737 Type Freeze coming at Qantas: Crew shortage bites?

[Rated De]

From a reputable source, David Andrew has reportedly realised the scale of the shortage. All fleets at Qantas are short in most ranks, none more so than the 737. Crew shortages left uncovered lead to cancellations and this has shown an alarming increase.


Whilst union concessions will continue to be relied upon, Executive Management cannot escape the damning reality that lack of crew leads to loss of Operating Revenue. Crewing and training levels have now allegedly fallen below safe establishment levels.



Cancellations are now discussed at board meetings. There are the equivalent of 5 airframes sitting idle, as crew shortages are increasingly evident.
Operating revenue is being substantially impacted.


With no end to the structural shortage in sight, Andrew David is reported to be considering a fleet freeze for the 737. All pilots will be type frozen. Sources were reluctant to confirm a time frame.
Training resources were stretched to the limit generating around 300 pilots. Estimate north of 600 for the next period are being openly spoken about. Qantas cannot train its pilots rapidly enough.

Pilot progression was the only thing holding it all together. Qantas pilots we know endured a lost decade as JQ grew. Their careers stagnanted. They were insulted, grounded and locked out. If management actually do such a thing, it is not going to end well.


We welcome current pilots discussing such a proposal, would it work? Can it be done?

[Beer Baron]

What section of the LH or SH EBA would allow this?

I agree with you, I bet AD would love it but I don’t see how you can just breach the EBA.
I’ve not had a good look at those sections though so perhaps you can show us what part will permit it.

[V-Jet]

Legislation..... 457, DEC, the whole 9 yards....

[neville_nobody]

Maybe they're testing the water to see how far the pilots will cave in.

[Tuner 2]

Wild guess; it's a Qantas claim in the short haul EBA. Gee, surprising, not.

[maggot]

Smells like a distraction

[dragon man]

The mail I’m getting is that they are also going to go for 457 visas for direct entry 737 FOs. They just don’t get it, fix the short haul contract and the training will drop. I’m also hearing 6 787s coming from October 2019 thru to April 2020 at which point all the 747s will go. All this will do of course will make the training problem worse. I believe Joyce met AIPA on Wednesday, what was discussed I do not know.

[Tankengine]

Throw in a 10-15% payrise and it could happen, but I doubt it.;)
Unfortunately after taking to AD a couple of times I have got the impression he is not the sharpest tool in the shed despite his salary.:E

[Tankengine]

The mail I’m getting is that they are also going to go for 457 visas for direct entry 737 FOs. They just don’t get it, fix the short haul contract and the training will drop. I’m also hearing 6 787s coming from October 2019 thru to April 2020 at which point all the 747s will go. All this will do of course will make the training problem worse. I believe Joyce met AIPA on Wednesday, what was discussed I do not know.
Replace nine 747s with six 787s.:ugh:
Yeah, that will solve everything!:rolleyes:

[Professional Amateur]

What are the crewing ratios per aircraft to generate around the clock ROI?

EG: one 787 requires 5 of each Capt, FO & SO.

I ask as this informs the level of the shortage. I.e fleet numbers vs crew.

[Rated De]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-11/emirates-profit-rebound-threatened-by-summer-pilot-shortage

As we stated repeatedly to howls of protest, this shortage is global it is structural and it is demographic. Sorry detractors, but this time it is real.

Qantas management taking the traditional IR approach to this is not going to work.

The mail I’m getting is that they are also going to go for 457 visas for direct entry 737 FOs. That is correct.

Sources stated that the Jetconnect and Network play was aimed at establishing the narrative for direct entry contract 457 737 pilots.
Qantas were lobbying in Canberra well before Christmas. This is why it was announced in the Christmas hiatus; it caught the unions napping, digesting their Christmas pudding. From what was communicated by Qantas pilots there has been no further mention of it


Am told that there is quiet concern that this may well get out of hand..

[Arthur D]

Or perhaps, dare I say it, the current training demand has brought to light onerous provisions in the agreements which effectively magnify training requirements.

Is it reasonable to require up to 12 training movements just to replace 1 A380 Captain? All up this would easily equate to at least $600k in training cost at $50k per head (and I am being conservative).

5 B737’s laying idle represents significant wasted capital. That gets shareholder interest. The resulting reduction in capacity and consequentially full flights and yield increases means pissed off customers. Pissed off customers impact politicians as well as shareholders.

Yes the pilot shortage is a problem, unfortunately it is a also bringing to light how the agreements restrict Qantas from growing or replacing crew rapidly. You can apportion blame all you like, but managements job is to run the company, which includes resolving issues. Now that this issue has come to light, it will get scrutiny and management will seek solutions.

Either the pilots come on board with a solution, or be part of the problem. Bitching about lost decade etc. ain’t going to solve the problem.

Have a look at how they are solving the pipeline issue. The cadet program, headed by a lawyer under HR and supported by rostering department. Flight ops dealt out (despite many successful programs of the past).

The problem is real and now, get on board and you have a chance to influence the future.

[Chad Gates]

Improve conditions in SH in line with LH, increase my pay (plus a bit as an incentive) and equivalent super to that of what my seniority could hold, and I'll keep my current lifestyle. Win Win.

[Rated De]

Have a look at how they are solving the pipeline issue. The cadet program, headed by a lawyer under HR and supported by rostering department. Flight ops dealt out (despite many successful programs of the past).Flight Operations dear fellow are irrelevant. The current incumbent neither directs nor assigns expenditure. There is always 'Corporate overreach'. Assigned budget is one thing, directing strategic spending quite another. They are known as figure heads for a reason: necessary but rather quiet. From memory it was Mr Strong who objected to the title of 'Director of Flight Operations'.

Of course they have a 'pipeline in mind', our sources confirm they are well aware a 'solution' if any remains years away. So naturally adversarial IR will ratchet up the rhetoric. Even Mr Joyce is not that stupid.


The board is well aware.

The key distinction to draw Arthur is they indeed have a problem. To whom that problem belongs is the distinction.
Management have the problem. Union concessions are continually granted. It is no longer of the pilot's making, nor is the pilot's concern to fix.

We do suspect you are right, idle threats are the go to tool for adversarial IR. When the screaming subsides, management will probably then appeal to the 'professionalism' of the pilots.

The possible threats inspired by Mr O'Leary's extreme union avoidance posture, which Mr Joyce aspires to, put Mr O'Leary in quite a pickle. We expect Qantas to run down the same line, as we have stated endlessly, they know no other way. For airlines have embraced globalisation, Qantas egged on by unlimited supply drove terms and conditions ever downward.


Operating Revenue declines may necessitate a call to the ASX under listing rule 3.1

Either way, the problem belongs at the feet of corporate, whom we hasten to add is a direct report to Mr Joyce. It is there that expenditure of capital has been declined repeatedly, presumably to be spent on share buy backs and other 'shareholder value generating activity'.

[Chad Gates]

The problem is Arthur, the pilots can't to fix the mess, and it will cost QF many dollars if they seek this type of solution. I guess its up to them to determine what they think its worth.
I believe think this kind of agreement could be in everyones interest, if the company are willing to work with the pilots.

Like others in the QF recruitment thread have explained, some of us are very happy in SH, and only seek to move to LH for the financial security it provides. Eliminate the discrepancy and many would stay in SH forever.

[goodonyamate]

There is no freeze provision in the SH EA. Freeze me, I’ll see you in court, and while I may end up staying on the 737, you’ll be paying me bypass... I’m outta here ASAP.

Of course....fix the SH EA, provide me with some protection rather than have me assume all the risk, give me proper sick leave, give me more balance throughout the rotation and a few other things, and I’m staying put. based on contribution to the bottom line, my pay and conditions should be at the very least, equal to a 330 FO. Don’t even get me started on what SO’s ‘earn’. (BTW....that’s not their fault at all, nothing against them, just a glaring example of the inadequacies and inequalities of the SH EA....how about recognising the crew who assume all the risk!!!!)

[Rated De]

There is no freeze provision in the SH EA.We are not experts in contracts, our sources communicated that the lobbying is taking place to somehow step around the contractual road block.

Respectfully we would suggest the nexus is the 'story' they told about Jetconnect and Network. The lack of progress recruiting 'suitable pilots' a cornerstone of their endeavour to expand the visa issue beyond what was initially stated.

As we stated at the time, it appeared they were playing checkers and the response of the union 'more akin to checkers'.

And I would like front row to witness AJ and his HR yes men explain to the shareholders why they have ignored glaring advice for years predicting this and have chosen to ignore it.

Don you may be closer the pin than you realise, the Operating Revenue losses are beginning to mount. There are material changes to trading conditions that must be reported. One may ask just how Mr Joyce 'DE-transforms' Qantas now?

[maggot]

It's almost like they could have foreseen this training requirement, eh

If only :hmm:

[Berealgetreal]

I think it’s Andrew David.

There is an operator over the road that has 700 B737 pilots. The reality is that the SH conditions and the 787/330 entry package isn’t compelling enough for most.

Likewise working in China. Close but no cigar. No one wants to put up with that crap even at 30k a month!

[Beer Baron]

Quote:
The mail I’m getting is that they are also going to go for 457 visas for direct entry 737 FOs.
That is correct

That is not correct. The labour agreement that Qantas have applied to Home Affairs for does not cover mainline operations. ie. Does not apply to 737.

[V-Jet]

Arthur D(aley) from Hyperspace - join date Feb'18. Probably not a person with anything more than a bonus at stake to write on these pages.

[Rated De]

That is not correct. The labour agreement that Qantas have applied to Home Affairs for does not cover mainline operations. ie. Does not apply to 737.

A source suggested that may be the case for a short period of time.

[Roj approved]

Simple, the trainers just refuse to train 457 visa pilots, if that means they all resign from training, that is going to really put the company in a pickle.

Time to man up and protect your future

[Aussie Fo]

I’ll put it to you Raded De that the only reason cancellations are being discussed at board level is because it effects Canberra and the boards mates. And that’s the 717/ DSh8 primarily . Anything else would be day of operations and wouldn’t make the minor CEO of Qantas let alone the board.

Andrew David can say all he wants but I doubt he can do much about individual awards.

Now what would AIPA agree to? Let me see Network, Jetconnect and 457 visas are on the table....

It’s always been a union for protecting the conditions of the old men on the gravey train.

“Don’t worry son you’ll be senior one day”
For anyone less than 55 that’s the 787 with no overtime no night credits. And the new award each aircraft will now be on.

The gravey train get shorter and shorter each year. As does the overtime of those on it

[Beer Baron]

Sources stated that the Jetconnect and Network play was aimed at establishing the narrative for direct entry contract 457 737 pilots.
Respectfully we would suggest the nexus is the 'story' they told about Jetconnect and Network. The lack of progress recruiting 'suitable pilots' a cornerstone of their endeavour to expand the visa issue beyond what was initially stated.

Rated De,
What is the connection here that you refer to? You keep mentioning Jet Connect and 457 visas. You do realise that Jet Connect is based in New Zealand and as such will definitely NOT be sourcing pilots on a 457 visa?

[Keg]

It ain’t five. Closer to three. And that’d be the three equivalent hulls mainline gets back by having Jetconnect pilots fly VH aircraft.

When Jetconnect and Network can’t get enough crew not sure what 457 visas will achieve. They still need to be employed under the same award as currently. That means they join as S/Os. No way would AIPA agree to a variation to permit DE 737 F/O for 457s

[Transition Layer]

Maybe this is a good opportunity for QF to get serious about “short” training courses and coming up with some clever ways to utilise the relative Boeing/Airbus experience within the airline.

We all know the Certified Agreements rule the roost, but surely the pilots, AIPA and the Company can come up with a solution which sees more sensible progression. For example, 737 F/Os go to the 787 or hang around for the left seat of the 737, and the Airbus pilots do something like A380 S/O to A330 F/O and stay on that fleet for a command, rather than the ridiculous flow of people from 737 to A330 and A330 to B787. Specifically those two moves are what is really hurting the company right how.

[NGsim]

Plenty of talk of jetconnect crewing Bne-Pom (as a start) despite the stated words in late 17 that j/c would only crew the Tasman (but apparently no assurances.....)

[Tankengine]

Maybe this is a good opportunity for QF to get serious about “short” training courses and coming up with some clever ways to utilise the relative Boeing/Airbus experience within the airline.

We all know the Certified Agreements rule the roost, but surely the pilots, AIPA and the Company can come up with a solution which sees more sensible progression. For example, 737 F/Os go to the 787 or hang around for the left seat of the 737, and the Airbus pilots do something like A380 S/O to A330 F/O and stay on that fleet for a command, rather than the ridiculous flow of people from 737 to A330 and A330 to B787. Specifically those two moves are what is really hurting the company right how.

How about starting with 4 year freeze instead of 2.
This would have to be paid for of course!:E
This is going to be a fun year with 2 EBAs.:E

[Guptar]

How about QF actually have realistic hiring criteria. There are plenty of experienced, able, competent & qualified drivers getting a thanks but no thanks from Qantas. Skywest doesn't seem to have problems hiring Aussies with just a resume and a skype interview, and they are many many times bigger than QF. Flying in weather and airspace we can only dream of down here in the sheltered workshop of Oz. I predict a whole lot won't ever come back from the USA. It seems like even the Boeing Chief Pilot or Chuck Yeager would have a 50/50 chance of a knockback from QF.

[cessnapete]

One change to make a cost difference in training.
In UK some airlines pay is tied to seniority not aircraft type. i.e.
A pilot with 10 year Company seniority on an A320, gets the same basic pay as someone with 10 year seniority on the A380. Flying hour pay and allowances can make a difference, with LH flying usually paying more.
The system allows a pilot who wishes to stay in the Short haul lifestyle not having to bid for LH to get the higher pay from a bigger aircraft type.. It also saves the Company multiple Type Rating courses as people move from fleet to fleet.

From a previous post, I'm amazed that a QF S/O on LH types, making no decisions and never flying the aircraft, gets paid more than a B737 FO on two pilot ops.

[viv]

Put the 737 on the 787 contract ( including super)

[SkyScanner]

The mail I’m getting is that they are also going to go for 457 visas for direct entry 737 FOs. They just don’t get it, fix the short haul contract and the training will drop. I’m also hearing 6 787s coming from October 2019 thru to April 2020 at which point all the 747s will go. All this will do of course will make the training problem worse. I believe Joyce met AIPA on Wednesday, what was discussed I do not know.

And how do you suppose they will run jnb and scl?

And no, that can’t freeze 737 pilots

[mrdeux]

Presumably later this year, when more 787s arrive, and they pay off a bunch of 747s...there will be another RIN. I wonder if any of those newly minted 787 pilots will lose their slots to the displaced 747 people.

None of this would be happening if QF had a reasonable recruitment system, and took a few pilots every year, instead of turning the spigot on and off every decade or so.

[Street garbage]

Presumably later this year, when more 787s arrive, and they pay off a bunch of 747s...there will be another RIN. I wonder if any of those newly minted 787 pilots will lose their slots to the displaced 747 people.

None of this would be happening if QF had a reasonable recruitment system, and took a few pilots every year, instead of turning the spigot on and off every decade or so.
If they RIN off the B747 quite a lot of the senior people there would be able to displace junior A380 people- and so on...
MDC for the B737 please.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

It seems like even the Boeing Chief Pilot or Chuck Yeager would have a 50/50 chance of a knockback from QF.

No disrespect, but if Mr Yeager didn’t have a 99% likelihood of a knockback, then QF would really have to reconsider its selection criteria. Also, he’s 95, so would have to join as a direct entry FO on the 737.

[mrdeux]

If they RIN off the B747 quite a lot of the senior people there would be able to displace junior A380 people- and so on...
MDC for the B737 please.

They don't RIN from the top, but from the bottom. And you need to be RINned to be able to displace. So, yes, some can displace to the 380, but not a lot. On the other hand, pretty well all (from 747 and 380) could displace to the 787.

I'm probably glad that my time is just about up.

[Street garbage]

They don't RIN from the top, but from the bottom. And you need to be RINned to be able to displace. So, yes, some can displace to the 380, but not a lot. On the other hand, pretty well all (from 747 and 380) could displace to the 787.

I'm probably glad that my time is just about up.
I disagree, only because I was senior on the B767 (top 20), when they RIN'd I was able to bid for the A380 and was awarded it.
I am happy for you that your time is up, because you can get before this mob totally destroy the place. Cheers.

[V-Jet]

It seems like even the Boeing Chief Pilot or Chuck Yeager would have a 50/50 chance of a knockback from QF.

If Mr Yeager applied with his boyfriend they would have no problems.

[Keg]

To the original premise by Rated De. Freezing pilots on the 737 doesn’t help with crewing the A330, 787, and A380 vacancies that exist. Those vacancies (and there are lots of them) still need to be filled. The crewing shortages are almost as bad on the A330 in any case.

[dragon man]

If they RIN off the B747 quite a lot of the senior people there would be able to displace junior A380 people- and so on...
MDC for the B737 please.

If they RIN off the 747 totally it will get very interesting as they have always wanted a two year return of service after checking out before retirement. With the training system stretched to breaking point what will they do with people who can’t give them two years return of service? I know this is hypothetical but I doubt it has even entered their thoughts.

[Rated De]

Freezing pilots on the 737 doesn’t help with crewing the A330, 787, and A380 vacancies that exist. Those vacancies (and there are lots of them) still need to be filled. The crewing shortages are almost as bad on theConcur with the assertion. Airlines through the European continent are struggling. The genesis of this problem was demographic.

Previous shortages were a result of the business cycle, but whilst the prevailing demographic remained dominant (in terms of numbers) then cyclically shortages were short term.

Problematic as we have explained numerous times, which although resulted in lots of detractors is that this time is different. Their adversarial/union avoidance model of HR/IR is ill suited to handle what is now a full blown structural shortage.

Airline management have presumed that unlimited supply would facilitate sufficient leverage to drive down labour unit cost.

Rest assured the more agile and aware operators were awakened a long time ago. Australia and Qantas are neither different nor exceptional. It has simply taken a while longer to manifest itself in the antipodes.

Qantas laying the groundwork as it has first been felt in their regional airlines, next will be the 737 and then progressively the more senior fleets.

The pattern at other airlines is no different.

[IsDon]

Rumour has it (this is Prune remember) is 620 training slots for the next training year, FSO possibly out Monday.

dragon man, my (limited) understanding of the RIN process (I have only had it once, others are up to 3) is there no return of service/ freeze if you are Rin'd.

I’ve had 7 RINs so am a bit of an expert. All bets are off in a RIN. Freeze periods are company discretion anyway.

[dragon man]

Rumour has it (this is Prune remember) is 620 training slots for the next training year, FSO possibly out Monday.

dragon man, my (limited) understanding of the RIN process (I have only had it once, others are up to 3) is there no return of service/ freeze if you are Rin'd.

Understand that and thank you, but it’s a question of best utilisation of the training system for a limited return unless the USA goes to 67 retirement. I know they never want another RIN as the last one was such a debacle.

[mrdeux]

I disagree, only because I was senior on the B767 (top 20), when they RIN'd I was able to bid for the A380 and was awarded it.
I am happy for you that your time is up, because you can get before this mob totally destroy the place. Cheers.

Yes, but in the case of the 767, everyone was being RINned. I expect that there were a couple of mechanisms at play that decided which slots people would get. I presume though, that you didn’t displace anyone, but were awarded the slot...which is a different animal.

How on earth did you manage 7 RINs?

And rather sadly, I have to agree with your comment about ‘this mob’.

[mrdeux]

Understand that and thank you, but it’s a question of best utilisation of the training system for a limited return unless the USA goes to 67 retirement. I know they never want another RIN as the last one was such a debacle.

I wonder how much difference 67 would really make. I suspect that they do their planning based on everyone going to 65, but isn’t the average somewhere around 63.

[dragon man]

I wonder how much difference 67 would really make. I suspect that they do their planning based on everyone going to 65, but isn’t the average somewhere around 63.

The planning has been so bad that I’m told now they are using 62 as the age for planned retirements. IMO with medicals etc it’s probably about right.

[goodonyamate]

Vacancies are due out by the 15th. There won’t be 620!

40 odd 787 and a handfull on other fleets. Of course, if these rumoured 6 787’s are firmed up, then with residuals, it may get to that kind of a number.

[jetlikespeeds]

All of this BS is like watching a captain start to get a bit uncomfortable in their seat when the fuel is looking marginal at the destination due to them deciding to go min fuel!

If the company had more of an interest in why some of the male pilots were getting knocked back by HR in the internal transfer process then maybe there wouldn’t be this issue. I can’t blame our guys heading off to Virgin and Emirates when they get shafted by the mothership.

[maggot]

Vacancies are due out by the 15th. There won’t be 620!

40 odd 787 and a handfull on other fleets. Of course, if these rumoured 6 787’s are firmed up, then with residuals, it may get to that kind of a number.

Including residuals, of course. The slots advertised are always significantly less.

[Street garbage]

Slots are out...

[Australopithecus]

42 on the slug and 34 on the 330 plus the 787 etc. 97 in total

Which should yield...maybe 200 residuals in the next round?

[maggot]

I was thinking maybe 400 total from that depending on so shifting

[Altimeters]

I can’t blame our guys heading off to Virgin and Emirates when they get shafted by the mothership.

Seriously??? Guys heading across the road to fly the 737? Or going onto the 777 as an SO? :confused:

[mrdeux]

Seriously??? Guys heading across the road to fly the 737? Or going onto the 777 as an SO? :confused:

Qlink I guess...

[mrdeux]

The planning has been so bad that I’m told now they are using 62 as the age for planned retirements. IMO with medicals etc it’s probably about right.

I'm surprised if they are conservative enough to use 62.

[SpyderPig]

So if life at Qantas is a sh1tshow and Virgin is a joke on the verge constantly, where does one go for a career in this industry??? If The two premier carriers are such a joke what the hell are you to aim for?

[AviatoR21]

Try being contented with what you have and remember there is always someone out there less fortunate than you!

[Gligg]

So if life at Qantas is a sh1tshow and Virgin is a joke on the verge constantly, where does one go for a career in this industry??? If The two premier carriers are such a joke what the hell are you to aim for?

I guess if you have already spent the time and money getting trained, aim for a seat before the music stops, otherwise look for a 21st century career as the best and brightest are currently doing.

[Keg]

I was thinking maybe 400 total from that depending on so shifting

If the rumoured 6 787s are ordered they’ll need to do an additional allocation. Suspect 15-20 additional Captain and F/O slots to commence training from April next year. That’ll take the slots up to the 600 mark.

[SandyPalms]

Those numbers look about right. That FSO should create around 400 movements give or take. Plus 200 initial SO endorsements (I think they said 200 recruits) that would add up to the 600 odd they are expecting without the need for another allocation.

[Rated De]

That FSO should create around 400 movements give or take. Plus 200 initial SO endorsements (I think they said 200 recruits) that would add up to the 600 odd they are expecting without the need for another allocation.


Can you folk at Qantas provide a rough guess as to the training outcomes delivered in the last year?

Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?

It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.

[maggot]

Can you folk at Qantas provide a rough guess as to the training outcomes delivered in the last year?

Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?

It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.

Extensive outsourcing, I guess not from the transformation wastage budget though. They need to work on making the outsourced training integrate back into the qf world much, much betterer.

But no, they can't do 600. It's also a quarter of the mainline pilot group.

Some courses, s/o initials and transfers may be included in that number but use far less resources.

[Dark Knight]

Extensive outsourcing

That will be interesting with every other airline seeking to do exactly the same to meet their crewing requirements.

Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors?

[Rated De]

That will be interesting with every other airline seeking to do exactly the same to meet their crewing requirements.

Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors? A very pertinent comment. There is no easy fix. From sources inside Qantas, a really interesting 'specimen' is the 'stream leader' for this little pilot school project. Amusingly with a large ego to support, the scale and scope of the structural shortage may be well beyond the capability of this interesting character. It ought be remembered that Mr Joyce is a very autocratic type individual, quick tempered and it is possible Andrew David is so worried for his tenure, the potential type freeze and expansion of the skilled shortage narrative is more about personal survival than a real solution. They are, as pilots here attest, well dis-connected from actual reality in fort Fumble :D

Mr Joyce has a knack for putting whole companies off side. The 787 training requirement that Qantas wanted to procure externally was never secured. Rather amusing story from connections involved with Qantas' last bungled attempts to secure simulator capacity. :E

[Keg]

Four pages of discussion and the only person pushing the 737 type freeze rumour is you Rated De.

And then you go and cast aspersions on a colleague using the terms 'specimen', 'this interesting character', and demean him with comments about a large ego. Personally I think it's freaking awesome that we have a pretty good strategic head who is a pilot working with the HR and other types to ensure that we don't run out of pilots.

You bang on all the time about how HR people and idiots don't understand the shortage is demographic and the minute we get a pilot in there (with a proven track record) you now start bagging him out.

You make some good points about Qantas and because of that I can ignore or look past the broken record ad nauseam content of your posts. I won't though stand by and have you throw crap at someone who served the pilot body's interests pretty bloody well over a fair period of time.

Want to take a shot? By all means do it. The cheap ones you're taking at the moment though demean your credibility and put you firmly in the 'troll' bracket.

[Rated De]

It is your colleagues at Qantas that communicated exactly what the said individual is doing.

It is publicly available on the rather impressive linkedin profile.

We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?

If you personally believe that this 'project' is to benefit your brethren and aimed at the integrity of the Qantas employment agreements then that is your subjective opinion.

Unless we are mistaken, you aren't Mr Joyce in disguise and don't actually run Qantas, so it is entirely possible that Andrew David wouldn't personally tell you what is being considered.

[Australopithecus]

So if not from the 737, from where?

Thinking about the airline's crewing issues, the upcoming cascade only goes to the 787 via (some from) the 330 to the (the rest from) the 737. The 737 is the current home of the airline's future. If there was a type freeze for both ranks from where would the 330 and 787 pilots come? I don't for a second expect that DEC and DEFO positions will ever happen at QF, especially not on widebody aircraft.

That Qantas has to train perhaps an additional 200 737 pilots next year is a natural consequence of both the lost decade and the unavoidable reality that the 737 is the junior type from which all progression must flow. ie: tough ****.

[SandyPalms]

I have to agree that this thread really is bogus. There is no “talk” of this. It wasn’t long ago that “sources inside Qantas” were suggesting that A330 pilots would be frozen, as it’s easier to train 737 pilots onto the 787. So this little tidbit is probably as likely as that. Not to mention to certified agreement issues.

[Capt Kremin]

I'm surprised if they are conservative enough to use 62.

Anyone who was at the last AIPA Retirement Dinner knows why they are using 62.

The average age of QF pilots has never been higher, and nature is beginning to take its course.

62 is confirmed.

[Keg]

It is your colleagues at Qantas that communicated exactly what the said individual is doing.

It is publicly available on the rather impressive linkedin profile.

Yep. Sure is. So what? I’m not sure what that’s got to do with either an alleged 737 type freeze or your insults against him.



We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?

I have no idea what this paragraph means. You’ll need to try again.


If you personally believe that this 'project' is to benefit your brethren and aimed at the integrity of the Qantas employment agreements then that is your subjective opinion.

Lol. Ive no doubt the project is working out the best way forward for ensuring pilot numbers into the future. That may or may not benefit my ‘brethren’ but thanks for the verballing anyway. If you believe it to be something else then that too is your subjective opinion- one that we’re all too clear about from 480+ posts saying largely the same thing.

Funnily enough we actually agree on what’s caused this shortage and that airlines like Qantas (and indeed most of the industry) have both created this issue and not seen it coming.


Unless we are mistaken, you aren't Mr Joyce in disguise and don't actually run Qantas, so it is entirely possible that Andrew David wouldn't personally tell you what is being considered.

Agreed. That logic cuts both ways with your alleged 737 type freeze.

Australopithecus is on the money. There will be residual slots on the A380/ 744 and A330 fleet as F/Os leave those fleets to take up initial commands on the 737. Those vacancies need to be covered from 737/330 fleets due to the vertical promotion issues. If there is a type freeze on the 737 where are these pilots going to be replaced from? DEFO?

[HOBAY 3]

Well, QF has just updated their NW18-19 schedules for HBA-MEL which show a continuation of 73Hs replacing the 717s (which had previously been for NS18 only), so one would hope there are enough pilots!

Has there been any progress on the 717 issues?

Are there any new rumors on the future of the 717 operation?

[Rated De]

I have to agree that this thread really is bogus. There is no “talk” of this. It wasn’t long ago that “sources inside Qantas” were suggesting that A330 pilots would be frozen, as it’s easier to train 737 pilots onto the 787. So this little tidbit is probably as likely as that. Not to mention to certified agreement issues. We hope you are right. In defence of the thread, you may care to read the title that it was posed as a question not a conclusion.

The source in this case has provided timely insights. Andrew David may not be talking openly, we do not purport to know. We do know it has been looked at. Whether Qantas attempt to execute or not is entirely speculative. Certified agreements and other obstacles are indeed present. Such a strategy is relatively high risk.

The question though remains if the shortage grows and becomes more evident (and does as is occurring here and in the USA flow up from regional to mainline carriers) and further Operating Revenue reductions follow, the Qantas board level concern may see a radical 'solution' attempted.

We would suggest watching closely the activity of the regional airlines both group and external and see whether cancellations are becoming less easily hid.


The average age of QF pilots has never been higher, and nature is beginning to take its course.

62 is confirmed.

Thanks Capt Kremin, retirement intentions are a big concern for major airlines with aging demographics.

[TineeTim]

Wasn't there once a warning on all Pprune pages about sciolists?

Rated De now has almost 500 posts. He/she has quickly become one of the most active posters in Dunnunda, and specifically in threads about Qantas. I don't claim to have read all or even most of those posts but there are two very common themes amongst those I have read- Qantas needs a new fleet, and Qantas HR is embarking on an undeclared war on its pilots (mostly the 737 pilots).
Leaving the new fleet theme alone, the HR theme has been presented without a scintilla of evidence. In fact, the assertion that started this thread is contrary to the current EBA and Australian law. The Qantas 737 fleet and its pilots are working as hard as possible, training is continuing at maximum and the last report I heard is scheduled to increase to over 20/month next year. To continue Fleet needs maximum support and flexibility of pilots, especially as the short-haul EBA expires. The answer to that need is to start a full-on war? Ask yourself what you would do in management's shoes. Virtually every airline in the world is short of pilots, big money is on offer overseas, and QF HR starts a very public fight that will disillusion all 2,000+ pilots AND require a change in Australian law by a government facing an election next year? That makes no sense. I'll say it because no one else seems to want to (although Keg has hinted at it): Rated De, regarding the topic of this thread, I think you are full of it.
'That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.' (Christopher Hitchens) RIP

[patty50]

Fly on the wall noticing, today we have domestic cancellations because Jetconnect can’t crew Tasman flights.

Seems putting JC planes on the VH register has lead to Qantas pilots getting more flying not less. Sky isn’t quite falling.

[Keg]

Putting JC aircraft on the VH register created an extra 10 mainline commands and F/O slots. Such was the inefficiency of the JC 737 operation. Of course, this exacerbates the shortage of crew on the 737 as the aircraft start to be rostered more efficiently prior to the mainline crew having been trained.

It also forgets the additional 50ish commands and F/O slots should’ve gone to mainline given the need to wind up an operation that was obviously so inefficient. We’ll see what happens over the next few years as JC struggles to attract and retain qualified crew.

[knobbycobby]

To be honest I couldn’t really care about whomever is working in a back office.
It’s not like it’s a Chief Pilot/Deputy or position of critical importance or significance.Its not even a HOFO or a managers role. Regardless of who’s co running it I’d suggest it will be but one finger in a dyke that is the shortage. Not many 457 visa holders interested in the t and c’s on offer at the lower subsidiary’s.
Keg and Rated D both agree on the pilot shortage that is impacting globally. It’s backed up by numbers and facts from Forbes to the Australian and from airline CEOs themselves.
Rather than pontificate on what might happen I’d suggest the time is right to look to improve conditions whilst the timing is perfect. Qantas has turned around now. Billions in profits, bonuses and share price records. The bad days are gone.
Doesn’t get any better than now. SH needs paid reserve and MDC.
The guys and gals deserve no less. Surely we can’t lose both in the doom and the boom.
12 hour day trips with 4 hours of sitting around won’t be tolerated for much longer. As the shortage bites and training at max it will only get worse.

[Street garbage]

Totally agree with you Knobbycobby. MDC, reserve, pattern protection and sick leave need to be fixed/ implemented this EBA.

[Tankengine]

Both shorthaul and longhaul EBAs this year - time for a few changes! :)

[engine out]

The company may be willing to give some of these things to short Haul, however in return they will want contactability. I don’t know anybody willing to give that up.

[framer]

What sort of ‘contactability’ will they want?

[blow.n.gasket]

Nothing less than indentured servitude will be entertained !
And your first born for the academy as a sweetener !

��

[Lookleft]

I dont know how it works at QF but at Jetstar if you are on standby from 3am to 3pm you have to be contactable. It can work in your favour though if an over zealous crewing officer rings you at 02:58 and you politely inform them that they have interrupted your rest and will require another 10hours.

[FYSTI]

if you are on standby from 3am to 3pm you have to be contactable.

That's not the type of contactability they are looking for. Try "we know you have 4 days of 4 sector (with 2,3 or 4 aircraft changes) 11:45 duty hours , but we just need to do one an extra one 4 sector day on that following available day as well" without the ability to refuse.

In short, they want the ability to base everything on a low base pay for superannuation, with a high hourly rate, but the inability to refuse to be assigned additional work beyond you normal roster allocation. Forced overtime that would approach 100% of base pay. Oh, and if they then cancel the flying, no pay.

You could call the current agreement a consent agreement, whereby anything over the minimum could be refused by either party. Contactability would hand the company the ability to assign additional flying without consent, ie create a new obligation on pilots to operate above minimum guarantee at the companies pleasure, without a reciprocal obligation to pay for cancellation. I suspect they will attempt to argue that superannuation should still only be based on base wage.

The creation of a new obligation would be very unpopular and require extraordinary compensation.

[goodonyamate]

............

[cloudsurfng]

The 737 is a great, fun aircraft to fly. The people on it are fantastic. Sadly, for me, it is the biggest financial and lifestyle mistake I made in my career. 7 years on it, and still no closer to a window seat on a widebody. We are getting flogged, and the award is rubbish. If I had my time again, I would have stayed on the 380

[Derfred]

You could call the current agreement a consent agreement, whereby anything over the minimum could be refused by either party.

What are you talking about? It’s not like that at all. You are always rostered above minimum, and you are required to fly it. You can also be assigned above that, if you have available days, and you are required to fly that too.

I don’t understand your comment.

Contactability is merely a requirement to answer the phone when at home, outside of reserve. Long Haul have certain home contactability requirements. Short Haul don’t. That’s the only difference.

Contactability would presumably be a necessary tradeoff for any pay protection. Short Haul survives without contactability because pilots have an incentive to chase lost flying (or don’t get paid!). Introduce pay protection, and suddenly it’s the Company that needs to chase lost flying, hence required contactability. Simples.

Along with that you lose the inviolate days off. Say goodbye to your son’s birthday you successfully bid off.

[Australopithecus]

The 737 needs a MDC that is conputed on a daily basis, not a pairing average. Long haul needs this too to eliminate those six day trips that contain four sectors.

I am an advocate of a duty/ flight time ratio in the vicinity of 1.75:1. For each 7 hrs of duty 4 hours flight credit is the minimum pay.

If you make the option for stupid scheduling too expensive it will disappear pretty damned quickly.

As far as min monthly credit...why not make it a rolling average of the previous six months? Or something more typical like 75 or 80 hrs? I like the rolling average because it has a built in disincentive to under crew.

I am also astonished that unions don't make pay freezes conditional on no exec bonuses for five years or instant claw-back. That infamous freeze we took a while back has been all eaten up in C-suite bonuses since then. Still feel valued?

Me neither.

[Derfred]

I am also astonished that unions don't make pay freezes conditional on no exec bonuses for five years or instant claw-back
^^^^^^^ This.

[bazza stub]

Astonished? We should be, but I am certainly not myself. Any suggestion that management bonuses should be frozen along with pilot salaries would be met with such a huge legal battle, no union could afford to fight it.

[Australopithecus]

That's not where you fight battles like that. You hold them up to public ridicule. Public scorn is effective when orchestrated correctly. None of us even know who their lawyers are but we all know Olivia because she is their most effective weapon.

Where is our Olivia?

[Jimothy]

That's not the type of contactability they are looking for. Try "we know you have 4 days of 4 sector (with 2,3 or 4 aircraft changes) 11:45 duty hours , but we just need to do one an extra one 4 sector day on that following available day as well" without the ability to refuse.

In short, they want the ability to base everything on a low base pay for superannuation, with a high hourly rate, but the inability to refuse to be assigned additional work beyond you normal roster allocation. Forced overtime that would approach 100% of base pay. Oh, and if they then cancel the flying, no pay.

You could call the current agreement a consent agreement, whereby anything over the minimum could be refused by either party. Contactability would hand the company the ability to assign additional flying without consent, ie create a new obligation on pilots to operate above minimum guarantee at the companies pleasure, without a reciprocal obligation to pay for cancellation. I suspect they will attempt to argue that superannuation should still only be based on base wage.

The creation of a new obligation would be very unpopular and require extraordinary compensation.


Agree with most of what you say here. However re-calculate that "High" hourly rate on your Duty hours and not Credit hours, it suddenly doesn't seem so high.

[bazza stub]

Nice in theory Australopithecus but the public would see it as one bunch of overpaid A-holes arguing over money with another bunch of overpaid A-holes.

[Ken Borough]

Nice in theory Australopithecus but the public would see it as one bunch of overpaid A-holes arguing over money with another bunch of overpaid A-holes.

.........✅

[Australopithecus]

Yeah. I resemble that remark:p

i guess the CEO will do whatever the board allows him. I wonder if there is any burning desire to try that lock-out caper again? You have to wonder about intentions if they are trolling social media already. Something to ponder while I re-read “The art of war”

[swh]

Lots of willing and able CNs and FOs over in the ME3 ready to work for QF on a direct entry basis.

It’s been good enough for QF guys and gals to do that at other carriers while on LWOP.

[Altimeters]

The 737 is a great, fun aircraft to fly. The people on it are fantastic. Sadly, for me, it is the biggest financial and lifestyle mistake I made in my career. 7 years on it, and still no closer to a window seat on a widebody. We are getting flogged, and the award is rubbish. If I had my time again, I would have stayed on the 380

How close are you to a command then on the 737?

[morno]

Lots of willing and able CNs and FOs over in the ME3 ready to work for QF on a direct entry basis.

It’s been good enough for QF guys and gals to do that at other carriers while on LWOP.

Ohh I can’t wait to see them bite at this

:}

[cloudsurfng]

How close are you to a command then on the 737?

East Coast, based on the number of slots awarded last year and the number of people ahead of me bidding for it from my last LOP snapshot, at least 7 years.
15 years seniority.

[*Lancer*]

Lots of willing and able CNs and FOs over in the ME3 ready to work for QF on a direct entry basis.

It’s been good enough for QF guys and gals to do that at other carriers while on LWOP.

Those other carriers are still taking DECs, or are they not that willing or able?

[maggot]

Ohh I can’t wait to see them bite at this

:}

Very droll from both especially your eagerness to see your industry colleagues in industrial distress

Sad mate. Sad.

[Street garbage]

Lots of willing and able CNs and FOs over in the ME3 ready to work for QF on a direct entry basis.

It’s been good enough for QF guys and gals to do that at other carriers while on LWOP.

3 lies for the price of one...what a load of crap.
QF crew on LWOP have only had DEC with Jetstar, based on seniority on the LOA. How much money did they save the Company in terms of not having to retrench Pilots? I can only imagine how many a/c would be parked against the fence if management in their wisdom had retrenched approximately 250-odd crew.
No-one in the ME3 will return based on current terms and conditions, and they are not naive enough to know QF, unless they start a fleet replacement yesterday, will be in financial hurt they will be in in 3-5 years time 9if we exist at all)..... Oh look, oil price is heading upwards.....

[cloudsurfng]

There are no more 787’s coming in the near term.

[Street garbage]

There are no more 787’s coming in the near term.
Their line is probably "No more than 787's until after EBA's after signed off...."

[hkgfooey]

3 lies for the price of one...what a load of crap.
QF crew on LWOP have only had DEC with Jetstar, based on seniority on the LOA. How much money did they save the Company in terms of not having to retrench Pilots? I can only imagine how many a/c would be parked against the fence if management in their wisdom had retrenched approximately 250-odd crew.
No-one in the ME3 will return based on current terms and conditions, and they are not naive enough to know QF, unless they start a fleet replacement yesterday, will be in financial hurt they will be in in 3-5 years time 9if we exist at all)..... Oh look, oil price is heading upwards.....

Suggest you google "captain qantas qatar linkedin" and look at the first profile that comes up, and we can all then graciously accept your apology.

[goodonyamate]

Their line is probably "No more than 787's until after EBA's after signed off...."

Could be waiting a loooooong time for SH to be signed off!

[Street garbage]

Suggest you google "captain qantas qatar linkedin" and look at the first profile that comes up, and we can all then graciously accept your apology.
So how many DEC's then? Please enlighten me.

[morno]

Very droll from both especially your eagerness to see your industry colleagues in industrial distress

Sad mate. Sad.

And there it is.

Eagerness to see my industry colleagues in distress my ass. How is that industrial distress?

You all want Qantas to compete in the free market but god forbid any mention about a free labour market.

morno

[OnceBitten]

Compared to which free Labour market do you allude to?

[neville_nobody]

If you want a 'real' 'free market' in pilot labour, you would have to abolish all work visas and you would have to have one global license accepted by all nations. Which now means you are competing with people who will be more than happy to move here with their extended family from all corners of the globe.

But I don't think you are interested in competing in that sort of free market you just want to abolish seniority and cut the grass of the FOs.

[Transition Layer]

Lots of willing and able CNs and FOs over in the ME3 ready to work for QF on a direct entry basis.

It’s been good enough for QF guys and gals to do that at other carriers while on LWOP.

OK I’ll bite.

How many F/Os in the “ME3” have 10-15k hours total and 5k hours on type? Yeah didn’t think so...you and Morno can keep dreaming. It’s called a legacy carrier for a reason. No need for mercenaries here thanks very much.

[Street garbage]

at least 20. At least 30 in total, includes F/O's and S/O's.
So 1% of the workforce..you guys really are grasping at straws to create fear and uncertainty..baaahhhh

[blow.n.gasket]

There are no more 787’s coming in the near term.


I was told the reason why no more 787’s were coming in the near term was because of FIRS16 accounting rules and Qantas is busy paying out all of Jetstar’s financial alchemy inspired leasing arrangements in order to be compliant prior to next financial year . Only so much cash flow available apparently ?:eek:

Should be interesting to see how different sections of the group are portrayed as the financials transition from GFR to FIRS Standards.

[dragon man]

I was told the reason why no more 787’s were coming in the near term was because of FIRS16 accounting rules and Qantas is busy paying out all of Jetstar’s financial alchemy inspired leasing arrangements in order to be compliant prior to next financial year . Only so much cash flow available apparently ?:eek:

Should be interesting to see how different sections of the group are portrayed as the financials transition from GFR to FIRS Standards.

Interesting and would explain why despite I’m told there been a big push by engineering to get rid of the 747s that it hasn’t happened. If they don’t order more 787s also hard to see how they will cover the flying if OJS,T,U and OEB go early next year.

[Rated De]

I was told the reason why no more 787’s were coming in the near term was because of FIRS16 accounting rules and Qantas is busy paying out all of Jetstar’s financial alchemy inspired leasing arrangements in order to be compliant prior to next financial year . Only so much cash flow available apparently ?:eek:

Should be interesting to see how different sections of the group are portrayed as the financials transition from GFR to FIRS Standards. The standard to which you refer is IFRS16.
Operating leases previously have given a dubious benefit of implied ownership on balance sheet, without the corresponding liability of the capitalised lease amount or indeed debt. The change to the standard requires the 'asset' to be 'balanced' against the debt supporting it. Further there is a requirement that the asset be reported where the benefit accrues. This is a big concern for Low Far Airlines like Jetstar. Qantas has in the past been reasonably consistent with the capitalisation of leases, the activity reported by other posters suggestive of a change in policy. ( A change ruled out under the rule change)

Further it would appear that the company is now beavering to establish the narrative and extend the grasp of the skilled shortage 457 Visa potential. The 'stream leader' and the cohort will be active in their pursuits to preserve the Qantas labour unit cost.

Qantas management will thus likely consider all kabuki theatre necessary to demonstrate the 'severity of the shortage' The shortage can be solved, for all markets clear at a price. Qantas will do everything to not increase remuneration.



Pushing Q400 against the fence provides a nice optic.



Regional flight cancellations allow the company to use their implied public service obligations to access elements of Essential Services Act 1988 No 41 Part 4 (Preliminary)

One would need to have a special class of nearsightedness to not see where this is going, either that or a nefarious motivation.

[Rated De]

At the risk of being labelled a pilot-shortage-sceptic, I believe that, before any genuine widespread pilot shortage develops in Australia, various levers remain to be pulled by governments and employers to stave off any such shortage – especially in a country such as Australia, which remains an attractive destination for many overseas qualified and experienced professionals.(our emphasis)


While AIPA has previously fought very successfully against the use of 457 Visa programs for pilots and always will, there is no guarantee such schemes will never be exploited.


As was emailed to us today.

These are the thoughts of the current manager. Before rushing to an admirable defence, could it be possible that the 'levers' referred to above are in fact the levers including skilled shortage visas and crew freezes that the 'stream lead' is responsible for pulling, albeit now for management in 'order to stave off' a structural shortage?

Cognitive dissonance is a horrible affliction.

[goodonyamate]

Who is ‘us’

[Derfred]

Rated De, you painted a scenario on the other thread (QantasLink Crewing Crisis) whereby you predicted the potential for 457 visas to be extended to cover 737 mainline. Let’s explore that here (it would be thread drift on the other thread).

Background: Because Qantas has always insisted on maintaining a separate workplace agreement for mainline 737 pilots (despite various approaches from AIPA in the past to combine the agreements), the negative side-effect for Qantas is that they cannot legally force LH pilots onto the 737. That pesky FWA gets in the way. And, as I understand it, they cannot recruit directly to the 737 due to the Integration Award.

The disparity in pay and conditions make the 737 an undesirable promotion for many LH pilots. Indeed, most LH pilots on 4-engine fleets endure a pay cut to promote to the 737 - extra stripe, less pay.

Despite this, historically, sufficient pilot numbers have always applied - presumably those who put career, responsibility and job satisfaction above money. The negative side effect for pilots is that Qantas haven’t seen a need to improve pay and conditions on the 737. (The positive side effect for pilots is that in general the only pilots on the fleet are those who actually want to be there, which makes it a really happy place to be - but I digress...)

So, to date, the 737 has not had an internal supply shortage. The current 737 crewing shortage is actually due to lack of planning and lack of training resources (caused purely by extremely poor higher level management, having ignored repeated requests and warnings from lower level management. I wish they were somehow accountable for that, but it seems that’s not how big business works - I digress again...).

Looking at the demographics and seniority of the internal 737 pilot supply, it’s getting close to the point where one could forsee the potential for the supply to dry up internally. I’m only talking about F/O’s here - in Qantas, it goes without question that there will always be sufficient internal supply for Captains.

So, Rated De, would that open the door for 457 visas for Qantas mainline 737 pilots? No, it wouldn’t.

It would be just an internal crewing problem that Qantas would need to sort out with the FWA and AIPA.

If they become unable to crew 737 mainline F/O internally, then they would just need to negotiate with the relevant parties how to introduce DE 737 F/O. As long as they are the highest paying narrow-body airline in Australia, how could that supply ever dry up?

[Tuner 2]

As was emailed to us today.

These are the thoughts of the current manager. Before rushing to an admirable defence, could it be possible that the 'levers' referred to above are in fact the levers including skilled shortage visas and crew freezes that the 'stream lead' is responsible for pulling, albeit now for management in 'order to stave off' a structural shortage?

Cognitive dissonance is a horrible affliction.

Supposed to serve as a warning to those following to be prepared maybe, so they would be vigilant?

[RealityCzech]

Who is ‘us’

Clearly it is one or several disgruntled QF pilots who don't like management or AIPA posing as some pseudo 'Europe' based think-thank :rolleyes:

[Daylight Robbery]

Clearly it is one or several disgruntled QF pilots who don't like management or AIPA posing as some pseudo 'Europe' based think-thank

Could be one of about 1500, then......

(I've taken off old guys, new hires and the 2% of true believers)

[jetlikespeeds]

(I've taken off old guys, new hires and the 2% of true believers)

They will wake up soon enough.

[Rabbitwear]

DE 737 FO count me in

[DirectAnywhere]

DE 737 FO count me in
Apply to be a Second Officer like everyone else and take the slot in Perth or Adelaide that's being offered almost immediately then.

[maggot]

You may have to do a day of s/O induction though be careful