Women of the cold war

[wub]

Interesting feature on BBC News website

The British women who secretly served in the Cold War - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-43333082)

[ORAC]

What an appallingly ignorant confusion of the roles of the ROTOR system and ROC.

For information the display in the well was produced by the Kelvin Hughes PDU system (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/mrs/mrs.htm). It was automatically developed and projected upwards with a 1 minute delay and the plotters then pushed their blocks around on top of the radar “blips”, negating the need for local tellers sitting at consoles. That may seem an excessive delay, but it was faster than manual telling which still took place from the remote radar heads at the R1 and R2 bunkers to the MRS in the R3 bunkers.

Ironically it was the plotting table which was still in place in the well at Buchan twenty years later and still used as a back-up to the GL161 computerised system.

Radar - Subterranea Britannica (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/category/radar)

Subterranea Britannica: Research Study Group: Sites: RAF Holmpton GCI Rotor Radar Station (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/h/holmpton/)

And no discussion of women the RAF ground environment can ever neglect to mention Air Commodore “Aunt” Joan Hopkins.

https://youtu.be/SI36_iEtOS8

[roving]

My step-mother was a flying officer at Holmpton in the early 1960's.

[air pig]

What an appallingly ignorant confusion of the roles of the ROTOR system and ROC.

For information the display in the well was produced by the Kelvin Hughes PDU system (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/mrs/mrs.htm). It was automatically developed and projected upwards with a 1 minute delay and the plotters then pushed their blocks around on top of the radar “blips”, negating the need for local tellers sitting at consoles. That may seem an excessive delay, but it was faster than manual telling which still took place from the remote radar heads at the R1 and R2 bunkers to the MRS in the R40 bunkers.

Ironically it was the plotting table which was still in place in the well at Buchan twenty years later and still used as a back-up to the GL161 computerised system.

Radar - Subterranea Britannica (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/category/radar)

Subterranea Britannica: Research Study Group: Sites: RAF Holmpton GCI Rotor Radar Station (http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/h/holmpton/)

And no discussion of women the RAF ground environment can ever neglect to mention Air Commodore “Aunt” Joan Hopkins.

https://youtu.be/SI36_iEtOS8

Or Air Commodore Jayne Millington.

[Wander00]

Aunty Joan - best Boss I ever had. What a top person.

[langleybaston]

They also served ...............

The thousands of women [I prefer ladies but............] who died a little death every time the hooter went. Was it a Minival? A Maxeval? TACEVAL? ACTIVE EDGE?

Or had the balloon gone up?

The wives in BFG were advised to have a suitcase packed against the day that the jolly green coaches headed for the Channel Ports.

The Ladies of the Cold War!



PS sorry that I am not knowledgeable enough on Bomber Command alert names.

[NutLoose]

They used to call one of the WAAF's I knew, the three minute warning...... but I do not know why ;)

The wives in BFG were advised to have a suitcase packed against the day that the jolly green coaches headed for the Channel Ports.Didn't they actually try that out at Gut on one exercise and the local German population panicked and started to follow them?

[Linedog]

They used to call one of the WAAF's I knew, the three minute warning...... but I do not know why ;)

Didn't they actually try that out at Gut on one exercise and the local German population panicked and started to follow them?

That happened at Laarbruch, (Weeze). :-)

[NutLoose]

Thanks for the correction :)

[teeteringhead]

Let's not forget the "wives of"...... not all would be packed off westwards.

There were lists of those with useful skills - medical that I knew of - doctors, nurses and paramedics, who would NOT be going home......

Anf then there was the list of pets ...... who weren't going home for slightly different reasons!

[Basil]

And don't forget the wives and mothers who had the black saloon turn up at the door.

[4mastacker]

......................Didn't they actually try that out at Gut on one exercise and the local German population panicked and started to follow them?

Yes, happened in the early 70s and caused a bit of a stir!! After that, practice evacuations did not involve the off-station MQs and the "evacuation" consisted of a few wagons doing a quick circuit of the countryside via Marienfeld, Niehorst and Blankenhagen. I was a lowly SAC at the time and the word was there were a few interviews without coffee down at The Big House after the dust had settled.

[fantom]

Wimmin? Cold War?

You don't know my first wife.

[kaitakbowler]

Thanks for the correction :)

Was also tried at Gut, coaches rolled up to the Marienfeld quarters, cue chaos. (IIRC!!) it was 34ish years ago.

PM

[4mastacker]

Was also tried at Gut, coaches rolled up to the Marienfeld quarters, cue chaos. (IIRC!!) it was 34ish years ago.

PM

Good grief. Sounds like history repeating itself. I'm pretty sure the first evacuation that excited the local population was in 1969/70 - the brain cells are a bit fuzzy on the exact date. I do remember on subsequent exercises, when it came to the evacuation phase, it was CPX'd to avoid repeating the previous embarrassment. After a few more exercises, the di-staff got a bit braver and a few representative vehicles were allowed to do a quick circuit of the local countryside.

IIRC, prior notice of station exercises was published in the local press to prevent another panic.

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder what local populations thought with sirens going off. At Warrington in particular the village was cheek by jowl with the quarters and got the full sound effects. Generation and dispersal was deadly serious and conducted with complete news blackout, no friendly PRO calming the local populace.

[langleybaston]

I was at Gutersloh with my wife and 4 childers when the excitement as described above was on. I am unsure if it was separate from, or intrinsic to, an evaluation.

If the latter, then 19 squadron scrambling would have set nerves jangling: the locals were accustomed to a 2-ship, but big fly for survivals were unusual. Noisy Fun though.

[ShyTorque]

The callout siren for Gutersloh's MQs at Harsewinkel was actually the town's Fire station siren. The locals were remarkably tolerant in view of the fact that the damned thing was often going off at all hours of the night.

The deployment kit was always either being packed, unpacked or actually in use. Some happy days, but it did all get a bit extreme at times and I'm very glad I'll never have to wear an AR5 respirator or charcoal suit again.

[teeteringhead]

I'll never have to wear an AR5 respirator or charcoal suit again.

Never say never Shy mon brave ......

...... do you ever visit Salisbury.........?

[TBM-Legend]

I always found the Cold War when I came home after a mess function at 3am!

[Danny42C]

ORAC (#1),

Some twenty years before these events, there was a body of civilian ladies who were giving sterling service in our defence in the Cold War. I refer, of course, to the R.Aux.A.F. Fighter Control Units which served up to its disbandment in 1957 (?)

It was my privilege to serve as Adjutant of one of these (3608 F.C.U. RAF Thornaby) as Adjutant from 1951 to 1954. We recruited and trained local girls as part-time WRAF Radar Operators and Fighter Plotters to operate the old manual system plus a small number of others in various ancillary trades. My HQ, an old Coastal Command Operations block, was ideal for conversion into a simulated Control Room set-up: our "Radar Operators" worked in cubicles apart with radar screens on which the technicians could produce life-like "blips" ad lib.

As in "real life", each "operator" was connected throuh headsets to her "plotter" in the Control Room, so our establishment of 70 was formed into 35 "teams" - the pairs often formed frienships for life. After basic training in our "simulator", about half would be bussed out every Sunday morning, to go down our own "hole" at Seaton Snook (Co.Durham), returning in the afternoon. There they would work with the regulars in Sector Control, often controlling the Vampires of 608 (North Riding) Squadron, R.Aux.A.F. with whom they shared the airfield and who allowed me to fly with them time to time. I recall one memorable occasion when I flew as wingman to F/O Mike Beavis (their Training Officer), better known now as Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Beavis (Retd).

Additionally, we had a handful of trainee Fighter Control Officers, all ex-war and not one without a DFC or a DFM, except my excellent Auxiliary Wg Cdr CO - he was an AG with the DSO (you don't see many of those). These, of course, learned by "sitting next to Nellie" - the regular FCs.

The system was perfect, if the balloon went up, all our shop and office girls, check-outs and hairdressers etc. would be called straight in. They were already in the Service, medically inspected, fully kitted, going to a place which they knew well, to do a job for which they'd been trained with people they were familiar with already. Many of the "extras" actresses in postwar "Battle of Britain" type films are ex-WR(Aux)AF, look for the "A" under the bird on the shoulder.

All gone now, of course.

Danny.

[ShyTorque]

Never say never Shy mon brave ......

...... do you ever visit Salisbury.........?

Strangely enough, no! :O

[Tankertrashnav]

Fascinating Danny, I had never heard of this setup before. Apart from learning about these girls, I'd love to know the story of the AG with a DSO - as you say not many of those!

[roving]

Tt, four minutes in you well see 'these girls;.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2hvGjZRFmQ

[ORAC]

Reaching back into my memory, the CO at RAF Bawdsey in 1974 when I did my FC training was Wg Cdr E R Lacey DSO OBE - who was proud of the fact that he was not only an Air Gunner, but still getting flying pay.

Is it the same person Danny?

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/LaceyER.htm

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1943/1943%20-%202497.PDF

90 Sqn operations logs/summary of events for the period can be found a5 the link below. Unfortunately the images won’t display properly on my iPad. Intrigued to see that, during the period in question, the Sqn was operating the Flying Fortress Mk1 on daylight bomber raids over Germany. Didn’t know the RAF did that.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/D8455347

[bosnich71]

The AVM in the photo looks like Ivor Broom.

[Wander00]

Trouble is there are two threads on the same topic, could they not be amalgamated. The "other" thread has already done the "Ivor Broom" bit

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Roving!

[Danny42C]

TTN,

Years ago I was able to trace David Brown, DSO on Google, but cannot find him now. I learned that he'd done two operational tours as an AG, one in the UK (Ludford Magna , I think), and one in N.Africa. He was heavily involved in contra - intelligence radio work and was a Squadron Gunnery Leader, but what exactly he got his 'gong' for I do not know.

Of course the iron rule was - and still is - 'Never ask, never tell'. So I could never ask him.

Danny.

[NutLoose]

The callout siren for Gutersloh's MQs at Harsewinkel was actually the town's Fire station siren. The locals were remarkably tolerant in view of the fact that the damned thing was often going off at all hours of the night.

The deployment kit was always either being packed, unpacked or actually in use. Some happy days, but it did all get a bit extreme at times and I'm very glad I'll never have to wear an AR5 respirator or charcoal suit again.

Go on.... you know you want too

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aircrew-Oxygen-Respirator-Full-Face-Mask-Head-Hood-Ex-Raf-Mod-Gas-Mask-NBC-AR5/123101184347?hash=item1ca967015b:g:JCMAAOSwUwFZ7OBm

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/nbc-suit-size-large-olive-green-New/323220541875?hash=item4b417211b3:g:1DwAAOSwRChalpDi

[roving]

Go on.... you know you want too

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aircrew-Oxygen-Respirator-Full-Face-Mask-Head-Hood-Ex-Raf-Mod-Gas-Mask-NBC-AR5/123101184347?hash=item1ca967015b:g:JCMAAOSwUwFZ7OBm


Darth Vader ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Danny. I've never seen an AG with a DSO but we had a wing commander at Catterick who wore the ribbon of the MM. He had won it as a corporal in the Royal Marines at Anzio, remustered to RAF Regiment after the war and was subsequently commissioned. He had a face like a burglar and must have been a handy bloke to have beside you at Anzio!

[ORAC]

Danny. Three full operational tours - that’s worth a DSO on its own on bombers.....

Wing Commander David Brown D.S.O., Air Gunner, 75 (NZ), 70, OTU 21 and 101 Squadrons (RAF) (http://www.ww2rafcollection.co.uk/RAF_Collection/Brown.html)

RAF Log Book (Brown DSO) (http://www.ww2rafcollection.co.uk/RAF_Collection/RAF_Log_Book_%28Brown_DSO%29.html)

Wing Commander David Brown D.S.O., Air Gunner, 75 (NZ), 70, OTU 21 and 101 Squadrons (RAF)

David enjoyed a distinguished career in the RAF, rising to the rank of Wing Commander. For his service during the War, David was awarded the Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.) - an award second only to the Victoria Cross. His citation is found below in the footnote.

The site photo album features excerpts from David’s two flying log books and photographs from his own wartime album.

FOOTNOTE
Citation for Flt Lt D. BROWN, R.A.F.V.R. No 101 Sqn. 1945

Flt Lt Brown has completed his third tour of operational duty as squadron gunnery leader. His targets have included objectives both in Germany, and the Middle East. On one occasion he destroyed two Italian aircraft during one operational sortie. His courage, determination and efficiency have in no small measure contributed to the success of the squadron.

[ShyTorque]

Go on.... you know you want too

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aircrew-Oxygen-Respirator-Full-Face-Mask-Head-Hood-Ex-Raf-Mod-Gas-Mask-NBC-AR5/123101184347?hash=item1ca967015b:g:JCMAAOSwUwFZ7OBm

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/nbc-suit-size-large-olive-green-New/323220541875?hash=item4b417211b3:g:1DwAAOSwRChalpDi

I hope I never even see one again! Having spent three days taking part in a field trial which involved living, briefing (or attempting to brief) a formation task, flying (and being required to try to sleep) in an AR5 connected to a "Hissing handbag" - No, really I don't want to! The aircrew NBC gear consisted of charcoal underwear suit and socks, which in turn needed full long johns and long sleeved vest under them and aircrew flying gear on top. Great stuff in the hot German summers....

That one has the drinking bottle mod fitted - ours never did have anything so sophisticated - it had a simple plastic straw arrangement instead. Sometimes when trying to get a drink through it you almost managed to miss poking yourself in the eye.

[ExAscoteer]

I just about had the screaming hab-dabs upon seeing the AR5 again!

[Danny42C]

ORAC (#32),

Thanks ! A quiet, self-effacing man, I never had a cross word with him all the years I had at Thornaby, and the only time he was angry with me, I richly deserved it.

Middlesbrough has a very large Irish immigrant population from the 19th Century; this was reflected in a high proportion of RC among our troops on parade. If the command : "Fall out the Roman Catholics and Jews" had been strictly obeyed, the poor (C.of E.) padre would've been left talking only to the small handful. which were left.

Accordingly, a sort of unspoken compromise was reached; on the command, only David (representing the Jews), and I , his Adjutant, (representing the RCs) fell out, marched smartly to the rear of the parade and took up position with our backs to it , to signify that we were taking no part in it while the "God-botherer" well, "bothered God," and then fell back in in front on command..

I suppose I shall be held responsible for any damage done to the immortal souls of my co-religionists in exposing them to "the services or prayers of a false religion", but I'll take a chance on that. (David can make his own arrangements with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Trouble is there are two threads on the same topic, could they not be amalgamated. The "other" thread has already done the "Ivor Broom" bit
use the warning triangle and ask the Mods to merge

[Pontius Navigator]

I just about had the screaming hab-dabs upon seeing the AR5 again!
I have an AR5, brilliant bit of kit. Last summer Mrs PN moved the BBQ when she didn't ought and a screw on the lid hinge dropped off. As the BBQ was hot i couldn't stand over it to fix the bolt. Donned AR5 and breathed cool clean air. Perfect :)

Oops, age, I meant S10, was fortunate enough to never see an AR5 in the flesh.

[ricardian]

I hope I never even see one again! Having spent three days taking part in a field trial which involved living, briefing (or attempting to brief) a formation task, flying (and being required to try to sleep) in an AR5 connected to a "Hissing handbag" - No, really I don't want to! The aircrew NBC gear consisted of charcoal underwear suit and socks, which in turn needed full long johns and long sleeved vest under them and aircrew flying gear on top. Great stuff in the hot German summers....
That one has the drinking bottle mod fitted - ours never did have anything so sophisticated - it had a simple plastic straw arrangement instead. Sometimes when trying to get a drink through it you almost managed to miss poking yourself in the eye.

I could never take things seriously after the panic before deployment to Anguila (or was it Antigua) from Tangmere in the late 1960s. We were all kitted out with the usual stuff but stores didn't have a tin hat in my size so they gave me a deficiency chit which I carefully pinned under my beret and hoped the enemy would understand. In the end I didn't go because I got a long-term detachment to 24 (Air Portable) Brigade - which was fun (at times)