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Out Of Trim
18th Apr 2018, 11:21
What the Hell is going on at The Home Office?

It has come to light, that The Windrush Scandal is only the tip of the Iceberg.

On an LBC phone-in; the daughter of an RAF pilot returning from a tour in Canada at age 7. At the time she had a Canadian passport and her parents sent off her birth certificate to document her arrival in the UK. These documents were lost and now decades later after consistently living and working in the UK. She recently applied for a new job and now finds she has to prove she has the right to remain and work in the UK. So she finds herself in exactly the same position as those of The Windrush invited to live and work in the UK due to documentation issues.

I can’t understand why the Home Office cannot consult Tax and perhaps Medical records to sort out these right to remain situations instead of putting the burden of proof on the individual with threats to deport them.

The Home Secretary needs to get a grip of her department and fix these unfair problems fast.

sitigeltfel
18th Apr 2018, 12:59
What the Hell is going on at The Home Office?

The Home Secretary needs to get a grip of her department and fix these unfair problems fast.

The decision to destroy the records was taken in 2009.

No need to guess who was in power then!

Another foot in mouth event by Corbyn's mob.

Planemike
18th Apr 2018, 13:02
The decision to destroy the records was taken in 2009.

No need to guess who was in power then!

Another foot in mouth event by Corbyn's mob.


You are trying to score a political point. I doubt it is quite as simple as you portray... See msg # 5 below.

RedhillPhil
18th Apr 2018, 13:07
It comes to something when an entire generation of hard working immigrants who helped the NHS, the railways and the bus companies just for three examples are treated thus when we can't seem to get rid of Jamaican murderers, Albanian pimps and Pakistani child rapists.

Curious Pax
18th Apr 2018, 13:15
You were watching PMQs then. Oddly the Home Office last night said “In 2010, the decision was taken by the UK Border Agency”. No 10 also clarified after PMQs “destruction of landing cards was an "operational decision" by the UK Border Agency” - ie not a decision by ministers.

Having said that Jeremy did well not to land a killer question when the goal was so open against May on this issue. It’s down to her that the Immigration authorities seem to have been run like a branch of the BNP since 2010. I support removal of genuinely illegal immigrants, but her stunts such as the ‘go home’ vans have created the toxic atmosphere which has led to this Windrush debacle.

Planemike
18th Apr 2018, 13:21
CP .............. Agree with you. A number of the people the Home Office sought to deport are "model citizens" who have worked hard and paid their taxes here. They should be making life difficult for the criminals, work shy and scroungers not those who have made a contribution to our society.

sitigeltfel
18th Apr 2018, 13:31
You are trying to score a political point. I doubt it is quite as simple as you portray...

The facts speak for themselves, anything to the contrary is obfuscation.

Corbyn thought he had a clear shot at goal, but the ball hit the crossbar and came back to hit him square between the eyes. No points for him.

Planemike
18th Apr 2018, 13:35
The facts speak for themselves, anything to the contrary is obfuscation..


.....or possibly just taking a look at the facts. On information available, it seems likely the decision to scrap the landing cards was taken by a civil servant, NOT a politician.

Yamagata ken
18th Apr 2018, 13:43
This borrox is never ending. The Home Office or whatever it is called is unfit for purpose.

I was born in 1952 in Australia to British parents. We returned to the UK in 1958. My first British passport was issued in 1981 and it states explicitly "British Subject; Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies".

Despite this, when I last renewed my UK passport I was required to supply (from Japan) certified copies of my father's (b1907) and mother's (b1917) birth certificates and their marriage (1937) certificate.

The paper trail (mine) goes back to 1981 but the Home Office morons..... I'll stop there.

ORAC
18th Apr 2018, 15:46
The subject of UK nationality is a total mess because of the old Empire. Initially anyone in the Empire was entitled to settle in the UK, but as the influx started post war there was first an attempt to separate everyone out by the nationality act of 1948, then 1958, then 1964, then 1965, then 1971, then again in 1981, then another in 2002 - all with differing levels of right of entry and abode. Frankly, I feel sorry for the poor buggers trying to explain, let alone implement, them differing rules.

“Thanks to its overseas colonies and protectorates, the United Kingdom has a a variety of different citizenship types, each with a different class of passport.

If you are a British Dependent Territories Citizen, British Overseas Citizen, British Subject, British National Overseas, or a British Protected Person, you may need a visa, even when regular British passport holders do not.

How to tell what kind of UK passport you have

On the Biodata page of your passport, you should find a 3-letter code:

GBR - British Citizen (normal UK Passport)
GBD - British Overseas Territories Citizens
GBO - British Overseas Citizens
GBS - British Subjects
GBP - British Protected Persons
GBN - British National Overseas

So you can be a British subject, a British citizen or a British national. Confused? You should be.

The reason I raise the topic is because of Ken’s post. If you read the link a lot of the statuses changed in 1981-82, so lots of people got dropped in different boxes.....

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-protected-person

British Nationality Act 1948. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1948)

British Nationality Act 1981. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1981)

History of British Nationality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_British_nationality_law).

Tankertrashnav
18th Apr 2018, 16:47
Another government department which is no longer fit for purpose is the HMRC. Talking to my accountant he reckons that so many competent accountants have left HMRC and entered the private sector that the only ones left are those who can't get a job elsewhere. Probably be the same thing at the Home Office.

4mastacker
18th Apr 2018, 17:02
Another government department which is no longer fit for purpose is the HMRC. Talking to my accountant he reckons that so many competent accountants have left HMRC and entered the private sector that the only ones left are those who can't get a job elsewhere. Probably be the same thing at the Home Office.

Try sacking an incompetent Civil Servant - it's easier to find rocking horse [email protected] on the Moon.

Dan_Brown
18th Apr 2018, 18:07
The immigration agreements are "recipical" between participating nations. So, if the UK mauls Caribbean subjects for example, then the Brits can expect the same treatment in the Caribbean. Is that fair? I think so.

Dan Gerous
18th Apr 2018, 18:51
Just another example of government taxing or penalising the general public, rather than solve the underlying problem.

jindabyne
18th Apr 2018, 19:09
Awful thread. Nobody commenting passionately or dispassionately. Way too much aggression.

flash8
18th Apr 2018, 19:18
Just another example of government taxing or penalising the general public, rather than solve the underlying problem.

We have gone past the stage of accountability.... it's now called "lessons will be learned" and everyone stays put... they know this full well....

Jindy... a tad too harsh?

jindabyne
18th Apr 2018, 19:38
flash

Just how I feel. I'm old-ish, experienced a deal, and am sad to see the way my country is panning out. In the pub, we debate much of the same stuff that is done on here (with younger ones also); but there is no keyboard harshness or cockiness.

Well actually there is, but 'tis slapped down!

Blacksheep
18th Apr 2018, 19:42
What the Hell is going on at The Home Office?It has been broken since the 1948 Nationality Act created the status of Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies. This was at the instigation of the Commonwealth countries at the 1947 conference, where they wished to do away with the British Subject and Commonwealth Citizen status to reinforce their own sovereignty. That status of Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies together with the qualification requirements remained the same until 1983 when the 1981 act came into force.

In my own case, under the previous citizenship test, I was a British Subject by reason of being the legitimate son of British parents, even though I was neither born in the United Kingdom, nor in a Commonwealth country. My birth was registered in South Africa as required by law and in addition I was registered at the British Consulate in Cape Town and entered into my mother's passport. The 1948 Nationality Act deprived me of British nationality but this was unknown to my parents and I remained in my mother's passport until my arrival at Southampton in December 1950.

In 1968 I was serving in the Royal Air Force and, being placed on PWRs (warning of pending overseas posting) I was required to obtain a passport. My application was rejected on the grounds that I was not a British citizen and indeed had no right to be in UK at all, having entered illegally. The family consulted a solicitor who advised that I should claim citizenship by descent. Fortunately, I was able to prove own and my father's legitimacy and my grandfather's status as British by birth. If I had failed in this, I would have been deported to South Africa.

So, all this Windrush excitement is nothing new, nor is it aimed at people of any particular race. Incidentally, it was a Labour government that created the act that took away my own status of British Subject by birth. Governments of either political persuasion often fail to see possible unfortunate side effects or consequences of the laws they pass. The test is whether or not they take appropriate action to correct their mistakes.

chevvron
19th Apr 2018, 01:35
CP .............. Agree with you. A number of the people the Home Office sought to deport are "model citizens" who have worked hard and paid their taxes here.

Which makes them 'soft' targets when the Home Office try to fulfil their 'quota' of deportations.

Pontius Navigator
19th Apr 2018, 07:42
The problem is !are but not new. My grand parents were Irish. My mother was born in India while her father was in the Indian Army. She went to Ireland in 1915 at the start of the War. She then went to school in Luxembourg returning to the IFS during holidays. When her father retired he setup business in UK, she trained in UK, and at the start of the War took up a nursing appointment in India. She returned to UK in 1941.

She was initially refused a passport when she applied in the 1950s.

Krystal n chips
19th Apr 2018, 07:53
Another government department which is no longer fit for purpose is the HMRC. Talking to my accountant he reckons that so many competent accountants have left HMRC and entered the private sector that the only ones left are those who can't get a job elsewhere. Probably be the same thing at the Home Office.

That's probably quite true given over the last year I have, ostensibly, owed the UK £ xxxx, £xxx £ xx and finally £x pounds in tax, non of these actually being correct...a minor detail, and given the sources of income are decidedly fixed, and taxed at source, it does make you wonder as to how such confusion can arise over very simple and basic tax calculations.

If you want an organisation which is truly "unfit for purpose " ( well OK, Highways England being overqualified in this respect ) try something called DBS....a retirement home for former officers and desperately incompetent civilians alike engaged in the occupation of HR.

Grayfly
19th Apr 2018, 08:25
Nothing new here, Dickens wrote about this sort of stuff and it's not got any better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7TgriNKWrQ

ATNotts
19th Apr 2018, 09:12
This monumental cock up has largely come about because during Mrs. May's time as Home Secretary there was pressure coming from the usual suspects in the media, and the grass roots of the Conservative party, plus, I feel sure a chunk of the public at large to stem the flow of foreigners coming to live in the UK.

Mrs. May will have demanded of her civil servants that "something must be done", and something was, with little or no regard for the "law of unintended consequences"

As has been noted above, the destruction of landing cards was nothing to do with any politicians, and was done by the civil service themselves - they probably put a small note in a red box somewhere that the Minister failed to read (well she can't be expected to read everything)

The person I feel sorry for, aside of the people who have been under the threat of deportation, and losing NHS care, is Mrs. Rudd. I generally have little time for her, but she is being hung out to dry by the cabinet, and the media whilst "Teflon May" is riding out the storm.

The quote of Harold McMillan "events, dear boy, events" back in the 1960s seems to be particularly apt.

The lesson to be learnt is never to make policy in response to media outcries, it backfired in this case, and has hardly been a roaring success in the cases of the dangerous dogs act.

Out Of Trim
19th Apr 2018, 10:36
Thanks everyone!

I've just realised that this isn't incompetence. This is worse, it's Deliberate and bloody Evil. A Deliberate Policy to try and deport perfectly innocent citizens (sic) to massage the immigration figures. :mad:

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Apr 2018, 11:11
That's probably quite true given over the last year I have, ostensibly, owed the UK £ xxxx, £xxx £ xx and finally £x pounds in tax, non of these actually being correct...
Quite why they choose to do this is beyond me - each year they send me at least one wrong notice of coding before doing what I tell them to (which is what I told them to do last year when they got the same thing wrong). You'd think that natural laziness would encourage them to do the job once rather than three times, but it seems not.

G-CPTN
19th Apr 2018, 12:49
You'd think that natural laziness would encourage them to do the job once rather than three times, but it seems not.

Jobs, dear boy, jobs - without which they would have to downsize.

Blacksheep
19th Apr 2018, 12:49
My grand parents were Irish. My mother was born in India while her father was in the Indian Army. She was in a similar position to Spike Milligan who was born in what is now Pakistan when his father was serving in the British Army. His father was born in Ireland as were his grandparents. When he applied for a Passport he was told he was either Pakistani or Irish but wasn't British. Then there is the famous beknighted Indian singer who is currently suing the BBC for invading his privacy and ruining his reputation. He, like me was fortunate enough to be able to get British citizenship by descent.

'British Citizen by Descent' is a second class form of citizenship: it does not bestow the children of a holder the right to British citizenship if they are born abroad. As we found out when I registered the birth of our youngest daughter at the British High Commission in Brunei on the 20th December 1982 just a couple of weeks before the 1981 Nationality act came into force on 1st January 1983. As neither my wife nor I are British citizens by birth, our daughter would have been born stateless if she had been a couple of weeks late. (Being born in Brunei does not confer Brunei citizenship).

I am of course British by descent with a small letter 'd' - my brother has traced our family in a continuous line as far back as 1647. Our family have lived in the Tees Valley and the North Riding of Yorkshire around Barnard Castle, Thirsk and Topcliffe since at least that time according to Parish records. I suppose we could still be foreigners, descended from men who arrived in longships, but I consider myself a pure bred Englishman.

Highway1
19th Apr 2018, 13:23
Nobody is filling me with a warm fuzzy feeling that privatization of Government run services is not a good idea - seems that every Government department bungles the simplest issue.

Wyler
19th Apr 2018, 13:57
The Governments job is to maintain an illusion of peace, prosperity and social conscience.
It does that by crisis management. The great British baying mob screams for something every week and it is the Governments job to look as if it can, and will, do something about it. In reality, it has little real power and often makes things worse.
Next week this will all be forgotten because there will be another Daily Mail type outrage to confront and the Government will look really sorry/tough about that as well.
Meantime the debt grows, the deficit staggers along, jobs evaporate, foreigners buy up property and we are all encouraged to keep what is left of the economy afloat by borrowing money we can't afford to pay back to buy stuff we don't need. The future will be run by poorly educated half wits who can't see past their phone screens and scream blue murder if they hear the words 'No you can't'.
Russia does not need military power, just patience.
Off to the beer garden.

KelvinD
20th Apr 2018, 22:22
And now comes the bad news for the government. Some bright spark has pointed out that, regardless of what the Border Agency did with their paperwork, all immigration records are held at the National Archives. Right up to 1960. That should cover the Windrush saga nicely.

Krystal n chips
21st Apr 2018, 06:11
I think it's called the cascade effect....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/20/dwp-sent-windrush-pensioner-33000-bill-for-disability-benefits

Grayfly
21st Apr 2018, 07:27
And now comes the bad news for the government. Some bright spark has pointed out that, regardless of what the Border Agency did with their paperwork, all immigration records are held at the National Archives. Right up to 1960. That should cover the Windrush saga nicely.

But that would mean The Department for Culture, Media and Sport talking to the Home Office. Then someone talking to the Borders Agency. How's that possible. You would need some sort of internet thingy, people being proactive and maybe even using common sense.

I suppose we can dream.

KelvinD
21st Apr 2018, 07:34
Aah yes! "Common sense". I don't think that is among the list of qualifications for Ministers, Secretaries etc.
Meanwhile, I wonder if Amber Rudd is registering with employment/recruitment agencies? On the news this morning there are reports of someone having leaked one of her emails/letters in which she had promised to out May Mrs May herself. Ruthless Rudd?

RatherBeFlying
21st Apr 2018, 14:45
While ICE may have an even more "hostile environment", ICE gets sued big time whenever they mistakenly detain a US citizen.

Too poor to hire a lawyer? At least in the US a lawyer will take on your case for 25-40% of the judgement / settlement.

In similar circumstances in the US, there would be a class action and Home Office would be looking at something like a billion:E

exeng
21st Apr 2018, 22:20
Not often I post these days, however,

The Mrs, my youngest Son and I were discussing this situation. All of us were utterly ashamed of our nation and our part in it.

I don't have a fix for the culture in our current political system, or indeed the home office. All political parties are a mess.


Kind regards
Exeng

flash8
21st Apr 2018, 22:23
I can't believe Amber Rudd had the cheek to blame the Home Office... of which she is Head of!


‘I am concerned that the Home Office has become too concerned with policy and sometimes loses sight of individuals’


Way beyond farcical!

G-CPTN
21st Apr 2018, 22:57
Yes, Minister!

ShotOne
22nd Apr 2018, 09:54
Re. Soft targets: +1 to that. Unfortunately the “Home Office broken” headline could have been written any time in the last 200 years. In most of these cases there were several alternative sources of official information that would have established the facts. Typically Jeremy tried to turn this to partisan advantage but unfortunately for him chose to spotlight the landing card decision which was taken under s Labour administration

ATNotts
22nd Apr 2018, 10:17
Yes, Minister!

It's classic "Yes Minister" material. People often suggest when that programme is referenced in these forums that it was fiction - it was indeed, but fiction based upon insider knowledge of how the system actually worked / works.

Probably more factual than most of Hollywood's "based on a true story" movies.

ATNotts
22nd Apr 2018, 10:19
Re. Soft targets: +1 to that. Unfortunately the “Home Office broken” headline could have been written any time in the last 200 years. In most of these cases there were several alternative sources of official information that would have established the facts. Typically Jeremy tried to turn this to partisan advantage but unfortunately for him chose to spotlight the landing card decision which was taken under s Labour administration

Taken during a Labour administration, rather than by a Labour administration.

The rule tightening was carried out by the then Home Secretary - the now current Prime Minister. Amber Rudd is being pushed to take the flack, whereas the problem was initiated by our illustrious PM.

ShotOne
22nd Apr 2018, 15:39
If you’re letting the previous Labour administration off the hook on the strength of weasel semantics, that surely applies to present administration too? While we’re at it, the “hostile environment” phrase also first used by (Definitely “by” not ”during “)that same Labour administration. N.b. The rule tightening you refer to was NOT opposed by Labour (although a handful of rebels inc one JC did)

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 00:02
If you look at the full quote where May actually used the “hostile environment” phrase it was in relation to illegal immigrants. What is Corbyn asking for, that we have a 'welcoming environment' for illegal immigrants?

Well knowing Corbyn he probably is..:uhoh:

I still think Amber Rudd should resign though - OK the fiasco didnt start on her watch but the Minister should carry the can when their department screws up.

ATNotts
23rd Apr 2018, 07:31
I still think Amber Rudd should resign though - OK the fiasco didnt start on her watch but the Minister should carry the can when their department screws up.

I don't entirely agree. Ministers aren't the effective CEOs of government departments, that accolade really goes to the civil servant in charge, and it is he or she, if anyone who's head ought to be on the block.

If a minister should be held responsible, that should be the one holding office at the time, not the unfortunate one finding themselves in the seat when the music stops, but personally I think it's the management at fault, not the minister - irrespective of their political colour.

ORAC
23rd Apr 2018, 09:46
ATNotts,

That’s the way the system is designed. civil servants are, supposedly, apolitical and are reviewed and disciplined under civil service procedures. Ministers, being politicians, carry the can for any political crises that involve their department.

eal401
23rd Apr 2018, 10:38
I think the better summary for all this is:

A problem has arisen with the immigration status of Windrush residents. They are unquestionably British citizens. Within days of the issue coming to light, the Government has taken action to address the situation - how well, remains to be seen.

This is a situation that has not arisen out of any malice for these people. It could have been spotted and addressed by countless governments or Home Secretaries, but hasn't been.

What is really infuriating is that representatives of the Labour party are now screaming "Racist, Racist" with little or no grounds, purely because they are desperate to ensure they can abuse the Windrush people for their own personal political gain, not to mention to enable the diversion of attention to their own party's struggles with dealing with people from other backgrounds.

As stated - the hostile environment issue that people are outraged about was to address ILLEGAL immigration, not legal migration.

Let the Home Office sort out the mess they created (under several governments) - that process has already begun and is slowly working.

eal401
23rd Apr 2018, 10:39
ATNotts,

That’s the way the system is designed. civil servants are, supposedly, apolitical and are reviewed and disciplined under civil service procedures. Ministers, being politicians, carry the can for any political crises that involve their department.

Anyone who thinks civil servants are apolitical clearly haven't met any!

Krystal n chips
23rd Apr 2018, 10:56
I think the better summary for all this is:

A problem has arisen with the immigration status of Windrush residents. They are unquestionably British citizens. Within days of the issue coming to light, the Government has taken action to address the situation - how well, remains to be seen.

This is a situation that has not arisen out of any malice for these people. It could have been spotted and addressed by countless governments or Home Secretaries, but hasn't been.

What is really infuriating is that representatives of the Labour party are now screaming "Racist, Racist" with little or no grounds, purely because they are desperate to ensure they can abuse the Windrush people for their own personal political gain, not to mention to enable the diversion of attention to their own party's struggles with dealing with people from other backgrounds.

As stated - the hostile environment issue that people are outraged about was to address ILLEGAL immigration, not legal migration.

Let the Home Office sort out the mess they created (under several governments) - that process has already begun and is slowly working.

Whilst emulating an apologist by proxy on behalf of the Gov't may be self satisfyingly commendable, possibly you need some helpful non revisionist history to appreciate the timescale of this scandal....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/20/the-week-that-took-windrush-from-low-profile-investigation-to-national-scandal

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/22/hostile-environment-landlords-check-immigration-status-under-coalition-government

Also covered on C4 News on a regular basis.

StudentInDebt
23rd Apr 2018, 11:12
Within days of the issue coming to light, the Government has taken action to address the situation Brilliant, exactly how many days have elapsed since 2014?

It’s not just the Windrush generation that this situation will affect, my understanding is that any British subjects and possibly their descendants who migrated prior to about 1971 and have never naturalised or formally become British citizens will be caught up.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Apr 2018, 11:13
Within days of the issue coming to light, the Government has taken action to address the situation
Er, no, it "came to light" months ago at least.

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 13:02
I don't entirely agree. Ministers aren't the effective CEOs of government departments, that accolade really goes to the civil servant in charge, and it is he or she, if anyone who's head ought to be on the block.

If a minister should be held responsible, that should be the one holding office at the time, not the unfortunate one finding themselves in the seat when the music stops, but personally I think it's the management at fault, not the minister - irrespective of their political colour.

Ever tried to sack a senior Civil Servant for incompetence?. The system is designed so that the Minister takes the plaudits when things go well and the brickbats when they dont - ergo, Rudd should go.

I think that the whole system needs review and simplification (Royal Commission perhaps?). We really need to get away from this 'indefinite leave to remain' category and make it that if you are allowed permanent residence you become a UK Citizen with a UK Passport. Then everyone would be clear that if they didn't have a UK Passport they would need to comply with the terms of their particular Visa.

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 13:03
Er, no, it "came to light" months ago at least.

Its been a problem a lot longer than that.

Fareastdriver
23rd Apr 2018, 14:49
if you are allowed permanent residence you become a UK Citizen with a UK Passport

Not a lot of countries do that. You can get a permanent residence visa in many countries but you will not get a passport.

Krystal n chips
23rd Apr 2018, 15:24
Another little twist emerges..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/22/government-aware-for-years-that-hostile-environment-hurt-windrush-generation

Any resemblance to Pinnochio being pure coincidence .....have a close look at the photo.

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 17:15
Not a lot of countries do that. You can get a permanent residence visa in many countries but you will not get a passport.

Looks like the Home Secretary has announced just that..

UK Home | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html)

Amber Rudd today promised Windrush immigrants will be given British citizenship 'quickly and at no cost' as she battles to save her job.
Unveiling a wide-ranging package designed to ease fury at the treatment of people who had been living in the UK and paying taxes for decades, Ms Rudd said they and their children would be granted fast-track passports with charges waived.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Apr 2018, 19:47
How can she "give" British citizenship to people who have always had it?

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 20:37
How can she "give" British citizenship to people who have always had it?

I thought they were given 'indefinite leave to remain' - if they had been given full citizenship then they wouldn't have to prove anything.

G-CPTN
23rd Apr 2018, 20:51
I thought they were given 'indefinite leave to remain'

indefinite
ɪnˈdɛfɪnət/Submit
adjective
1.
lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.
"they may face indefinite detention"
synonyms: unknown, indeterminate, unspecified, unlimited, unrestricted, undecided, undetermined, undefined, unfixed, unsettled, unresolved, uncertain; More
2.
not clearly expressed or defined; vague.
"an indefinite number of generations"
synonyms: vague, ill-defined, unclear, loose, general, imprecise, inexact, nebulous, blurred, fuzzy, hazy, confused, obscure, ambiguous, equivocal, doubtful, dubious
"a word with an indefinite meaning"

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Apr 2018, 21:06
I thought they were given 'indefinite leave to remain' - if they had been given full citizenship then they wouldn't have to prove anything.
I say again, they weren't "given" citizenship. They were born with it. In those days moving from Jamaica to Britain mattered as much in citizenship terms as moving from Bodmin to Birmingham does today.

I agree that "indefinite" means "at whim", like my "multiple indefinite B1/B2" US visa that got cancelled one day.

Highway1
23rd Apr 2018, 21:28
I say again, they weren't "given" citizenship. They were born with it. In those days moving from Jamaica to Britain mattered as much in citizenship terms as moving from Bodmin to Birmingham does today.


Not sure you are correct there. As I understand it the problem has arisen because most of the Windrush migrants kept their Caribbean citizenship and passports which had 'indefinite leave to remain' status. Had they applied for a UK Passport and citizenship then none of these problems would have occurred.

ORAC
24th Apr 2018, 06:29
I say again, they weren't "given" citizenship. They were born with it. In those days moving from Jamaica to Britain mattered as much in citizenship terms as moving from Bodmin to Birmingham does today.
Not true. As I have previously posted there are various categories of British passport holders with differing rights of entry and residence in the UK.

The acts which particularly pertains in this case are the Commonwealth Immigrants Act of 1968, passed by the then Labour government with Conservative opposition support; and the 1971 Immigration Act passed to prepare for entry to the then EEC - I presume mainly at the urging of the other members worried about mass immigration through the UK to the continent....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Immigrants_Act_1968

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_1971

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_passport

Dan_Brown
1st May 2018, 19:01
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/exclusive-briton-who-has-never-left-the-uk-is-ordered-to-move-to-uganda-by-bungling-home-office-bosses-despite-being-born-in-shrewsbury/ar-AAwA0sm?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=SK2MDHP

An MP was on the local radio last night and the discussion touch on the young and inexperience of some individuals at the HO. One career bureaucrat, with a degree in something from the HO,was asked "who was the PM during the first world war?" the response was "Margret Thatcher". Sums it up really.

chopper2004
2nd May 2018, 12:47
Any thoughts on Amber quitting and her new replacement (former banker) and son of a Pakistani shop owner? Good PR spin there have to admit equality and all that.

cheers

ORAC
2nd May 2018, 12:55
Already covered on the UK politics thread.

ORAC
2nd May 2018, 12:59
Home Office screws up - nobody dead. NHS screws up - up to 270 dead.

Be interesting to see if the second gets as much attention as the first.

larssnowpharter
2nd May 2018, 20:26
Not sure if ' nobody is dead'. If the various reports are true, some have been denied NHS treatment.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd May 2018, 12:28
Home Office screws up - nobody dead.
I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that.

G-CPTN
3rd May 2018, 20:46
Grandmother allowed re-entry after 8 years in Jamaica (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43998134/windrush-grandmother-allowed-re-entry-after-8-years-in-jamaica).

Dan_Brown
13th May 2018, 09:12
Cracked more likely.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/?s=crack+pipe+at+home+office

I'm sure DNA analysis will find the culphit.

Krystal n chips
23rd May 2018, 14:45
When in doubt...blame the paperwork.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/23/ex-mayor-of-ipswich-inga-lockington-denied-citizenship-after-almost-40-years-in-uk

Krystal n chips
28th Jun 2018, 08:41
Be nice, and fitting, if those awarded a bonus for meeting their immigration targets, not that such ever existed according to Amber prior to her departure, had to be paid back by those responsible for the incarceration of innocent people.......now wouldn't it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/28/wrongful-detention-cost-21m-as-immigration-staff-chased-bonuses