Military short of 800 pilots?

[UAV689]

According to this NAO report. I didnt think there was as many as 800 pilots at full strength anyway!

Britain's armed forces are "significantly" understaffed in critical areas - including a shortfall of more than 2,000 engineers and 800 pilots, according to Whitehall's spending watchdog.

In all, more than 8,200 regulars are needed to bridge what the National Audit Office (NAO) describes as the "largest gap in a decade".

As of January, the country's full-time military was operating at 5.7% below target, according to the NAO.

Around 2,400 more engineers are needed, most of them as weapons engineers in the Royal Navy, 700 intelligence analysts and 800 pilots - especially in the RAF.

The NAO also identified 102 trades where there are not enough trained regulars to cover operational tasks without cancelling leave or training.

Problem areas include engineering, intelligence, logistics, pilots, communications and medical.

The NAO report criticised the Ministry of Defence's reliance on young recruits in lower ranks to develop and be trained over time.

A soldier from the 1st Battalion Royal Regiment Fusiliers leaves the security of the camp walls to conduct a dawn foot patrol in the Nahr-e Saraj district, Helmand Province, Afghanistan after leaving base Sterga 2. PRESS ASSOCIATION Photo. Picture date: Saturday October, 5, 2013. See PA story DEFENCE Afghanistan. Photo credit should read: Ben Birchall/PA Wire
Image:
The Ministry of Defence says the military has enough to meet operational requirements
This has not closed the gaps quickly enough, the NAO said, adding that a 24% shortfall in the number of regular recruits between 2016 and 2017 had worsened the situation.

Meanwhile, the percentage of those leaving the armed forces voluntarily has increased from 3.8% a year in March 2010 to 5.6% in December 2017.


But new demands, such as the increasing risk of cyber and electronic attacks, will "add to the pressure to increase capability in some trades that already have shortfalls" the report added.

Meg Hillier, chairwoman of the Public Accounts Committee, said: "In these uncertain times, it is more critical than ever that Britain has a well-staffed armed forces with the technical know-how to handle threats to national security.

"But the NAO report shows that the armed forces are woefully below compliment, especially in crucial areas like intelligence and engineering."

Ms Hillier said: "Without more innovative methods to attract and retain staff, the UK risks continuing with big gaps in capability and overstretching already hard working and crucial service personnel," she said.

NAO chief Sir Amyas Morse said: "The department needs to fundamentally change its approach to develop skilled personnel and address the long-established shortfalls that persist."

An MoD Spokesman said recruiting and retaining talent was a "top priority" and there were many schemes to attract and keep skilled personnel.

[Training Risky]

I heard there was a large tranche of Tucano Pilot Officers made redundant from the RAF a few years ago who may like another bite at the cherry...?

Problem is, they may have found other jobs by now!

[bafanguy]

An MoD Spokesman said recruiting and retaining talent was a "top priority" and there were many schemes to attract and keep skilled personnel.

They should ask their American counterparts how THEIR efforts are going resolving the same issue. :E

[Bob Viking]

...money is NOT the answer.

Yeah right.

BV

[Training Risky]

Maybe chasing AAC pilots for a bit of chickenfeed flying pay which was supposedly paid in error was not the best plan?

Seeing as the RAO and NAO punitive action against them was the final straw in the PVR deluge!!

[Clockwork Mouse]

That nice Mr Corbyn must be pleased as he has frequently pressed for reductions in the armed forces. Of course if he ever gets into power we won’t need armed forces as we will never enter into combat.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

BV, got to say, money wasn't the answer for me...!

I mean, within sensible limits. They could have offered to pay me £150-200k a year and I'd probably have considered it. But even an old-school FRI3 payment just isn't enough when the job starts to grind so much it's affecting your health.

There were a dozen things they could have done to encourage me to stay, but it seems no-one could be bothered; from my Flt Cdr, up through the station hierarchy, and similarly through the Manning machine as well.

I remember saying this to an ex-boss, whose reply was that the "dozen things they could do to make me stay are probably different from the next guy, and we can't do a dozen things for everyone." Thing is, I think that there'd probably be a lot of overlap there, and even doing one thing for some people might have been nice.

Everyone I know who's still in is speaking to people who've left about jobs and so on; and I mean every pilot I served with. 800 short now is probably looking pretty good compared to a few years down the line.

[heights good]

The perfect storm of AFPS 05/15 vs 75/15 in looming.

Once those that are currently caught in the AFPS 75 pension trap leave at their option point, the entire military will see people doing their return of service and then leaving.

Waiting 37 yrs for an immediate pension just isnt going to cut it for 99% of people....

[MechGov]

It might not be about the money, but money is the answer. Better pay, better pensions and less penny pinching. It might not solve everyone’s issues but it will keep more people for longer.

[Haraka]

As an 'Int O" who was attracted elsewhere, I did note that nobody ever from the posting Admin ever called me in and asked:
"Why are you leaving?"

On another occasion a "poster" in the West Country confided in me that he had a "difficulty" with my career profile , since he was not cleared in to know what I did!

[JliderPilot]

Agree with the comments here, when I left there was no questions asked by anyone in the command chain. Which did surprise me after 23yrs service and consistent above average ratings.

Many that I know would consider rejoining as a civvie to fly in the military. It has been done in the Chinook fleet with some instructional posts funded by Boeing. Why not with other platforms?

[sharpend]

It is not just pilots. I'm told that engineers on the Voyager, once they get their necessary licence, are poached by Air Tanker. Cannot understand why :)

[sharpend]

Actually, when I joined the RAF in 1964 I have no idea what I was paid and did not care, All I knew was that it was sufficient for beer and a little Triumph Spitfire and, importantly, a nice aeroplane to fly very regularly. All over the World too.

[The Nip]

Actually, when I joined the RAF in 1964 I have no idea what I was paid and did not care, All I knew was that it was sufficient for beer and a little Triumph Spitfire and, importantly, a nice aeroplane to fly very regularly. All over the World too.

Sharpened,

I am sure that is the case for many people, me included. I also include the reason why people used to join the military. It wasn't a job, it was a lifestyle and a job for life, career.

You would be housed, fed, clothed and looked after. In return you gave your life for Queen and country. At the end your career, you would be given priority on council housing list and a pension. Fair deal.

As others have mentioned many times, most if not all of the 'lifestyle' aspects have disappeared.

Some will say it was better then. No it was different and today's recruits have a different outlook and expectations. Good luck to them.

[Bob Viking]

I have the greatest respect for you but I’m afraid your last post comes across with all the smugness of a fully paid up member of the baby boomer generation (or perhaps slightly before then?!).

You were doubtless able to buy a fine house for a relative pittance when you reached the end of your service. That is no longer the case. Young pilots nowadays will be lucky to purchase a boxy, new build 3 bed semi. That is why they are forced to look elsewhere whether they are loyal to the crown or not.

As an example. In my time alone (18.5 years in the RAF) a Flt Lt pilots salary (basing it on myself as a PAS Flt Lt compared to my contemporary) has roughly doubled. The average house price has outstripped that rise by a fair way.

Whereas in 1999 the average house price was perhaps 2-3 times the average salary it is now 7-8 times (these numbers are approximate but not far off).

So, whilst I appreciate your position and light hearted response I would suggest some empathy is required from, not just yourself, but anyone of your vintage when they attempt to make sense of the feelings of the modern generation.

I’m not trying to be a d1ck but it needed saying.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

BV, indeed, as a flt it i bought our last home before my pay topped £20k so the 2-3 multiple was correct. About 5 years later my house price rose at the same rate as my monthly pay. When we sold in February an Air Cdre made an offer but could not raise the mortgage.

Everything changes.

[charliegolf]

Waiting 37 yrs for an immediate pension just isnt going to cut it for 99% of people....

Isnt that what 99% of people in the UK do?

CG

[Bob Viking]

This thread isn’t about those people though is it?

As parlous as the pension situation is in Britain, it isn’t really relevant to this conversation.

BV

[charliegolf]

Quite right Bob- I just couldn't resist. Self-administered talking to complete!

CG

[glad rag]

Actually, when I joined the RAF in 1964 I have no idea what I was paid and did not care, All I knew was that it was sufficient for beer and a little Triumph Spitfire and, importantly, a nice aeroplane to fly very regularly. All over the World too.

When I joined up the benefit was 3 :O 3 whole meals a day.

Yes, I kid you not.

That was great until I discovered

1.Bints
2.Beer

Had to realign my financial paradigms after that!

[Heathrow Harry]

UK is not far from full employment

The military are clearly not a govt priority

The chance of "failure" is high

Better to go into finance........ live in C London, great lifestyle, little discipline......

[Pontius Navigator]

GR, while it was not a benefit for which I joined, I think that was a pension of £401 pa at 38, 20 years hence. Once in of course it was unlimited chips with everything and the NS WRAF certainly had their share.

[ValMORNA]

PN,


Assuming my reading of the initials is correct, were there WRAF National Service conscripts?

[heights good]

Isnt that what 99% of people in the UK do?

CG

Indeed.

99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,

can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,

they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,

they have tenants rights,

Given the correct tools to do the job,

are compensated for nights away,

have houses fit to live in,

can have a private life,

can keep work and home life 100% separate,

have hotels paid for by their company up-front,

can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,

can plan their life more than a month in advance,

can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,

Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,

Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,

are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,

are not sent on bollocks courses,

can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,

can make decisions for themselves,

can provide their children a stable home life,

2 schools for their children’s entire education,

attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,

Never be asked to take a life,

and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....

[Pontius Navigator]

ValM, now that I don't know, I just assumed, but now you mention it, probably not. I do know they liked chips though.

[BEagle]

BV, I suspect that, in many parts of the UK, the salary:house price ratio is even worse than your figures indicate.

Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.

I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.

2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....:rolleyes:

Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...

[Bob Viking]

You’re right about house prices. Very base dependent. They’re not cheap anywhere though. 4.5 times your salary on a mortgage doesn’t get you much. And you need a decent deposit and cash for stamp duty (potentially).

I can only speak for the FJ world but I’ll say it before someone else pipes up. It’s not the airlines that are the big draw nowadays. It’s the sunnier climes and jobs flying FJs on tax free salaries that has got everyone talking.

Add in the perfect storm of pension changes, flying pay changes and jobs in the Middle East and I suspect your average FJ pilot of the future will complete two tours and then call it a day around about their 10 year point. A few years in the ME to get a pot of cash to replace the gratuity that was still ten years away, buy a house (or two) and then work on a second career and pension pot elsewhere. They could still only be in their 30’s.

It’s sad and I think it’s a real shame but I’m afraid it’s all of the MODs own doing.

For me it all started when 170 students were made redundant in 2011. It wasn’t just the students that learnt a valuable lesson. All QFIs and current frontline pilots also got the message loud and clear that loyalty had just become a one way street.

There are some (me included) who still feel the overall package is good enough to stay. Just as I mentioned to Sharpend that he needs to empathise with the younger generation, current PAS and senior officers also need to empathise though. The overall experience I’ve had, which financially doesn’t stack up against someone who served twenty years prior to myself, is still better than that on offer currently.

I don’t see a lack of ‘Queen and Country’ loyalty and guys still have the enthusiasm to do the job. They just live in a much harsher reality where the skills they possess as a military pilot present far more lucrative opportunities elsewhere.

As I said, many of us that were serving in 2011 were blinkered enough to think life was rosy until the cull. Those that have joined since were probably never even issued the rose tinted specs.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

I don’t see a lack of ‘Queen and Country’ loyalty and guys still have the enthusiasm to do the job. They just live in a much harsher reality where the skills they possess as a military pilot present far more lucrative opportunities elsewhere.

There was a perceptive view, upto 20 years back, that identified the pull and push factors in Service life, the young singlie enjoys the life, the excitement, detachments and employments and will put up with this turbulence as that was why he joined. Then, with maturity, marriage, children, financial responsibilities and a desire for stability, the earlier attractions recede. He no longer wants that turbulence and unpredictability.

Having recognised the differences did they make appropriate adjustments? I think the executive streaming was one attempt but I don't think the non-executive stream got the stability they sought.

[RetiredBA/BY]

BV, I suspect that, in many parts of the UK, the salary:house price ratio is even worse than your figures indicate.

Quite how anyone posted to the A330 at Brize will ever be able to afford a house in this part of the world is beyond me. 2 salaries needed, which is one reason local housing estates are so jammed with 2 cars per house - they were never built with that in mind.

I bought my house in 1984 for £36K; the inflation calculator indicates that it should now be worth £116K. But the actual figure is 2 1/2 times the calculated value.... Which is NOT something to crow about - it's an utter scandal. RAF salary as a Flt Lt with 8 years seniority was adequate to have a mortgage and a reasonable car, but there wasn't much left at the end of the month - so heaven knows how people can manage these days.

2 salaries? One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her....:rolleyes:

Add the absurd house price factor to that the capped pay 'rises' of the past few years and it's hardly surprising that the RAF will have huge difficulty retaining anyone who has had the sense to work towards an ATPL and TR, so they'll be off to the airlines PDQ. Although airline salaries aren't what they once were either...


Airline salaries aren’t that bad though!

200k for a long haul BA captain, 100k for a Thomson FO. ( both flying shiny new 787s) So where can you make that sort of salary in the RAF ? ( unless , of course, you get to the very top flying a mahogany bomber at MOD ,)

[Fareastdriver]

Maybe the RAF should go back to the old short service commissions. Not the 5/8/12 of the old DC (B) but a fixed term of say twelve years. They would have to get their training organised to get productive service out of them but they would know that they will have been taught to fly modern equipment which would ease there way into civilian life at a certain point.

As they are not going to be VSIs there is not lot of point of them spending a long time at Cranditz so you can go back to the old short ITS course. Get the flying training out of the way in two years or so then on a twelve year stint you will have them up front for about nine years. You will not have wasted training by them doing staff courses or administrative posts so their flying will repay the investment.

It is a kind of 'Specialist Aircrew' from signing up. You could also dispense with all the requirements for university education as there seem to be enough military pilots around the world flying very complicated bits of kit without that benefit.

A young, fit, naturally gifted pilot joining at eighteen knowing that he/she should be pat for an airline job at thirty.

We've been there before.

[Easy Street]

I think fareastdriver’s idea is probably the right one in the situation we now find ourselves. But...

This is only because we are so far down the road of civilianisation and ‘FTRSisation’ of so much of the second- and third-line, both air and ground trades, starting with depth maintenance and now encompassing QFIs in the flying training system and Voyager crews at Brize. Even tactics development jobs at the AWC and requirements jobs at Abbey Wood are being contracted out be done by the host of QWIs working for Inzpire. No doubt it’s great for the bottom line in the short and medium term, but the long term effect is that the remaining regulars get utterly thrashed in a succession of front-line tours and leave after getting cheesed off with all the time away. This is what has been hurting the USAF and it is almost certainly a significant factor in the problem highlighted by the NAO. Eventually this model will come crashing down around us, as future leavers will not have had any of the wider experience that makes the previous generation capable of filling these contractorised roles without additional training.

Trouble is, one of the NAO’s recommendations is to do more of this civilianisation thing...

[Basil]

Fareastdriver, Looks good to me.
I left school at 15 Got an engineering apprenticeship (TF!) 3yrs MN in hot noisy engine rooms (except around Helsinki in Winter when it was comfy) and, thanks to the inability of JFK & Kruschev to play nicely together, was accepted for RAF pilot training. How lucky was that?
I still raise a glass to those two.

You do not need a huge education to be a pilot, either mil or civ.

If you're going on to VSO then that's different.

[Wensleydale]

One of the chaps on my VC10 course was a first tourist with a young wife and was posted to 10 Sqn. At some early social gathering some old dinosaur's wife said to his wife "You must come to our coffee mornings" - to which she answered "No, I'll be at work". Then followed a look of horror from the old bat..."Work?". It seems that an officer's wife who had a job was an alien concept to her

Back at Lossie in the early 1980s, My Sqn OC called a 3 line whip at 1600 on a Friday - all to attend including the resting QRA crew. He demanded to know why, after his wife had volunteered the Sqn wives for flowers for that night's dining in night, had very few wives turned up that afternoon to "carry out this duty". He seemed amazed to be told that the wives did not come under his wife's command (nor their husbands), and was taken aback when asked if his wife had written to the local employers asking for the wives to be excused work that afternoon. It was interesting to note though, that those whose wives regularly attended the mess for wives social functions etc tended to get better ACR write ups than those whose wives didn't.

[Pontius Navigator]

WD, and you forgot to mention that Mrs Fg Off could not mix with Mrs Sqn Ldr.

It at a nearby stn wives were required to attend a practice Royal lunch, but not the main event.

Or do you remember one period, about two weeks of intense activity, when Chris Booth said he had to go shopping that evening as they had run out of bread. He was quickly informed that we were all running out of food as our cars were on base and most wives had no wheels.

[Fareastdriver]

I cannot remember many wives working in my 1960-1978 service. Those that did ran away with their boss.

[BEagle]

At our so-called meet-and-greet at the Bucc OCU, where we were totally ignored by the staff, a snooty woman asked the wife of one of our number "...and which course are you on?".

Mistake...BIG mistake. She'd asked a rather fiery red-headed Scots lass, who explained in words of half a syllable that SHE wasn't on any course, but her husband was starting his Buccaneer navigator course!

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, really? Of course many wives were ex-teachers or nurses and in the 60s nurses and marriage didn't go together and I guess teaching posts were scarce, especially one requiring a car. Similarly WRAF had to retire so they took may have become unemployed.

Yes, on reflection you may well have been right with 'wives of' being marooned on the patch or caravan site. Remember the good old days on no quarter for officers under 25, quarters, frozen and unfrozen lists, points etc and no quarter for dets under 6 months. I was lucky, my poster juggled my courses and postings to give me 6 months and my overseas tour as a batchelor gave me the requisite points. Yes, things were better in those days :)

[Corporal Clott]

200k for a long haul BA captain, 100k for a Thomson FO. ( both flying shiny new 787s) So where can you make that sort of salary in the RAF ? ( unless , of course, you get to the very top flying a mahogany bomber at MOD ,)

200k in what currency?!!

Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%.

The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you.

So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me:
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-2017/All-work-and-no-play-Work-life-balance-Pilot-A

As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other.

CPL Clott

[BEagle]

I recall chatting to a chum of mine who'd left the RAF and was then a Virgin FO on the 747. He was moaning that he wasn't entitled to a free parking pass at both Heathrow and Gatwick, only one or the other....and either had to leave his car and take the company bus or pay to park at the 'other' airport. Such hardship, he claimed...

"So when did you last do weekend SDO?", I asked him.

[Lima Juliet]

Beags

If he is anything like my Airline buddies then every weekend is a working weekend during the summer months! :eek:

[Lima Juliet]

@heights good

I thought I would have a go at your list to try and add a bit of balance:

99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,
Some aircrew that have spent much of their careers at the same MOB - esoecially if it is the only one that operates a particular type. Brize, Odiham, Benson, Waddington and previously Lyneham all had their ‘mafia’ that rarely moved. Plus now we have Force HQs there are also staff jobs in the same place

can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,
But the flip side to this is that you can also be given your notice within 1-2 months. The commercial sector is not known for being nice when the company’s chips are down

they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,
Yeah, right. My better half works in the City and if she told her boss he was crap then she would be out of a job in a month.

they have tenants rights,
To what?

Given the correct tools to do the job,
Only if the company can afford it. Plenty of corporate manslaughter cases if you Google them - one of the first in the UK was against P&O Ferries and there have been plenty in the railway business

are compensated for nights away,
What like LSA, Overnight Subsistence and Op Allowance?

have houses fit to live in,
The same houses we can buy and live in?

can have a private life,
I haven’t “lived on the patch” since 2002

can keep work and home life 100% separate,
In the Commercial world then you are expected to answer calls and tele-conferences any time of the day or night

have hotels paid for by their company up-front,
Last time I stayed in a HRG Central Hotel Booking Service hotel it was paid for?

can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,
Yes, and if the company doesn’t like it they will show you the door!

can plan their life more than a month in advance,
Have you ever heard of an Airline Roster? You are often a slave to it just 4 weeks hence.

can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,
Yup, got me on that. The trust shown by the Armed Forces policies on its personnel is exceptionally poor

Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,
See first answer - plenty have stayed at or close to their MoBs

Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,
Average posting is 3 years with some going to 5 these days. Getting a posting to another Sqn or the FHQ at the same location also more likely.

are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,
Lots of this goes on in the Commercial sector - people get hired and fired quickly and the rest have to pick up the pieces

are not sent on bollocks courses,
Oh yes they are. HSE, D&I and all that is just as prevalent in the civil sector

can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,
The only places you can’t go as a Service person are probably places that you would want the Security Flt to guve you some tips on anyway!!

can make decisions for themselves,
I make my own decisions, why can’t you?

can provide their children a stable home life,
Continuity of Education Allowance can keep your kids geographically stable, also during GCSE and A-Levels then preferential treatment can be given. Or you could do what many in the country do - commute. Average commute in the UK is 1 hr with over 4 million workers commuting 2 hrs. The Forces are spoiled with some of the short commuting options they are given

2 schools for their children’s entire education,
With CEA help you could get a Prep School followed by a Boarding School - and if you move back to the area they can become a day pupil

attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,
Look at the Corporal Clott post with the link to the BALPA blog. There is a story on there from an airline pilot that missed his daughter’s wedding. I would say that is unheard of in the military

Never be asked to take a life,
Unless you work for the police or you are an animal vet!

and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....
Again, Policemen, Firemen, Paramedics, private contractors all have to deal with this sort of stuff

Just sayin’ :cool:

[RetiredBA/BY]

200k in what currency?!!

Even a long-haul Trg Captain doesn’t make £200k, probably more like £120k to £140k. Then they have to contribute to their pension unlike the Armed Forces who contribute 52% of our wages into AFPS - so a Flt Lt earning £50k gets £26k extra put into the pension pot per year. I think BA have just upped their employer contributions from 9% to 15% but that is still well short of our 52%.

The only way you will earn mega bucks in flying is to go to the Middle East for some tax free salary action - but then that is not for everyone (I politely declined some years ago). They also will get their monies worth out of you.

So, if you are thinking of going down the route of an airline pilot career, the work-life balance isn’t really any rosier than the forces - have a read of the BALPA blog if you don’t believe me:
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-2017/All-work-and-no-play-Work-life-balance-Pilot-A

As ever, we all have to make the choices that fit our own personal circumstances, but I don’t believe that airline flying is this wonderful Utopia with mega wages. It will be a job with many frustrations like any other.

CPL Clott
GBP , first hand from a very close relative!

Been down the airline route, nearly 25 years, after 12 years RAF. Never regretted it for a moment!

[The B Word]

I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):

British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!

People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.

So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.

I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/air-force-in-crisis-part-iii-dear-boss-its-all-about-the-culture/

[Fareastdriver]

British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools

As an offshore helicopter captain in China in 2004 I wouldn't have got out of bed for that.

[[email protected]]

From the recruitment paragraph in B word's post- If you are successful you are invited to the next stage which you then go online and book. Day 1: Maths, Verbal reasoning and 2 commuter based skills tests. commuter based skills test - excellent:ok: Is that long-haul or short-haul commuting?:)

[The B Word]

Crab - brilliant, good spot :D:D:D

Although I would have thought that extreme ‘commuter skills’ are essential for LHR, LGW, LCY and STN!

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/130/590x/secondary/185762.jpg

But it raises a good point - many of my ex-mil airline mates end up spending some of their time sitting in their car at Motorway Service Stations during rush hour when on standby as their base is too far from their chosen home (normally Lincs/Cambs/Notts) to make the required reporting time. Not exactly great quality of life when doing that!

[Ascoteer]

It's interesting hearing both sides of the debate. I left the mob 18 months ago and into a broadly similar civilian flying role. Some of the 'money' reasons for leaving at option point and not waiting for full term:

- A real terms 12% pay cut since 2008
- Reduction and removal of allowances (IA, reductions in mileage allowance, 20% reduction in most subsistence allowance)
- Enforced pension change from AFPS75 to AFPS15. Although the pension is still good, this change in itself costs upward of £100k. Not to mention the RPI to CPI change!
- Housing issues. Housing works if you're married, or you're single. If you want to live with your partner and not be married, it's of little consequence to the package, especially when you are South East based. 'FAM' is unknown and not likely to be better.

The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.

Outside of money, stability is a huge issue with the RAF, with no roster or schedule you're effectively on standby 24/7. You can't plan dinner with friends. You can't really go away for the weekend. You're regularly pinged last minute for detachments or last minute trips. Things change...a lot, and often not due to the user, but due to inefficiencies in planning and tasking stages. Posting stability has improved, but there is no guarantee you won't get posted to the other side of the country for 3 years.

After leaving I'm on a comfortable 6 figures (not adding pension or allowances or bonuses), work up to 14 days a month, live in the same area, don't go into work if I'm not flying and don't have to deal with the day-to-day Service annoyances (JPA, Imprests, CCS, SDO, JOD, GPCs, IRT, RSOI).

Sure, I miss seeing my RAF buddies daily, but most realise that the grass IS greener, unless you are one of the few where the RAF really fits (children in private school, married quarter, PA etc, or you've escaped the frontline and work mon-fri). I had an awesome time, met awesome people, but glad I didn't listen to those who have never actually experienced life 'outside', and seem determined to convince people that ever-reducing Ts & Cs and ever-increasing workload is normal (although I'm sure that may be the case for some airlines as well!).

[The B Word]

The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.

No fallacy. Have a read here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412642/AFPS_2012_valuation_report_final_24_Feb_2015.pdf

The bit you need to read is:
Employer contribution rate payable for the implementation period: 52.4% of pensionable pay for officers and 49.6% for other ranks (equivalent to 50.4% overall)

So it’s not made up, it’s a fact.

Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works.

Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum:

Normally the hours target is between 86 and 90 hrs, and BA dont care how that work is done so long as its all covered, so it could be a 9 day Australia (44hrs), 5 day HKG (24hrs) and a 4 day LAX (20hrs) or 5-6 x 15 hr E Coast trips depending on your seniority

There is no typical month, theoretically you could do a months work in 12 days by doing 4 x 3 day LAS, but if you went to LOS/CAI you'd be away 22 days a month. Luckily for all it doesnt work like that so most end up with a fair mixture.

In terms of time off downroute the furthest 24 hrs LAS and shortest 48 is SFO, nowhere is more than 48 except where frequency or schedule demands it.

To me that doesn’t sound like the grass is greener at all? :confused:

[Bob Viking]

I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.

That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.

I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.

BV

[roving]

In the US reservists still play a vital role in the US Air Force.

The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets.

Two US Air National Guard Wings are to be equipped with the Lockheed Martin F-35.

[Ascoteer]

No fallacy. Have a read here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412642/AFPS_2012_valuation_report_final_24_Feb_2015.pdf

The bit you need to read is:


So it’s not made up, it’s a fact.

Also, that roster you talk about is a killer in my humble opinion. Pretty much every time I want to meet up with any of my airline mates it’s “My roster hasn’t come out yet” or “My roster is out and I can’t swap”. Whereas in the mob you can normally do a deal with the programmer to get what you need - you may have to take a bit of pain, like a night in the Q shed, but it works.

Does the 14 days include standby duties or sims? Also, I’m guessing that is long haul so how many nights away? This is a BA Long Haul pilot explaining their schedule on another forum:



To me that doesn’t sound like the grass is greener at all? :confused:

The point was: not many people would actually choose to put 51% of their salary into a pension pot, and most only large amounts for tax break purposes. I don’t won’t to get into the finer details of investments, by much better to have the money and choose what to do with it, rather than have Whitehall pull the rug out from under you.

Looks like you’re a/was aFJ driver, so probably very different programming wise. One day’s notice of a 6 week detachment or a week’s trip is not uncommon for many others in Rotary/ME world.

If the RAF works for you, great, but I think the younger generation, for reasons mentioned above, feel a lack of loyalty to them by the Service and will vote with their feet accordingly.

[Fareastdriver]

There is a lot more young people paying to get their civil licences than there are young people joining the Air Force and learning to fly for free.

[hunterboy]

Would it be possible to clarify the 51% into the pension bit? Is it not a FS scheme? Each year buys a fraction of your FS?
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF.

[WingsofRoffa]

As a pilot in the sift for 2 months now I would happily fill one of the 800 spaces!

Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog.

[cargosales]

Indeed.

99% of the UK population stay in the same location for their entire careers,

can hand in their notice if they are fed up with the job,

they can tell their boss his leadership style is crap,

they have tenants rights,

Given the correct tools to do the job,

are compensated for nights away,

have houses fit to live in,

can have a private life,

can keep work and home life 100% separate,

have hotels paid for by their company up-front,

can refuse to do anything they are asked to do,

can plan their life more than a month in advance,

can choose to live where they want, are trusted to wipe their own backside,

Have a credit rating that doesnt have a plethora of addresses on it,

Dont have to move house every 2 yrs,

are not working 2 jobs but getting paid for one,

are not sent on bollocks courses,

can travel anywhere in the world without telling an adult,

can make decisions for themselves,

can provide their children a stable home life,

2 schools for their children’s entire education,

attend every wedding/birthday/funeral,

Never be asked to take a life,

and perhaps most of all never get shot at or put directly in harms way at the whim of a politician....

Sorry but from the average civvie's point of view / employment status, that list of stuff is complete rubbish. And incredibly patronising towards the 99% of civvies for whom it is just not true.

[heights good]

I think some of us approach it from the standpoint of a FJ pilot and some from that of an ME pilot. Those are two very different starting points and will lead to very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad.

That is why I don’t pretend to know anything outside of the FJ world. Even then, I am nowadays constrained further into the FJ QFI world.

I’m sure you’re both right and both wrong all at the same time. It’s all relative.

BV

And, not everyone wants to fly when they leave so 9-5 Mon-Fri is a very real prospect. There are other jobs besides flying 😀

[heights good]

Sorry but from the average civvie's point of view / employment status, that list of stuff is complete rubbish. And incredibly patronising towards the 99% of civvies for whom it is just not true.

Would you be good enough to elaborate?

[RetiredBA/BY]

I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):

British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!

People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.

So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.

I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/air-force-in-crisis-part-iii-dear-boss-its-all-about-the-culture/


Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle!

My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60!

So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me!

Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command.

If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifesty and future, dont knock it !

[RetiredBA/BY]

I think your close relative might be being a bit economical with the truth. Here is the current pay scales (Feb 18 and Mar 18):

British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

Also, for those wanting to be an airline skipper having left the armed forces, it looks like a long-haul captain takes at least 15 years. That is not even a training captain where the mega money is!

People leaving the armed forces as pilots and looking for rock star wages in the airline industry are going to be disappointed. I grant the wages are good but no where near the £200,000 you are hinting at - most make about half that if they are lucky. The link also shows the pension scheme of 15% employer (ie. BA) contribution and 6%, which is 21% total. As others have said the Armed Forces Pension Scheme contributes 51% of the basic armed forces salary into the pot - so a top rate Sqn Ldr on £60,000 would grow their pension pot by £31,000 a year without personal contribution, plus will in future be getting ~£20,000 RRP(F) ‘flying pay’. The package overall is £111,000. For a BA pilot they would be on say £80,000, the company would contribute £12,000 but the individual would need to contribute £4,800 out of their wages - the total pension contribution would be roughly half that of the armed forces one and so to make it equivalent the individual would need to contribute another £15,000 from their wages. So with even the BA allowance package being close to the £20,000 RRP(F), then overall the airline pilot would be at best close to his military colleague.

So that is why I don’t think money is the issue. The issue for the military person is the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ - a general feeling of lack of trust, a loss of pride, a lost feeling of value and an uncertain future if they are rotary or fast jet in that this is generally a young persons game that few want to keep doing in their mid to late forties. That is why military pilots leave for the airlines in my opinion.

I think this article is nearer the truth https://warontherocks.com/2018/03/air-force-in-crisis-part-iii-dear-boss-its-all-about-the-culture/


Some of you guys just don’t get it, there is a whole, huge, world outside the RAF with a WAY better lifestyle!

My close relative is a long haul training captain who made OVER 200k according to his P60!

So the long haul senior captain on 178K, as in your scale, plus 20 % training looks good to me!

Frankly as a former line training Captain myself, my extra pay for training ( and as a ex RAF QFI,, not FJ, just JP, ) was money for old rope! Very satisfying and rewarding though, to help get our younger, keener guys prepare for command.

If you have not experienced the outside world, airline flying PLUS the chance to run your own business and determine your OWN lifestle and determine your OWN future, YOURSELF, dont knock it !

SORRY, seems it is a double, uneditable, double post!

[The B Word]

Not trying to knock it but I am trying to add a bit of balance. For some it works in the RAF and for some it doesn’t, the same for the airlines, some love it and some don’t having jumped ship. I just fear that some of our people jump at it with their eyes wide shut and so that’s why it’s important to lay all of the facts out in the open - warts and all for both sides. There must be something in it given the number of aircrew I hear that are asking to rejoin in recent months.

comme ci comme ca

[m0nkfish]

I think the numbers speak for themselves. If the military is undermanned to the tune of 800 pilots then clearly the grass actually is greener on the other side. For some, life is good and they still enjoy the job, but clearly there are not enough people who enjoy it to keep the manning numbers balanced.

I don't see how things will improve in the future as the system seems geared now to work better for shorter engagement periods. I was always surprised how many students were already calculating their options and laying the ground work for their next job.

IMHO allowing pilots to switch to a reserve role would be a good start to help bridge the flow and maybe even encourage some people back. I would quite happily return for 3 days a week and supplement the reduced income with my own business, I'd even suck up some time on Q.

Otherwise, money does talk, but I don't think there is the appetite to offer a genuinely enticing FRI. The small amount they offered me to stay was less than one months salary in the job I took up after leaving. I'm sure there was some uptake, but if those people were staying anyway then its really money down the drain in terms of actually retaining people.

[The B Word]

The numbers aren’t because the grass is greener but for more reasons than that. The NAO report spells out some of them. Also, it is ‘aircrew’ not just pilots making up the 800, again buried in the document. The leaving rate is not much higher than normal, but there are 3 reasons why we are in this predicament.

1. We bought a flying training system for the needs of SDSR10 - the same requirement where we sacked 170 baby pilots, stopped WSO training and slowed down WSOp training. They are still delivering the same numbers for 2010 at the moment. Then we had SDSR15 where we were told to take 2 new Typhoon sqns, take in P8 and double the size of our RPAS fleet with Protector. That was great news but there was no extra money to increase the training schools.

2. We have recruited shed loads of baby pilots in the last couple of years, but due to point 1 we can’t train them all. If we trained them all overnight then the best part of 40% of the deficit would be gone.

3. We, the UK, have sold a bunch of aircraft with RAF training courses that have made the situation even worse for some fleets!

So the current exit rate is not the reason why we are where we are. It is effectively a series of decisions and circumstances that has influenced the current situation. If we keep peddling the news that the grass is greener when it probably isn’t (it’s just different with different challenges and opportunities) then we run the risk of people leaving for a job that also isn’t really for them.

[VinRouge]

If there were a pay rise commsurate with my anticipated pension at pension point, an opportunity to cash in lump sum gratuity whilst serving, and not having my pension frozen on FTRS, I may have considered staying. But it's not.

Bottom line, to serve past 38, you'd be bonkers. In my case, MoD are getting to keep someone who otherwise they would be paying 12k pension per annum as well as me running the risk of getting hit with income tax if they change the rules on lump sum gratuity. The 5 years salary you lose by an inability to serve to 65 and no option for regulars to take a 60/70/80% contract as you get on in the tooth is another rather major issue for me and considering you will be at the top of your tree, costs you pot a lot of cash at this point. Easily doable, you can still do a 6 monther on a 60% with pre deployment stuff, just not much else!

I have friends in their first summer at a charter who with overtime on shorthaul have turned over 95k in their first year. The sums quoted above do not include the 10-15k in allowances, the tax perks, staff travel, bonuses and actually getting a representative pay rise for what they do. (airline industry 25% Vs 2% for me in the mob over the last decade).

I've had a hoofing time, but so have my mates in the industry, who don't get treated like they are committing fraud every time they claim subsOh, that's right they dont claim subs, it's given to them like we used to get.

The MoD needs to wake up and smell the coffee, if it wants to retain, STOP penalising reservists by not paying pension as FTRS you cheapskates! You need to pay a much bigger salary post pension point to account for the real world drop in pay you incur by deciding to stay. You need to consider early access to the lump sum and you need to realise that a 50% pension of cock all is still less than the 21% BA pay out over a lifetime of decent wages and a pay rise! It absolutely is about the money, as well as not knowing whether the government are going to continue to cut our benefits past summer, as they can't seem to decide on where the money is coming for to prevent capability cutbacks!

Done the sums, as have most of us. There is close to an 800k disparity between what I will finish up with between leaving at 38 and joining a airline and staying on. And staying on isn't the most lucrative option! The MoD can spin the figures, the pension scheme is nowhere near a 51% contributory. Nowhere near.

[pr00ne]

Roving,

"The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets."

A commonly held but inaccurate view. The RAuxAF flying squadrons, and the RNVR Air branch, were disbanded for two main reasons, one that they were simply running out of aircrew and with the doing away of National Service pilots they would not be able to field even one complete squadron with aircrew! The second was that the 1957 White paper was about to reduce Fighter Command massively in an ill guided rush to missiles, and an accurate recognition that the main Soviet threat to the UK was in intermediate range ballistic missiles, which all the Hunters and Javelins in the world could do nothing to protect against, so another 20 Auxiliary squadrons which would have to be re-equipped and some method of manning them found, was an obvious target. On top of that there was the Conservative mandate to reduce defence expenditure at the same time as spending an absolute fortune developing the thermonuclear weapon.

[Arty Fufkin]

I left about 5 years ago.

51% of my leaving basic, top rate, Flt Lt Salary was less than I made in allowances and overtime in the last year.

Just saying.

[Melchett01]

Would it be possible to clarify the 51% into the pension bit? Is it not a FS scheme? Each year buys a fraction of your FS?
If they are paying 51% of your salary into a pension pot as a lump sump, I would suggest that is exceeding generous and you would be hard pushed to match that in any company outside of the RAF.

I was thinking just the same thing. I could be (probably am) being a bit thick, but I thought our annual pension contribution was calculated on the basis of salary x (years served / 47). So to get to 51% contributions surely you’d have to be serving beyond 23ish years?

[Lima Juliet]

I was thinking just the same thing. I could be (probably am) being a bit thick, but I thought our annual pension contribution was calculated on the basis of salary x (years served / 47). So to get to 51% contributions surely you’d have to be serving beyond 23ish years?

No it’s 51-ish% of your annual salary, not total. Further, until recently it was final salary and now is career-averaging. But it is still one of the best pensions out there - way better than recent company ones that you can get, which are linked to the vagaries of the stock market. My Mrs’s pension has lost the best part of 60% of its value in recent years. One of the reasons why the housing market is a balooning bubble is that many are now investing in bricks and mortar. No need with a Government pension scheme (unless UK PLC goes down the toilet! :eek:)

If there were a pay rise commsurate with my anticipated pension at pension point, an opportunity to cash in lump sum gratuity whilst serving, and not having my pension frozen on FTRS, I may have considered staying.

Yes and I would like Lambo for an MT vehicle...come on, that will never happen. I think the only realistic option is some form of retention payment, not a short-term FRI, for all at 18/40 or 20/40. Either bringing forward the EDP or £20-£30k as a token jesture so that at least you get something for staying.

Bottom line, to serve past 38, you'd be bonkers. In my case, MoD are getting to keep someone who otherwise they would be paying 12k pension per annum as well as me running the risk of getting hit with income tax if they change the rules on lump sum gratuity. The 5 years salary you lose by an inability to serve to 65 and no option for regulars to take a 60/70/80% contract as you get on in the tooth is another rather major issue for me and considering you will be at the top of your tree, costs you pot a lot of cash at this point. Easily doable, you can still do a 6 monther on a 60% with pre deployment stuff, just not much else!

The new Flexible Employment Strategy allows for part-time working. Early days, but it is a possibility.

Your £12k model isn’t quite there in my humble opinion. Firstly, for every year you stay your pension is growing by roughly £1k as by then your career average is starting to flatten. Further, if you go PAS then your earning potential plus all of your salary is pensionable. Last time I looked Level 35 was about £82k, which is all pensionable and equivalent to senior Wg Cdr or Jnr Gp Capt. Also, until recently for Flt Lts there was a £20k transfer bonus (a 2 year measure).

You can serve to at least 70 in FTRS-land if you wish - indeed there is one aircrew mate that fits that right now. :eek:

Some of the figures quoted on here are either:

1. Someone who has left with significant RAF wide-body hours with various training ticks getting a senior First Officer on long haul. That is not the norm amongst RAF Pilot leavers.

2. Someone that has taken 15yrs + to get to Training Captain, but hey that’s enough time for us all to get to CAS or CDS to earn the big wonga.

I personally think the money whether staying in or leaving is there or there abouts. It’s the whole deal that causes issue and the biggest problem is that we pay people to leave at 18/40 or 20/40 and nothing more if you stay. That short-termism decision is taken by most, but is that the strategy all along? How many aircrew do we need past 40 years old? Do we need lots of Sqn Ldr Manwarings, Flt Lt Wilsons and MACR Jones in a pseudo Dads Army RAF? The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right. The big problem is that we have failed to invest in our flying training system and so don’t have the capacity or capability to train the numbers we need - that is the real reason why we are short and not the fact that 100 or so leave every year. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

As a pilot in the sift for 2 months now I would happily fill one of the 800 spaces!

Apparently only taking a handful of pilots on each IOT at the moment... one presumes down to the training backlog.
In Parliament this afternoon, it seems the 800 pilot shortage is over the next 20 years and relates to training slots. The shortage relate s directly with a high overseas requirement. They are looking to address this by reducing the number of overseas slots. Capita then came in for some stick with some mind blowing stats. Besides a large backlog in processing applicants, many of whom drift off to other jobs, they have issued a £750m rights issue and have debts of about £1.5bn. The Minister is confident that we are not looking at another Carillion.

[WingsofRoffa]

In Parliament this afternoon, it seems the 800 pilot shortage is over the next 20 years and relates to training slots. The shortage relate s directly with a high overseas requirement. They are looking to address this by reducing the number of overseas slots. Capita then came in for some stick with some mind blowing stats. Besides a large backlog in processing applicants, many of whom drift off to other jobs, they have issued a £750m rights issue and have debts of about £1.5bn. The Minister is confident that we are not looking at another Carillion.

Yep - a wait of up to a year in the sift would mean the loss of many 'employable' pilot applicants. When applicants start applying for backups and then the backup offers them a role, it is obvious why some jump at it.

[Onceapilot]

Just a couple of small thoughts. :rolleyes:
The new terms seem to best suit a Pilot who serves and leaves relatively early. Certainly, a fairly standard young ex RAF Pilot can go easily into the RHS with an ATPL on 80k. You might need to pay for your type rating. LHS and 110k is only a few years of sound flying away. Plus the perks, of course. One thing to remember about Mil flying into your dotage is, you have to stay capable of meeting the medical and fitness requirements. You do not always have any ability to influence this and, the requirements may at some point be impossible to achieve.:ooh: Of course, civil Pilots suffer medical problems but, I suggest that it can be more difficult in the military. RO pay, and it's implications for pension abatement, has always been very poor. I do suspect that the Services will find it increasingly difficult to find people willing to fill those jobs for a pittance. Finally, the Service pension cannot be cashed-in or used as much of a financial instrument. This is a big factor now that the options to do things with private pensions have opened-up. ;)

OAP

[just another jocky]

No it’s 51-ish% of your annual salary, not total. Further, until recently it was final salary and now is career-averaging. But it is still one of the best pensions out there - way better than recent company ones that you can get, which are linked to the vagaries of the stock market. My Mrs’s pension has lost the best part of 60% of its value in recent years. One of the reasons why the housing market is a balooning bubble is that many are now investing in bricks and mortar. No need with a Government pension scheme (unless UK PLC goes down the toilet! :eek:)



Yes and I would like Lambo for an MT vehicle...come on, that will never happen. I think the only realistic option is some form of retention payment, not a short-term FRI, for all at 18/40 or 20/40. Either bringing forward the EDP or £20-£30k as a token jesture so that at least you get something for staying.



The new Flexible Employment Strategy allows for part-time working. Early days, but it is a possibility.

Your £12k model isn’t quite there in my humble opinion. Firstly, for every year you stay your pension is growing by roughly £1k as by then your career average is starting to flatten. Further, if you go PAS then your earning potential plus all of your salary is pensionable. Last time I looked Level 35 was about £82k, which is all pensionable and equivalent to senior Wg Cdr or Jnr Gp Capt. Also, until recently for Flt Lts there was a £20k transfer bonus (a 2 year measure).

You can serve to at least 70 in FTRS-land if you wish - indeed there is one aircrew mate that fits that right now. :eek:

Some of the figures quoted on here are either:

1. Someone who has left with significant RAF wide-body hours with various training ticks getting a senior First Officer on long haul. That is not the norm amongst RAF Pilot leavers.

2. Someone that has taken 15yrs + to get to Training Captain, but hey that’s enough time for us all to get to CAS or CDS to earn the big wonga.

I personally think the money whether staying in or leaving is there or there abouts. It’s the whole deal that causes issue and the biggest problem is that we pay people to leave at 18/40 or 20/40 and nothing more if you stay. That short-termism decision is taken by most, but is that the strategy all along? How many aircrew do we need past 40 years old? Do we need lots of Sqn Ldr Manwarings, Flt Lt Wilsons and MACR Jones in a pseudo Dads Army RAF? The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right. The big problem is that we have failed to invest in our flying training system and so don’t have the capacity or capability to train the numbers we need - that is the real reason why we are short and not the fact that 100 or so leave every year. :ok:


As another still-serving, that sounds about right m8. :ok:


I am Level 35 PA Flt Lt on AFPS05 so my whole 82k is taken into account on my grandfather rights pension and if I decide to go FTRS, I get the same income plus flying pay plus another, albeit small, pension.


And I get to fly every day and teach fresh-faced keen, motivated and intelligent young men and women how to fly and look forward to seeing them fly some of the best aircraft in the world.


Or I could be a glorified bus driver.


Taking cover......

[DrinkGirls]

I have been out for many many years and am in the process of rejoining in an FTRS flying role. I have had a fabulous lower paid flying job during my time out but the numbers quoted here are way out from potential earnings unless you are very lucky and prepared to relocate your family. Locos pay RHS around £60k. I am not ready to be compulsory retired by the CAA and FTRS potentially allows flying to 65. I’m back and I’m fit, well and excited about putting my uniform back on. The military offers a lot that just isn’t out there.
As yourself what will suit you, too many people go because everyone else is.

[Melchett01]

No it’s 51-ish% of your annual salary, not total. Further, until recently it was final salary and now is career-averaging. But it is still one of the best pensions out there - way better than recent company ones that you can get, which are linked to the vagaries of the stock market.


LJ,

I was referring to annual salary not final salary - apologies if I wasn't clear. It is all rather confusing though, because the publications issues to serving personnel clearly state that every year, the MOD adds an amount equal to 1/47th of your annual pensionable earnings for that year, to your individual ‘pension pot’.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/419740/20150312_AFPS15_YPSE_FINAL.pdf

However, having delved into the bowels of the original publication, Annex F sheds a dim light on the difference. Put simply, I think the 51ish% relates to the capital value that needs to be squirreled away to provide the member's benefits in any given year based on the 1/47 accrual rate. But, and it's a big but, Annex F goes on to note that all these calculations are notional - there is no actual fund and we don't actually get 51% added to our effective remuneration package. If only we did, might keep some more people in.

[VinRouge]

I have been out for many many years and am in the process of rejoining in an FTRS flying role. I have had a fabulous lower paid flying job during my time out but the numbers quoted here are way out from potential earnings unless you are very lucky and prepared to relocate your family. Locos pay RHS around £60k. I am not ready to be compulsory retired by the CAA and FTRS potentially allows flying to 65. I’m back and I’m fit, well and excited about putting my uniform back on. The military offers a lot that just isn’t out there.
As yourself what will suit you, too many people go because everyone else is.


Ok, put it another way, if you could secure a decent LH job as SFO with a legacy, or the realistic opportunity to be LHS within 3 years for a loco on 120K, would you say that it is a no-brainer? Luck really isn't in it, hard qualifications and experience is the main factor here. The CAA allows flying under an ATPL on multicrew till 65, so there is no issue there. I don't know many who haven't left and are now on at least 20K more than they left with within the mob. That includes some now working part time. I don't know many flying for the likes of J2, Easy etc whom haven't achieved command within 3-5 years.

Yes and I would like Lambo for an MT vehicle...come on, that will never happen. I think the only realistic option is some form of retention payment, not a short-term FRI, for all at 18/40 or 20/40. Either bringing forward the EDP or £20-£30k as a token jesture so that at least you get something for staying.


The other option is, I leave, take a pay rise, plus take the above anyway, then work towards second pension and lump sum that is far in excess of the one I would have got at 60 in the RAF. MoD loses experience and I am not retained. I will still be taking the above sums talked about. In the meanwhile, a replacement has to be sought, trained (circa cost 2 million plus) and put through a training system that has no capacity throughput at the moment. 20-30k? Forget it. FRI of Lump sum gratuity, post tax, with max commutation and I may think about it.


The average length of service for Aircrew is about 20 years and so that is probably about right.

Absolutely not my experience. Some areas/fleets are struggling to retain past 6 year ROS at present, hence why certain fleet ROS have been changed recently. The majority of my generation went well before 16 year point, as it was unaffordable to stay in the 4 years for the pension whilst legacy airlines were biting off their arms to join them. The cull of baby pilots absolutely destroyed any view that you could trust the MoD and many of their course mates are now aggressively looking for alternative employment now their ROS is coming to completion.

[Lima Juliet]

Sorry Vinrouge but that is just not correct. The average length of service of pilots leaving the Service in 2017 was 19yrs and 7 months and for WSO it was 24yrs and 10 months. See page 82 of the following links for the stats: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/659990/2017-08239.pdf

As for your other ‘facts’ they are equally doubtful. Locos don’t pay anywhere near the money you’re talking about - at EJ or Ryan you’ll be lucky to get just over half what you’re claiming.

There are quite a lot of people wanting to rejoin or come back as FTRS at the moment. The ‘grass’ for them is definately not the right shade. I’ll say it again, the reason why we have an aircrew shortage is because we are not set up to train enough. Look at the outflow figures in the link above and the fact is obvious - in 2017 110 pilots left and we trained less than half that (stats on page 68 - average ET/PVR about 50-60 per year). The maths isn’t that difficult!

[DirtyProp]

Would the RAF accept foreign old farts...?
:}

[VinRouge]

Sorry, you are wrong.Loco pay:

easyJet (UK Contract pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/easyJet_(UK_Contract))
Easy Fo base is 51k, not including allowance of of 20 quid per sector. So add another 7k on that. 57k. That doesn't include overtime. Increasing to 105k base as a skipper with an anticipated 12k on top flying pay.
Top pay for a captain at easyJet is in excess of 136K.
jet 2:
Jet2.com pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Jet2.com)
FO base 58k, climbing to 66k with anticipated allowance of 2800.
Day off payments of 300 quid a day.


Captain base, 100k, with an anticipated allowance of 6k. Day off overtime payment 470 quid.

Ryanair, despite their working conditions are offering skippers between 120-150k euro a year.

As for the age of leavers, I'd be interested to see if that includes all GD branch, including hanger on staffers, or those who actually fly, and which stream. Those stats include pretty much the main cadre of VSO who will of course stay on till 55, or certainly much longer. 1* and above They account for 20% of the pilot cadre. see page 27. It also shows us down a whopping 23% for Junior Officer pilots.

No agenda, just pointing out facts. And I agree the grass isn't greener. But one thing you absolutely cannot argue is that the financial settlement in any way compares to the commercial world. It doesnt, especially after the 10 year pay freeze. Reality is, many ARE going direct legacy carrier and those that aren't are looking at Direct entry command with a number of smaller but reputable carriers. Some in their second year as first officers have turned 100k when short notice overtime has been accounted for.

The flying pay review screwed the pooch by not putting aircrew on a similar scheme to the Docs and the Lawyers. Last real opportunity to stop stop the outflow tap, sadly missed.

[Pontius Navigator]

The average age of pilots leaving the Service in 2017 was 19yrs and 7 months and for WSO it was 24yrs and 10 months.

Really? Before they are trained? :)

Historically that appears to be the norm. Given a 38/16 ToS, some pilots retiring at 55 (38 years) and others retiring at earlier option points, it all appears predictable. The unpredictable was the wholesale chopping of fleets.

Look at the outflow figures in the link above and the fact is obvious - in 2017 110 pilots left and we trained less than half that and that is where that 20 year deficit would arise and as discussed in Parliament yesterday. I must say, apart from the absence of JC, the opposition questions were thoughtful, well balanced and very helpful to the military.

[Fareastdriver]

The CAA allows flying under an ATPL on multicrew till 65

If you really like flying do what I did; get an Australian licence and fly for ever as long as you pass your medicals and base checks. I flew with my Australian and Chinese licences until just before my 69th birthday.

[VinRouge]

Really? Before they are trained? :)

Historically that appears to be the norm. Given a 38/16 ToS, some pilots retiring at 55 (38 years) and others retiring at earlier option points, it all appears predictable. The unpredictable was the wholesale chopping of fleets.

and that is where that 20 year deficit would arise and as discussed in Parliament yesterday. I must say, apart from the absence of JC, the opposition questions were thoughtful, well balanced and very helpful to the military. At least the Military vote is set to rise 0.5% above the 2% year on year. I think that means 2.01, 2.02.
The stats are not considering apples with apples. They include the majority of the RAF's senior leadership which is skewing them. Any stats for junior frontline pilot age of leaving, in isolation? Need to account for the lead time in training pipelines too...

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I’ll say it again, the reason why we have an aircrew shortage is because we are not set up to train enough.

Nearly spot on - the only word missing is 'currently' which should be between 'not' and 'set up'. While there are many factors in play, the ability of the training system to cope with current demand is the main one - the frequent talk of mass PVRs is always overstated. While of course many people find civil flying (or non-flying) jobs appealing, and some of them will end up very well paid, there are others who are content with the military wage and pension, especially when added to the potential variety and excitement of military flying.

And before everyone gives Ascent both barrels, please bear in mind that they have no control over (a) changing Brit Mil student throughput (b) IDT students taking slots at relatively short notice and (c) the ability of OCUs/OCFs to train those who have made it to that stage. There are other criticisms of Ascent which may prove to be entirely valid...

Any room under your stone JAJ?

[VinRouge]

Nearly spot on - the only word missing is 'currently' which should be between 'not' and 'set up'. While there are many factors in play, the ability of the training system to cope with current demand is the main one - the frequent talk of mass PVRs is always overstated. While of course many people find civil flying (or non-flying) jobs appealing, and some of them will end up very well paid, there are others who are content with the military wage and pension, especially when added to the potential variety and excitement of military flying.

And before everyone gives Ascent both barrels, please bear in mind that they have no control over (a) changing Brit Mil student throughput (b) IDT students taking slots at relatively short notice and (c) the ability of OCUs/OCFs to train those who have made it to that stage. There are other criticisms of Ascent which may prove to be entirely valid...

Any room under your stone JAJ?

If we don't have an issue with experience outflow, why may I ask are ocfs struggling with throughput presently? It's because we ain't retaining enough of the right people after 10 years with no pay rise and those remaining picking up the workload for the 23% gap identified in the report above.

No issue with mass pvrs.... Ha ha! Pull the other one.

[roaming sheep]

So apparently there isn’t a retention problem in the RAF...
The latest PAS board results have been released and all that was offered to keep those that are soon to leave at their 1st pension point was...the opportunity to move onto the PAS pay scale; no offer of any carrot. This was insulting by the Mob, and as such I am unaware of any of my colleagues actually taking this offer up. Why would you??? Slight, and it really would be a slight increase in pension, but for that you would have to agree to another 5 years RoS...who would honestly take those terms when the external market is looking healthier on a daily basis?? It really does look like the RAF does not value experienced aviators.

[Bob Viking]

I’m not pushing the argument in either direction but I might just mention that hidden in the small print of the delayed AFPRB report it did say that the review may target specific pinch trades. Maybe PAS will be one of them and that’s why they have been seemingly ignored.

I know I’m an eternal optimist and I have no idea if it’ll come to pass but I wouldn’t sign up to PAS until seeing the outcome of the AFPRB report.

You’ll notice I am not discussing my own pay and benefits in the way others have. I think it’s all rather crass to be honest.

Trust people to be grown ups and do their own sums and research.

BV

[Ascoteer]

If we don't have an issue with experience outflow, why may I ask are ocfs struggling with throughput presently? It's because we ain't retaining enough of the right people after 10 years with no pay rise and those remaining picking up the workload for the 23% gap identified in the report above.

No issue with mass pvrs.... Ha ha! Pull the other one.

Bang on the money here. Certainly my view of the front line.

It appears some here have had many years of passing their laundry forward!

[Lima Juliet]

PN - d’oh! Good point, post corrected to “length of service” not “age” - that’ll learn me not to type on an iPhone!

VR

As for the age of leavers, I'd be interested to see if that includes all GD branch, including hanger on staffers, or those who actually fly, and which stream. Those stats include pretty much the main cadre of VSO who will of course stay on till 55, or certainly much longer. 1* and above They account for 20% of the pilot cadre. see page 27. It also shows us down a whopping 23% for Junior Officer pilots.

I think you need a colour blind test me old. The 1-star and above cadre within the Pilot sub-branch is more like 2.5% of the total 2,010 liability for pilots. Rather than looking at page 27 (with all its colours) look at page 18 - the pilot liability is 2,010 and the number of JOs is 1,250 or 62%. If we add say 220 of the Sqn Ldrs (PAS and Flt Cdrs) and 50 Wg Cdrs (OC Ops and Sqn Cdrs) then we get a total of 1,520 or 75% being in flying jobs (not flying-related or “hangers on” as you like to call them). That is probably about right as after 4 back to back flying tours then most are ready for the respite of a “hanger on”tour as you like to call them :ok:

So I’m afraid that doesn’t stack up with your quote above.

As for the 23% gap, that is mostly in staff (or “hanging on”!) as the FL has been prioritised for maximum fill so many hanger-on posts are gapped or filled by other branches. We certainly aren’t that short on FL sqns as many complain about the paucity of flying hours they get each month!

I agree with BV, it is vulgar talking about the wages but I think it is important to dispel the myths. I believe that thinking ex-mil pilots will be anywhere near £120k after 3 years is unrealistic, and also not forgetting that PAS on level 35 will be about the same if you take the pension contribution on top (invisible to all) at the SCAPE rate of 52% then you are there or there abouts, plus the other allowances, medical benefits and subsidised housing (if you really want to live in one) which aren’t available to airline pilots.

Horses for courses?

[VinRouge]

So, in other words, when we are talking about front line output, we are actually at 62% then, bearing in mind, comparing apples to apples, we are talking about retaining operational output creators (the pilots) and not the remainder whom occupy non operational staff roles that could in reality be filled by INZPIRE? I guess those are the individuals the gubbermint are interested in, when we consider "pilot retention""? Granted, there are essential flying execs, without whom safe flying supervision would not take place, but even assuming 1 supervisor for every 10 sqn mates, you only account for what, another 6-7%? another couple of % for OOA. but certainly, the remainder will account for a significant skew in the stats.



How can you say that ex-mil wont be on significantly more than at present, when lads who have left very recently, in SFO positions, are regularly hitting the top rate tax bracket? Simple fact is, multi branch guys are regularly hitting that. As are some FJ mates who are flying for a few years. Whilst maybe not 120k+ in 3 years (some are doing that though) it's certainly a better lie-of-the-land than what we find ourselves in the mob.

I cannot see how the 52% works out at all, as from my sums, the 21% including personal contribution that you will have at the likes of BA or VA, will give you a much bigger net pensionable wealth at 65 than you will ever get on the AFPS15 PA pension. That includes allowing for a 75% contract after 10 years (age 48). This is, of course, also accounting for drawing a pension at IPP 16/38. This does not not account for christmas bonus, family and friend staff travel, ID75/ID90, cheap duty free, free healthcare and discount Bupa typically for immediate family, loss of licence cover, discount HOTAC and the ability to put a realistic tax rebate in for business expenses. Oh, and being paid the 44p per mile accepted in business for motor mileage allowance as opposed to a rate that doesnt cover fair wear and tear.

As for housing, the contract is about to get torn up (nibbled to death by ducks). Annington will soon charge MoD market rate, there will be a new scheme which will be sold as great for everyone, whereas actually, it will be pants.

[Pontius Navigator]

s for housing, the contract is about to get torn up (nibbled to death by ducks). Annington will soon charge MoD market rate, there will be a new scheme which will be sold as great for everyone, whereas actually, it will be pants.

This was covered by the Minister on Monday afternoon in response to a question.


Mr Ellwood
I must correct the hon. Lady: nobody will be forced to do anything, but the option will be available to them. We are providing more choice for our armed forces personnel, who can choose to stay on the base, rent or indeed get on the housing ladder and purchase a property. Of course, house prices vary up and down the country, so we need to make sure that there is a process to ensure a subsidised capability so that nobody is left out of pocket. However, there is a choice; nobody will be forced into any of this accommodation.

[VinRouge]

Not permanently is my understanding. I think you get a certain number of years to live in? I think the rest of us livers out are being bought off with the remaining budget. Will put a lot of junior ranks in Oxfordshire and the home counties in a very difficult position in terms of living arrangements. As stated by BV, you have to do your own sums and make your own decisions, factoring in the thrill of military life, excellent mukkas and fantastic memories.

However, you can't deny there are issues with the on-going pay freeze and lack of retention incentives for the more experienced , who despite wanting to stay on, for loyalty to the family when the whole package is considered, cannot see how they can justify an extention to TOS when the financial impact is as severe as it is.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Secretary of State for Defence (Gavin Williamson)
I have regular discussions with the Chancellor and, as the Prime Minister announced last month, the Ministry of Defence will benefit from an extra £800 million in the current financial year, including £600 million for the Dreadnought submarine programme. The Government are committed to spending at least 2% of GDP on defence, and the defence budget will rise by at least 0.5% above inflation in every year of this Parliament. The modernising defence programme will ensure that our armed forces have the right processes and capabilities to address evolving threats.

So spending will be at least 2% of GDP. Then it will increase by at least 0.5% above inflation - which index?

If inflation is 3% then the vote will increase by at least 3.5%. Presumably the increase the following year will compound on the previous increases.

The question of Foreign Aid paying for some Defence expenditure was raised but he said that £100m of humanitarian aid, for instance after the Hurricane could not be recovered from the foreign sid.

[Pontius Navigator]

VR, he said the Future Accommodation Model would be trialled at the end of the year.

[Melchett01]

The Secretary of State for Defence (Gavin Williamson)
I have regular discussions with the Chancellor and, as the Prime Minister announced last month, the Ministry of Defence will benefit from an extra £800 million in the current financial year, including £600 million for the Dreadnought submarine programme. The Government are committed to spending at least 2% of GDP on defence, and the defence budget will rise by at least 0.5% above inflation in every year of this Parliament. The modernising defence programme will ensure that our armed forces have the right processes and capabilities to address evolving threats.

So spending will be at least 2% of GDP. Then it will increase by at least 0.5% above inflation - which index?

If inflation is 3% then the vote will increase by at least 3.5%. Presumably the increase the following year will compound on the previous increases.

The question of Foreign Aid paying for some Defence expenditure was raised but he said that £100m of humanitarian aid, for instance after the Hurricane could not be recovered from the foreign sid.

But will that ‘at least 2%’ be proper defence spending - manpower, resource etc - or padded out with pensions, ‘security’ and other costs that don’t make it through to front line capability?

[Pontius Navigator]

Gavin did not make that clear but I get the impression he is a bit sharper than some predecessors. His sidekick is ex-army.

[Lima Juliet]

VR

A recent pension prediction done on another site with the Armed Forces Pension calculator for a PAS Flt Lt showed an immediate pension at age 60 of £55k. I would be amazed if the airline pension schemes, which are actually investment schemes got anywhere close to this as a guaranteed sum - in fact I have just been down the pub with a BA Captain who has been with the company ‘man and boy’ and he thought that was very generous compared to what he thinks he will actually get in the end. Why? He pointed me to this article:

BA seeks to close main pension scheme - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41193122)

PS. He also painted a far less optimistic picture than some have on here. The Flybe captain I was also with felt the same!

[Melchett01]

This was covered by the Minister on Monday afternoon in response to a question.


Mr Ellwood
I must correct the hon. Lady: nobody will be forced to do anything, but the option will be available to them. We are providing more choice for our armed forces personnel, who can choose to stay on the base, rent or indeed get on the housing ladder and purchase a property. Of course, house prices vary up and down the country, so we need to make sure that there is a process to ensure a subsidised capability so that nobody is left out of pocket. However, there is a choice; nobody will be forced into any of this accommodation.

Nobody left out of pocket? Excellent. Does that mean in future when I’m doing the weekly commute, just because I’m not married I won’t have to pay accommodation charges in the same way my married home owning colleagues don’t pay to live in during the week?

Reassuring to see they are going to have true equality at the heart of their accommodation policies going forward.

[roving]

Amongst the 1000 jobs that are on offer include vacancies for pilots and cabin crew.

Jobs Fair | Manchester Airport (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/community/working-in-our-community/airport-jobsfair/)

[Pontius Navigator]

Reassuring to see they are going to have true equality at the heart of their accommodation policies going forward.
Do i detect a tone in your voice Sir? :)

[Melchett01]

Do i detect a tone in your voice Sir? :)



And I thought I'd done a good job of hiding it! It must be the tone of someone paying 8K more for identical Mess accommodation over the course of a tour than the guy sitting next to me, all because of differing marital status categories on JPA.


How's that for not being out of pocket?!

[Pontius Navigator]

And I thought I'd done a good job of hiding it! It must be the tone of someone paying 8K more for identical Mess accommodation over the course of a tour than the guy sitting next to me, all because of differing marital status categories on JPA.


How's that for not being out of pocket?!
mind you, think of all the make up, hair dos, ball gowns, double tickets, sales bargains etc that you don't have to spend. Admittedly single supplements for holidays are a down side.

[Melchett01]

mind you, think of all the make up, hair dos, ball gowns, double tickets, sales bargains etc that you don't have to spend. Admittedly single supplements for holidays are a down side.

Oh I don’t get off that lightly! Could be worse I suppose. If I were a Booty that list would be doubled!

[just another jocky]

You’ll notice I am not discussing my own pay and benefits in the way others have. I think it’s all rather crass to be honest.

Trust people to be grown ups and do their own sums and research.

BV

Ouch...but in my defence, I'm tired of people slagging off things about which they seem to know so little so I thought a little clarity may assist.

I still wouldn't swap my current job to drive a bus. It's not always about the money.

[roving]

Roving,

"The justification for scrapping the RAF Aux Air Squadrons in 1957 was that with the Hunter replacing the Vampire and Meteor, it would be too difficult to convert reservists to swept wing advanced jets."

A commonly held but inaccurate view. The RAuxAF flying squadrons, and the RNVR Air branch, were disbanded for two main reasons, one that they were simply running out of aircrew and with the doing away of National Service pilots they would not be able to field even one complete squadron with aircrew! The second was that the 1957 White paper was about to reduce Fighter Command massively in an ill guided rush to missiles, and an accurate recognition that the main Soviet threat to the UK was in intermediate range ballistic missiles, which all the Hunters and Javelins in the world could do nothing to protect against, so another 20 Auxiliary squadrons which would have to be re-equipped and some method of manning them found, was an obvious target. On top of that there was the Conservative mandate to reduce defence expenditure at the same time as spending an absolute fortune developing the thermonuclear weapon.

Support for the view I posted is also found here.

From 1938 until 1957, the RNVR provided aircrew personnel in the form of their own Air Branch. In 1947, their contribution was cut to anti-submarine and fighter squadrons only. By 1957, it was considered by the UK government that the training required to operate modern equipment was beyond that expected of reservists and the Air Branch squadrons were disbanded. The US government took a different view, and the US Navy and Marine reserve squadrons today still operate front-line types alongside the regular units. The Air Branch was reformed at RNAS Yeovilton in 1980, though it is only open to service leavers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Naval_Reserve

[alfred_the_great]

You can't join the USNR as an ab initio and expect to be trained up.

Because of the long and costly training pipeline, there are no direct accessions for Navy Reserve pilots. They have to come from the fleet, and their skills are incredibly perishable.

Changing Vectors in the Navy Reserve (http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=79089)

[scientia in alto]

I think there have been some wise words on here, clearly written and concisely presented. The phrase 'jam tomorrow' was a recurrent theme through my service.


- A real terms 12% pay cut since 2008
- Reduction and removal of allowances (IA, reductions in mileage allowance, 20% reduction in most subsistence allowance)
- Enforced pension change from AFPS75 to AFPS15. Although the pension is still good, this change in itself costs upward of £100k. Not to mention the RPI to CPI change!
- Housing issues. Housing works if you're married, or you're single. If you want to live with your partner and not be married, it's of little consequence to the package, especially when you are South East based. 'FAM' is unknown and not likely to be better.

The people above adding an arbitrary 51% to the RAF salary to compensate for the pension are living a fallacy. There are very few of us outside that would salary sacrifice 51% to their pension pot; most of the young 'uns are still striving to buy ever-inflating property, which the invisible RAF pension does not help.
...
After leaving I'm on a comfortable 6 figures (not adding pension or allowances or bonuses), work up to 14 days a month, live in the same area, don't go into work if I'm not flying and don't have to deal with the day-to-day Service annoyances (JPA, Imprests, CCS, SDO, JOD, GPCs, IRT, RSOI).

Sure, I miss seeing my RAF buddies daily, but most realise that the grass IS greener, unless you are one of the few where the RAF really fits (children in private school, married quarter, PA etc, or you've escaped the frontline and work mon-fri). I had an awesome time, met awesome people, but glad I didn't listen to those who have never actually experienced life 'outside', and seem determined to convince people that ever-reducing Ts & Cs and ever-increasing workload is normal (although I'm sure that may be the case for some airlines as well!).

Ascoteer 👍those are almost carbon copies of my reasons for leaving. I was rotary and I have achieved my Flt Lt salary in my first FW job. Best estimate is that I'll move LHS in 5 years. That is far better pay and conditions progression than anything the RAF would have considered offering me.

The Senior Leadership team need to address this tranche of concerns as people are voting with their feet. This can only be made worse as BA have started recruiting non-TR. The BA recruitment 'ripple' will undoubtedly pull through the system, creating openings for more of the rotary and FW pilots looking for their first civilian pay check. Fresh opportunities, and friends seeing old Sqn pals enjoying themselves 'outside' will have a compound negative effect on retention. I feel for the Sqn bosses putting huge efforts in, with a dwindling workforce who struggle for experience... it's those guys and gals that suffer huge stress trying to 'guide' their team to stay with 'jam tomorrow' and instilled fear of job failures. [every single RAF pilot passed rigorous selection... it's very likely that other employers will recognise quality candidates]

Lastly - almost all the current pilots have had huge operational experience. I feel there is a point once combat flying has been tasted, the 'need' to repeatedly doesn't exist for the majority.

I love the RAF and thoroughly enjoyed my time, but it was time to go and it appears many others pilots are the same. Let's hope enough of the good guys & gals stay to keep the standards and ethos high. Happy 100th

SIA

[Basil]

Someone mentioned:
Not to mention the RPI to CPI change!
BA did exactly that, and also adversely altered the retired Staff Travel rules.
They were a great outfit to work for but you can still be stuffed by the best of civvies.

I finally retired from a small company when the fictional roster clearly became a waste of time, ink and paper. :confused: