617

[betty swallox]

https://www.forces.net/news/iconic-dambusters-squadron-makes-historic-transition



Wonderful!

[Barksdale Boy]

Good to see!

[just another jocky]

Good to see my old Sqn continuing its outstanding heritage.

[Tankertrashnav]

Blimey, bone domes have come on a bit since my old one with with the separate cloth inner! Pricey bit of kit I should think.

[Evanelpus]

Good on yer 617 sqd!

[sandiego89]

Good on them. I do find the location of the ceremony (Washington DC) a bit interesting. Not a real center of aviation, not home for the crews, country or families involved, but a good location for embassy staff, VIP's etc. More political than heritage perhaps....

[goudie]

I do hope the squadron personnel will not be referred to as ‘the dam buster boys’ by the cousins...as we were when four Vulcans from 617 went to Nellis in ‘59. Just a touch embarrassing! Brits aren’t good, in my opinion, at reflected glory
Good though to see 617, back in business.

[ian16th]

I do hope the squadron personnel will not be referred to as ‘the dam buster boys’ by the cousins...as we were when four Vulcans from 617 went to Nellis in ‘59. Just a touch embarrassing! Brits aren’t good, in my opinion, at reflected glory
Good though to see 617, back in business.

Did 617 have their own a/c in '59? In 1961 when 617 were credited with flying non-stop from UK to Sydney, the only 617 'assets' were the aircrew. At the time RAF Scampton was using centralised servicing, where ground crew were not a squadron asset nor were the a/c. The Scampton Vulcan's carried 3 squadron badges on them.

As for the Washington event, the parading airmen were Rocks! The colour party excepted.

It would also have been nice if the CAS could have worn his medals.

[Bob Viking]

It seems to me that CaS might have been in danger of exceeding his baggage allowance if he’d worn all of his medals!

Also, with QCS providing the body of troops it did ensure a good show.

I’m assuming this was at the Smithsonian. Am I right?

Good to see another Sqn come back and with a bloody great new toy as well.

BV

[goudie]

Ian16th. Ground crew were part of the squadron, when it re-formed in ‘58, as were the Vulcans and still were when I was posted away mid ‘59. Squadron personnel formed the Guard of Honour when the Queen Mum presented the Squadron Colours. Identifying with a Squadron was key to moral, I always thought.
Centralised Servicing. Is that still around?

[ian16th]

Centralised Servicing. Is that still around?


I dunno, fortunately I was on 214 at the time, being 'tankers' we were excluded from the amalgamation of the 'bomber' sqdns.

Centralised servicing was only ever popular with bean counters.

In my experience, ground crew preferred being 'on a squadron' and aircrew always liked having 'their' ground crew.

[sandiego89]

I’m assuming this was at the Smithsonian. Am I right?




From the picture on the linked site below, it does look like the main Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. Downtown on the mall. Main entrance.


I note with a touch of irony the second picture the "Boeing Milestones of flight hall" signage shows prominently.


https://www.openeyesopinion.com/the-uk-royal-air-forces-new-617-squadron-to-fly-f-35-jets/

[betty swallox]

BV. Yes. It was the Smithsonian. It was a wonderful show. I was honoured to be there.

As to the negative comments above re it being in the USA, senior officers, etc. Usual pprune tosh. The Sqn is standing up in the USA, so it’s entirely appropriate. But glad you tried to get your dig in!!

Not a rear center (centre?!) of aviation! Ha! You got us all there. That’s a good one....!

[Mickj3]

Ian 16th, I was (groundcrew) on 83 Sqn (Mk 2 Vulcan) at Scampton in 61, 617 had the Mk 1A which were being replaced with the Mk 2 and 27 Sqn were forming with the Mk 2. Kicking the brain cells into gear the hangers were numbered 1 to 4 (L to R on google maps). No 1 hangar was 617 and their dispersal was bottom left hand corner of the airfield between the married quarters and 04 threshold (F dispersal I think). E dispersal (which was the same layout as F in 61 and is opposite No 1 hangar) was 83 Sqn dispersal. No 3 hangar was ASF and 27 Sqn had 4 Hangar. I dont think 27 had an allocated dispersal in 61 as they had only just started to receive aircraft. 617 and 83 certainly had their own dedicated groundcrew up until I was posted to Watton in 63. At Watton they had just introduced centralised servicing and it was universally hated by both tribes (air/groundcrew).

[peterperfect]

Did they forget to invite the Fleet Air Arm element of 617, or forget to film them ?
I thought it was a mixed service squadron.

[BEagle]

Why are we using the Americanization-wordwise of 'standing up' a squadron?

Surely 're-form' is the UK expression? I.e. '617 Sqn will re-form with the F-35B at RAF Marham'...:hmm:

[Bob Viking]

I knew it wouldn’t take long for someone to pick that up. And BEagle, I knew it would be you.

I should have put a bet on it!

Just pulling your leg by the way. I am, of course, appalled by the slip in standards that you have quite rightly highlighted.

BV

[BEagle]

;)

I also get somewhat incensed with the manner in which the BBC is adopting oik-talk these days. For example:

'Garridge' rather than Garage
'Reeesearch' rather than Research.

Authentic local accents are one thing, lazy acceptance of inferior standards is quite another! Even the 'transatlantic' accents of 1960s pirate radio DJs sound cultured when compared with the oik-speak of today...no' 'ot I mean?

Anyway, good to see the 617th re-forming (at long last) with the F-35B. Hopefully they'll be seen in many more parts of the UK as they work towards IOC.

[jindabyne]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the thread opener, I agree BEAgs!

But then I see that he 'likes planes'!

[betty swallox]

Haha! None taken Jin! That’s just funny. I agree with the sentiment (of course, I can’t claim responsibility for the content!).

So is it “Americanised”, or “Americanized”....?

[RedhillPhil]

I see from the write-up that the F-35 is described as "fifth generation". What does that mean and what were examples of first, second, third et al?

[MAINJAFAD]

I see from the write-up that the F-35 is described as "fifth generation". What does that mean and what were examples of first, second, third et al?

As regards the RAF

1st Gen - Early jet aircraft armed only with Cannon or MG's / supersonic in a dive - Meteor/Vampire/F86/Swift/Hunter
2nd Gen - Aircraft designed to use IR AAM as primary armament and/or supersonic in level flight - Lightning
3rd Gen - Swing role / Radar guided MRAAM - Phantom FGR2
4th Gen - Swing Wing / Analogue FBW / Pulse Doppler radar - Tornado F3
4.5 Gen - Digital FBW / high maneuverability - Typhoon
5th Gen - Stealth and data fusion - F35

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Beagle - actually I hadn't a clue what "standing up" meant in this context. Does this mean squadrons now "lie down" when they are disbanded?

[Martin the Martian]

They stand down, of course. Therefore, as you would expect for anything military, there is a lot of standing to be done.

[RedhillPhil]

As regards the RAF

1st Gen - Early jet aircraft armed only with Cannon or MG's / supersonic in a dive - Meteor/Vampire/F86/Swift/Hunter
2nd Gen - Aircraft designed to use IR AAM as primary armament and/or supersonic in level flight - Lightning
3rd Gen - Swing role / Radar guided MRAAM - Phantom FGR2
4th Gen - Swing Wing / Analogue FBW / Pulse Doppler radar - Tornado F3
4.5 Gen - Digital FBW / high maneuverability - Typhoon
5th Gen - Stealth and data fusion - F35


Thankyou.
.........................

[langleybaston]

Thanks Beagle - actually I hadn't a clue what "standing up" meant in this context. Does this mean squadrons now "lie down" when they are disbanded?

and then there is an honour guard ........................

[Pure Pursuit]

As regards the RAF

1st Gen - Early jet aircraft armed only with Cannon or MG's / supersonic in a dive - Meteor/Vampire/F86/Swift/Hunter
2nd Gen - Aircraft designed to use IR AAM as primary armament and/or supersonic in level flight - Lightning
3rd Gen - Swing role / Radar guided MRAAM - Phantom FGR2
4th Gen - Swing Wing / Analogue FBW / Pulse Doppler radar - Tornado F3
4.5 Gen - Digital FBW / high maneuverability - Typhoon
5th Gen - Stealth and data fusion - F35

Sorry mainjafad but, that’s complete hoop with regards to 4.5 Gen. Agility has nothing to do with it at all.

Typhoon does not have AESA, amongst other things, and is very firmly 4th Gen.

[Easy Street]

"Swing wing" is definitely not a 4th gen characteristic either. It's a 1950s concept that became technically possible in the 60s and featured heavily in the 70s.

[Finningley Boy]

"Swing wing" is definitely not a 4th gen characteristic either. It's a 1950s concept that became technically possible in the 60s and featured heavily in the 70s.

I always thought the Hunter and Javelin were opposite ends of the 2nd generation, the first generation I always imagined ended with Meteor and Venom NFs and that the Lightning and F-4 Phantom II were both third generation, Lightning being at the start along with the likes of the F-104, Mirage III and J-35 Draken. Tornado, Mirage 2000, F-18, F-15 and F-16 were then 4th generation while the F-18E/F, Rafale, Gripen and Typhoon and, I suppose; F-22 are all between stools as the 4.5 generation. As for standing up and down, I believe this to be a further corruption of English terminology as originates from the British Isles with Americanization of English, which many British people, the younger the more likely, tend to adopted. American culture is very much confused as British culture now. This is why Simon Cowell, or whoever it was, thought Boot Camp rather than 'Square Bashing' was a more widely accepted term for the X Factor!

FB:8

[jindabyne]

Pure Pursuit

A bit harsh, and inaccurate. Finningley Boy sums things up correctly.

I was attempting to flog Typhoon in the late nineties when the terms 4th and fifth generation became increasingly and loosely used - with no specific definition; which aroused a deal of uninformed debate! Typhoon is most certainly 4.5

[Bruggen 130]

Sorry mainjafad but, that’s complete hoop with regards to 4.5 Gen. Agility has nothing to do with it at all.

Typhoon does not have AESA, amongst other things, and is very firmly 4th Gen.
I think it does or it's in the pipeline.

[Snafu351]

The generations thing is mainly a marketing tool. There is some validity to it but very little.