Another question for PBN

[chr]

Hello

The deadline for EU is 25 of Aug. this year and question is what if I do not have licence endorsement until that time ?
If I declare non RNAV at the flight plan is it ok to go ? or that requirement is only linked to RNAV approaches ?

[First.officer]

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2017034.pdf

2 Scope

2.1 The new PBN regulations will require:

• That from 25 August 2018 pilots may only fly in accordance with PBN routes and procedures after they have been granted PBN privileges as an endorsement to their Instrument Rating (IR)

• All pilots with an IR or Enroute Instrument Rating (EIR) will need to have PBN privileges after the 25 August 2020.

[maxphlyer]

marvellous.. well thats not what CAE said to me a week ago on my recurrent..

May I ask you at which CAE centre did you do your recurrent last week?

[noneya]

Its an online course how big of a deal is it not to just do it?

[Lowmick]

Its an online course how big of a deal is it not to just do it?

Since now not just an online course, but endorsemet to IR. So rating for example would be SpaceShuttle/IR/PBN.

[BizJetJock]

That's when the CAA issue it, the TRE for revalidation has to write /PBN to show that he has tested you to keep it valid.

[flight scchool]

Im not really up to date with all this to be honest as I dont fly under my EASA licence at present and haven't done for a while. Although I do keep my TR current on it. I remember when I did my Recurrent in FSI in Feb, the examiner wrote a statement on the check ride form saying something like 'he had completed approaches/PBN etc' (really cant remember what the exact statement was) Has anyone else had that? I asked am I good to go on PBN etc, he said yes. To be honest, it was all new to me as I've been out of europe.

[Chesty Morgan]

Good to know. :ok:

At the current rate of additions we are going to need to go back to the old school bigger paper licenses again to fit em all in..

Don’t worry, you lose the LV bit when they stick the PBN on.

[dirk85]

You actually get both. I have in the renewal endorsement section of my license: TYPE/IR/LV/PBN

[specialbrew]

You actually get both. I have in the renewal endorsement section of my license: TYPE/IR/LV/PBN

As of a few weeks ago the UK CAA issued a notice to say that there is no further requirement to put the "LV" on the licence and that the onus will be on the operator to prove LV training if necessary. So future licence endorsements will simply be "TYPE**/IR/PBN"

Source: CAE UK

[dirk85]

Good to know.

Must be very new, or my examiner not up to date, because I did my renewal mid March and it was as I wrote, on my UK license.

[rudestuff]

I've got /IR/LV/PBN as well. I guess they can still put /LV even if it's not mandatory. It makes sense to have it in case you get ramp checked in fog..

[BizJetJock]

Good to know.

Must be very new, or my examiner not up to date, because I did my renewal mid March and it was as I wrote, on my UK license.

The notice was issued 15th March, effective 15th March. Nothing like a bit of advance warning.

But like a lot of things, there was never any requirement for /LV to be on your licence, it was just the CAA complicating things. It has always been an operator requirement. Similarly, the regulation about PBN specifically states that it is a logbook endorsement. The CAA putting it on the licence are just adding unnecessary confusion.

[CL300]

Not only in UK, France also.
I have just asked to have it endorsed on my license. Grand Father rights from GNSS, otherwise they said that the deadline was in 2020. Whatever , I shall receive my new license soon ( strikes depending)

[Son of a Beech]

A bit of topic but what is LV? Only thing I can guess is Low Visebility but if that is the case I’ve been doing 125 take-off and CAT-II since 1998 but never had anything like that on my license.

[First.officer]

Low visibility (LV) licence endorsement - SkyWise (http://skywise.caa.co.uk/low-visibility-lv-licence-endorsement/)

[Son of a Beech]

That’s good. Think about all the times I did LVO in the UK and didn’t have it in my license. Can only imagine the discussion with the CAA inspector

[First.officer]

Well, i'm guessing (only a guess mind) that should it have become apparent, then any CAA involvement would have most likely looked at your training records to confirm that (whilst not annotated as such) you had indeed completed LVO training. And perhaps a few words on the back of that. A SAFA/SANA inspection however would have perhaps been more 'lively' in findings I would think ;-(.

[Son of a Beech]

Never had a SAFA inspection in the UK but plenty in other countries. Never asked about training records. This is more a thing for the annual CAA audit in the head office. Considering that LV in a the license is a typical UK thing and not an EASA requirement. I don’t think they can comment to much on it.

Ironically PBN is pretty much in the same category so no clue why this should be on the license.

[helops]

Everybody talks about PBN as an endorsement to be added to the IR rating, which will be mandatory after 25 August 2020.

What about the aircraft then? If I have an aircraft not approved for PBN operations, can I still fly under IFR after 25 August 2020. (let’s suppose as a pilot I am PBN endorsed but I need to fly my PA28 which is not PBN approved)

Where can I find regulation regarding aircraft minimum equipment for IFR to know what to do after August 25?

thank you

[BizJetJock]

For a PA28 it's NCO.IDE.A.195. No need for PBN equipment if the route and /or approach is not PBN; No specific approval required if the equipment has the the approrpiate type approval.
There is also a CAA exemption for light aircraft IR holders to the PBN requirement, but I'm afraid I can't find it just at the moment and haven't got time to look properly.

[helops]

Good to know thank you.

The problem is that in Italy(and in other EU countries) almost all the airways are RNP5. I’m afraid it will be difficult to fil a IFR flight plan after 25 August. Almost 80% of all STAR and SID routes are RNAV/RNP..

[LastStandards]

The PBN endorsement to an IR became required for PBN airspace or approaches (defined as routes or procedures requiring RNAV or RNP capability) on 25th August 2018, with it becoming mandatory for all IR tests (both initial and recurrent) from 25th August 2020. It has therefore been a requirement for any airways flight for over a year - RNAV aircraft equipment became a mandatory requirement for airways flight some years previously, phased in at various altitudes/levels for different countries, but generally required for any airways operations across Europe since 2012. It did take some schools a while to catch up, certainly in the UK it wasn't long ago that even some very major schools were teaching students to track VOR to VOR rather than waypoint to waypoint using RNAV.

[helops]

So, if my onboard GPS is RNAV5 (B-RNAV) certified, can I follow an RNP5 Airway legally? Or it is mandatory to have a GPS with RAIM prediction?

[WTON]

Yes, you are allowed to follow a RNP5 routing ; GMI SPA.PBN.100 OPERATIONS-GENERAL for your perusal.

[helops]

To WTON.

I read GMI SPA PBN 100 but didn’t find anything about RNP5. Only RNAV5 is mentioned.

[LastStandards]

This appears to be an editing inconsistency since ENR3.3 (RNAV Routes) of the Italian AIP is yet to be developed. Section 2.1 of GEN1.5 only refers to RNAV equipment (specifying guidance accuracy of 5nm, therefore RNAV5), suggesting that the RNP5 statement in ENR3.1 is yet to be updated to RNAV5. Perhaps worth raising as a consistency issue, and well worth discussing during PBN training.

[helops]

I thought RNP 5 is more recent way of navigation than RNAV 5. According to your statement, Laststandards, it's just the opposite.

[LastStandards]

Perhaps "updated" wasn't the best choice of words, since RNP capability does describe a more recent standard than RNAV. My intention was to clarify that the AIP mention of RNP5 may be an out of date editing error, since Eurocontrol standards generally require RNAV5 rather than RNP5 capability for enroute controlled airspace - suggesting therefore that then GEN1.5 mention of RNAV5 was produced more recently than the RNP5 statements in ENR3.1. RNP5 is generally seen more operating outside Europe, eg across the Middle East.

[helops]

Understood thank you