary's Hospital RAF Akrotiri, is discussed here.

Surprising that The Home Office / Foreign Office cannot offer definitive advice.

Births at RAF Akrotiri: is the Place-of-Birth "U.K." or "Cyprus"? - British Expats (http://britishexpats.com/forum/immigration-citizenship-canada-33/births-raf-akrotiri-place-birth-u-k-cyprus-800752/)

[teeteringhead]

My suggestion, given you have some concern over what would happen if your Birth Certificate was lost, would be to apply for a duplicate one now. Cost is around £50 or so. Oooh - don't scare them off SWB. I get quite a few for family history research - £9.25 each including postage!

[Heathrow Harry]

"Surprising that The Home Office / Foreign Office cannot offer definitive advice.2

:p;):p:p


The two most totally dysfunctional arms of ANY Government - are you kidding...........................

[ORAC]

Not surprising at all - since it is tied up in the case of the refugees trapped in Dhekalia since 2000. If children born there are declared to be British then they, and their parents will, presumably, be able to move to the UK. Their status remains tied up in the Courts.

I dont think it is their case particularly, but the possible mass arrival others by land from northern Cyprus or sea from Syria iif the SBAs were allowed to become a shortcut to the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/refugee-families-marooned-raf-base-cyprus

[RedhillPhil]

Hmmm. My younger sister was born in Nicosia in 1954. She's coming for a visit in a few weeks time. I'll ask her what her passport position is.

[Ogre]

I had a friend who gave birth to her son while in Cyprus with her husband. Her story was that whilst in labour the ambulance had to rush her to the hospital from her MQ because if the son had been born closer to the MQ site the son would be classed as Turkish and eligible for Turkish military service.

As for my memsahib, she was born one of the Naval hospitals in Malta while her dad was posted out there. Listing her place of birth has caused questions over the years, so when it came to renew passports she applied for a replacement birth certificate in case her original got lost in the post.. The UK side of things had real problems finding the details, several emails were sent in both directions and eventually they found the right book and the right page and managed to issue a replacement.

The Maltese office returned the correct document within two weeks.

[Fareastdriver]

The Maltese office returned the correct document within two weeks.

A slight difference in the numbers born.

[ShyTorque]

Our first born was delivered in BMH Rinteln, Germany. Had he been born closer to home in the local civilian hospital he would have been obliged to carry out German National Service.

Our last born was born in a civilian hospital in China. That caused a few eyebrows to be raised when said offspring applied to join the RAF Reserve; it was resolved after quite some delay.

[Wander00]

Has anyone fed any of this into the wider Windrush enquiry?

[Avtur]

As for my memsahib, she was born one of the Naval hospitals in Malta while her dad was posted out there. Listing her place of birth has caused questions over the years,

I was also born in a RN hospital there, but have had no issues with Malta appearing on my British Passport. That said, I did recently have a US Immigration Officer ask why I was born in Malta. He looked puzzled when I told him that's where my mum was when I came out, but was quite happy when I explained that my father was in the military and based there.

[ShyTorque]

He looked puzzled when I told him that's where my mum was when I came out,

But where were you and how did your Mum react to the news?

[It's Not Working]

This 'eligible for national service' crops up repeatedly when discussing children born overseas. It was a hot topic when I served in Portugal but has it actually happened to anybody who didn’t make the overnight dash to the nearest British Consulate or is it simply a folk story that’s grown with the years?

[Fareastdriver]

It was a hot topic when I served in Portugal

Maybe some of their neighbours would think it is a good idea.

[Crromwellman]

INW
Its not an urban myth. One of my neighbour's sons in Germany got his German call-up papers and there was a lot of to-ing and fro-ing to sort it out involving the Service authorities, the JSLO and the Consulate/Embassy before it was all sorted out

[Haraka]

Had a mate in School 6th form in 1960's ,a boarder of British parents, who got his French call-up papers. (Any way to get out of A-levels I suppose).No, he didn't go

[ian16th]

Wasn't Lawrence Dallaglio in danger of being called up in Italy when England went to play in Rome?

[It's Not Working]

Thanks for the replies. Fortunately it’s not something I have to concern myself with now but certainly food for thought for those that still serve.

[ORAC]

Haraka,

IIRC, several years ago, there was a Anglo-French lad working for Eurostar in their UK yard (which the French immigration ran with the transposed border) who was arrested and taken over to Paris for failing to turn up for his national service. He was released after the FO got involved, but it took a few days.

[Fitter2]

I guess the recent past immigration concerns have caused significant tightening up.

My wife was born in 1950 in Sri Lanka, of ex-military father who chose to be demobbed and continued to work out there; both he and his wife were born in India, although all 4 grandparents were born in Ireland near Cork. Her birth certificate was needed some years later after they returned to UK, and a duplicate supplied by their Embassy, in very colourful Sinhalese with several official stamps (but no English translation.)

Fast forward to 1979, when my job took me to South Africa for a one week trip which turned into nearly 3 months. The company offered for her to join me for the rest of my trip, which left her with the problem of getting a passport (previously we had only visited Europe using the Post Office counter pink travel cards, cheaper and simpler). Advised by a friend to apply at the Petty France Passport office ("they will see you are white") she arrived there with application form, photographs and 5 year old son in tow, and was interviewed. Officer went over available papers, and then asked if she had her parents marriage certificate. When she explained that during a heated argument with her father her mother had thrown it in the fire, poor chap visibly wilted, replied 'I suppose I can assume as they had 9 children, then they were married' and asked her to wait outside. 30 minutes later she was summoned and handed a shiny new passport, which has been renewed without question several times since, and used to travel extensively, including USA.

I don't know what would happen if she tried that today.

[hunterboy]

I had a mate who ended up doing his year in the “mili “ in Spain despite not having been there for 17 years and not speaking a word of Spanish. I reckon it would have been worth a year of my time to see how it would have turned out .

[racedo]

Cousin with extensive RAF service in Germany filling in family tree indicated that one of his offspring had been born in DDR, he had a senior moment and assured me was correct.
Clearly bothered him and got a call 2 hours later where he suddenly realised and had spent his time checking.
Offspring continually reminded him that he had no idea where he was born.

[Just This Once...]

INW
Its not an urban myth. One of my neighbour's sons in Germany got his German call-up papers and there was a lot of to-ing and fro-ing to sort it out involving the Service authorities, the JSLO and the Consulate/Embassy before it was all sorted out

Seems odd for Germany. Like many service families abroad the status of dependants in Germany is not covered by EU, German or UK immigration and nationalisation laws, but under the Status of Forces Agreement and the various Supplements. For example:

Article 15

1. The obligation under German law to report births and deaths to a German registrar shall not apply either with respect to a child born to, or with respect to the death of, a member of a force or of a civilian component or a dependent; where, however, such birth or death is reported to a German registrar, registration shall take place in accordance with the provisions of German law.

2. The obligation to report births and deaths remains unaffected in cases where the child is, or the deceased was, a German.

In the specific case of German military call-up:

Article 7

In applying international agreements or other provisions in force in the Federal territory concerning residence (Aufenthalt) and settlement (Niederlassung), insofar as they relate to repatriation, to expulsion, to the extension of residence permits or to gainful occupation, periods of time spent in the Federal territory by any person as a member of a force or of a civilian component or as a dependent shall be disregarded.

Re Article 7

In the application of the German regulations on compulsory military service, periods of time spent in the Federal territory as a member of a force, of a civilian component or as a dependent shall be disregarded.

Almost all service brats born outside of the UK will come under a Status of Forces Agreement or some kind or another. For those rare cases where no relevant SOFA was in place the presumption is with the general provisions. The rules, laws and process for this stuff is nailed-down and always works in our favour. This of course has nothing to do with the high regard in which we are held but everything to do with the fact that much of the system is mirrored from the diplomatic world - they are the true masters of looking after themselves.

[sky9]

I think you misunderstand the situation.

Follow the link to the form MN1 guide, there are substantially more exemptions than that. As a person born outside the UK (and currently outside of the UK) I have looked into this.

​​​​​Basically, if you have lived in the UK for 3 years _ever_ in your life before having a child born abroad, and are a 'British citizen by descent' your child is elegible to receive british citizenship by registration unless your parents were also British citizens by descent.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-child-under-18-as-british-citizen-form-mn1



The following words copied from Page 10 of the MN-1 form PDF:
-----

To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died, then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their death).

The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age.

-----

You are absolutely correct, the citizenship is given under Section 3.2 of the 1981 British Nationality Act.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/3

I worked in Bahrain in the early 1970's and had a son born and registered with the British Embassy there. We returned to the UK and he then went abroad again after about 4 years. Although we didn't know it at the time he was registered as British by Descent even though he was born before the 1981 Act.
We have just managed to get citizenship for his children under that Act however in spite of help from my MP the Home Office failed to point it out. They are a shambles and that is what the problem is with Windrush.

[bspatz]

My birth certificate was issued by HQ 205 group MEAF showing my birth at the RAF Hospital married families wing Abyad and signed by a squadron leader with the informant given as a Wing Commander from RAF Shallufa. I suspect there are not too many around and have often said that it might eventually be of interest to the RAF museum! However I have never encountered any problems with immigration.

[oldboffin]

I had problems getting my first passport and security clearance. The problem was not that I was a service brat born at Wegberg, but my father was also a service brat being born in India . I recall that was some sort of loophole in a new nationality act. If I recall correctly, the upshot was a waiver was issued by the Home Office for such cases as mine. I believe that a retired colonel demanded that the act be changed rather than the waiver, fighting his case mainly in the letters column of the telegraph

[Mil-26Man]

Here’s a forces brat nationality question that comes a bit out of left-field: Can a British Forces brat born overseas qualify for an Irish passport?

Here’s my thinking – if you are born on a British overseas base you are issued with a UK birth certificate, and so you are officially from the UK.

UK = being either English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish, but in being born outside of the UK you will have none of those nations listed on your birth certificate.

Now, that being so and given that you have to be from one of the four constituent countries by definition of being ‘British’, can you elect which part of the UK you wish to be from?

If so, could you elect to be from Northern Ireland and so qualify for an Irish passport?

Asking for a friend…

[ExAscoteer]

Pontius, that's not strictly true.

Prior to the Good Friday Agreement, the Constitution of Eire (the 26 Counties) claimed dominion over the 6 Countie of Northern Ireland. That meant, those of us born in NI were offered dual citizenship should we wish to take it up.

I hold both UK and Irish passports.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1417008626540105729?s=21

[Asturias56]

"Prior to the Good Friday Agreement, the Constitution of Eire (the 26 Counties) claimed dominion over the 6 Counties of Northern Ireland. That meant, those of us born in NI were offered dual citizenship should we wish to take it up."

The GFA didn't change anything - anyone who has a grandparent born in either the Republic or N Ireland can still apply for a Republic birth certificate and once you have that an Irish Passport.

the paperwork is pretty heavy as you have to get copies of births deaths and marriages certificates to prove line of descent. Pre Covid it took about 6-8 months to get the Birth Cert and then about 3 months to get the passport.

Everything was b put on hold 15 months ago so there is an enormous backlog waiting when they do restart

So if you are thinking of it start right now. A colleague of mine always said you can't have too many passports in these troubled times.

Note I don't think that this allows you to pass on citizenship or get a passport of the Republic for your children or spouse if they themselves have no connection to the Republic or NI

[Ninthace]

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1417008626540105729?s=21

If borne out by the facts - someone else should be losing their job too!