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Lantern10
25th Apr 2018, 02:11
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry

About 279,000 barrels a day of fuel won’t be needed this year

The numbers are staggering. China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

meadowrun
25th Apr 2018, 02:32
Anything that doesn't sound like it has a Gardner under the cowl is a shoebox on wheels.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d8/16/6b/d8166b36c7cf1c3d6518c48f4d215a1d--auto-bus-bus-coach.jpg
note the handy banners letting the citizens know what season it is.

handsfree
25th Apr 2018, 05:13
A good idea those seasonal banners. Sometimes impossible to tell which season it is
here without.

Dawn is breaking here as I type and the racket from the birdie chorus is wonderful.
Looks like we are in for a least a pleasant morning as well.

Having an angiogram done this afternoon. Another excuse to punch a hole in my body.

Linedog
25th Apr 2018, 05:19
Having an angiogram done this afternoon. Another excuse to punch a hole in my body.

Good luck with that. Had mine 15 years ago and it saved my life.

Crownstay01
25th Apr 2018, 06:00
Anything that doesn't sound like it has a Gardner under the cowl is a shoebox on wheels.

I mostly agree with your sentiment, but this bus has an AEC motor. I think the only deckers we had with Gardners were a small batch of prewar Albions. Here's our AEC on its first night out after restoration:

Mr Optimistic
25th Apr 2018, 06:31
Either they have tinkered with the colours on this site or I am going blind. Anyway, is that right, 9500 new electric busses in China every 5 weeks with 385000 busses? I need to adjust my sense of scale.

Pontius Navigator
25th Apr 2018, 07:41
So why did we do away with teams and trolley buses in the 50s.(1937 in Birkenhead).

Just a thought, I wonder if it was part of Cold War Civil Defence policy as trolley buses would be wholly dependent on fixed infrastructure whereas diesel buses would be potentially more flexible.

jolihokistix
25th Apr 2018, 07:45
Planners back then were off their trolley?

Fareastdriver
25th Apr 2018, 09:31
I used to fly over the BYD factory in Shenzhen when they first started about twenty years ago. They started with petrol engine vehicles for short time and then went electric. Not only are all the buses in Shenzhen electric but most of their taxis are too. This has all been enabled by the nuclear power station built near Shenzhen which supplies Shenzhen, half of Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

jolihokistix
25th Apr 2018, 10:16
For many years Chinese buses carried a huge billowing gas balloon on the roof.

Fareastdriver
25th Apr 2018, 10:19
For many years Chinese buses carried a huge billowing gas balloon on the roof.

I can remember those at Luzhao in the 90s. Then they changed to LPG.

The same during WWII in Manchester

.

Thomas coupling
25th Apr 2018, 11:34
Why hasn't GB caught onto changing our diesel buses for electric. There must be a technical or operational reason, surely?

Blacksheep
25th Apr 2018, 11:41
Zero emissions? I wonder where they get the electricity from?

ORAC
25th Apr 2018, 11:47
Just a pity about the hundreds of power stations they're building every year to power them.......

Fareastdriver
25th Apr 2018, 11:54
Zero emissions? I wonder where they get the electricity from?

From Wiki.

As of March 2018, the People's Republic of China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) has 38 nuclear reactors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor) operating with a capacity of 34.5 GW and 18 under construction with a capacity of 21 GW

Exrigger
25th Apr 2018, 11:55
Zero emissions? I wonder where they get the electricity from?

It matters not how large the carbon foot print is to produce the materials to make the electric cars/busses/bikes, wind farms or solar panels, or to transport them to the assembly plants/locations, neither does the source of electricity to power electric vehicles, or for that matter servicing them and finally disposing of said items once past their sell by date, it only matters that the greens see they are achieving an end state of zero emission vehicles, it makes them feel all good, regardless of the final cost financially as they are rather expensive currently.

VP959
25th Apr 2018, 12:04
So why did we do away with teams and trolley buses in the 50s.(1937 in Birkenhead).

Just a thought, I wonder if it was part of Cold War Civil Defence policy as trolley buses would be wholly dependent on fixed infrastructure whereas diesel buses would be potentially more flexible.

I think we still had trolley buses into the 1950's and 60's, as I have distant memories of seeing them in High Wycombe, when staying with my grandmother as a small boy. I have a feeling that they were phased out because of the limitations of all the overhead cables they required. As a small boy I remember seeing a trolley bus stuck in the middle of the road because the power collecting rods had become detached from the cable, and the driver was using a long pole to try and hook the things back on to the overhead cables. Not sure if this was a one-off, or a regular problem with them. Maintaining all those overhead cables must have cost a fair bit too, as well as impose a lot of restrictions on the other services that wanted to sling cables along and across roads.

The odd thing seems to be that we phased out electric trams and trolley buses around the same time as we were being promised free electricity in the future, thanks to nuclear power.

meadowrun
25th Apr 2018, 12:11
Well, gotta cut down that smog somehow. Electric buses replace all those spewing ground level exhaust pipes with very tall coal power station exhaust chimneys. This relocates the pollution from your ankles to somewhere up high where the winds will carry it far enough to be someone else's problem - maybe.
Most of our urban buses have always been electric trolleys with diesels running the suburban routes. There are some plans for a trial of pure electrics (Chinese buses as it happens)(not like we've not trialed electrics before, and hydrogen.) Problems have been our hills, their ranges, ranges under heavy loads, dependability and re-charging. New one's are supposed to re-charge wirelessly from some under-pavement system. We'll see.

(China is the largest producer and consumer of coal in the world, and is the largest user of coal-derived electricity, generating 3959 trillion watt-hours per year, or 74% of its electricity from coal as of 2014.)
But, it is trending down slowly.

G-CPTN
25th Apr 2018, 12:15
I think we still had trolley buses into the 1950's and 60's, as I have distant memories of seeing them in High Wycombe, when staying with my grandmother as a small boy. As a small boy I remember seeing a trolley bus stuck in the middle of the road because the power collecting rods had become detached from the cable, and the driver was using a long pole to try and hook the things back on to the overhead cables. Not sure if this was a one-off, or a regular problem with them.

The odd thing seems to be that we phased out electric trams and trolley buses around the same time as we were being promised free electricity in the future, thanks to nuclear power.
Newcastle trolleybuses were withdrawn October 1966.
Replacing the overhead arms onto the wires was a standard occurrence - the long pole was stored under the bus.

Yes - what happened to free electricity?

meadowrun
25th Apr 2018, 12:24
Power collection poles are now attached by rope from the head end to two tensioned, ratcheted reels on the back of the bus. The reels pull the poles down about halfway from the wires if there is a disconnect. The operator then can re-attach the poles by manipulating the ropes. No extra pole required.

Free electricity is right there - beside the free lunch.

G-CPTN
25th Apr 2018, 12:26
In the 1950s as diesels became as cost effective the 'inflexibility' of a fixed infrastructure became to be perceived as a disadvantage. At that time, decreasing public transport ridership was often just accepted as inevitable and environmental issues were of little concern. As equipment wore out, many trolleybus systems were replaced by diesels. Falling markets for trolleybuses and their equipment increased costs and accelerated the decline.
The reasons for London's dieselisation are complex.

First the economics post-war were different to pre-war. Pre-war, trolleys were definitely cheaper than motor buses per passenger mile for many reasons including the small maximum capacity of motor buses [56 to keep within laden weight restrictions] and the high price of fuel [with a double deck petrol bus doing only about 4.5 miles per gallon] and the lower wages of trolleybus drivers compared to motor bus drivers. Post war all of these factors changed and the costs were around equal. No one in authority was interested in the environmental factors at that time and it was a fact that to change the wiring for any new traffic schemes required a large amount of paper work at associated high cost to LT [even though the actual costs of the poles and wires might be fairly cheap].

The other reason [although never really admitted by LT] was that the Chiswick bus people had spent a fortune producing the 'ultimate' motor bus, the Routemaster. This money had to be recouped by a production run of Routemasters to replace something. By 1958 [when the Routemasters were supposed to come on stream] and even by 1959 [when they actually did] the RT family fleet was not old enough to need replacing [the last ones having been built in 1954 and having only entered service in 1956]. The only vehicles the RM's could replace were the trolleybuses. So the demise of the London Trolleys and thus the remaining UK systems is the usual complex mix of ingredients, very few of which applied to the mainland of Europe.

In provincial systems, electricity nationalization in 1948 meant that local operators could no longer generate their own cheap electricity [often from power stations built for the trams which was getting life expired], so the cost of operating went up.

At a similar time, petrol-engined motor-buses which could not shift 70+ passengers up any sort of hill, were being superseded by ever-improving diesel engined buses, whose capacity was rapidly approaching that of a trolleybus.

Gathering pace during the post-war decade were improvements and changes which culminated in the 1960's penchant for removing anything perceived as 'old'. One result of which was massive inner-city development, with their ring-roads, one-way systems and the like, which of course meant escalating costs for trolleybus overhead moving, just at the time when the above, more flexible [in this sense] diesel buses became practical.

There were subsidies for buying new diesel buses around this time, and subsidies on their fuel, neither of which applied to trolleybuses.

The post-war boom in private cars meant that revenues from public transport were declining at the same time.

Councils were being squeezed on their budgets, if only because of the immense pressures on a multitude of other projects, hence anything that saved capital expense [or replacement] was seen as justifiable.

There is no doubt that the nationalization of power supplies, which meant that cities could not "cross-subsidise" power for transport, had a big effect. Glasgow in particular lost out when their generating plant was transferred to the government.

However, the major factor was the suppliers. They were just not interested. I remember bumping into the Huddersfield Manager about 1963, when we both gazed in amazement at a section of new overhead on the Inner Ring Road, then being constructed. The amazement was due to the mix-up between the contractors and Corporation's wiring people, resulting in buses running down the wrong carriageway [i.e. against the traffic] for a few weeks. I did ask him that as they had gone to the expense of re-wiring quite a bit of the Waterloo route whether they meant to keep the remaining trolleys. No, he said, he would like to but the final straw was that British Leyland [who had come to own all the trolleybus makers] had just told him to order all spares needed for the next ten years as after they were made no spare parts would be supplied. So Huddersfield trolleys had to go and ten minutes was added to the Marsden route to allow for the slower motor buses.

From:- Why the Demise of UK Trolleybuses? (http://www.trolleybus.net/demise.htm)

DType
25th Apr 2018, 18:07
The schoolboy trick when exiting an Edinburgh tram, was to tweak the rope, thus pulling the pole off the wire.
The clippie then had to manoeuver the pole back onto the wire before progress could be resumed.
Or so I was told.

sidevalve
25th Apr 2018, 19:44
Here on the Basque coast (Biarritz/Anglet/Bayonne) a new "Tram'Bus" network is being implemented. The infrastructure requirement has been minimised (no overhead wires) as the new Tram'Bus will be battery powered - this means zero emissions in town. The units recharge at the termini. ISD 2019.

meadowrun
25th Apr 2018, 19:46
And how is it working out?
Any "Battery Flat" service disruptions?

sidevalve
25th Apr 2018, 19:52
Not in service yet. In and around Bayonne they've had a free electric shuttle bus (https://www.bayonne-tourisme.com/en/getting-around/getting-around/free-shuttle.php) (battery powered) for 15 years or so. Works fine!

BigEndBob
25th Apr 2018, 22:57
I think we still had trolley buses into the 1950's and 60's, as I have distant memories of seeing them in High Wycombe, when staying with my grandmother as a small boy. I have a feeling that they were phased out because of the limitations of all the overhead cables they required. As a small boy I remember seeing a trolley bus stuck in the middle of the road because the power collecting rods had become detached from the cable, and the driver was using a long pole to try and hook the things back on to the overhead cables. Not sure if this was a one-off, or a regular problem with them. Maintaining all those overhead cables must have cost a fair bit too, as well as impose a lot of restrictions on the other services that wanted to sling cables along and across roads.

The odd thing seems to be that we phased out electric trams and trolley buses around the same time as we were being promised free electricity in the future, thanks to nuclear power.

Can remember as a 8 year old trolley buses in Walsall. They would use a bamboo pole to reattach the pick up arm
They have a couple of trolley buses at the Black Country museum, Dudley.

k3k3
25th Apr 2018, 23:11
As a small boy the diesel fumes on the corporation motor buses made me feel nauseous, I loved the trolley buses.

jolihokistix
26th Apr 2018, 03:41
Remember the trolley buses in Wimbledon. My aunt explained that unlike trams, they did not have to follow set tracks.

Lantern10
26th Apr 2018, 04:13
When I was a young lad, back in the early 60's, all milk delivery vehicles were electric plus some lorry's in railway goods yards.

gruntie
26th Apr 2018, 07:12
Remember the trolley buses in Wimbledon. My aunt explained that unlike trams, they did not have to follow set tracks.

They used to terminate outside the Town Hall: had a turning loop around Bog Island where the pickups sometimes came off the overhead, resulting in sheets of blue flame (if you were lucky) and a dead bus in the middle of the road, with the conductor getting a long pole out from underneath to re-attach them. Quiet, quick & clean, though: on complicated sections they had light bulbs strung along the overhead so they could be followed in fog.

gruntie
26th Apr 2018, 07:16
When I was a young lad, back in the early 60's, all milk delivery vehicles were electric plus some lorry's in railway goods yards.

ISTR that back then the UK had more electric vehicles on the roads than - something ridiculous, like the rest of the world combined? They were all milk floats.

Pontius Navigator
26th Apr 2018, 07:44
As a small boy the diesel fumes on the corporation motor buses made me feel nauseous, I loved the trolley buses.
And my mother always sat on the cross benches at the back as she wanted to be near the conductor; in the war she once missed her stop at night and had to walk home with me from the terminal. I hated the shaking when the bus stopped.

gruntie
26th Apr 2018, 07:50
Here on the Basque coast (Biarritz/Anglet/Bayonne) a new "Tram'Bus" network is being implemented. The infrastructure requirement has been minimised (no overhead wires) as the new Tram'Bus will be battery powered - this means zero emissions in town. The units recharge at the termini. ISD 2019.

It was tried in London, in the early 50s. With the trams under a death sentence, they thought of using trolley buses through the Kingsway tram tunnel. A special bus was built, with the rear passenger platform accessible from either side, and due to height restrictions or something all tunnel running was on batteries. Poor thing couldn’t get up the ramp at the end.

RedhillPhil
26th Apr 2018, 09:25
When Pa was posted to Sopley in 1966 (we lived in AMQ in the delightfully named Betsy Lane, Bransgore) the yellow trolley buses were still humming between Christchurch and Bournemouth. 20 direct, 21 via Tuckton Bridge. Still can see the conductor hopping off at the roundabout at the top of Christchurch by-pass with a gert long bamboo pole to put the pantograph back on the wires if the driver had gone around too wide.

jolihokistix
26th Apr 2018, 11:09
Talking about pea-soupers, my great uncle (ex-Navy) who lived on Wimbledon Hill loved telling the story of the terrible racket in the garden one winter evening when a double-decker turned into their driveway by mistake, followed by a line of dimly-lit cars.

Lantern10
5th May 2018, 06:22
Winnebago dips it's toe in the waters.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/electric-winnebago-motorhome-maker-launches-electric-rv-25552/

Mining trucks too.

Home (http://edumper.ch/index.php/en/)

G-CPTN
5th May 2018, 12:59
Winnebago dips it's toe in the waters.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/electric-winnebago-motorhome-maker-launches-electric-rv-25552/

Mining trucks too.

Home (http://edumper.ch/index.php/en/)
How would you 'jump-start' an EV with a flat battery?

radeng
7th May 2018, 01:34
I still want to know where all the electricity to power all these electric vehicles is coming from - plus the UK railway electrification demand. European projections for demand for electric cars alone would require some 28 or so Hinckley Point C power stations. Regrettably, the politicians are too dim to do the sums and the civil servants are too busy sucking up to the politicians even if they - being political science and the like graduates - were bright enough to understand the problems.

krismiler
7th May 2018, 02:32
China has electric motorbikes as well which can be quite dangerous as they are totally silent and often ridden on the pavement or wrong side of the road, giving no warning of their approach.

WingNut60
7th May 2018, 03:31
I still want to know where all the electricity to power all these electric vehicles is coming from ........

In the case of the Swiss mining trucks, it's coming from gravity. As close as you'll ever get to perpetual motion.
The trucks are running downhill loaded and return, uphill, empty. Typically that would be about 35 - 40% of loaded weight.
The battery(s) are charged using dynamic braking on the downhill run.

Only useful on site with a downhill haul which is not all that common.
You would need to be very careful with grades when developing your mine plan.

VP959
7th May 2018, 08:35
I still want to know where all the electricity to power all these electric vehicles is coming from - plus the UK railway electrification demand. European projections for demand for electric cars alone would require some 28 or so Hinckley Point C power stations. Regrettably, the politicians are too dim to do the sums and the civil servants are too busy sucking up to the politicians even if they - being political science and the like graduates - were bright enough to understand the problems.

There's loads of spare capacity in the UK generation system to deal with electric cars, if anything they may well help with the existing problem we have when the over-capacity at night takes the wholesale electricity price negative from time to time. The UK grid issues centre around the high ratio between peak demand and off peak demand, which is why suppliers encourage consumers by offering tariffs like Economy 7, with cheap rate electricity during off-peak periods. As most people who use their cars for commuting can just charge overnight, at the off peak rate, it actually helps the grid, especially some of the generators.

The biggest challenge is supplying on-road charging facilities for those who cannot park on their own premises to charge up overnight. Not insurmountable, but it will mean more street furniture. Another feature already being used by some fast charge points at filling stations etc it to install big battery banks, so they can effectively "trickle charge" from the grid at peak demand times, yet still offer a fast charge to any EV that needs a top up.

Urban electric buses are really an ideal application, as few run all night, so the majority can take advantage of the glut of grid capacity overnight to charge at their depots.

Uplinker
7th May 2018, 09:01
China has electric motorbikes as well which can be quite dangerous as they are totally silent and often ridden on the pavement or wrong side of the road, giving no warning of their approach.


They just need to fix an old playing card so it taps the spokes of the back wheel as it goes round. It makes a great sound, and as kids, we used to do this on our push bikes to make them sound like motorbikes !

The householders on the estate must have loved us.........

meadowrun
7th May 2018, 09:02
How long before the lecky consortiums note this new demand timing and poof goes the off-peak rate?

VP959
7th May 2018, 09:29
How long before the lecky consortiums note this new demand timing and poof goes the off-peak rate?

Sooner or later that's going to change, anyway, as at the moment there is a problem with the disparity between the way the wholesale electricity market operates and the way the retail market to consumers operates. Suppliers buy electricity at the half-hourly wholesale price and sell it to consumers at fixed rates for longer periods of time. Suppliers take a guess at what the average wholesale price will be for the next X months and set their selling price to make a profit, based on that, in competition with other suppliers. Smart meters are intended as a way for suppliers to remove most of that risk, by allowing them to set variable tariffs through the day, with consumers being given an indication of the price at any instant, from a very low rate overnight to around 30p/kWh at peak times in the day.

Octane
7th May 2018, 13:34
I have fond memories of riding Trolley buses as a child in Wellington NZ in the early '70s. With sadness I just read they were withdrawn from service barely 6 months ago, 31st October 2017. Doesn't make sense... :sad:

Lantern10
16th May 2018, 23:58
EV range anxiety – is Big Oil ready for the “volt-age” (https://reneweconomy.com.au/ev-range-anxiety-is-big-oil-ready-for-the-volt-age-81963/)
https://reneweconomy.com.au/ev-range-anxiety-is-big-oil-ready-for-the-volt-age-81963/

We’ve all heard the talk about “range anxiety”, the apparently insurmountable fear by potential consumers that an electric vehicle won’t get them from Point A to Point B, and which is supposedly holding back the widespread uptake of EVs.

But what about range anxiety of another kind? Big Oil, it seems, can see the EV revolution on its radar, but still can’t figure out how far it is away, or what it should do about it. Denial is one popular option.

reynoldsno1
17th May 2018, 00:32
I have fond memories of riding Trolley buses as a child in Wellington NZ in the early '70s. With sadness I just read they were withdrawn from service barely 6 months ago, 31st October 2017. Doesn't make sense...
It gets better - they were meant to be replaced with hybrids, or converted to hybrids. The new models failed to meet requirements, so the replacements are diesel powered... The only saving grace is that the almost constant breeze in Wellington does help disperse the fumes ...

MG23
17th May 2018, 01:57
Big Oil, it seems, can see the EV revolution on its radar, but still can’t figure out how far it is away, or what it should do about it.

Well, duh. Since the 'EV revolution' is almost entirely driven by laws and subsidies, no-one can predict what the demand for them will be, since the government is the one making the market.

Look at Tesla sales in Hong Kong, for example. Racing out the door fuelled by massive government subsidies one second, covered in cobwebs in the showroom the next.

Octane
17th May 2018, 07:53
reynoldsno1,

Who would'd known that NZ is blessed with a plentiful supply of "green" Hydro power? And they replace electric with diesel? Madness..
"constant breeze in Wellington"? I remember constant gales! Also the seemingly endless sight (and sound) of Bristol Freighters...