Tiger Industrial Action

[Interceptheading]

Interesting read in the Age this morning regarding planned industrial action at Tiger.

Anyone know what action will be taken; red ties, PAs, extra gas?

Well done AFAP ( and the other mob...)

IH

[Roj approved]

No MEL’s, no change to rostered duty/sectors and maybe something else., can’t remember what to dude said

[Flava Saver]

It’s quite easy to do PIA that doesn’t disrupt the pax significantly that can be union sanctioned.

* No de rated take off’s
* Fully configured by 3000’
* No track shortening
* Sign on right at sign on, not 5 or 10 mins early, go grab that coffee if the bus arrived early

I’m sure there’s plenty of other ideas.

[wheels_down]

Where’s Merren?

[Oriana]

Here ya go boys, throw these on as well.

https://tcprd-tdcdn.netdna-ssl.com/orange-microfiber-tiger-animal-print-tie-231570-540-800-0.jpg



This method really works:hmm:!

[SilverSleuth]

What exactly are the differences of tiger 737 compared to Virgin 737? Or even Jetstar conditions? Serious question.
I only ask because they are the low cost operator to Virgin, like Jetstar to qantas. If Jetstar just said they wanted the same as QF mainline no one would blink.
I actually thought tiger had some better conditions than Jetstar? I honestly don’t know though.

[drpixie]

Anyone know what action will be taken; red ties, PAs, extra gas?

How about changing the callsign to Whiskas.
They had GoCat and I suspect the old management just thought it was energetic and powerful, didn't get the joke.

[jetlikespeeds]

In principle agreement reached with the union, although why anyone would accept the first offer in this day and age is beyond me. You owe it to yourself and the colleagues around you to go for as much as possible which certainly isn’t done by voting the first offer up.

[ad-astra]

PIA may be a useful Industrial tool but it works BOTH ways.
The provisions of PIA can also be used by the company against its employees. My opinion is that it should be avoided at all costs.
"Going for as much as possible" has it's own pitfalls as many can attest. From 1989 to 2018 I can provide many an example.
If the Union is happy then surely they have the support of the members and both sides can get on with life.
Good work to the pilots who stood firm.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

There is a problem with that though ad-astra and that is a) most airlines I know of practice a form of IA every day, with impunity. And b) PIA is the ONLY language airlines understand. Without PIA, They only stonewall us.

They could lift their game if they wanted and PIA would be used mush less frequently.

[ad-astra]

Yep agree Gordon.
he interesting thing is that the THREAT of PIA is usually all that is needed to bring a recalcitrant employer to the table.
The threat of tumbling bookings and empty aeroplanes speaks loudest.

Alas the THREAT has to be genuine, which is the hard bit.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Alas the THREAT has to be genuine, which is the hard bit.

Completely agree! That distinction is in the hands of the airline and pilots should not feel sorry for that.

[The Banjo]

How about changing the callsign to Whiskas.
They had GoCat and I suspect the old management just thought it was energetic and powerful, didn't get the joke.
Whiskas? What has crew meals got to do with this?

[The Green Goblin]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PURINA%C2%AE-GO-CAT%C2%AE-CRUNCHY-Chicken-Vegetables/dp/B00AJQ7O72

[jetlikespeeds]

If the Union is happy then surely they have the support of the members and both sides can get on with life.
Good work to the pilots who stood firm.

Ask the Cobham pilots that.

[metrodashbrazconkie]

You said it Jetlike! The AFAP drove the first offer at Cobham like AFAP themselves had something to gain. The AFAP even claimed that ALL the reps were onboard when they weren’t. Individualistic goals and misinformation from within my union came as a complete surprise to me, very disappointed. Never vote based on advice from your union, always read the fine print and make your own choice.

[joblogs]

No pilots have voted anything in. The company obviously started to negotiate properly so no Pia. Now they go to the table again to finish the draft. Very strange with pilots leaving every week these companies choose to play hard ball.

[Chocks Away]

Very strange with pilots leaving every week these companies choose to play hard ball.
Exactly! These goons are just some of the muppets that created this shortage crisis so they're sure as hell not the ones to get Airlines out of it!
"No Soup for you!" :} (nor any bonuses either, for that matter!)

[Popgun]

Any news on where the Tiger pilot group is with the bargaining process?

Has another draft document been agreed yet?

PG

[ContactMeNow]

Where’s Merren?

Studying for her VA command position :hmm:

[machtuk]

Tigers have a very fractured pilot group, the Airline know this, they rely on it to keep that unrest within the pilot group, keeps the confusion on the boil stalling for time. The last PIA was aborted at the last minute due some cunning tactics from the upper management, the drivers bought it hook line & sinker!
They have had more CP's, CEO's T&Cers & managers of all descriptions than most have had hot meals, the most dysfunctional Airline in Australia!

[davidclarke]

Tigers have a very fractured pilot group, the Airline know this, they rely on it to keep that unrest within the pilot group, keeps the confusion on the boil stalling for time. The last PIA was aborted at the last minute due some cunning tactics from the upper management, the drivers bought it hook line & sinker!
They have had more CP's, CEO's T&Cers & managers of all descriptions than most have had hot meals, the most dysfunctional Airline in Australia!

I don’t think PIA can be averted this time. The pilot group is fed up. The offer from the company would need to be amazing to avert it. I has been approved by fair work already. Just a matter of time.

[davidclarke]

PIA approved. Commences 21st December.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tigerair-pilots-threaten-pre-christmas-go-slow-20181213-p50m32.html

[chickoroll]

as long as their air go slows don’t delay me, good luck to them.

[Chocks Away]

Work to Rule - (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/tigerair-pilots-launch-industrial-action/)Good luck.
Very sadly, an all too familiar issue in Australia with Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew, thanks to the inept mangerial style still in vogue. :ugh:

[machtuk]

Work to Rule - (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/tigerair-pilots-launch-industrial-action/)Good luck.
Very sadly, an all too familiar issue in Australia with Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew, thanks to the inept mangerial style still in vogue. :ugh:


this is good to see, the Tiger management have been cunning and useless to say the least! In the past the management have relied on the pilot group being fractured, they are now becoming as one.
Stand United guys/gals show the mongrels that it's no more Mr nice guy & getting abused!

[Blitzkrieger]

Cobham pilots made a quant leap in their EB recently. If the Cobham pilots can stick together anyone can, good luck!

[The Shovel]

It’s quite easy to do PIA that doesn’t disrupt the pax significantly that can be union sanctioned.

* No de rated take off’s
* Fully configured by 3000’
* No track shortening
* Sign on right at sign on, not 5 or 10 mins early, go grab that coffee if the bus arrived early

I’m sure there’s plenty of other ideas.

No intersection departures,
Full Rev THR on landing,
No Single Engine Taxi,
Only report Mandatory Reportable Items (regulator hates that one).

You will never win the support of the travelling public, NEVER. Since we were labelled Glrofied Bus Drivers back in the 80’s, that is all the public think and will think.

Work to rule, cancelling flights will only drive your pay checks onto another airline. You need to look at it from a Business perspective (the airline does), how much is a Day Off worth to the company?
“ I will work my day off sure. I want double day off payment, overtime flying rate and the day off added to my annual Leave for this year. If not, find someone else to operate.”
Why shoot ourselves in the first foot? The purpose is to get our worth remunerated by the company, remunerate us. There will be a break even point where the company says it is not financially viable, that should be the target.

When will unions evolve and stop playing the Companies game?

[4 Holer]

Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.

[bouncebabybounce]

Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.
You seem to have an affixiation with Walmart 4 Holer, maybe it's you that's working there. Tell me, how are the terms and conditions there?

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Go hard boys plenty of other jobs around these days ,
easy for F/Os as no loss of rank .

[wheels_down]

For all we know there could be a complete new Management lineup at VA and TT in 12 months.

We we don’t know how much Dunkerley will gut the joint. But I’d be hedging bets on a complete overhaul.

Farewell MM

[machtuk]

For all we know there could be a complete new Management lineup at VA and TT in 12 months.

We we don’t know how much Dunkerley will gut the joint. But I’d be hedging bets on a complete overhaul.

Farewell MM

There's always a complete new management line up ever 12 mths, so to speak, that's half the problem. New numbnuts come in trying to reinvent the wheel, find it's impossible then move on leaving a new mess behind. Tigers have had more managers at all levels than most have had hot meals, that kinda says it all!

[Gnadenburg]

Entitled morons, go get a job at Walmart... You will be crying if they close up.

That's a little abusive? And Walmart?

[bouncebabybounce]

There's always a complete new management line up ever 12 mths, so to speak, that's half the problem. New numbnuts come in trying to reinvent the wheel, find it's impossible then move on leaving a new mess behind. Tigers have had more managers at all levels than most have had hot meals, that kinda says it all!
11 Ceo's in 11 years, why not hit 12 in 12. They come in, line their pockets and leave with no actual regard for the operation. While front line staff try to keep the train on the tracks, with no thanks let alone renumeration. Nothing will change until there is an overhaul at VA.

[Popgun]

What’s the major sticking point/s?

Is it money, conditions or both?

I see the draft agreement that was rejected had monthly Captain base salary of $209K for 60 block hours. Was that part of the agreement palatable to most? Or is a higher $ number being fought for?

Hoping for solidarity and a fairer, improved offer for you guys/gals.

PG

[The Bullwinkle]

I’m very surprised that Tiger pilots are taking PIA, especially as “Merren McArthur is a popular leader.” :yuk:

[wheels_down]

Check out her LinkedIn Page. Get the vomit bag out before you read it.

[73qanda]

Does anybody on this thread recall what their base salary was as a narrow body Captain twenty or thirty years ago? ( I’m too young and good looking to know). I am just interested to see what the ratio is now between median salary and $209k, and then see what the ratio was back then.

[Berealgetreal]

Great news about Walmart opening up in Australia.

73qanda from memory a mate of mine from Ansett on the 73 as an FO was on about 140k mid to late 90s.

[stormfury]

Check out her LinkedIn Page. Get the vomit bag out before you read it.

If she was as good a leader and communicator as her LinkedIn page indicates I’d suggest Tiger wouldn’t be in the situation it currently is. That said, no different to QANTAS SOs detailing their ‘strategic decision-making’ responsibilities.

[galdian]

In fairness she's constrained by orders from above/situations she's placed into from those upon high and can only act as a mere functionary.

Now IF she was a leader she'd go to the heads and say "now take back your 73's, give us back 4 AIrbus, when you have a timetable for a professionally co-ordinated rollover give us a call otherwise leave us alone to operate fairly productively in our part of the market. Now piss off until you've got your sh*t together".

Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

[stormfury]

Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

Couldn’t agree more, particularly in the aviation industry.

[t_cas]

Couldn’t agree more, particularly in the aviation industry.

If leadership was absent in the aviation industry here in Aus, there would be smoking holes everywhere. Leadership is not restricted to the realm of corporate rank and file,,,,,,,

pilots literally and figuratively lead every time they strap in if not before.

[machtuk]

In fairness she's constrained by orders from above/situations she's placed into from those upon high and can only act as a mere functionary.

Now IF she was a leader she'd go to the heads and say "now take back your 73's, give us back 4 AIrbus, when you have a timetable for a professionally co-ordinated rollover give us a call otherwise leave us alone to operate fairly productively in our part of the market. Now piss off until you've got your sh*t together".

Management Vs Leadership, two totally different beasts one pretty much extinct.

Well said there, spot on!:-)
That's pretty much what should happen but it wont:-( When the idiots higher up at the time (a few years ago now) told the training dept that they had 18 months to train the guys up on 73's (bonding all pilots 3 years & $40K initially) as the buses where going to be sent back, from that day on TT has been a clusterf*ck of the highest magnitude & will continue to do so for the foreseeable future ! At the time this monumental idiotic idea was floated the buses where making money for TT but somehow the boffins at Virgins knew better !!! Also at the time they asked for expression of interest for the initial batch of guys to swap over, it was dismal the initial response, the management stood there shocked, they where clueless (and still are!)!

Still the whole shooting match is an entertaining show if nothing else !

[gordonfvckingramsay]

You will be crying if they close up.


I am curious about that notion 4 holer. I’ve heard that exact thing being used during EBA negotiations for years but it’s never happened. Pay and conditions are lower than they were even a decade ago and the only ones to prosper are board members.

You’re obviously an educated and well connected person.

Can you list all the airlines that have had to close down purely because pilots have pushed to either increase or even retain current conditions?

[porch monkey]

Please don't encourage him Gordon.......:mad:

[wheels_down]

Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.

[stormfury]

If leadership was absent in the aviation industry here in Aus, there would be smoking holes everywhere. Leadership is not restricted to the realm of corporate rank and file,,,,,,,

pilots literally and figuratively lead every time they strap in if not before.
Point taken, you are correct; I should have been more specific.

[machtuk]

Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.


Singapore will never close it??? Please explain that one!

[rodney rude]

Mach - I'm not a spelling or grammar nazi by any means, but a supposedly educated pilot who does not know the difference between "were" and "where" really has me questioning your schooling.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Please don't encourage him Gordon.......https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif


Oh I’d love to encourage him, I’m intrigued to know where all these failed airlines are. The truth is it’s never happened but people insist on retransmitting this garbage.

[Popgun]

But what are you specifically fighting for?

Anyone able to disclose the specific remuneration and conditions that the union/s is/are seeking?

PG

[ebt]

Singapore will never close it. They would probably even initiate a takeover of Virgin and remove those who would be planning a closure to stop it.

There was a previous MD of Tiger Singapore who was in the process of initiating a closure. He was then removed by SQ.


Well, Tiger's closed down the Phlippines and Indonesia operations a few years ago and the Tiger brand at home has Scooted off. So there's not sentimentality in the SQ Group around the Tiger brand.

VA needs Tiger in its stable but has no bloody idea on how to use it to best effect. Which, going by VA's recent performance, is ops normal.

[PoppaJo]

Well, Tiger's closed down the Phlippines and Indonesia operations a few years ago and the Tiger brand at home has Scooted off. So there's not sentimentality in the SQ Group around the Tiger brand.
Its more about saving face. There is a certain level of humiliation that our Singaporean neighbours wouldn’t want to endure in conceding defeat to Qantas and Co.

It’s a long story with a complicated history. You then have the Ryanair mob who had a large interest in the Aussie operation and kept toying with it. Singapore was just along for the ride back in 07, it was Declan Ryan and Tony that wanted the operation here. Then Singapore were left to pick up the pieces.

There was three carnations of Tiger. Mark 1 was the RyanAir show with Tony and co. Then you’ve got round 2 with Andrew and Singapore. Now it’s round 3 with the Virginisation of Tiger.

Sadly Mark 1 was probably more successful than today’s Tiger.

[machtuk]

Mach - I'm not a spelling or grammar nazi by any means, but a supposedly educated pilot who does not know the difference between "were" and "where" really has me questioning your schooling.

…...............thats it? thats what you can take away from my post? thats a pritty sad life you leed their rr:-(

[rodney rude]

Pretty, not pretty. Lead, not Leed. Moron. And my life is as happy and fulfilled as possible!!!

[Square Bear]

FFS, the thread is about TIGER INDUSTRIAL ACTION, not about who can spell.

PLEASE, back on thread, some of are interested in the subject matter.

[Popgun]

FFS, the thread is about TIGER INDUSTRIAL ACTION, not about who can spell.

PLEASE, back on thread, some of are interested in the subject matter.

Exactly.

For those of us not in the know...what are the specifics of the sticking points? What are the main bullet points you are trying to achieve in the new contract?

Transparency of remuneration and contract conditions is a good thing for all pilots in the industry.

PG

[abaderrr]

So the stop work is confirmed for this Friday morning?

[Flava Saver]

From nine.com.au



Pilots at Tigerair have announced they will take industrial action at airports across Australia to dispute a current pay agreement.

The strike will take place over a four-hour period between (5am-9am) on Friday, and involve pilots with membership to the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

“The decision to engage in a work stoppage was not made lightly,” Senior Industrial Officer James Lauchland said in an official statement this afternoon.

“Tigerair pilots fly the same aircraft as their counterparts at Jetstar, Virgin and Qantas but this is not reflected in their employment conditions.

“The current agreement is well below industry standards, both in terms of pay and conditions. Tigerair pilots are simply looking for a fair deal.

“Tigerair insists on finding savings in return for our claims for industry standard pay and conditions.”

About 75 per cent of Tigerair pilots are members of the AFAP.

[PoppaJo]

Alliance to the rescue again I assume. Alliance laughing, Virgin bleeding.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Alliance to the rescue again I assume. Alliance laughing, Virgin bleeding

Do Alliance have the capacity to cover enough of Tiger's flying to soften the impact?

Aren't Virgin one of the players in this country responsible for the bad blood between pilots and their employers?

Airlines are victims of their own cleverness :rolleyes:

And to think that there are still people here who believe the airlines hold all the cards, I think not.

[SHVC]

Do Alliance have the capacity to cover enough of Tiger's flying to soften the impact?

Aren't Virgin one of the players in this country responsible for the bad blood between pilots and their employers?

Airlines are victims of their own cleverness :rolleyes:

And to think that there are still people here who believe the airlines hold all the cards, I think not.

Cleverness??? VA is far from that!

[Buster Hyman]

Two F100's parked down at MJB.

[The Bullwinkle]

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/warnings/tigerair-pilot-strike-set-to-disrupt-australia-day-weekend-travel-plans/news-story/7606edada7d0580cf8250d9b4a62fa9e

I’m sure Merren’s got it all under control. :}

[Colonel_Klink]

Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

[PoppaJo]

Mabye Merren should pick up and phone and give Tony Davis a call. Ask him what happened when he screwed around with his Tiger Singapore Pilots pay back in 2010. Half the captains walked, 40% of flights cancelled and had to pay skippers 300 grand to stay on. Screwed the company for years to come and he got the boot. Mabye she wants the boot too?

[Pastor of Muppets]

So if all the VA group pilots were combined into one “pilot list” for “better bargaining muscle” why are the Tiger Crews doing this alone?

[hawk_eye]

So if all the VA group pilots were combined into one “pilot list” for “better bargaining muscle” why are the Tiger Crews doing this alone?

Because any other VA Group pilot taking any form of action (Secondary Boycott) could find themselves in a bit of strife for taking Unprotected (illegal) Industrial Action.

Guys and girls I speak to on the line are certainly supportive of TT pilots in what they are trying to achieve - they just can’t take any action, thanks to the Fair Work Act.

[The Bullwinkle]

Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

Are you “Hearing” those rumours or “Starting” those rumours?
On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO. Not a word from the Feds.
And not to detract from the importance of fighting for the Tiger guys and girls but surely this is a much bigger issue to fight for, and yet there’s not a single word coming from the AFAP voicing their members concerns.
Although of course, that could just be a rumour!

[wheels_down]

On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO.
Because the Chairman removed him as she didn’t like him/never agreed with him/didn’t get along with him. She ain’t gonna re hire the fella she got rid off!

I just wouldn’t even bother wasting the time fighting it. You would need to remove the chairman for that to gain legs.

[The Bullwinkle]

Because the Chairman removed him as she didn’t like him/never agreed with him/didn’t get along with him. She ain’t gonna re hire the fella she got rid off!

I just wouldn’t even bother wasting the time fighting it. You would need to remove the chairman for that to gain legs.

And yet he’d be the safest choice for the Chairman as he’d be the only prospective CEO who’s legally obligated not to divulge what a mess the current CEO has made.

[WillieTheWimp]

So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.

[davidclarke]

Is there any truth to the rumour that whilst the AFAP have been taking Industrial Action in the form of bans on working days off and the impending stop work tomorrow, that VIPA have ceased all forms of industrial action?

If that’s the case that is nothing short of a disgrace and needs to be called out as such.

Furthermore, that same rumour suggests that there are a handful of VIPA members who are actively working on their days off - which I suppose they are entitled to do. So much for solidarity.

If those rumours are true, then any further progress to the negotiations are because of the AFAP and their members fighting the good fight, despite the other ‘union’ (a term I use pretty loosely) in the room.

Indeed there are a few pilots working on their days off (obviously entitled to but results in very short term gain) but you could literally count those with one hand. I think out of 200 or so Pilot’s that shows pretty good solidarity!

[The Bullwinkle]

So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.

No. Only one union does.
The other union says nothing.

[Rated De]

So the unions lobby to appoint CEOs now...Good luck with that one.



In many countries, unions and their members are recognised as key stakeholders in the management and corporate oversight of corporations. The Germans call it 'Codetermination'.
That unions are considered the enemy, serves management and their binary view of the world well.
It makes common sense for employees, particularly those with long term employment as a goal to be included in the decision making matrix.

[Berealgetreal]

As if the board are going to listen to a Union when choosing a CEO. If anything that would probably tell them who they won’t want to employ given all they want is economic rationalism.

[SilverSleuth]

As previously pointed out by others, the company board are NEVER going to appoint a CEO that the unions say. In particular it’s laughable even more to suggest they will appoint one that the same board approved to be fired.

As for the VA pilots supporting the tiger pilots, I think you will find they absolutely do and hope they can get all they can. From an industrial point of view they are a seperate company and covered under a seperate EBA, therefore under the FWA they are not allowed at all to participate.

Both unions (VIPA and AFAP) have to also apply separately for any industrial action. They can’t automatically just do something together. In fact the company can argue for joint action to be rejected and I believe that is infact their tactic here.

[Colonel_Klink]

Are you “Hearing” those rumours or “Starting” those rumours?
On the flip side, why has the AFAP been virtually silent whilst VIPA has been working tirelessly in an effort to make the VA board realise that John Thomas is the obvious choice for CEO. Not a word from the Feds.
And not to detract from the importance of fighting for the Tiger guys and girls but surely this is a much bigger issue to fight for, and yet there’s not a single word coming from the AFAP voicing their members concerns.
Although of course, that could just be a rumour!

VIPA members choose to "keep talking"
VIPA president John Lyons told Workplace Express today that his members do not want to take protected action at this stage because the airline has "moved considerably" and they hope to complete negotiations soon, without the need for it.
"We fully endorse the action of the AFAP but our members have indicated that they would prefer to keep talking at the moment," Lyons said.

Well it seems to me that the rumours were in fact true. Perhaps you would like to explain Bullwinkle why you think it’s acceptable for VIPA to ride on the coat tails of the AFAP. Why weren’t VIPA continuing to apply industrial pressure on the company by conducting PIA? What do VIPA members think of their Union’s behaviour whilst AFAP members have done a remarkably good job in sticking together during this Industrial Action.

Perhaps it is time VIPA stop with the chest thumping and talks of working with the AFAP when all they do is undermine the AFAP in a shallow attempt to attract new members.

And finally, the old JT chestnut - an organisation would have to be so industrially naive and over think their own self sense of importance if they honestly think that they have any sway on convincing a board to appoint a CEO whom they sacked 6 months ago as COO. So maybe it’s just simply that the AFAP aren’t stupid.

[wheels_down]

Are Virgin 737 Pilots permitted to operate Tiger 737 flights? (On Tiger metal)

[porch monkey]

Let me answer that in a round about way. VA will be doing line training for TT F/O’s on the 737. They are required to be inducted into VA, EP’s etc, sim, and then they can line train. On the same A/C, same routes, etc, etc. Does that answer your question?

[wheels_down]

Let me answer that in a round about way. VA will be doing line training for TT F/O’s on the 737. They are required to be inducted into VA, EP’s etc, sim, and then they can line train. On the same A/C, same routes, etc, etc. Does that answer your question?
I was thinking more along the lines of these ‘contingency’ plans involving borrowing VA pilots to avoid cancellations and get the operation up and running to schedule.

They are sitting below 60% ontime performance and double digit cancellations. This has been going on well before any industrial action was ramped up.

The board needs m to be questioned on its logic in planning to operate a entire fleet 15-20 year old 737s to schedule on 30 min turns from 6am-12am.

[Blue Ruin]

Are Virgin 737 Pilots permitted to operate Tiger 737 flights? (On Tiger metal)


No they're not. Even if they could Virgin are stretched on the 737 operating their own routes and don't have crew sitting idly.

[machtuk]

I was thinking more along the lines of these ‘contingency’ plans involving borrowing VA pilots to avoid cancellations and get the operation up and running to schedule.

They are sitting below 60% ontime performance and double digit cancellations. This has been going on well before any industrial action was ramped up.

The board needs m to be questioned on its logic in planning to operate a entire fleet 15-20 year old 737s to schedule on 30 min turns from 6am-12am.



Several years ago when the A320's where finally making money the management at the time walked into the training office and said we are switching to an all B737 fleet and we plan to have everyone swapped over in 18 months, from that day onwards Tigers has been a clusterTruck!!
The 30 min turnaround is doable but you have to have everything going for you from good efficient ground support, a strong reliable fleet and a happy crew, all of those 3 requirements are often strained!

[Keith Myath]

VIPA president John Lyons told Workplace Express today that his members do not want to take protected action at this stage because the airline has "moved considerably" and they hope to complete negotiations soon, without the need for it.
"We fully endorse the action of the AFAP but our members have indicated that they would prefer to keep talking at the moment," Lyons said.


Stupid and weak, you ‘fully endorse the action of the AFAP’ but your own actions directly betray and undermine the AFAP’s chances of getting a better deal for all tiger pilots. VIPA - Virgin Independent Pissweak Association.

[GWhizz]

It’s a known thing that a company will avail its self of a gentle response from unions by stringing them along with a “genuine” desire to negotiate. Months or even years later, nothing has been achieved.....these are called delaying tactics. By the time this “genuine” desire to negotiate has been dragged out for a sufficiently long period, the pilots are well and truly suffering negotiation fatigue and the unions are starting to look at the cost of maintaining the fight.....they both fold.

When a union knows this is going to be the case but still allows the company to run them around till they tire, it suggests one of a few possibilities: 1. The union is incompetent, 2. They trust the company in question, 3) They have been offered an inducement.

VIPA speaking this way concerns me, and I doubt the AFAP are any different.

[The Bullwinkle]

Stupid and weak, you ‘fully endorse the action of the AFAP’ but your own actions directly betray and undermine the AFAP’s chances of getting a better deal for all tiger pilots. VIPA - Virgin Independent Pissweak Association.

If you’d seen the pile of dog turd EBA that the AFAP recommended back in 2006, you’d understand why VIPA came into existence.
The Feds were so, as you put it, Pissweak, that pilots left the AFAP and VIPA was formed.
If the AFAP had represented their members properly in the first place, VIPA wouldn’t even be here!

[dirty deeds]

If you’d seen the pile of dog turd EBA that the AFAP recommended back in 2006, you’d understand why VIPA came into existence.
The Feds were so, as you put it, Pissweak, that pilots left the AFAP and VIPA was formed.
If the AFAP had represented their members properly in the first place, VIPA wouldn’t even be here!



Dog Turd...…….do you mean the "2007" agreement?

1. You mean the Dog Turd that gives you 11/12Days off in a 28 day roster.
2. You mean the Dog Turd that has enshrined your Work Rules into the EBA, which mean CASA's absurd CAO 48.1 proposal and the insane work rules these contain won't affect you (are VIPA getting their members to conduct the CASA survey into 48.1 like the AFAP have done with all their members, or just giving out Jurlique creams?),
3. You mean the Dog Turd that is the foundation of what you have today and the Dog Turd that was discussed by APIA to QF Management (they'd love our work rules and Day Off protections instead of being on the Standard Industry Exemption (SIE)...…….do you know what that SIE "Dog Turd" looks like Bullwinkle?).

Its ok Bullwinkle, I know VIPA promised the world and delivered an Atlas...……..yet we all understand this will be the AFAP's fault to.

[The Bullwinkle]

​​​​Dog Turd...…….do you mean the "2007" agreement?

No. I mean the 2006 EBA document that received an 89% No Vote.

[GWhizz]

No. I mean the 2006 EBA document that received an 89% No Vote.

Endorsed as “the best you’ll get”?

[dirty deeds]

I don’t want to further digress from the thread, suffice to say that there were some good things in that 2006 agreement (one that springs to mind was a solid roster balancing provision that was removed post No Vote, would have fixed the unbalanced rostering that occurs today) that went begging for not much change to the one that got voted up..........remind you of the NO Vote campaign in 2011 where nothing materially changed (if anything the consultation provisions were watered down) and we lost the backpay, and the compounded interest on those lost increases.........hey, let’s not let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Bullwinkle........maybe time to get involved instead of throwing rocks? You might then see that not is all what it seems.

All the best to the AFAP members at TT conducting PIA.

[Berealgetreal]

320s making a profit would have nothing to do with routes been gifted by mainline wouldn’t it?
Heavy lifting in the group is done by.. VAA 737.

Would like to see the TT guys on the same conditions as VAA but suggestions that TT/XR etc were going great until Virgin turned up is fantasyland.

[Trevor the lover]

1. You mean the Dog Turd that gives you 11/12Days off in a 28 day roster.


Waaaaaah - 0nly 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster???!!! Trying getting sympathy from office workers, nurses, coppers, shop workers and everyone else who only get 2 days off per week, AND who aren't earning 200 grand a year. Dog turd my arse. Spoilt brats.

I'd duck due to the incoming now, but having been an airline pilot and lost 2 jobs, and then struggling to get a job for 40 grand a year, I know just how good I had it.

[Trevor the lover]

The Dog Turd that only gives you 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster.

Waaaaaah - 0nly 11 or 12 days off in a 28 day roster???!!! Trying getting sympathy from office workers, nurses, coppers, shop workers and everyone else who only get 2 days off per week, AND who aren't earning 200 grand a year. Dog turd my arse. Spoilt brats. What you do isn't that special.

I'd duck due to the incoming now, but having been an airline pilot and lost 2 jobs, and then struggling to get a job for 40 grand a year, I know just how good I had it.[/QUOTE]

[porch monkey]

Great rant Trev, but doesn't address the point. TT don't get 11/12. They would like to have it. I say good luck in their efforts. BTW, you're right, coppers don't get 11/12, but the 9 weeks annual leave a year they do get sure goes a long way to making up for it. I'm sorry you're in the position you seem to be, I wish you the best, but keep it relevant. It's an ambit claim. Like all the rest. I wish them luck..............

[Trevor the lover]

Sorry Porchy - was just directly quoting the guy who said "dog turd EBA that only gives 11 or 12 days off a month."
I take your point regarding coppers - that just leaves nurses, office workers etc etc

[Trevor the lover]

Willie

Woops, my bad. I did misread and and missed the tongue in cheek.

Ref office workers vs pilots. Many many office workers did finance degrees, law degrees, or any other 5 year degree which could compare to pilot training. Sure, I'd love everyone to do well. Just saying that $200k plus and 12 days off a month is a pretty good deal.

[Rated De]

Ref office workers vs pilots. Many many office workers did finance degrees, law degrees, or any other 5 year degree which could compare to pilot training. Sure, I'd love everyone to do well. Just saying that $200k plus and 12 days off a month is a pretty good deal.

Careful with the generalisation there Trevor.
Most undergraduate degrees, are three years.
In the Australian context, the graduate will, according to your ATO in 5% of cases accumulate a debt of AUD$50,000.00

Given the cost of a candidate funded course with government assistance is circa $149,000, the 'graduate cadet' is indentured given lack of command hours, seat changes and upgrades are completely at the whim of the employer.
A more traditional route in Australia, via the local flying school sees the pilot expend a similar amount over perhaps a three or four year period, before finally going on to acquire the hours requisite for an application to a major.
The opportunity cost is considerable and the qualification a pilot has is not readily transferable, nor are there numerous airlines.

The industry has eaten its young. That there is dwindling supply is a combination of demographic and opportunity cost meaning not only are retirement rates increasing, there are less willing to join an industry where the pay off 'possibility' is low.

[Icarus2001]

In the Australian context, the graduate will, according to your ATO in 5% of cases accumulate a debt of AUD$50,000.00

What happens in the other 95% of cases?

Any office worker who gets invited to a wedding on a Saturday next June knows they can go, pilots are controlled by the roster. There is a BIG slab of money right there. Six monthly sim check, medical, missing significant birthdays of family and friends and on it goes... Pilots get paid the MINIMUM that the company has to pay to fill the seat.

Best wishes to the Tiger guys and girls.

[Arthur D]

The industry has eaten its young. That there is dwindling supply is a combination of demographic and opportunity cost meaning not only are retirement rates increasing, there are less willing to join an industry where the pay off 'possibility' is low.

Not to mention the fact that the future prospects for Airline pilots look far from certain. Many young people are questioning how long it will be before the F/O at least goes the way of the Flight Engineer, Nav, Radio operator etc. thereby causing a massive surplus of pilots.

Within the next decade it looks increasingly likely we will see autonomous Taxi’s and potentially Air taxi’s. Once people can trust their car’s and Air taxi’s to drive themselves, how long before the ‘Airbus’ goes the same way.

Ironically, the present shortage of pilots could not have come at a worse time from this perspective. A.I. wont need simulators, allowances, rest etc. Airlines, Regulators and public acceptance may be driven by NEED.

Good luck to the TT pilots.

Personally, I would like to know what VIPA, AFAP, AIPA and even IFALPA are doing to address the looming threat to ALL professional pilots..........

[VHFRT]

I do think we as pilots are falling into the trap management sets and feeling we get paid too much.

My partner is a state employed nurse. Straight into a government job after 3 years of uni. By the time weekends and night shifts are factors in, they make as much as I do as a 73 FO.

Ontop of this, working sundays helps rack up the annual leave and they’re pulling in about 8 weeks a year. And, after each shift, they go home. Next week I’ll leave home on Monday at 6am and get back Thursday at midnight. Then do it all over again 2 days later.

Maybe we should aim to bring ourselves up, rather than talk ourselves down?

[machtuk]

I do think we as pilots are falling into the trap management sets and feeling we get paid too much.

My partner is a state employed nurse. Straight into a government job after 3 years of uni. By the time weekends and night shifts are factors in, they make as much as I do as a 73 FO.

Ontop of this, working sundays helps rack up the annual leave and they’re pulling in about 8 weeks a year. And, after each shift, they go home. Next week I’ll leave home on Monday at 6am and get back Thursday at midnight. Then do it all over again 2 days later.

Maybe we should aim to bring ourselves up, rather than talk ourselves down?

That you are welcome 2. Several nights away at a time is NOT a decent lifestyle, at least Tigers don't do that, but that is the only bonus, the rest is a joke!

[George Glass]

Here's an idea for all those pleading social equity in pay. If you dont like it, get out. I have a 3 Year Bachelor Degree and had a comfortable office job. I loathed it. I busted my a#rse and became a Pilot. No risk , no gain. I get pretty tired of hearing Public Servants bitching about their miserable lives. Go for it Tiger guys and gals. You're never going to get support from the general public anyway , so don't worry about it.

[Shot Nancy]

The glass is half full.

[The Bullwinkle]

If you dont like it, get out.

Many are in fact getting out.
And very few are coming in.
No longer viewed as a decent career by anybody.

[rep]

Whats the latest with the industrial action?

[knobbycobby]

Good luck to all at Tiger.
You have to fight to improve terms and conditions. It’s a worthy fight. Agree with others sentiments of talking up the profession. It’s a tough job with a huge entry cost. Early starts, late shifts, holidays And Christmas lost to work.
If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything.

Best Wishes.

[PoppaJo]

Numbers out today

1 in 10 flights cancelled last month.

Time to gut the joint. 4 weeks till he starts. I know many have fingers crossed.

[Stationair8]

Rumour has it that there has been no catering on Tiger flights for the last few weeks?

[myshoutcaptain]

Airbus should look into installing an EGT gauge somewhere on the dashboard.

You mean like the one just below N1 on the upper DU.

[mppgf]

You mean like the one just below N1 on the upper DU.

Looks like your'e a wannabe Airbus pilot Captain

[davidclarke]

Rumour has it that there has been no catering on Tiger flights for the last few weeks?

Since the 1st of February apparently

[The Bullwinkle]

Rumour has it that there has been no catering on Tiger flights for the last few weeks?

Ahhhh....... So they are making some improvements! :ok:

[wheels_down]

What’s the go?

Some form of PIA Catering block?

[machtuk]

Change of contractor I hear, as usual a real cluster fcku!

[wheels_down]

New Boss around the corner. The cluster****s just roll on and on.

How many budget carriers around the globe go without the major ancillary revenue stream of onboard food and beverage for a month?

What am I missing here? Are people just wanting to be fired or something?

[machtuk]

New Boss around the corner. The cluster****s just roll on and on.

How many budget carriers around the globe go without the major ancillary revenue stream of onboard food and beverage for a month?

What am I missing here? Are people just wanting to be fired or something?



When you have an aviation company that has had a revolving door policy for the CEO, the Chief Pilot and other high end positions in the training dept the decisions that are made are continuously changing destroying any chance of direction and stability!
Tigers has always been a rudderless ship accept for a brief period when KB was in charge of the troops, the rest of the so called qualified management have been appalling and it shows daily!

[Servo]

When you have an aviation company that has had a revolving door policy for the CEO, the Chief Pilot and other high end positions in the training dept the decisions that are made are continuously changing destroying any chance of direction and stability!
Tigers has always been a rudderless ship accept for a brief period when KB was in charge of the troops, the rest of the so called qualified management have been appalling and it shows daily!

You mean like Virgin..................... No different. Just different colour jets and uniforms.

[PoppaJo]

Tiger getting newer 737s now? Say whaaat!

[davidclarke]

Tiger getting newer 737s now? Say whaaat!

bit hard running a LCC with 15 year old 737s:rolleyes:

[porch monkey]

Depends on what your lease costs are. Bit hard to run an lcc with doubled lease costs.

[davidclarke]

Depends on what your lease costs are. Bit hard to run an lcc with doubled lease costs.

Show me a successful LCC running old aircraft?

[MonsterC01]

Show me a successful LCC running old aircraft?

SouthWest ring any bells!

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Were is the evidence that the aircraft moving to TT are '15 years old'? One would suspect that the transfer plan would leverage the youngest out of the mix, with the oldest to be returned to lessors or sold as the MAX's arrive?

There is obviously economic benefits by leveraging a single type for the group that supports not just engineering, but training and other support provisions. Tiger is small, and will not become the behemoth like Jetstar - so it makes sense for the small operator to take advantage of group scale and economies to optimise profitability.

[PoppaJo]

[font="arial"]Were is the evidence that the aircraft moving to TT are '15 years old'? One would suspect that the transfer plan would leverage the youngest out of the mix, with the oldest to be returned to lessors or sold as the MAX's arrive?
VOR 15.1yrs old
VOY 14.7yrs
VUB 14.5yrs
VUD 14.4yrs
YVA 7.7yrs

[Wizofoz]

SouthWest ring any bells!

Add Jet2 to that.

[PoppaJo]

All those carriers have large fleets and can substitute or funnel people around the network with very little in the way of delay.

It’s less forgiving at Tiger, with a fleet of older aircraft it’s no secret the engineering problems are elevated, and one or two aircraft down, be it hours of days, is 10% of the network!

[porch monkey]

Which is exactly the same issue tiger has always had. And will continue to do so regardless of A/c type or age. Fleet size and capacity are the drivers for making up flights on cancellation and tech issues.

[wheels_down]

Which is exactly the same issue tiger has always had. And will continue to do so regardless of A/c type or age. Fleet size and capacity are the drivers for making up flights on cancellation and tech issues.
I think age is most certainly a factor if one was to look at the engineering history and unscheduled downtime of hand-me-down VUB vs Sharklet XUH.

[Buster Hyman]

There is obviously economic benefits by leveraging a single type for the group that supports not just engineering, but training and other support provisions. Makes a lot of sense...until you see the TT A320's repainted for VARA.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x300/avap_slide_a320_vhyud_f877021ee0ae81a6405b146c4c06a2ac8d5b5a 95.jpg

[wheels_down]

VNB has left Tiger this week for VARA.

The rest of the Tiger fleet are later build with newer Airbus upgrades that carry larger lease bills so probably won’t transfer as like Network they only seem to take on the $hitboxes.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I would think that this is just related to lease arrangements. It makes sense to get the LCC cASK down as low as possibe, and give the higher yielding regional airline the 320's.

[The Bullwinkle]

Show me a successful LCC running old aircraft?

Ummm..... Ever heard of Virgin Blue?
Started out with old classics and then grew from there.
Tiger has just been a cluster f@#k and throwing some newer aircraft at it won’t make an ounce of difference!

[davidclarke]

Ummm..... Ever heard of Virgin Blue?
Started out with old classics and then grew from there.
Tiger has just been a cluster f@#k and throwing some newer aircraft at it won’t make an ounce of difference!

Virgin Blues first 2 “old classics” were only 5 and 8 years old at the time......and they only keep the “classics” for a few short years before the NGs were bought into service.

[MonsterC01]

Ummm...In the past 5 years alone Virgin has lost 1 billion. Since it's ASX IPO in 2003 share price has gone from upwards of $2 to now being worth $0.20. Shareholders receiving perhaps a handful of dividends since its listing. Debt/equity ratio well in excess of 200%.

Tiger is without a doubt a total cluster f@#k but don't kid yourself about Virgin being successful.


Actually if we’re going to get specific the Virgin Blue / Virgin Australia 737 operation has always made money. The B737 has always been an accountants aircraft. And the VO, VB, VU aircraft which have been the backbone of the Virgin fleet for the last 15 years have always been the most reliable. In fact I think the most issues I have now days would be with the newer SFP 737’s. If you don’t stuff around with them cutting holes in the roof and adding wifi/electric everything to them their dispatch reliability is something like 99%.

Thats why I have to laugh when good old Merrin starts mouthing off about wanting the newer ones course they’re more reliable. I suppose this is the aviation guru that told a meeting of VARA management when they were meeting to discuss what to do with the aging Fokker fleet to,”just go and buy more of them”. Who says you need experience in aviation to run an airline! ��

The only danger facing Tiger if they get the dirt cheap leases on the older B737’s is that they might actually make a profit.

[Icarus2001]

Virgin Blue / Virgin Australia 737 operation has always made money. what kind of version of making money do you mean? Have you got any actual links, figures, financial statements to back this up or is just the vibe man.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

It is worth noting that Tigerair is (at least at the half-way point) profitable at an EBITDA level. Accelerated depreciation rates are what sunk the numbers which are non-cash impacts. Even with the $12m fuel and FX impact - TT would have reported a small operating profit.

[The Bullwinkle]

Ummm...In the past 5 years alone Virgin has lost 1 billion.

I said Virgin Blue!
​​​​​​​We haven’t been either Virgin Blue OR profitable in the last 5 years!

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Whilst VA's interest cover and financial leverage are not good at all - it is profitable. With free cashflow in the $m's.

[Superman1]

Buster Hyman... I’m glad someone else can see the stupidity....another master stroke by VA... how is this fleet simplification?!? Take from one AOC and put on another.. was the original plan not to remove the A320 completely??. That would be simplication...

[machtuk]

Tigers had so many 'original plans' since it's inception that they have all gotten lost & gone down the toilet! Once upon a time the idea's where coming think & fast, none worthy of long term plans to this day!
CASA must shake their heads!!!

[wheels_down]

Are there any major differences between the NG’s that are 04 build and those 10 years later?

[ebt]

Are there any major differences between the NG’s that are 04 build and those 10 years later?

From memory, the later builds had some aerodynamic clean-ups, but the difference to operating costs is probably the width of a bee's appendage. Apart from getting closer to C or D check intervals, the cost difference between new and old should me minimal. VA have a bunch of older 737s effectively coming back on their balance sheet over the next few years from their 2015 enhanced equipment note issue, so the ownership costs on those older jets are minimal. But mainline doesn't want more capacity so some of them get shunted to TTIn theory, that means that TT's overheads come down, and they can tap into the wider VA group maintenance and spares arrangements, everyone wins.

All of which ignores that A320 fleet that TT has operated from day dot, a number of which are leased out to 2023 on quite high rates due to the shortage of frames when the previous owners signed the leases. Which, by the way, aren't as easy to break as it was probably assumed.

So some of those get shunted across to VARA as its mining clients look to up-scale for major construction projects, and hey they operate A320s anyway so all good right? But VARA's business model is based on low utilisation using clapped-out and mid-life A320s, not the rates that are being paid for the TT birds. But, hey, there is work for them on mining charter, supplementing mainline and the Christmas/Cocos work is about to pick up now ScoMo has reopened the detention centre there.

All the while, the TT drivers are sick of their pay talks being stalled for so long, unsteady management that really doesn't five a flying fvck about the unit, cock-ups in catering, and being forced to make a million changes on the fly to schedules etc.

I'm an outsider, but is that a fair summary of the state of play?

[machtuk]

sorry 'ebt' you sugar coated the real Tigers within, you painted a rosy picture by comparison as to what really goes on inside the clusterfcku castle!
Never have I seen such a dysfunctional Airline that continues to defy the laws of gravity!

[ebt]

As I said, machtuk, I'm just an outsider looking in at the absolute hash that VA have made of TT, so can't comment on what happens on the inside. But put it this way, if what we see on the outside reflects even a bit of what's happening on the inside, then the poor girls and blokes on the front line need a lot of help. Borg's isn't going to do it in his last few weeks, so over to Scurrah.

[wheels_down]

As I said, machtuk, I'm just an outsider looking in at the absolute hash that VA have made of TT, so can't comment on what happens on the inside. But put it this way, if what we see on the outside reflects even a bit of what's happening on the inside, then the poor girls and blokes on the front line need a lot of help. Borg's isn't going to do it in his last few weeks, so over to Scurrah.
Borgs never gave two minutes to the operation, he rarely seemed interested.

Singapore essentially made the buyout happen, most certainly would not have happened on his watch, more ideally Tiger folded.

[TBM-Legend]

Have no fear as this is Women's Day and Lady Merrin rides in to to save Tiger. [see today's Australian]

[Buster Hyman]

Have no fear as this is Women's Day and Lady Merrin rides in to to save Tiger. [see today's Australian]

And she's delivered the EBA! (With 100% Fixed-ish rosters!) :ugh:

[davidclarke]

And she's delivered the EBA! (With 100% Fixed-ish rosters!) :ugh:

One less thing on the list......
Now to fix the catering issue and work out what to do with the fleet transition if the MAX gets delayed any further.....

[wheels_down]

Expect alot of arse covering all across Virgin before the boss starts next week.

[Browsing]

Anyone got details of the new pay scales?
Any other big changes?

[Buster Hyman]

Don't have the payscales, but the fixed rosters will have two pattern choices I believe. VARA doing the next roster so that should be fun. (I'm assuming they've started on it by now though)

[machtuk]

Around Capt $220K & F/O usually 60% of that, approx.
It's not a happy camp but hey no one forced them to join!

[Popgun]

Anyone got details of the new pay scales?
Any other big changes?






Captain $215,000
FO Level 3 (> 5 years) $144.050 (67%)
FO Level 2 (2-5 years) $137,600 (64%)
FO Level 1 (< 2 years) $118,250 (55%)

2.5% CPI increase each December. Based on 60 hour month. Overtime in excess of 60 hours = CA $170/hr and FO $85/hr.

Looks like there's also a few other bits and pieces (Sign-on bonus CA 10k and FO 6.7k, Move-to-fixed roster lump sum payment CA 3k and FO 2k , paxing allowance payment CA $40/block hr and FO $20/block hr).

Disappointing to see the FO overtime and paxing rate is only 50% of CA rate.

PG

PS. These details from the "Ballot Version" TT Pilots 2019 EA that was forwarded to me

[Browsing]

Captain $215,000
FO Level 3 (> 5 years) $144.050 (67%)
FO Level 2 (2-5 years) $137,600 (64%)
FO Level 1 (< 2 years) $118,250 (55%)

2.5% CPI increase each December. Based on 60 hour month. Overtime in excess of 60 hours = CA $170/hr and FO $85/hr.

Looks like there's also a few other bits and pieces (Sign-on bonus CA 10k and FO 6.7k, Move-to-fixed roster lump sum payment CA 3k and FO 2k , paxing allowance payment CA $40/block hr and FO $20/block hr).

Disappointing to see the FO overtime and paxing rate is only 50% of CA rate.

PG

PS. These details from the "Ballot Version" TT Pilots 2019 EA that was forwarded to me


So if they were to work a 69hr month (that’s the VA o/t threshold) that’s balllpark
9 hrs overtime per month for 10 months which makes it roughly $230k. A VA Cpt is currently $233k base ($239k from July)
Doesn’t sound too bad but I don’t know what else is in the package.

[Berealgetreal]

I think VAA captain has significantly more days off than a Tiger Captain. The new EBA is also yielding quite a few extra days above the minimum.

Whats the change to the Tiger rostering?

[Buster Hyman]

Whats the change to the Tiger rostering?

Being done by VARA now. OCC will probably head there too.

[Popgun]

I think VAA captain has significantly more days off than a Tiger Captain. The new EBA is also yielding quite a few extra days above the minimum.
The Tiger EA document shows:

137 days off annually
plus
29 days annual leave

PG

[Berealgetreal]

VAA standby pilot (13 for 13 rosters) is 169 and 42 annual leave (211).
VAA non standby (11 and 12 alternating 13 rosters) is 149 and 42 annual leave (191).

With new EBA most are getting a few more days than the EBA minimum.

Vs Tiger 166 total.

The salary is indeed close when you bring the hours up to 69 but if you’re going to do that you have to look at how much time you have at home as well for the apples with apples comparison. To be fair the best comparison would be with Jetstar.

Anyway best of luck to the TT guys and girls.

[Beer Baron]

I’m not familiar with either of the awards you are comparing but externally the amount of days off sounds pretty good. Just a query though, do you add the annual leave days off on top of all the other days off? Or should you be subtracting the days off you’d have had while on leave from that tally?

Sorry if if that sounds confusing but I’m not sure if you get all the days off (13x13) PLUS the annual leave or you don’t add the 13 days off for the month you are on leave?

[Berealgetreal]

I don’t know the Tiger agreement that well but for Virgin Narrow Body it’s 13 rosters with 11/12 alternating days off per roster. If you get allocated or bid for standby (and some do) it’s 13 days off. 42 annual leave is separate. I think, but don’t quote me, you can take annual leave as a single day or as 42 in a row if you know what I mean.

The recent Eba gets extra days off included when the company wants you to flip you from a late to an early. As a result the days off tend to be more than the minimum. I’ve heard anywhere’s from standard 11/12 to 18 off per 28 day roster. I think Tiger is a monthly roster but again don’t quote me.

[wheels_down]

Will be interesting to see how Jetstar reacts as their EBA ends next month.

Bit of a pay difference now between VARA 320 and Tiger 320.

[kair1234]

In relation to VA days off, you do 13 rosters a year of which 1.5 rosters are annual leave (42 days). The remaining 11.5 rosters have alternating 11 and 12 days off (minimum).

Therefore 132 days off plus 42 annual leave = 174 days off.

Standby rosters have 13 days off.

I've been getting about 2 additional days off (blank days) a roster since the new work rules were implemented.

[PoppaJo]

Tiger done.

Let the Jetstar $hitfight begin.

[wheels_down]

14% ontime departures out of Melbourne yesterday.

0% of 737 flights left on time.

[Beer Baron]

Therefore 132 days off plus 42 annual leave = 174 days off.
Ok, thanks for that. 211 guaranteed days off per year sounded too good to be true.
But with the additional days off you’re currently getting it’s not far off. That’s great.

[Berealgetreal]

Apologies Beer Baron wrote it late at night