Club check flights and the eternal dilemma PIC or DUAL

[Sam_MHN]

Hi Folks,

As usual I am back to ask advice. I need to ask you about the always unclear issue of club check flights and how they are supposed to be considered, either pic or dual, who is legally entitled to log the hours etc. Here is what I understand, correct me with anything you disagree.

Possible ways of logging hours:

-PICUS: Used in single pilot planes engaged in multicrew ops. Not in use anymore in ATO environment, so disregard.

-SPIC: The student is supposed to be in control of the entire flight, still being subject to instruction from the FI/FE*. Afaik usually included in certain CPL syllabus for the simulated IFR, IFR or ME phase. Both pilots log hours as PIC, the name of the PIC on both logbooks is the instructor or FE. *For flight exams with the FE, if failed they are logged as DUAL instead. In conclusion, for what I am asking I think SPIC is not usable.

-DUAL: Flight when engaged in instructional duties within a certified course for the obtention of a licence or rating,used in all sitiuations instructing except for the ones that will be logged as SPIC. For the situation asked I think is not correct to log hours as dual, but I am unsure since I have seen instructors log this kind of hours, plus most pilot members of a club will always be pressing to log hours for them, as PIC so that they can be used for licence revalidation.

-PIC: Self explanatory.

So this is how I would consider doing it for club checks...

Going back to the subject, my understanding is that for club checkrides the logical and most clear choice would be to just consider the hours as PIC for the club pilot (obviously the FI gets paid the Dual fee:} ) the instructor logs nothing, but you still need leave written proof somehere that the flight has been done with the FI, so I guess that the paper form that most schools or clubs have would be good to leave that noted for the authority. What is unclear to me supposing that all previous is right is what to do with plane books, do you write one or both in the pilot column?.

Feel free to correct the previous entire paragraph that was my idea of how to do it but it is unclear depending who you ask,...

And what about hours for the SEP revalidation (12+1 hours within last year). My understanding is that this is the only exception, since there you are performing a flight with the purpose of (re)obtaining a new licence so in that case DUAL would be the right way to proceed. What do you think?

Thanks again for your good advice, I look forward to your answers:D

Happy landings.

Samuel

[Whopity]

FCL010 "Dual instruction time" means flight time or instrument ground time during which a person is
receiving flight instruction from a properly authorised instructor.So if you are receiving instruction it is Dual.
"Pilot-in-command under supervision" (PICUS) means a co-pilot performing, under the supervision of
the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command.The UK CAA has stated in an Alt AMC that this may also be used for SP Tests where the candidate passes.

SPIC is only used on Integrated courses for IR training.
And what about hours for the SEP revalidation (12+1 hours within last year). My understanding is that this is the only exception, since there you are performing a flight with the purpose of (re)obtaining a new licence The requirement is a Dual flight or flights totalling 1 hour. In the case of a revalidation, you are not reobtaining anything, you are extending the validity of an existing rating.
Loging of flight time is delegated to National Authorities so you need to comply with the relevant National legislation.,

[Whopity]

As stated above, it is 12 hours not (12+1 hours within last year)
FCL.740.A
(ii) within the 12 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, complete 12 hours
of flight time in the relevant class, including:
— 6 hours as PIC,
— 12 take-offs and 12 landings, and
— refresher training of at least 1 hour of total flight time with a flight instructor (FI)
or a class rating instructor (CRI).

[hugh flung_dung]

The answer to the OP's question comes from considering who will own the accident or incident if the trip does not go well - this is the person who signed for the aircraft and that person therefore logs P1. In the club world this is usually the FI. It's not possible for two people to log P1 so the person being checked must be Pu/t (P1/s is not an option unless the flight is a test with an FE).
I've met several club pilots who are unhappy with this situation and use P1/s or P1, but this is outwith the rules.

HFD

[Level Attitude]

PIC = Pilot In Command, no more and no less.
A PIC cannot suddenly decide that they are not (although I do not believe it is a good idea, I do know that some pilots, when flying together, plan for one to be PIC for the first half of a flight and the other for the second half - I hope no arguments ensue!)

More importantly, in relation to this topic, no matter how bad a pilot they are, no one has the legal authority to take over from the PIC in flight.

A Check Flight is designed to assess the unknown competence (presumably to rent out an aircraft) of a pilot.

I, therefore, disagree with Sam MHN that there is an 'eternal dilemma' on how the Checkee should Log the flight:
-If the Checker is an Instructor the Checkee Logs PUT
-If the Checker is a non-Instructor, Club Check-Out Pilot, the Checkee Logs nothing (as they are simply a Passenger who has been allowed to fly the aircraft).

Flying with an Instructor, the Checkee would, presumably, pay the full cost of the flight.
Flying with a non-Instructor (making full use of cost sharing), the Checkee would, presumably, pay the full cost of the flight LESS One Penny/One Cent - which would need to be paid by the Checker.

[anchorhold]

This seems relatively simple, but perhaps I am old school, it used to be defined in the front of CAP 407 (log book), I'm not sure where PICUS, SPIC or PICUS comes from, perhaps euroland.

It is quite simple:

P1 - Pilot in Command (solo or with PAX)
P2 - Co-Pilot
P1 u/s - Pilot in command under supervision (Skill test or renewal). Note as long as P1 does not have to take the controls.
PUT - Pilot in training
SNY - Supernumery ( In this case occupying the jump seat during an observation)

The only oddity regarding the above, is the scenario or let say an A320, where the first officer is PF (pilot flying) and the captain is PNF (pilot not flying), in which case, I would say the captain is P1 and the first officer is P2, as regardless of who is the handling pilot, the captain is the commander and hence P1. I have known some first officers who consider PF as P1 u/s or P1, others may not agree with my interpretation.

The one thing I am not clear about is where an aircraft is deemed single crew, such as a Citation or King Air, yet opts for a second pilot or pilot assistant is that logged as P2 or SNY?

[Whopity]

The one thing I am not clear about is where an aircraft is deemed single crew, such as a Citation or King Air, yet opts for a second pilot or pilot assistant is that logged as P2 or SNY? The certification of the aircraft determines the minimum crew required to operate it. How many crew are actually used is then up to the Operator, so long as the result is at least equal to the minimum there is no problem. SPIC came from the JAA becaue it was not legal for an unrated pilot to fly IFR even though the UK CAA permitted it for training at Integrated schools. P1(S) has been around in th UK ANO for many years.
Art 228 states: 228.—(1) A personal flying log must be kept by—
(a) every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom
(2) The information to be recorded is—
(3) Detailed information about each flight during which the holder of the log acted either—
(a) as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft
(4) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (3) must include—
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
The problem is that the law never considered operating capacity in flights involving non-instructors. Therefore, you can log whatever you like so long as you comply with Art 228. I think any Court would rule that a pilot being checked out, is acting as a flight crew member, and as such the flight should be recorded. If not, there is no record of the flight and if an Insurer or Court subsequently asked the candidate if had he ever been checked out as a pilot on that aircraft, he could say no, I was only a passenger.