Moving to Australia and finding flying work

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

Hi, everybody!

I've finally hit a wall of anonymous lurking, and figured I'd ask for some local advice on the topic of transplanting myself from Canada to Australia. It's very likely I'll be moving down before the year's end, and between license conversions, relocation, and the intricacies of the Australian job hunt, I could use some ideas.

Without further adorable, here's my grab-bag of questions (oh, and I should also mention, I am coming in on a permanent resident visa, so, the right to work issues should not be a factor)

1) Having received a rather detailed breakdown from CLARC, it seems like the license conversion is going to be a big bug bear. To get my Canadian CPL (with ME and Group 1 IR), it sounds like I'd need a CPL conversion exam, human factors, and instrument rating written, as well as CPL ride and a ME IFR ride. Is there anything missing from that list? (Something that might be obvious to someone that might train in Oz, but not so much for an outsider) Does anyone have study tips or resources (or a pointer to a forum on here I may be missing?)

2) While I'm not going to call myself an experienced pilot by any stretch, I do currently have over 1000 hours, most of which have been on small turbine planes. Given that, and the typical posted requirements for pretty much every major for an Australian license prior to application, is there any sensible reason for me to even try sending resumes in before the move? (My expectation is to have the conversion done within a couple of months of moving, money being the biggest bottleneck)

3) Even with the license conversion done, but with no in-country references to think of, how much would that affect my application in general? I can definitely provide chief pilot, captains, and more as references, but all of them would be back in Canada, which is annoying to schedule conversations with at the best of times)

4) In all likelihood, I'd be limited to the Melbourne and area for flight training. How much difference is there between the training operators in the area? Is there any that may specialize in conversions or have more reasonable rates (while still maintaining the fleet and being in business)? The last time I visited, the 250$+ per hour - without instructor - for a single was a bit of an eye-opener (and eye-waterer)

5) Given that my 1000 hours of experience has mostly been in two-crew environments as an FO, and assuming the issues above are sorted, what are your thoughts on whether trying for the majors or staying with the local flyers would be a better bet for finding work in MEL? Given all my trawling through here and elsewhere, I'm leaning towards the majors, but I honestly don't have as much info as I'd like on the smaller operators there (being all the way on the other side of the world isn't helping me in that regard)

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

PS: Before I make the leap, is there any particular Aussie aviation lingo I'd need to know? Considering the fact I spent the last couple of trips amusing everyone with my accent, I figure blowing people's minds with local sayings in it might make for amusing introductions!

Cheers

[Brakerider]

Hi, everybody!

I've finally hit a wall of anonymous lurking, and figured I'd ask for some local advice on the topic of transplanting myself from Canada to Australia. It's very likely I'll be moving down before the year's end, and between license conversions, relocation, and the intricacies of the Australian job hunt, I could use some ideas.

Without further adorable, here's my grab-bag of questions (oh, and I should also mention, I am coming in on a permanent resident visa, so, the right to work issues should not be a factor)

1) Having received a rather detailed breakdown from CLARC, it seems like the license conversion is going to be a big bug bear. To get my Canadian CPL (with ME and Group 1 IR), it sounds like I'd need a CPL conversion exam, human factors, and instrument rating written, as well as CPL ride and a ME IFR ride. Is there anything missing from that list? (Something that might be obvious to someone that might train in Oz, but not so much for an outsider) Does anyone have study tips or resources (or a pointer to a forum on here I may be missing?)

2) While I'm not going to call myself an experienced pilot by any stretch, I do currently have over 1000 hours, most of which have been on small turbine planes. Given that, and the typical posted requirements for pretty much every major for an Australian license prior to application, is there any sensible reason for me to even try sending resumes in before the move? (My expectation is to have the conversion done within a couple of months of moving, money being the biggest bottleneck)

3) Even with the license conversion done, but with no in-country references to think of, how much would that affect my application in general? I can definitely provide chief pilot, captains, and more as references, but all of them would be back in Canada, which is annoying to schedule conversations with at the best of times)

4) In all likelihood, I'd be limited to the Melbourne and area for flight training. How much difference is there between the training operators in the area? Is there any that may specialize in conversions or have more reasonable rates (while still maintaining the fleet and being in business)? The last time I visited, the 250$+ per hour - without instructor - for a single was a bit of an eye-opener (and eye-waterer)

5) Given that my 1000 hours of experience has mostly been in two-crew environments as an FO, and assuming the issues above are sorted, what are your thoughts on whether trying for the majors or staying with the local flyers would be a better bet for finding work in MEL? Given all my trawling through here and elsewhere, I'm leaning towards the majors, but I honestly don't have as much info as I'd like on the smaller operators there (being all the way on the other side of the world isn't helping me in that regard)

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

PS: Before I make the leap, is there any particular Aussie aviation lingo I'd need to know? Considering the fact I spent the last couple of trips amusing everyone with my accent, I figure blowing people's minds with local sayings in it might make for amusing introductions!

Cheers

With those hours (and right to work) get in touch with Qantaslink. With your multi-crew turbine background they would likely be quite interested and may even help out with the licence conversion.

[Bend alot]

More out of interest can you expand on the Permanent Resident visa status?

As for jobs, probably a few options - at 1000 hrs watch bonding does not hold a bad job too long, might be best to find your feet first in Oz.

[mattyj]

It’s been a long time since I looked into it but can’t Canadians convert licenses simply to an FAA license and then isn’t there a simpler conversion process from FAA to CASA?

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

With those hours (and right to work) get in touch with Qantaslink. With your multi-crew turbine background they would likely be quite interested and may even help out with the licence conversion.

Right now, I'm a bit loathe to apply, given that I've already got a "thanks, but no thanks" response from them. Granted, this was to an application that I sent prior to the visa being issued, but, considering nothing beyond my right to work has changed, I don't know if that would end in a different way.

Also, while I've been doing the email route, I wonder if giving HR a call might be more instructive...

More out of interest can you expand on the Permanent Resident visa status?

Sorry, that was a bit of Canadian immigration lingo (because every country just has to be "different" and "unique" with theirs). Basically, at present I have one of the 300 class visas, which will be converted to one of the 800 class by the time I move. There is a bit of an annoying bureaucracy treadmill for all of the visa changes, but, in effect, all the visas (including the current one) allow me to work in Australia.

As for jobs, probably a few options - at 1000 hrs watch bonding does not hold a bad job too long, might be best to find your feet first in Oz.

This is why I'm realistically looking to spread out the conversion process a bit. I could potentially have everything done within two weeks, but I'd rather take a bit of time to get used to as many of the ideosyncracies as I can first (which, in oddness terms, I'd currently rank as 1-lingo, 2-wrong side driving, and 3-everything else).

Also, speaking of lingo... "Watch bonding"?

It’s been a long time since I looked into it but can’t Canadians convert licenses simply to an FAA license and then isn’t there a simpler conversion process from FAA to CASA?

Unfortunately not. I looked into it, the FAA conversion process is similar enough to CASA. This is why I figure I'm better off just doing the one process rather than 2. If for nothing else then not having to pay Uncle Sam for the privilege of getting a license I have no intention of using.

[AmarokGTI]

1) Having received a rather detailed breakdown from CLARC, it seems like the license conversion is going to be a big bug bear. To get my Canadian CPL (with ME and Group 1 IR), it sounds like I'd need a CPL conversion exam, human factors, and instrument rating written, as well as CPL ride and a ME IFR ride.


PS: Before I make the leap, is there any particular Aussie aviation lingo I'd need to know? Considering the fact I spent the last couple of trips amusing everyone with my accent, I figure blowing people's minds with local sayings in it might make for amusing introductions!

Cheers

You’ll find people here call flights “flights” not “rides”

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

You’ll find people here call flights “flights” not “rides”

Fascinating. The typical way to call them here is a "ride" for any sort of examination (ie: PPL, CPL, type rating, etc), and "flight" for any non-exam flying (ie, "I just did a flight from Toronto to Vancouver"). Is there not a difference like that in Australia?

[Bend alot]

Bonding as in adding every cent of training and associated costs and making you stay a long time or pay it all back.


Best wishes on the up coming wedding.


But it will probably be a long time till you are on a Permanent Resident visa, the PMV is a temporary visa (full work rights). Processing to the 820 has blown out recently as has the 801. The 801 is the Permanent resident visa.


So you might find yourself on a Bridging Visa A for some time. Apart from the fact the BVA does not have travel rights, some (not aviation specifically) people have said it was extremely hard to get work on the BVA and similar on the 820. This was mostly because employers don't understand the Partner Visa process.


That's just some info that might help you prepare.

[Aloha_KSA]

Have you gotten your ARN yet? That's the first thing to do. https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/arn-applications

Rex might be a good match for you, depending on where you plan to live. You might be able to go straight into a Dash-8, though. Have you looked here yet?: https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/?categoryId=0&page=0&search=

You might like to take a test prep course. You don't have to, of course, but I wanted the practice questions. Not sure what CPL requirements are, but I think they are basically the same tests. Irex, Air Law, Human factors. If you're doing your CPL exams, maybe knock out the ATPL ones at the same time, when it's all fresh in your mind? You'll have a year or two to get the ATPL check flights done. Then you'll have a "frozen" ATPL to take to a prospective employer.

The IREX was pretty tough. Typically in Australia, flying around 300+ days a year in VMC with no icing to speak of, I think the pilots and examiners get bored and spend their days thinking of new ways to take the fun out of flying.

Sample question: "If you cross the GFY NDB at 0123Z and fly for 45 minutes and find yourself 6.7 miles south of where you think you should be, how many degrees off course are you?" Me: "If you find yourself flying around in a $200,000 airplane without a $400 GPS, relying on 50 year old navigation technology that is systematically being decommissioned, how much of a tight arse are you?" But it is what it is, and you'll need to master those questions for the IREX.

Sample examination questions and more info: https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/standard-page/exams

I have looked at a few of this fellow's videos, and IMHO he seems to have a pretty good grasp on study techniques. Definitely worth looking into: https://www.pilotpracticeexams.com/membership-join/

I found these practice quizzes, as well: Practice Exams & Quizes - Airborne Aviation (http://www.airborne-aviation.com.au/resources/practice-exams-and-quizzes.php) .

Bob Tait is the John and Martha King of Australia. https://bobtait.com.au/

I did my ATPL conversion course using Rob Avery's materials: Avfacts ATPL - Courses (http://www.robavery.com.au/Courses.htm) .

Weather here is through NAIPS. Get yourself a login (free) and start poking around. https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/naips/Account/Logon

Charts Including area charts can be found on the Air Services website: Aeronautical Information Package | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp)

The Jeppesen of Oz: https://www.ozrunways.com/

CASA publishes a VFR Guide, VFRG which is really, really good. It's online, but the full colour book is worth buying: Civil Aviation Safety Authority | Visual Flight Rules Guide (http://vfrg.casa.gov.au/)

For fun and familiarisation you might like to watch these free videos: https://outnback.casa.gov.au/

You're going to have to spend a lot of time with your face in the books here. They are pretty disorganised compared to what you are used to. There are CAR's, CASR's, CAO's, CAAPs, things that supersede things from one book that are found in another book, etc. They are gradually rationalising the library, but in the meantime, you need to be fluid in multiple reference methods that are not consistent from one set of rules to another.

Look at the CASA test site to see what materials you can bring in to the exam. (link above). This is a good list of the books you should have in your library, either electronic or printed.

You might like to make your own index to keep track of what is where across the books. Personally, I put all the books into one directory on my Mac and use the search function to find things in multiple documents. You'll definitely need to take some time to get used to the vocabulary, which is also inconsistent from book to book. Moreover, they absolutely adore acronyms and abbreviations here, so maybe make yourself a running list of those that you come across.

Overall, Australian aviation is quite safe and modern, and I am really enjoying flying here, as I am sure you will, too.

However, I've found that CRM here is about 20 years behind North America. The old guard "captain is the boss" mentality still predominates on some flight decks, with a bunch of crusty micro-managing foul-mouthed old farts who seem to think they are braving the Indian Ocean in a Vickers still running the show. I had a training captain tell me earnestly "women should be barefoot and pregnant, not in the flight deck" just the other day. (There are not many women in charge of anything in aviation here yet.) First officers are generally expected to be seen but not heard, to do without thinking, and to leave the autopilot on at all times.

But the next generation of pilots are rising rapidly and in my experience are a great bunch of people to work with with. They have a more contemporary understanding of human factors, CRM, and gender equality.

And unless anyone asks, nobody wants to know how things are done elsewhere. Pretend that you are an absolute moron who knows nothing about flying and you'll do great. Really. Look up "Tall Poppy Syndrome". (https://thingsaussieslike.wordpress.com/2014/11/12/no-18-tall-poppy-syndrome/) I made the mistake of telling my sim trainer that I had prior jet experience and then spent the next two months deflecting his blows. It was shocking until I knew what was happening.

The good news for you is that there is an absolute pilot shortage here.

Best of luck and happy landings.

[josephfeatherweight]

The IREX was pretty tough. Typically in Australia, flying around 300+ days a year in VMC with no icing to speak of, I think the pilots and examiners get bored and spend their days thinking of new ways to take the fun out of flying.
Beautifully written and unfortunately true! Nice one!
i also tend to agree with most else you've written. Good luck AVF, once you've jumped through the hoops, there will be jobs here for someone with your experience.

[Popgun]

The post from Aloha is gold!

Cruel but fair!

PG

[mattyj]

You’ll find people here call flights “flights” not “rides”

checkrides is fine and you’ll find that Australia is full of flying lawyers who carry round notebooks to jot down other pilots indiscretions so they can file reports. The sort of people that think that the distinction between rides and flights is relevant to mention. Don’t think that your years of flying over mountains and in the snow and ice has any relevance in Australia. The flat featureless red wilderness with small humps every now and then under an equally featureless blue sky is utterly terrifying to a real aviator

[aviation_enthus]

Can I suggest getting written references from previous employers/pilots to help you with your future applications in Aus. Maybe have them include and email address for contact to help with the time zone differences?

Otherwise as others have said get into the study. Australian Aviation is more pedantic than the rest of the world and you’ll inevitably find yourself pulled up for some small indiscretion!

[sheppey]

But the next generation of pilots are rising rapidly and in my experience . will be totally automatics dependant and a flight safety risk if they ever get around to be allowed to hand fly without all the automatics as a crutch:E
The flat featureless red wilderness with small humps every now and then under an equally featureless blue sky is utterly terrifying to a real aviator
And don't be fooled with the daytime featureless wilderness because at night you will see millions of lights on the ground. The lights are the upturned eyes of the flies..

[Burleigh Effect]

Hi ladies and gentlemen

Just like AVF above, I too have hit the wall of anonymous lurking. In the interests of not starting a new thread I thought I'd resurrect this one (most recent I could find) to try and get an understanding of how long the entire process takes.

For the sake of clarity and to avoid potential pot-shots:

- I used the PPRuNe search function (and googled *site:www.pprune.org FAA to CASA conversion*
- I am an AUS citizen
- I have an ARN
- I understand the conversion process and requirements as detailed in the Flight Crew Licensing Manual
- I have applied for an ASIC
- I'm currently working through the AVMED
- I have a valid ICAO Aviation English Language Proficiency assessment (level 6)

I'd be grateful for any advice or experience (also opinions) from those in the know or who have done it before, regarding how long the process takes to complete? I understand the time required for the COSA and CHUF exams, and IREX, are all based on my personal ability to study for and conduct these but is there a 'ball park' number of weeks or months that it takes the average punter to complete?

Also, from completion of the instrument rating flight test, how long does it usually take CASA to process this, ie how long after taxi and shut-down until I have a CASA CPL and can start cold-calling operators and handing my CV to anyone with opposable thumbs?

I'm in the process of returning to AUS and will look to factor these timeframes into my planning, that way I can work out if my car purchase needs to be based on being an Uber driver for the short, mid or long-term.

Any advice or info on the process and likely timeframe would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

BE

[AlphaVictorFoxtrot]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and advice. Especially Aloha_KSA, that was a super helpful post (would probably have taken me even more time to finish the conversions if not for it).

For those that may be wondering on the whole process, there are pretty much the following distinct stages:

Submit your ARN paperwork (do that ASAP)
Submit your conversion paperwork as soon as you have an ARN number. Be prepared to do this as soon as you possibly can. Check the "Overseas License Conversion" page on the CASA website for the Form 61-4A. (You'll need to do this quick because this is the part that takes the longest. In my case, with me checking in every month, it still took them 3 months to process).
Get your Class 1 medical done. Make sure to have the payment to both the doc and CASA sorted, otherwise, that might delay your conversion approval. (It happened to me!)
Find a flight school that has both SE and ME IFR training available. (Recommendation: stay away from Sydney, Melbourne, and maybe Perth, unless you're location constrained)
Once you've done that, "enroll" at that school for your conversion (where I did it, it was sufficient just to tell them that's what I was doing, some schools will require more formal paperwork). You will need this to apply for your ASIC.
Once you've got your ASIC and the CASA go-ahead (they'll email/snail mail you a letter, saying what exams you'll need to do), you can start doing your written tests. For me, converting a CPL ME IFR, there was two: CHUF (human factors), and COSA (overseas conversion test) - the latter was primarily Air Law and Planning/Performance, with some Nav thrown in.
Once that's done (yes, you can't start flying until you finish your tests), you can go flying. Hope you've save up money!
If, like me, you're converting a CPL and a rating (ME & IFR for me), you could apply for your CPL once you've done that flight test. That should save you time.
Once you've finished the rest of the flight tests, and assuming you have applied for your CPL and received it, you could start flying right away (in theory), as your new ratings just get written in your license.

Now, in terms of how long the whole process takes? It sort of depends on your budget, the flying school you get, and how many speed bumps you encounter on the way. Here's how it broke down for me:

Pretty quick. I think it came back within 2 weeks
Brutally slow. 3-4 months. Also will not get finalized until you do step 3 (medical)
Somewhere in the 1-2 month area. The better your health, the quicker it gets approved. Any prior non-CASA medicals do not matter 1 bit.
Depends on how location flexible you are, and how confident you are in your Google-Fu in researching an appropriate school. Took me about a week of running around to all the area schools to find a decent one.
About 1 month.
Depends on how familiar you are with Australian regulations. Took me about 4 weeks to get ready and do all the tests, but that was with near zero knowledge of just how picky the regs are here.
Entirely depends on your budget. Me, I had to do it over about 6 months because immigrating here ate most of my savings, and no one in my area flew anything I was familiar with. If you've got enough to spend (the flight school has to recommend you for every flight test), and have free time, I could see it being doable in something around 1-2 months.
About 1 month from CPL flight test to CPL license in my hands.
Immediate after your last flight exam, or as long as CASA takes to process all your flight exams if you choose not to do Step 8.

So, overall, you could probably get the whole process done in as little as 5-6 months (or even 4 if you're a flight regs genius as well as God's gift to aviation), but, realistically, you'd probably be looking at 8-9 months.

Hopefully this helps whoever is doing the same thing.

Good luck!
AVF

[aroa]

Why should the flat red wilderness out back be terrifying to any aviator ? You have a WAC to back up yr GPS dont ya?
There is a huge area of boonies in back country Canada...when all covered in snow its just a different colour.
Nothing to be scared of, apart from the God awful cold.

[georgetw]

Why should the flat red wilderness out back be terrifying to any aviator ? You have a WAC to back up yr GPS dont ya?

There is a huge area of boonies in back country Canada...when all covered in snow its just a different colour.

Nothing to be scared of, apart from the God awful cold.

What's wrong with the good old Shell road map, and the old system of I Follow Railways. (IFR). Worked for 1980 Ag pilots.