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Interceptheading
1st May 2018, 00:06
Interesting read in the Age this morning regarding planned industrial action at Tiger.

Anyone know what action will be taken; red ties, PAs, extra gas?

Well done AFAP ( and the other mob...)

IH

Roj approved
1st May 2018, 00:24
No MEL’s, no change to rostered duty/sectors and maybe something else., can’t remember what to dude said

Flava Saver
1st May 2018, 01:32
It’s quite easy to do PIA that doesn’t disrupt the pax significantly that can be union sanctioned.

* No de rated take off’s
* Fully configured by 3000’
* No track shortening
* Sign on right at sign on, not 5 or 10 mins early, go grab that coffee if the bus arrived early

I’m sure there’s plenty of other ideas.

wheels_down
1st May 2018, 02:05
Where’s Merren?

Oriana
1st May 2018, 11:38
Here ya go boys, throw these on as well.

https://tcprd-tdcdn.netdna-ssl.com/orange-microfiber-tiger-animal-print-tie-231570-540-800-0.jpg



This method really works:hmm:!

SilverSleuth
2nd May 2018, 05:19
What exactly are the differences of tiger 737 compared to Virgin 737? Or even Jetstar conditions? Serious question.
I only ask because they are the low cost operator to Virgin, like Jetstar to qantas. If Jetstar just said they wanted the same as QF mainline no one would blink.
I actually thought tiger had some better conditions than Jetstar? I honestly don’t know though.

drpixie
2nd May 2018, 11:50
Anyone know what action will be taken; red ties, PAs, extra gas?

How about changing the callsign to Whiskas.
They had GoCat and I suspect the old management just thought it was energetic and powerful, didn't get the joke.

jetlikespeeds
3rd May 2018, 23:16
In principle agreement reached with the union, although why anyone would accept the first offer in this day and age is beyond me. You owe it to yourself and the colleagues around you to go for as much as possible which certainly isn’t done by voting the first offer up.

ad-astra
4th May 2018, 01:01
PIA may be a useful Industrial tool but it works BOTH ways.
The provisions of PIA can also be used by the company against its employees. My opinion is that it should be avoided at all costs.
"Going for as much as possible" has it's own pitfalls as many can attest. From 1989 to 2018 I can provide many an example.
If the Union is happy then surely they have the support of the members and both sides can get on with life.
Good work to the pilots who stood firm.

gordonfvckingramsay
4th May 2018, 01:50
There is a problem with that though ad-astra and that is a) most airlines I know of practice a form of IA every day, with impunity. And b) PIA is the ONLY language airlines understand. Without PIA, They only stonewall us.

They could lift their game if they wanted and PIA would be used mush less frequently.

ad-astra
4th May 2018, 03:36
Yep agree Gordon.
he interesting thing is that the THREAT of PIA is usually all that is needed to bring a recalcitrant employer to the table.
The threat of tumbling bookings and empty aeroplanes speaks loudest.

Alas the THREAT has to be genuine, which is the hard bit.

gordonfvckingramsay
4th May 2018, 03:47
Alas the THREAT has to be genuine, which is the hard bit.

Completely agree! That distinction is in the hands of the airline and pilots should not feel sorry for that.

The Banjo
4th May 2018, 03:52
How about changing the callsign to Whiskas.
They had GoCat and I suspect the old management just thought it was energetic and powerful, didn't get the joke.
Whiskas? What has crew meals got to do with this?

The Green Goblin
4th May 2018, 04:22
https://www.amazon.co.uk/PURINA%C2%AE-GO-CAT%C2%AE-CRUNCHY-Chicken-Vegetables/dp/B00AJQ7O72

jetlikespeeds
4th May 2018, 05:09
If the Union is happy then surely they have the support of the members and both sides can get on with life.
Good work to the pilots who stood firm.

Ask the Cobham pilots that.

metrodashbrazconkie
6th May 2018, 01:13
You said it Jetlike! The AFAP drove the first offer at Cobham like AFAP themselves had something to gain. The AFAP even claimed that ALL the reps were onboard when they weren’t. Individualistic goals and misinformation from within my union came as a complete surprise to me, very disappointed. Never vote based on advice from your union, always read the fine print and make your own choice.

joblogs
6th May 2018, 23:49
No pilots have voted anything in. The company obviously started to negotiate properly so no Pia. Now they go to the table again to finish the draft. Very strange with pilots leaving every week these companies choose to play hard ball.

Chocks Away
7th May 2018, 07:09
Very strange with pilots leaving every week these companies choose to play hard ball.
Exactly! These goons are just some of the muppets that created this shortage crisis so they're sure as hell not the ones to get Airlines out of it!
"No Soup for you!" :} (nor any bonuses either, for that matter!)

Popgun
3rd Dec 2018, 13:12
Any news on where the Tiger pilot group is with the bargaining process?

Has another draft document been agreed yet?

PG

WillieTheWimp
3rd Dec 2018, 22:39
No counter proposal as yet and I believe PIA is to be voted on very soon after an appetite for it was surveyed recently.

ContactMeNow
4th Dec 2018, 01:55
Where’s Merren?

Studying for her VA command position :hmm:

machtuk
4th Dec 2018, 05:02
Tigers have a very fractured pilot group, the Airline know this, they rely on it to keep that unrest within the pilot group, keeps the confusion on the boil stalling for time. The last PIA was aborted at the last minute due some cunning tactics from the upper management, the drivers bought it hook line & sinker!
They have had more CP's, CEO's T&Cers & managers of all descriptions than most have had hot meals, the most dysfunctional Airline in Australia!

davidclarke
4th Dec 2018, 09:02
Tigers have a very fractured pilot group, the Airline know this, they rely on it to keep that unrest within the pilot group, keeps the confusion on the boil stalling for time. The last PIA was aborted at the last minute due some cunning tactics from the upper management, the drivers bought it hook line & sinker!
They have had more CP's, CEO's T&Cers & managers of all descriptions than most have had hot meals, the most dysfunctional Airline in Australia!

I don’t think PIA can be averted this time. The pilot group is fed up. The offer from the company would need to be amazing to avert it. I has been approved by fair work already. Just a matter of time.

davidclarke
13th Dec 2018, 08:10
PIA approved. Commences 21st December.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tigerair-pilots-threaten-pre-christmas-go-slow-20181213-p50m32.html

chickoroll
13th Dec 2018, 09:29
as long as their air go slows don’t delay me, good luck to them.

Chocks Away
3rd Jan 2019, 08:22
Work to Rule - (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/tigerair-pilots-launch-industrial-action/)Good luck.
Very sadly, an all too familiar issue in Australia with Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew, thanks to the inept mangerial style still in vogue. :ugh:

machtuk
3rd Jan 2019, 10:14
Work to Rule - (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/tigerair-pilots-launch-industrial-action/)Good luck.
Very sadly, an all too familiar issue in Australia with Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew, thanks to the inept mangerial style still in vogue. :ugh:


this is good to see, the Tiger management have been cunning and useless to say the least! In the past the management have relied on the pilot group being fractured, they are now becoming as one.
Stand United guys/gals show the mongrels that it's no more Mr nice guy & getting abused!

Blitzkrieger
3rd Jan 2019, 12:25
Cobham pilots made a quant leap in their EB recently. If the Cobham pilots can stick together anyone can, good luck!

The Shovel
3rd Jan 2019, 14:04
It’s quite easy to do PIA that doesn’t disrupt the pax significantly that can be union sanctioned.

* No de rated take off’s
* Fully configured by 3000’
* No track shortening
* Sign on right at sign on, not 5 or 10 mins early, go grab that coffee if the bus arrived early

I’m sure there’s plenty of other ideas.

No intersection departures,
Full Rev THR on landing,
No Single Engine Taxi,
Only report Mandatory Reportable Items (regulator hates that one).

You will never win the support of the travelling public, NEVER. Since we were labelled Glrofied Bus Drivers back in the 80’s, that is all the public think and will think.

Work to rule, cancelling flights will only drive your pay checks onto another airline. You need to look at it from a Business perspective (the airline does), how much is a Day Off worth to the company?
“ I will work my day off sure. I want double day off payment, overtime flying rate and the day off added to my annual Leave for this year. If not, find someone else to operate.”
Why shoot ourselves in the first foot? The purpose is to get our worth remunerated by the company, remunerate us. There will be a break even point where the company says it is not financially viable, that should be the target.

When will unions evolve and stop playing the Companies game?

4 Holer
3rd Jan 2019, 15:24
Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.

bouncebabybounce
3rd Jan 2019, 23:18
Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.
You seem to have an affixiation with Walmart 4 Holer, maybe it's you that's working there. Tell me, how are the terms and conditions there?

Scooter Rassmussin
3rd Jan 2019, 23:24
Go hard boys plenty of other jobs around these days ,
easy for F/Os as no loss of rank .

wheels_down
4th Jan 2019, 00:09
For all we know there could be a complete new Management lineup at VA and TT in 12 months.

We we don’t know how much Dunkerley will gut the joint. But I’d be hedging bets on a complete overhaul.

Farewell MM

machtuk
4th Jan 2019, 00:31
For all we know there could be a complete new Management lineup at VA and TT in 12 months.

We we don’t know how much Dunkerley will gut the joint. But I’d be hedging bets on a complete overhaul.

Farewell MM

There's always a complete new management line up ever 12 mths, so to speak, that's half the problem. New numbnuts come in trying to reinvent the wheel, find it's impossible then move on leaving a new mess behind. Tigers have had more managers at all levels than most have had hot meals, that kinda says it all!

Gnadenburg
4th Jan 2019, 00:32
Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.

That's a little abusive? And Walmart?

bouncebabybounce
4th Jan 2019, 00:54
There's always a complete new management line up ever 12 mths, so to speak, that's half the problem. New numbnuts come in trying to reinvent the wheel, find it's impossible then move on leaving a new mess behind. Tigers have had more managers at all levels than most have had hot meals, that kinda says it all!
11 Ceo's in 11 years, why not hit 12 in 12. They come in, line their pockets and leave with no actual regard for the operation. While front line staff try to keep the train on the tracks, with no thanks let alone renumeration. Nothing will change until there is an overhaul at VA.

Popgun
4th Jan 2019, 02:34
What’s the major sticking point/s?

Is it money, conditions or both?

I see the draft agreement that was rejected had monthly Captain base salary of $209K for 60 block hours. Was that part of the agreement palatable to most? Or is a higher $ number being fought for?

Hoping for solidarity and a fairer, improved offer for you guys/gals.

PG

The Bullwinkle
4th Jan 2019, 03:37
I’m very surprised that Tiger pilots are taking PIA, especially as “Merren McArthur is a popular leader.” :yuk:

wheels_down
4th Jan 2019, 05:38
Check out her LinkedIn Page. Get the vomit bag out before you read it.

73qanda
4th Jan 2019, 07:19
Does anybody on this thread recall what their base salary was as a narrow body Captain twenty or thirty years ago? ( I’m too young and good looking to know). I am just interested to see what the ratio is now between median salary and $209k, and then see what the ratio was back then.

Berealgetreal
4th Jan 2019, 09:19
Great news about Walmart opening up in Australia.

73qanda from memory a mate of mine from Ansett on the 73 as an FO was on about 140k mid to late 90s.

stormfury
4th Jan 2019, 17:21
Check out her LinkedIn Page. Get the vomit bag out before you read it.

If she was as good a leader and communicator as her LinkedIn page indicates I’d suggest Tiger wouldn’t be in the situation it currently is. That said, no different to QANTAS SOs detailing their ‘strategic decision-making’ responsibilities.

galdian
4th Jan 2019, 20:39
In fairness she's constrained by orders from above/situations she's placed into from those upon high and can only act as a mere functionary.

Now IF she was a leader she'd go to the heads and say "now take back your 73's, give us back 4 AIrbus, when you have a timetable for a professionally co-ordinated rollover give us a call otherwise leave us alone to operate fairly productively in our part of the market. Now piss off until you've got your sh*t together".

Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

stormfury
4th Jan 2019, 21:37
Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

Couldn’t agree more, particularly in the aviation industry.

t_cas
4th Jan 2019, 22:50
Couldn’t agree more, particularly in the aviation industry.

If leadership was absent in the aviation industry here in Aus, there would be smoking holes everywhere. Leadership is not restricted to the realm of corporate rank and file,,,,,,,

pilots literally and figuratively lead every time they strap in if not before.

machtuk
5th Jan 2019, 00:17
In fairness she's constrained by orders from above/situations she's placed into from those upon high and can only act as a mere functionary.

Now IF she was a leader she'd go to the heads and say "now take back your 73's, give us back 4 AIrbus, when you have a timetable for a professionally co-ordinated rollover give us a call otherwise leave us alone to operate fairly productively in our part of the market. Now piss off until you've got your sh*t together".

Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

Well said there, spot on!:-)
That's pretty much what should happen but it wont:-( When the idiots higher up at the time (a few years ago now) told the training dept that they had 18 months to train the guys up on 73's (bonding all pilots 3 years & $40K initially) as the buses where going to be sent back, from that day on TT has been a clusterf*ck of the highest magnitude & will continue to do so for the foreseeable future ! At the time this monumental idiotic idea was floated the buses where making money for TT but somehow the boffins at Virgins knew better !!! Also at the time they asked for expression of interest for the initial batch of guys to swap over, it was dismal the initial response, the management stood there shocked, they where clueless (and still are!)!

Still the whole shooting match is an entertaining show if nothing else !

gordonfvckingramsay
5th Jan 2019, 00:38
You will be crying if they close up.


I am curious about that notion 4 holer. I’ve heard that exact thing being used during EBA negotiations for years but it’s never happened. Pay and conditions are lower than they were even a decade ago and the only ones to prosper are board members.

You’re obviously an educated and well connected person.

Can you list all the airlines that have had to close down purely because pilots have pushed to either increase or even retain current conditions?

porch monkey
5th Jan 2019, 04:08
Please don't encourage him Gordon.......:mad:

wheels_down
5th Jan 2019, 04:47
Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.

stormfury
5th Jan 2019, 05:07
If leadership was absent in the aviation industry here in Aus, there would be smoking holes everywhere. Leadership is not restricted to the realm of corporate rank and file,,,,,,,

pilots literally and figuratively lead every time they strap in if not before.
Point taken, you are correct; I should have been more specific.

machtuk
5th Jan 2019, 07:55
Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.


Singapore will never close it??? Please explain that one!

rodney rude
5th Jan 2019, 23:34
Mach - I'm not a spelling or grammar nazi by any means, but a supposedly educated pilot who does not know the difference between "were" and "where" really has me questioning your schooling.

gordonfvckingramsay
6th Jan 2019, 00:48
Please don't encourage him Gordon.......https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif


Oh I’d love to encourage him, I’m intrigued to know where all these failed airlines are. The truth is it’s never happened but people insist on retransmitting this garbage.

Popgun
6th Jan 2019, 04:39
But what are you specifically fighting for?

Anyone able to disclose the specific remuneration and conditions that the union/s is/are seeking?

PG

ebt
7th Jan 2019, 01:47
Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.


Well, Tiger's closed down the Phlippines and Indonesia operations a few years ago and the Tiger brand at home has Scooted off. So there's not sentimentality in the SQ Group around the Tiger brand.

VA needs Tiger in its stable but has no bloody idea on how to use it to best effect. Which, going by VA's recent performance, is ops normal.

PoppaJo
7th Jan 2019, 03:15
Well, Tiger's closed down the Phlippines and Indonesia operations a few years ago and the Tiger brand at home has Scooted off. So there's not sentimentality in the SQ Group around the Tiger brand.
Its more about saving face. There is a certain level of humiliation that our Singaporean neighbours wouldn’t want to endure in conceding defeat to Qantas and Co.

It’s a long story with a complicated history. You then have the Ryanair mob who had a large interest in the Aussie operation and kept toying with it. Singapore was just along for the ride back in 07, it was Declan Ryan and Tony that wanted the operation here. Then Singapore were left to pick up the pieces.

There was three carnations of Tiger. Mark 1 was the RyanAir show with Tony and co. Then you’ve got round 2 with Andrew and Singapore. Now it’s round 3 with the Virginisation of Tiger.

Sadly Mark 1 was probably more successful than today’s Tiger.

machtuk
7th Jan 2019, 06:15
Mach - I'm not a spelling or grammar nazi by any means, but a supposedly educated pilot who does not know the difference between "were" and "where" really has me questioning your schooling.

…...............thats it? thats what you can take away from my post? thats a pritty sad life you leed their rr:-(

rodney rude
9th Jan 2019, 09:13
Pretty, not pretty. Lead, not Leed. Moron. And my life is as happy and fulfilled as possible!!!

Square Bear
9th Jan 2019, 11:49
FFS, the thread is about TIGER INDUSTRIAL ACTION, not about who can spell.

PLEASE, back on thread, some of are interested in the subject matter.

Popgun
9th Jan 2019, 23:00
FFS, the thread is about TIGER INDUSTRIAL ACTION, not about who can spell.

PLEASE, back on thread, some of are interested in the subject matter.

Exactly.

For those of us not in the know...what are the specifics of the sticking points? What are the main bullet points you are trying to achieve in the new contract?

Transparency of remuneration and contract conditions is a good thing for all pilots in the industry.

PG

abaderrr
21st Jan 2019, 06:23
So the stop work is confirmed for this Friday morning?

Flava Saver
21st Jan 2019, 06:44
From nine.com.au



Pilots at Tigerair have announced they will take industrial action at airports across Australia to dispute a current pay agreement.

The strike will take place over a four-hour period between (5am-9am) on Friday, and involve pilots with membership to the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

“The decision to engage in a work stoppage was not made lightly,” Senior Industrial Officer James Lauchland said in an official statement this afternoon.

“Tigerair pilots fly the same aircraft as their counterparts at Jetstar, Virgin and Qantas but this is not reflected in their employment conditions.

“The current agreement is well below industry standards, both in terms of pay and conditions. Tigerair pilots are simply looking for a fair deal.

“Tigerair insists on finding savings in return for our claims for industry standard pay and conditions.”

About 75 per cent of Tigerair pilots are members of the AFAP.

PoppaJo
21st Jan 2019, 11:52
Alliance to the rescue again I assume. Alliance laughing, Virgin bleeding.

gordonfvckingramsay
21st Jan 2019, 20:12
Alliance to the rescue again I assume. Alliance laughing, Virgin bleeding

Do Alliance have the capacity to cover enough of Tiger's flying to soften the impact?

Aren't Virgin one of the players in this country responsible for the bad blood between pilots and their employers?

Airlines are victims of their own cleverness :rolleyes:

And to think that there are still people here who believe the airlines hold all the cards, I think not.

SHVC
21st Jan 2019, 20:30
Do Alliance have the capacity to cover enough of Tiger's flying to soften the impact?

Aren't Virgin one of the players in this country responsible for the bad blood between pilots and their employers?

Airlines are victims of their own cleverness :rolleyes:

And to think that there are still people here who believe the airlines hold all the cards, I think not.

Cleverness??? VA is far from that!

Buster Hyman
22nd Jan 2019, 08:18
Two F100's parked down at MJB.

The Bullwinkle
23rd Jan 2019, 04:44
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/warnings/tigerair-pilot-strike-set-to-disrupt-australia-day-weekend-travel-plans/news-story/7606edada7d0580cf8250d9b4a62fa9e

I’m sure Merren’s got it all under control. :}

Colonel_Klink
23rd Jan 2019, 23:44
Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

PoppaJo
24th Jan 2019, 02:38
Mabye Merren should pick up and phone and give Tony Davis a call. Ask him what happened when he screwed around with his Tiger Singapore Pilots pay back in 2010. Half the captains walked, 40% of flights cancelled and had to pay skippers 300 grand to stay on. Screwed the company for years to come and he got the boot. Mabye she wants the boot too?

Pastor of Muppets
24th Jan 2019, 09:17
So if all the VA group pilots were combined into one “pilot list” for “better bargaining muscle” why are the Tiger Crews doing this alone?

hawk_eye
24th Jan 2019, 20:28
So if all the VA group pilots were combined into one “pilot list” for “better bargaining muscle” why are the Tiger Crews doing this alone?

Because any other VA Group pilot taking any form of action (Secondary Boycott) could find themselves in a bit of strife for taking Unprotected (illegal) Industrial Action.

Guys and girls I speak to on the line are certainly supportive of TT pilots in what they are trying to achieve - they just can’t take any action, thanks to the Fair Work Act.

The Bullwinkle
24th Jan 2019, 23:11
Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

Are you “Hearing” those rumours or “Starting” those rumours?
On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO. Not a word from the Feds.
And not to detract from the importance of fighting for the Tiger guys and girls but surely this is a much bigger issue to fight for, and yet there’s not a single word coming from the AFAP voicing their members concerns.
Although of course, that could just be a rumour!

wheels_down
24th Jan 2019, 23:28
On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO.
Because the Chairman removed him as she didn’t like him/never agreed with him/didn’t get along with him. She ain’t gonna re hire the fella she got rid off!

I just wouldn’t even bother wasting the time fighting it. You would need to remove the chairman for that to gain legs.

The Bullwinkle
24th Jan 2019, 23:45
Because the Chairman removed him as she didn’t like him/never agreed with him/didn’t get along with him. She ain’t gonna re hire the fella she got rid off!

I just wouldn’t even bother wasting the time fighting it. You would need to remove the chairman for that to gain legs.

And yet he’d be the safest choice for the Chairman as he’d be the only prospective CEO who’s legally obligated not to divulge what a mess the current CEO has made.

WillieTheWimp
25th Jan 2019, 00:18
So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.

davidclarke
25th Jan 2019, 00:19
Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

Indeed there are a few pilots working on their days off (obviously entitled to but results in very short term gain) but you could literally count those with one hand. I think out of 200 or so Pilot’s that shows pretty good solidarity!

The Bullwinkle
25th Jan 2019, 00:59
So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.

No. Only one union does.
The other union says nothing.

Rated De
25th Jan 2019, 01:17
So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.



In many countries, unions and their members are recognised as key stakeholders in the management and corporate oversight of corporations. The Germans call it 'Codetermination'.
That unions are considered the enemy, serves management and their binary view of the world well.
It makes common sense for employees, particularly those with long term employment as a goal to be included in the decision making matrix.

Berealgetreal
25th Jan 2019, 02:09
As if the board are going to listen to a Union when choosing a CEO. If anything that would probably tell them who they won’t want to employ given all they want is economic rationalism.

SilverSleuth
25th Jan 2019, 02:32
As previously pointed out by others, the company board are NEVER going to appoint a CEO that the unions say. In particular it’s laughable even more to suggest they will appoint one that the same board approved to be fired.

As for the VA pilots supporting the tiger pilots, I think you will find they absolutely do and hope they can get all they can. From an industrial point of view they are a seperate company and covered under a seperate EBA, therefore under the FWA they are not allowed at all to participate.

Both unions (VIPA and AFAP) have to also apply separately for any industrial action. They can’t automatically just do something together. In fact the company can argue for joint action to be rejected and I believe that is infact their tactic here.

Colonel_Klink
25th Jan 2019, 02:47
Are you “Hearing” those rumours or “Starting” those rumours?
On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO. Not a word from the Feds.
And not to detract from the importance of fighting for the Tiger guys and girls but surely this is a much bigger issue to fight for, and yet there’s not a single word coming from the AFAP voicing their members concerns.
Although of course, that could just be a rumour!

VIPA members choose to "keep talking"
VIPA president John Lyons told Workplace Express today that his members do not want to take protected action at this stage because the airline has "moved considerably" and they hope to complete negotiations soon, without the need for it.
"We fully endorse the action of the AFAP but our members have indicated that they would prefer to keep talking at the moment," Lyons said.

Well it seems to me that the rumours were in fact true. Perhaps you would like to explain Bullwinkle why you think it’s acceptable for VIPA to ride on the coat tails of the AFAP. Why weren’t VIPA continuing to apply industrial pressure on the company by conducting PIA? What do VIPA members think of their Union’s behaviour whilst AFAP members have done a remarkably good job in sticking together during this Industrial Action.

Perhaps it is time VIPA stop with the chest thumping and talks of working with the AFAP when all they do is undermine the AFAP in a shallow attempt to attract new members.

And finally, the old JT chestnut - an organisation would have to be so industrially naive and over think their own self sense of importance if they honestly think that they have any sway on convincing a board to appoint a CEO whom they sacked 6 months ago as COO. So maybe it’s just simply that the AFAP aren’t stupid.

wheels_down
26th Jan 2019, 04:44
Are Virgin 737 Pilots permitted to operate Tiger 737 flights? (On Tiger metal)

porch monkey
26th Jan 2019, 08:19
Let me answer that in a round about way. VA will be doing line training for TT F/O’s on the 737. They are required to be inducted into VA, EP’s etc, sim, and then they can line train. On the same A/C, same routes, etc, etc. Does that answer your question?

wheels_down
26th Jan 2019, 11:00
Let me answer that in a round about way. VA will be doing line training for TT F/O’s on the 737. They are required to be inducted into VA, EP’s etc, sim, and then they can line train. On the same A/C, same routes, etc, etc. Does that answer your question?
I was thinking more along the lines of these ‘contingency’ plans involving borrowing VA pilots to avoid cancellations and get the operation up and running to schedule.

They are sitting below 60% ontime performance and double digit cancellations. This has been going on well before any industrial action was ramped up.

The board needs m to be questioned on its logic in planning to operate a entire fleet 15-20 year old 737s to schedule on 30 min turns from 6am-12am.

Blue Ruin
26th Jan 2019, 15:19
Are Virgin 737 Pilots permitted to operate Tiger 737 flights? (On Tiger metal)


No they're not. Even if they could Virgin are stretched on the 737 operating their own routes and don't have crew sitting idly.

machtuk
26th Jan 2019, 21:17
I was thinking more along the lines of these ‘contingency’ plans involving borrowing VA pilots to avoid cancellations and get the operation up and running to schedule.

They are sitting below 60% ontime performance and double digit cancellations. This has been going on well before any industrial action was ramped up.

The board needs m to be questioned on its logic in planning to operate a entire fleet 15-20 year old 737s to schedule on 30 min turns from 6am-12am.



Several years ago when the A320's where finally making money the management at the time walked into the training office and said we are switching to an all B737 fleet and we plan to have everyone swapped over in 18 months, from that day onwards Tigers has been a clusterTruck!!
The 30 min turnaround is doable but you have to have everything going for you from good efficient ground support, a strong reliable fleet and a happy crew, all of those 3 requirements are often strained!

Keith Myath
27th Jan 2019, 07:29
VIPA president John Lyons told Workplace Express today that his members do not want to take protected action at this stage because the airline has "moved considerably" and they hope to complete negotiations soon, without the need for it.
"We fully endorse the action of the AFAP but our members have indicated that they would prefer to keep talking at the moment," Lyons said.


Stupid and weak, you ‘fully endorse the action of the AFAP’ but your own actions directly betray and undermine the AFAP’s chances of getting a better deal for all tiger pilots. VIPA - Virgin Independent Pissweak Association.

GWhizz
27th Jan 2019, 08:25
It’s a known thing that a company will avail its self of a gentle response from unions by stringing them along with a “genuine” desire to negotiate. Months or even years later, nothing has been achieved.....these are called delaying tactics. By the time this “genuine” desire to negotiate has been dragged out for a sufficiently long period, the pilots are well and truly suffering negotiation fatigue and the unions are starting to look at the cost of maintaining the fight.....they both fold.

When a union knows this is going to be the case but still allows the company to run them around till they tire, it suggests one of a few possibilities: 1. The union is incompetent, 2. They trust the company in question, 3) They have been offered an inducement.

VIPA speaking this way concerns me, and I doubt the AFAP are any different.

The Bullwinkle
27th Jan 2019, 09:25
Stupid and weak, you ‘fully endorse the action of the AFAP’ but your own actions directly betray and undermine the AFAP’s chances of getting a better deal for all tiger pilots. VIPA - Virgin Independent Pissweak Association.

If you’d seen the pile of dog turd EBA that the AFAP recommended back in 2006, you’d understand why VIPA came into existence.
The Feds were so, as you put it, Pissweak, that pilots left the AFAP and VIPA was formed.
If the AFAP had represented their members properly in the first place, VIPA wouldn’t even be here!

dirty deeds
27th Jan 2019, 23:30
If you’d seen the pile of dog turd EBA that the AFAP recommended back in 2006, you’d understand why VIPA came into existence.
The Feds were so, as you put it, Pissweak, that pilots left the AFAP and VIPA was formed.
If the AFAP had represented their members properly in the first place, VIPA wouldn’t even be here!



Dog Turd...…….do you mean the "2007" agreement?

1. You mean the Dog Turd that gives you 11/12Days off in a 28 day roster.
2. You mean the Dog Turd that has enshrined your Work Rules into the EBA, which mean CASA's absurd CAO 48.1 proposal and the insane work rules these contain won't affect you (are VIPA getting their members to conduct the CASA survey into 48.1 like the AFAP have done with all their members, or just giving out Jurlique creams?),
3. You mean the Dog Turd that is the foundation of what you have today and the Dog Turd that was discussed by APIA to QF Management (they'd love our work rules and Day Off protections instead of being on the Standard Industry Exemption (SIE)...…….do you know what that SIE "Dog Turd" looks like Bullwinkle?).

Its ok Bullwinkle, I know VIPA promised the world and delivered an Atlas...……..yet we all understand this will be the AFAP's fault to.

The Bullwinkle
28th Jan 2019, 01:32
​​​​Dog Turd...…….do you mean the "2007" agreement?

No. I mean the 2006 EBA document that received an 89% No Vote.

GWhizz
28th Jan 2019, 01:37
No. I mean the 2006 EBA document that received an 89% No Vote.

Endorsed as “the best you’ll get”?

dirty deeds
28th Jan 2019, 03:46
I don’t want to further digress from the thread, suffice to say that there were some good things in that 2006 agreement (one that springs to mind was a solid roster balancing provision that was removed post No Vote, would have fixed the unbalanced rostering that occurs today) that went begging for not much change to the one that got voted up..........remind you of the NO Vote campaign in 2011 where nothing materially changed (if anything the consultation provisions were watered down) and we lost the backpay, and the compounded interest on those lost increases.........hey, let’s not let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Bullwinkle........maybe time to get involved instead of throwing rocks? You might then see that not is all what it seems.

All the best to the AFAP members at TT conducting PIA.

Berealgetreal
28th Jan 2019, 04:59
320s making a profit would have nothing to do with routes been gifted by mainline wouldn’t it?
Heavy lifting in the group is done by.. VAA 737.

Would like to see the TT guys on the same conditions as VAA but suggestions that TT/XR etc were going great until Virgin turned up is fantasyland.

Trevor the lover
28th Jan 2019, 07:11
1. You mean the Dog Turd that gives you 11/12Days off in a 28 day roster.


Waaaaaah - 0nly 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster???!!! Trying getting sympathy from office workers, nurses, coppers, shop workers and everyone else who only get 2 days off per week, AND who aren't earning 200 grand a year. Dog turd my arse. Spoilt brats.

I'd duck due to the incoming now, but having been an airline pilot and lost 2 jobs, and then struggling to get a job for 40 grand a year, I know just how good I had it.

Trevor the lover
28th Jan 2019, 07:13
The Dog Turd that only gives you 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster.

Waaaaaah - 0nly 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster???!!! Trying getting sympathy from office workers, nurses, coppers, shop workers and everyone else who only get 2 days off per week, AND who aren't earning 200 grand a year. Dog turd my arse. Spoilt brats. What you do isn't that special.

I'd duck due to the incoming now, but having been an airline pilot and lost 2 jobs, and then struggling to get a job for 40 grand a year, I know just how good I had it.[/QUOTE]

porch monkey
28th Jan 2019, 21:46
Great rant Trev, but doesn't address the point. TT don't get 11/12. They would like to have it. I say good luck in their efforts. BTW, you're right, coppers don't get 11/12, but the 9 weeks annual leave a year they do get sure goes a long way to making up for it. I'm sorry you're in the position you seem to be, I wish you the best, but keep it relevant. It's an ambit claim. Like all the rest. I wish them luck..............

Trevor the lover
28th Jan 2019, 22:39
Sorry Porchy - was just directly quoting the guy who said "dog turd EBA that only gives 11 or 12 days off a month."
I take your point regarding coppers - that just leaves nurses, office workers etc etc

WillieTheWimp
29th Jan 2019, 05:02
Sorry Porchy - was just directly quoting the guy who said "dog turd EBA that only gives 11 or 12 days off a month."
I take your point regarding coppers - that just leaves nurses, office workers etc etc

Dirty deeds post is tongue-in-cheek. Not sure how you could miss that. Anyways, how stupid to compare an office worker, coppers, nurses or whatever else you could think of to airline pilot T&C’s. Completely irrelevant and sounds like sour grapes. It would be nice if everyone could earn 250k a year however it doesn’t work like that.

Trevor the lover
29th Jan 2019, 05:31
Willie

Woops, my bad. I did misread and and missed the tongue in cheek.

Ref office workers vs pilots. Many many office workers did finance degrees, law degrees, or any other 5 year degree which could compare to pilot training. Sure, I'd love everyone to do well. Just saying that $200k plus and 12 days off a month is a pretty good deal.

Rated De
29th Jan 2019, 06:51
Ref office workers vs pilots. Many many office workers did finance degrees, law degrees, or any other 5 year degree which could compare to pilot training. Sure, I'd love everyone to do well. Just saying that $200k plus and 12 days off a month is a pretty good deal.

Careful with the generalisation there Trevor.
Most undergraduate degrees, are three years.
In the Australian context, the graduate will, according to your ATO in 5% of cases accumulate a debt of AUD$50,000.00

Given the cost of a candidate funded course with government assistance is circa $149,000, the 'graduate cadet' is indentured given lack of command hours, seat changes and upgrades are completely at the whim of the employer.
A more traditional route in Australia, via the local flying school sees the pilot expend a similar amount over perhaps a three or four year period, before finally going on to acquire the hours requisite for an application to a major.
The opportunity cost is considerable and the qualification a pilot has is not readily transferable, nor are there numerous airlines.

The industry has eaten its young. That there is dwindling supply is a combination of demographic and opportunity cost meaning not only are retirement rates increasing, there are less willing to join an industry where the pay off 'possibility' is low.

Icarus2001
29th Jan 2019, 09:47
In the Australian context, the graduate will, according to your ATO in 5% of cases accumulate a debt of AUD$50,000.00

What happens in the other 95% of cases?

Any office worker who gets invited to a wedding on a Saturday next June knows they can go, pilots are controlled by the roster. There is a BIG slab of money right there. Six monthly sim check, medical, missing significant birthdays of family and friends and on it goes... Pilots get paid the MINIMUM that the company has to pay to fill the seat.

Best wishes to the Tiger guys and girls.

Arthur D
29th Jan 2019, 12:14
The industry has eaten its young. That there is dwindling supply is a combination of demographic and opportunity cost meaning not only are retirement rates increasing, there are less willing to join an industry where the pay off 'possibility' is low.

Not to mention the fact that the future prospects for Airline pilots look far from certain. Many young people are questioning how long it will be before the F/O at least goes the way of the Flight Engineer, Nav, Radio operator etc. thereby causing a massive surplus of pilots.

Within the next decade it looks increasingly likely we will see autonomous Taxi’s and potentially Air taxi’s. Once people can trust their car’s and Air taxi’s to drive themselves, how long before the ‘Airbus’ goes the same way.

Ironically, the present shortage of pilots could not have come at a worse time from this perspective. A.I. wont need simulators, allowances, rest etc. Airlines, Regulators and public acceptance may be driven by NEED.

Good luck to the TT pilots.

Personally, I would like to know what VIPA, AFAP, AIPA and even IFALPA are doing to address the looming threat to ALL professional pilots..........

VHFRT
30th Jan 2019, 15:17
I do think we as pilots are falling into the trap management sets and feeling we get paid too much.

My partner is a state employed nurse. Straight into a government job after 3 years of uni. By the time weekends and night shifts are factors in, they make as much as I do as a 73 FO.

Ontop of this, working sundays helps rack up the annual leave and they’re pulling in about 8 weeks a year. And, after each shift, they go home. Next week I’ll leave home on Monday at 6am and get back Thursday at midnight. Then do it all over again 2 days later.

Maybe we should aim to bring ourselves up, rather than talk ourselves down?

machtuk
31st Jan 2019, 06:42
I do think we as pilots are falling into the trap management sets and feeling we get paid too much.

My partner is a state employed nurse. Straight into a government job after 3 years of uni. By the time weekends and night shifts are factors in, they make as much as I do as a 73 FO.

Ontop of this, working sundays helps rack up the annual leave and they’re pulling in about 8 weeks a year. And, after each shift, they go home. Next week I’ll leave home on Monday at 6am and get back Thursday at midnight. Then do it all over again 2 days later.

Maybe we should aim to bring ourselves up, rather than talk ourselves down?

That you are welcome 2. Several nights away at a time is NOT a decent lifestyle, at least Tigers don't do that, but that is the only bonus, the rest is a joke!

George Glass
31st Jan 2019, 07:31
Here's an idea for all those pleading social equity in pay. If you dont like it, get out. I have a 3 Year Bachelor Degree and had a comfortable office job. I loathed it. I busted my a#rse and became a Pilot. No risk , no gain. I get pretty tired of hearing Public Servants bitching about their miserable lives. Go for it Tiger guys and gals. You're never going to get support from the general public anyway , so don't worry about it.

Shot Nancy
31st Jan 2019, 08:09
The glass is half full.

The Bullwinkle
31st Jan 2019, 23:03
If you dont like it, get out.

Many are in fact getting out.
And very few are coming in.
No longer viewed as a decent career by anybody.

rep
13th Feb 2019, 08:07
Whats the latest with the industrial action?

knobbycobby
13th Feb 2019, 09:49
Good luck to all at Tiger.
You have to fight to improve terms and conditions. It’s a worthy fight. Agree with others sentiments of talking up the profession. It’s a tough job with a huge entry cost. Early starts, late shifts, holidays And Christmas lost to work.
If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything.

Best Wishes.