PDA

View Full Version : News Coverage of Toronto Disaster 4/23/18


lomapaseo
23rd Apr 2018, 20:11
News Coverage of Toronto Disaster

I just can't believe the CNN coverage in the last 15 mins. They stick a mike into the face a extremely upset driver in his car who just described in halting sometimes crying detail multiple bodies being dismembered and strewn across the sidewalks and street. The guy they were interviewing clearly was in shock from what he saw and should have been calmed down by professional help before being allowed to continue the interview or drive home.

God help us to absorb this scene

be brave those in Toronto

treadigraph
23rd Apr 2018, 20:21
Toronto collision: Pedestrians injured after van mounts kerb - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43873804)

glad rag
23rd Apr 2018, 20:30
"a sudden accident or a natural catastrophe that causes great damage or loss of life."

Disaster it is not.

Dea Certe
23rd Apr 2018, 21:27
So sad and horrified to hear about this.

Lonewolf_50
23rd Apr 2018, 21:43
At some point, being overly polite is counterproductive (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/toronto-collision-suspect-in-custody-after-van-strikes-multiple-pedestrians/ar-AAwf0mU?ocid=spartandhp). Note the following turn of phrase:
The driver of a white van collided with multiple pedestrians on a busy street north of downtown Toronto on Monday, leaving numerous people injured along a trail of destruction stretching up to a mile, officials said.
Here is some less kind but more accurate language that I'd recommend:
The driver of a white van ran over multiple pedestrians
The driver of a white van hit multiple pedestrians.
Agency is on the white van's driver here.
The headline got it right, however.
Suspect in custody after van strikes multiple pedestrians

My news feeds didn't mention fatalities yet ... fingers crossed.
leaving numerous people injured along a trail of destruction stretching up to a mile, officials said. Hope that "injured" is as bad as this gets.

treadigraph
23rd Apr 2018, 21:55
Sadly, nine dead and sixteen injured according to the BBC.

Lonewolf_50
23rd Apr 2018, 22:21
@treadigraph: well that just sucks. :( (Thanks for the update)
@stig: are you getting ahead of things here, or has an official utterance made a linkage?

Ogre
23rd Apr 2018, 22:44
While it is a terrible thing to have happened, with reputation Canada has for being sensible I assume their media will be as restrained.

obgraham
23rd Apr 2018, 23:05
As of this moment, not a single news source discussing the perp's ethnicity, coloration, religiosity, or lack thereof.

Clearly that means...

BlankBox
24th Apr 2018, 01:43
Van strikes pedestrians near Yonge and Finch | Toronto Sun (http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/multiple-pedestrians-struck-by-van-on-yonge-st)

...picture of the perp in coverage...annnnd... his facebook post


"Private (Recruit) Minassian Infantry 00010, wishing to speak to Sgt 4chan please. C23249161. The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger​!"

...looks like some squirrels are running loose...

meadowrun
24th Apr 2018, 06:21
Family Name : Minassian. Origin: Iran

LGW Vulture
24th Apr 2018, 06:32
Oh God. Canadian Gov stating they're not sure if this is terror related. Well excuse me...
Mowing down innocent civilians on a sidewalk is terror in the extreme. Whether the guy is white and named Smith or brown and named Al Ibrahim. Ffs will someone get a grip? Embarrassing.

Krystal n chips
24th Apr 2018, 07:21
Oh God. Canadian Gov stating they're not sure if this is terror related. Well excuse me...
Mowing down innocent civilians on a sidewalk is terror in the extreme. Whether the guy is white and named Smith or brown and named Al Ibrahim. Ffs will someone get a grip? Embarrassing.

But nowhere near as embarrassing as, say, attempting to make an unsubstantiated correlation between the form of attack and a directly related terrorist attack without waiting for the results of a professional investigation to be made public.

I think this is referred to as being prudent and circumspect and even more so in this case if the quote from Blank Box re the post on FB is taken into consideration at even this early stage.

Of course, this could simply be some form of cryptic code....and nothing to do with severe mental health problems.

But, as this is JB, lets just carry on with the usual diatribes and instant deductions as to the rationale behind this attack without getting overly concerned as to any form of veracity or even remotely considering what other factors could even possibly be involved.

LGW Vulture
24th Apr 2018, 07:51
I think you totally missed my point. But hey, don't let that stand in the way of your totally balanced and highly enlightened, erudite response. :ugh:

Krystal n chips
24th Apr 2018, 08:06
I think you totally missed my point. But hey, don't let that stand in the way of your totally balanced and highly enlightened, erudite response. :ugh:

Oh quite, it was the bit about "terror related " and "Well excuse me " that led to my complete misunderstanding of your point.....very remiss I know.

I would, though, refer you to the comments in this link from the BBC...

Toronto van attack: Suspect quizzed after 10 pedestrians killed - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43875321)

The bit about having no known terror links and his alleged behaviour in particular.....mind you, I bark at our dog from time to time.

DaveReidUK
24th Apr 2018, 08:29
Origin: Iran

Highly unlikely, given his name.

Curious Pax
24th Apr 2018, 08:37
Highly unlikely, given his name.

A quick Google suggests Armenian, which alongside the reports that imply likely mental health issues doesn’t fit the narrative that some here are desperately seeking to push.

meadowrun
24th Apr 2018, 10:40
The implications so far might be that this is a new type of snowflake.
Raised to believe he is a gift to women and should get some (a lot).
Believes he is entitled just because he is a male (cultural). Got turned down by too many western girls and women. Simmering anger at this great injustice to his exalted self, bubble burst.
In a college since 2011 (7 yrs) and his major success so far is a somewhere in development App that would help people find free parking spaces.
Probably lives with and/or is mostly supported by parents at age 27.
All that and given his quick-draw antics in front of a very cool policeman does indicate some form of mental deficiencies.


But all I can see is the demolished front of that van. He didn't just bump people out of the way and some were unfortunately injured.


He mounted the sidewalk and at around 50-60 kph. Rammed into a score of people Knocking them down and then Running them Over,
killing 10 so far, two critical......

clareprop
24th Apr 2018, 11:14
meadowrun - did you read all that somewhere or have you just made it up - the first bit that is?

meadowrun
24th Apr 2018, 11:28
Reports of a Facebk entry moaning about lack of success with women and a conflict with "Chavs and Stacy's" (couldn't get more white/western than that), the praise for that boy serial killer in California who raged about the same things.
Ominous perhaps was his end tag - All Heil...(what'shisnameabove). That possibly implies he's talking to a number of people of like mind. How many Facbk friends did he have? That could imply other similar threats?


CBC has been on in the background once in awhile.
Everyone is working on it quite hard I'm sure....politicians have been moving lips but no substance whatsoever.


(does that cover the first bit?)

meadowrun
24th Apr 2018, 12:23
In the video of his takedown, the van was stopped, but operable(?) on the sidewalk in front of yellow signs with what looks like black Arabic lettering.
Can anyone translate?

jolihokistix
24th Apr 2018, 12:40
meadowrun, at 1:00 here: Toronto van attack: Suspect quizzed after 10 pedestrians killed - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43875321)

meadowrun
24th Apr 2018, 13:27
Yes-but what does it say? Store? Shop?. ?.

jolihokistix
24th Apr 2018, 13:29
"No Stopping Here"

42go
24th Apr 2018, 13:55
LGW Vulture - I would not waste any more electrons on someone whose understanding of the English language is demonstrably deficient.

419
24th Apr 2018, 14:33
But nowhere near as embarrassing as, say, attempting to make an unsubstantiated correlation between the form of attack and a directly related terrorist attack without waiting for the results of a professional investigation to be made public.

Who made any "unsubstantiated correlations"?
LGW Vulture stated that the incident was terror related and surely by intentionally driving a vehicle into innocent pedestrians, your aim must be to kill, injure and terrorise them.

To be a terrorist related incident, the aims must be politically or religiously motivated but it can be still be terror related even if the person committing the acts has no political or religious reasons.

If I was to telephone a bomb threat to my place of work in order to scare those working there (in other words, to terrorise them), how can what I did not be terror related? even though I'm not a terrorist by the generally accepted definition of the word?

clareprop
24th Apr 2018, 16:12
If I was to telephone a bomb threat to my place of work in order to scare those working there (in other words, to terrorise them), how can what I did not be terror related? even though I'm not a terrorist by the generally accepted definition of the word?

Probably because you're splitting hairs. For instance, the word 'prat' means bottom of the meadow in old English but the generally accepted definition is that of a sanctimonious idiot.

419
24th Apr 2018, 16:53
Probably because you're splitting hairs. For instance, the word 'prat' means bottom of the meadow in old English but the generally accepted definition is that of a sanctimonious idiot.

What is old English for someone who doesn't have any valid points to refute an argument so resorts to thinly veiled insults instead?
Why do you consider what I stated to be "splitting hairs"?

The word "terrorise" (or terrorize) can have a specific meaning:
Create and maintain a state of extreme fear and distress in (someone); fill with terror.
‘he used his private army to terrorize the population’
‘the union said staff would not be terrorized into ending their strike’


and terrorism:
The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
‘the fight against terrorism’
‘international terrorism’

So to anyone who understands the correct use of the English language, you can terrorise someone without being a terrorist.

DaveReidUK
24th Apr 2018, 18:18
So to anyone who understands the correct use of the English language, you can terrorise someone without being a terrorist.

Indeed you can, that much should be obvious.

AFAIK, the Canadian government didn't use the T word, they simply announced that the attack did not appear to have any national security implications.

lomapaseo
24th Apr 2018, 19:07
AFAIK, the Canadian government didn't use the T word, they simply announced that the attack did not appear to have any national security implications.

Hmmm, what does it take to have national security implications?

sounds like some of our claim of racist laws or sexual attacks, left in the eyes of the beholder

er340790
24th Apr 2018, 19:21
Wow. That police officer being able to arrest the perp without using his firearm, despite the perp pointing an object at him and claiming he had a gun deserves a bloody big gong.

Sheer PROFESSIONALISM and BRAVERY!!!

Sir, I take my hat off to you. Well done!

spInY nORmAn
24th Apr 2018, 19:21
More details regarding the suspect's Facebook posts (and possible motives) here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-facebook-post-connected-to-suspect-in-van-rampage-cites-incel/

mike current
24th Apr 2018, 19:22
Hmmm, what does it take to have national security implications?

Links to a network? (By the way this is just my guess).

A terrorist acting alone vs A terrorist acting as part of a network are both tragic and terrifying, but they have very different implications in terms of investigation, prevention and national security.

You can't prevent the attack that's already happened, but you could possibly stop the next one.

Lonewolf_50
24th Apr 2018, 19:24
I reject the idea that a multiple homicide is by default terrorism. Sometimes, it's just killing.
TORONTO — The 25-year-old suspect who plowed a van into a crowded Toronto sidewalk was ordered held Tuesday on 10 counts of murder and 13 of attempted murder as Canadian authorities and the public sought to make sense of one of the deadliest mass killings in the country's modern history.
Alek Minassian showed little emotion as he made a brief appearance in a Toronto courtroom in a white jumpsuit and handcuffs. The judge ordered him detained without bond and scheduled the next hearing for May 10. Why add baggage to a not very complicated case of multiple vehicular homicide, attempted homicide, and mayhem?
(Caveat: US and Canadian laws likely use a few different terms of art. I am relying on what I remember from legal stuff a few years ago and discussions with a few cops on this case, but it's with a US PoV).

ExXB
24th Apr 2018, 19:37
Wow. That police officer being able to arrest the perp without using his firearm, despite the perp pointing an object at him and claiming he had a gun deserves a bloody big gong.

Sheer PROFESSIONALISM and BRAVERY!!!

Sir, I take my hat off to you. Well done!

Couldn’t agree more. Yet, according to the BBC, some US gun ‘experts’ are critical of the actions. One even suggested it wasn’t really bravery or professional, but the cop just froze. Despite the evidence.

Different culture, I suppose, but perhaps they should keep their mouths shut and be thought to be fools ...

Curious Pax
24th Apr 2018, 20:04
Incredible quote from a US professor:

Michael Lyman, professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Columbia College of Missouri, who told the BBC that the officer may have had a "duty" to kill the suspect.
"Assuming the suspect is holding a gun and pointing it toward officers, it is concerning that the officer is not engaging the suspect with deadly force," he said.
How often are US police killed on duty?

Professor Lyman said that the officer might not have opened fire out of fear of public criticism after the event.
"People died as a result of the suspect's actions. Can we assume that the officer knew this? If so, this changes things a bit in that the level of public threat is higher. Under this circumstance, it would seem that the officer had a 'duty' to respond with deadly force - assuming what he was holding was a firearm," he said.

Beggars belief that anyone has a ‘duty’ to kill anyone per se. To save lives of people you are protecting then a duty to protect lives (including your own) by shooting is fair enough. In this case rightly or wrongly the cop decided that he could make the arrest - if he wasn’t sure that what the guy was holding was not a gun then he was close to the fine line between incredibly brave and incredibly stupid. I wasn’t there, and neither was the professor, so I’m happy to accept the cop’s judgement.

tdracer
24th Apr 2018, 20:45
Incredible quote from a US professor:

Beggars belief that anyone has a ‘duty’ to kill anyone per se. To save lives of people you are protecting then a duty to protect lives (including your own) by shooting is fair enough. In this case rightly or wrongly the cop decided that he could make the arrest - if he wasn’t sure that what the guy was holding was not a gun then he was close to the fine line between incredibly brave and incredibly stupid. I wasn’t there, and neither was the professor, so I’m happy to accept the cop’s judgement.

Not sure if the decision not to use deadly force was bravery or foolish (perhaps a bit of both?).
However he'd probably have saved the Canadian taxpayers a great deal of money if he'd used deadly force (and precious few would have been critical of that decision).

Zombywoof
24th Apr 2018, 22:24
Yes-but what does it say? Store? Shop?. ?.North side of Poyntz Ave, just west of Yonge St.

http://img150.imagevenue.com/loc350/th_603934595_screenshot_122_350lo.jpg (http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=603934595_screenshot_122_350lo.jpg)

{EDIT} I posted a 1920x1080 photo, I have no idea why the link won't click through. But the English signs on the storefront say, "Money Exchange".

Zombywoof
25th Apr 2018, 02:16
Not sure if the decision not to use deadly force was bravery or foolish (perhaps a bit of both?).The cop had limited options anyway. Although it's clear he was close enough to see the guy was pretending his cellphone was a gun, and he showed great restraint, I'm pretty sure the officer was worried about where his bullets would go if he missed. Look at the photo I posted. The guy was in front of a wall of glass windows. If the cop fired and missed, it could have been disastrous.

However he'd probably have saved the Canadian taxpayers a great deal of money if he'd used deadly force (and precious few would have been critical of that decision).Yeah, where's officer James Forcillo when you need him. (sorry, that one's not really very funny).

Hempy
25th Apr 2018, 04:31
As of this moment, not a single news source discussing the perp's ethnicity, coloration, religiosity, or lack thereof.

Clearly that means...

What, exactly?

obgraham
25th Apr 2018, 04:48
What, exactly?
You’re a bright guy, Hempy....fill in whatever answer you like.

clareprop
25th Apr 2018, 05:09
Toronto van attack: Alek Minassian praised 'incel' killer - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43883052)

Sometimes, you have to accept there are people out there driven purely by warped thoughts. This sick individual has copied recent terrorist actions as a method for killing people but that doesn't make him a terrorist any more than others, who use semi-automatic military-based weapons to mass murder, can be called soldiers.

arketip
25th Apr 2018, 08:57
You’re a bright guy, Hempy....fill in whatever answer you like.

Armenian, white, Christian?

Carbon Bootprint
25th Apr 2018, 18:43
The cop had limited options anyway. Although it's clear he was close enough to see the guy was pretending his cellphone was a gun, and he showed great restraint, I'm pretty sure the officer was worried about where his bullets would go if he missed. Look at the photo I posted. The guy was in front of a wall of glass windows. If the cop fired and missed, it could have been disastrous.No doubt, Constable Ken Lam showed tremendous restraint given the situation. It might be his natural demeanor, but Toronto cops are also given yearly courses in de-escalation. This training was a response to the Forcillo/Yatim incident in 2013. The New York Times pieced together several videos taken by bystanders to dissect the specific steps he took to bring about a peaceful resolution. These included turning off his siren and holstering his weapon when it became clear the perp was attempting "suicide by cop."

When Toronto Suspect Said "Kill Me," an Officer Put Away His Gun (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/world/americas/toronto-van-police-constable-lam.html)

Chronus
25th Apr 2018, 20:10
The news reports so far suggest this chap was some kind of a sex starved fruit cake who joined some sort of club for sex starved fruit cakes. I expect it will be a field day for shrinks to work out where the nuts came from and how many it took to make such a fruit cake, pay a visit or two to Amsterdam and come out with a reccomendation that prostitution be legalised in Canada.
I wonder if in Canada they also cannot afford nut houses and fruit cakes roam freely as they do in the UK .

Carbon Bootprint
25th Apr 2018, 20:24
The news reports so far suggest this chap was some kind of a sex starved fruit cake who joined some sort of club for sex starved fruit cakes.Yes, they call themselves incels (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=incel), for involuntary celibates.

Hempy
25th Apr 2018, 20:34
Yes, they call themselves incels (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=incel), for involuntary celibates.

You learn something new every day. I guess that’s what obgraham was on about :ok:

No wonder he couldn’t get laid tbh.

Ogre
25th Apr 2018, 22:59
Cases like this make me wonder if this is one of the negative effects of the internet. At one time or another most people are "involuntary celibate", I was myself on a number of occasions when I had a low point in my social life with the opposite gender. However with the freedom of the internet to reach out and contact people of a similar state it doesn't take long for this wide spread new group to organise themselves.

Or is it more a case of people have this mindset where they expect something and don't understand why they can't have it, therefore they demand their "rights" as they see it?