EK pilot shortage admitted by TC

[in freedom]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emirates-airline/emirates-to-exercise-airbus-a380-options-sooner-rather-than-later-idUSKBN1HI272

The airline is short about 100 to 150 pilots, forcing it to reduce the frequency of some routes to Florida in the United States this summer, Clark said. Chinese carriers in particular were offering extremly competitive packages for pilots, he said.

He said the shortage was a short-term situation, adding that Emirates has 170 pilots going through its cadetship programme.

[Jack D]

Slight underestimate methinks

[JammedStab]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-emirates-airline/emirates-to-exercise-airbus-a380-options-sooner-rather-than-later-idUSKBN1HI272

The airline is short about 100 to 150 pilots, forcing it to reduce the frequency of some routes to Florida in the United States this summer, Clark said. Chinese carriers in particular were offering extremly competitive packages for pilots, he said.

Maybe he should try competing.

Hey Tim, I would like to fly the A380, month on month off. Tickets home in business class like I get now. Reasonable schedule while during my time at work with decent layovers that allow me to actually enjoy them. Pay can be negotiated.

Its a pilots market, if you don't like it, keep cancelling flights.

[PositiveRate876]

The airline is short about 100 to 150 pilots -TCminusAS


Hahahahaahahahahaha.


Thanks for the good laugh!

[sealear]

What about all these new flights come June, Tim?

[Joker11]

I see CPT has been reduced to two dailys. Wonder of that has to do with it...

[aeropix]

1. Tim admits to pilot shortage, even if he downplayed the numbers
2. Tim admits that the problem is the competitive package from abroad
3. Does he really believe the cadets are the salvation?

Let's see if the facts add up at the pay review.

[Mango]

Flights being cut to USA, UK, Europe and Asia due lack of customer interest. There is no pilot shortage, who came up with that rumor?

[Highway1]

Over 4 decades ago when I first got into this industry there were people (pilots mostly) warning about an impending shortage - I'm retired now but cheered to see that that the same warnings are still going around..

[Australopithecus]

Over 4 decades ago when I first got into this industry there were people (pilots mostly) warning about an impending shortage - I'm retired now but cheered to see that that the same warnings are still going around..

48 years ago for me, and every time we were on the cusp of a real shortage a watershed event occurred: recessions, wars, 9/11, GFC. This time is different* even legacy carriers have about a third of the applicants they had as recently as ten years ago.

* ignoring headlines from the USA

[Mango]

A pilot shortage only exists for those airlines that are low cost, don't look after their pilots, pay bellow market value and are experiencing loss of sight and direction from their management.

I don't think legacy carriers i.e. Qantas, British Airways, Lufthansa, KLM just to name a few are really screaming for pilots. Easy Jet, Ryanair, Wiz and Emirates just to name a few is a different story.

[The Outlaw]

Abu Dhabi and Dubai companies have recently started to collaborate after traditionally operating independently and sometimes in competition.

I think that means the big boss down the road is calling the shots in the next emirate over.

[allaru]

I guess Sir Tim will retire soon and I can only assume that he also will be replaced by a fresh university graduate.

[White Knight]

I don't think legacy carriers i.e. Qantas, British Airways, Lufthansa, KLM just to name a few are really screaming for pilots

Lufthansa stated in their annual report that they are having to trim back expansion plans as they can't recruit enough pilots...

[Mango]

Lufthansa stated in their annual report that they are having to trim back expansion plans as they can't recruit enough pilots...

Qantas says it has issues crewing the B737, but if you apply to Qantas and pass the interview process you become a SO. If they needed pilots they would at least offer direct entry FO as a minimum?

If applying to Lufthansa, I bet you if eligible, a position as FO with German Wings or other Lufthansa LCC offshoot would be offered. I don't think you will be flying for the legacy carrier?

[Plane_Sailing]

170 ( more like 800) pilots short, rumours of 6000 Cabin crew short, What does AAR have to do to get fired?, drop trousers on TC’s desk and leave a steaming pile?

[Fuel-Off]

What does AAR have to do to get fired?, drop trousers on TC’s desk and leave a steaming pile?

That would probably get him promoted :cool:

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Australopithecus]

Qantas says it has issues crewing the B737, but if you apply to Qantas and pass the interview process you become a SO. If they needed pilots they would at least offer direct entry FO as a minimum?

If applying to Lufthansa, I bet you if eligible, a position as FO with German Wings or other Lufthansa LCC offshoot would be offered. I don't think you will be flying for the legacy carrier?

Mango QF can’t hire 737 direct F/O due to the pilots' contract. They can and do however offer F/O before S/O training starts. I think around 35 new hires chose that option.

Qantas has far fewer applicants than they did ten years ago. So much so that QF is planning to start an academy to train 500 pilots/yr...200+ of whom will be for the QF group.

[Joker11]

Qantas says it has issues crewing the B737, but if you apply to Qantas and pass the interview process you become a SO. If they needed pilots they would at least offer direct entry FO as a minimum?

If applying to Lufthansa, I bet you if eligible, a position as FO with German Wings or other Lufthansa LCC offshoot would be offered. I don't think you will be flying for the legacy carrier?

Yes. You go direct to Eurowings. Austria was hiring for their fleet and Swiss just got new labour contracts.

[dallas11]

It starts with TC and then filters down the line to EGT (777 fleet nut case) .

They seem to think that a two striper cadet can replace an experienced pilot with several years of flying.

These people are nuts and I fear it will end badly someday.

[Mango]

Yes. You go direct to Eurowings. Austria was hiring for their fleet and Swiss just got new labour contracts.

So the legacy carrier, Lufthansa, is not looking for pilots its the LCC that need them.

I agree there is a pilot shortage. The pilot shortage is with LCC, companies that pay bellow market value, practice bad management and run on the smell of a oily rag. If you look for pilot jobs, those companies that fall under the above descriptions, do indeed need pilots. US legacy carriers are an exception to the rule.

[Joker11]

So the legacy carrier, Lufthansa, is not looking for pilots its the LCC that need them.

I agree there is a pilot shortage. The pilot shortage is with LCC, companies that pay bellow market value, practice bad management and run on the smell of a oily rag. If you look for pilot jobs, those companies that fall under the above descriptions, do indeed need pilots. US legacy carriers are an exception to the rule.

Pretty much. Thats the latest information my mate gave me. He said you go to Eurowings and not legacy or LH classic how it is called

[Tankengine]

Mango QF can’t hire 737 direct F/O due to the pilots' contract. They can and do however offer F/O before S/O training starts. I think around 35 new hires chose that option.

Qantas has far fewer applicants than they did ten years ago. So much so that QF is planning to start an academy to train 500 pilots/yr...200+ of whom will be for the QF group.

Who is going to train them?!:E

[Bigpants]

Not occurred to Emirates or unacceptable to simply offer commuting contracts? With the right deal plenty of UK pilots would operate from here into the network, work for a couple of weeks, then position home for R&R.

[fliion]

Not occurred to Emirates or unacceptable to simply offer commuting contracts? With the right deal plenty of UK pilots would operate from here into the network, work for a couple of weeks, then position home for R&R.

Yes it’s been proposed by many a manager who has passed through the system only to be shot down.

This time it’s different - the Freighter contract (I use that word loosely) - was a dip in the water.

I don’t believe they have any other choice now - but pride over logic usually prevails in these parts.

[Besser]

One Year facts from 1st april 2017 to 1st april 2018.
169 pilots joined and 231 left, bringing the total number from 4227 to 4164.
Attrition of 5,505 percent.
Im not aware of the total increase in fleet aircraft this year, but even with a slight increase this is quite alarming with most pilot already working to the absolute limit.
It would be very arrogant and unwise of management not to finally give in and increase TC & pay significantly. Its about time. A serious number of colleges is already in the pipeline for China.

[Cantbebothered]

I see CPT has been reduced to two dailys. Wonder of that has to do with it...

They usually cut down CPT to 2 flights during winter and during summer in SA they increase it back to 3 flights per day.

[fliion]

One Year facts from 1st april 2017 to 1st april 2018.
169 pilots joined and 231 left, bringing the total number from 4227 to 4164.
Attrition of 5,505 percent.
Im not aware of the total increase in fleet aircraft this year, but even with a slight increase this is quite alarming with most pilot already working to the absolute limit.
It would be very arrogant and unwise of management not to finally give in and increase TC & pay significantly. Its about time. A serious number of colleges is already in the pipeline for China.

Any idea of net aircraft on property from 1/4/17 to 1/4/18 ?

[Joker11]

They usually cut down CPT to 2 flights during winter and during summer in SA they increase it back to 3 flights per day.

I wasn't aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. I was looking to use EK779 for fly back to DXB. I was searching on trips and the flight wasn't available.

[Craggenmore]

Mango.

Lufty are looking for 380 trainers I hear🤪😁.

[Mango]

Mango.

Lufty are looking for 380 trainers I hear🤪😁.

You been drinking too much whiskey again?

[Econ101]

You thought it was just FD, it gets better - there's also no CC.

We have all recently seen full flights all going short of Cabin Crew. Post it notes given to Pursers with GD's explaining we are short of crew and they must make do with -1, -2, -3. Followed by a smiley face. You probably heard them on their phones outside the cockpit pleading for additional crew until the doors were closed and they were forced to deal with it.

Talk to you Purser tomorrow, but do not dare ask for a cappuccino. They are livid.

In typical EK style, our brave leaders decided it prudent to send out an email on Thursday at 1500 (just before a long weekend) to CC and state that crew complement is to be officially reduced on flights but implicitly reminded everyone that the high standards are to be maintained.

On 2 Class A/C 1 SFS officially gone and Purser to take their role and responsibilities in Business Class. On ULR 1 FG1 gone, Purser to take their role and responsibility.

Pursers to take the slack of reduced crew.

Headcount ratio at EGHQ vs operational staff skewed too high compared to any other airlines already, and now our bread and butter - customer service - the worlds best airline has decided to reduce the amount of crew onboard. Why?

Problems retaining operational employees, while maintaining full employment in an inefficient back office full of DSVPs and their followers is bound to end in tears. Why is everyone leaving? We all know the answer. The question is, who will take responsibility, who will take charge to ensure it doesn't continue? EGHQ is full of MBAs but no one with a Mbackbone. Grow up, this is what you are being paid for: Analyse, suggest improvements that cost nothing, implement change - fix things - otherwise stop wasting space and just adding to costs.

We are an airline! If you do not take care of and respect the operational employees, who actually do the work - flying the planes and serving customers - what will you be left with soon? If we all leave, you are out of a job. Think about that.

Start treating us as people and remember you need us more than we need you......

How can you possibly run an international airline that promotes itself as the best in the world and be short of pilots and cabin crew. What does this say about the management....shame on you....

[Craggenmore]

Alcohol to sleep.

Caffeine to stay awake.

The Emirates way 👍🏼😎

[Australopithecus]

Who is going to train them?!:E

I didn’t say it was going to happen...I wrote that they were planning it. The whole scheme strikes me as a Joyce thought bubble that took on a life of its own before actual experienced aviation people pointed out the many hurdles.

They just want to have a steady stream of applicants to ensure the pilots never get the upper hand.

[EchoKilla]

Very well said
You thought it was just FD, it gets better - there's also no CC.

We have all recently seen full flights all going short of Cabin Crew. Post it notes given to Pursers with GD's explaining we are short of crew and they must make do with -1, -2, -3. Followed by a smiley face. You probably heard them on their phones outside the cockpit pleading for additional crew until the doors were closed and they were forced to deal with it.

Talk to you Purser tomorrow, but do not dare ask for a cappuccino. They are livid.

In typical EK style, our brave leaders decided it prudent to send out an email on Thursday at 1500 (just before a long weekend) to CC and state that crew complement is to be officially reduced on flights but implicitly reminded everyone that the high standards are to be maintained.

On 2 Class A/C 1 SFS officially gone and Purser to take their role and responsibilities in Business Class. On ULR 1 FG1 gone, Purser to take their role and responsibility.

Pursers to take the slack of reduced crew.

Headcount ratio at EGHQ vs operational staff skewed too high compared to any other airlines already, and now our bread and butter - customer service - the worlds best airline has decided to reduce the amount of crew onboard. Why?

Problems retaining operational employees, while maintaining full employment in an inefficient back office full of DSVPs and their followers is bound to end in tears. Why is everyone leaving? We all know the answer. The question is, who will take responsibility, who will take charge to ensure it doesn't continue? EGHQ is full of MBAs but no one with a Mbackbone. Grow up, this is what you are being paid for: Analyse, suggest improvements that cost nothing, implement change - fix things - otherwise stop wasting space and just adding to costs.

We are an airline! If you do not take care of and respect the operational employees, who actually do the work - flying the planes and serving customers - what will you be left with soon? If we all leave, you are out of a job. Think about that.

Start treating us as people and remember you need us more than we need you......

How can you possibly run an international airline that promotes itself as the best in the world and be short of pilots and cabin crew. What does this say about the management....shame on you....

[givemewings]

Econ101.... precisely. CC morale is already extremely low, this is not going to help matters.

The Purser on A380 is already part of the J/C service, and all hands are needed on deck just to get the service done (let alone to the pretty impossible standards EK set) having them take on extra responsibility is going to add even more pressure.

Be sure to highlight the extra time that will be needed when operating with less crew for security checks. They are already very rushed; some crew will be required to double up their areas and some need 20-25 minutes minimum if they are to be done correctly. Already a sore point, this will get worse.

[Monarch Man]

Great post 101, you’ve nailed it, and please let me add to it if I may.

I noted with interest the latest missive from fleet encouraging openness and encouraging interaction, in a way the author is merely transferring his thoughts as to how he expects circumstances to progress, much like it possibly could back in the real world, so here is my response in the context of 101’s excellent post.

Dear Mr B.

Undoubtedly by now you are gaining an in-depth understanding of the complexities and differences between your current role and your previous roles in Luton and Swords, it is admirable that you have shown thus far a willingness to communicate your thoughts and actions in a way that shows some transparency.
I hope that as time has progressed you are becoming aware through your own methods and experience of the true nature of the organisation you now receive remuneration from. I ask you to compare the leadership style and effectiveness of your previous employer compared to the present, I’d also ask you to then view this in the context of pilot retention, recruitment and sentiment towards those that impose their missives, thoughts, whims and punitive prejudice towards the pilot workforce.
If you can achieve this, I hope as many others also do, that you will gain an understanding as to why a great many of us view anything emanating from HQ as merely lip service and animal manure designed to deflect from the key issues of ineffective leadership and autocratic ineptitude.
Mr B, until significant changes take place regarding attitudes from the top down, this growing crisis of a lack of Pilots and Cabin Crew will merely deepen as will the negative perceptions of our employer amongst potentially valuable future candidates for the roles that are needed to be filled.
In conclusion, your immediate predecessors have begun their roles in much the same way as yourself, vigour and transparency is soon replaced with compliance and non communication, until such time as change takes place get used to more resignations and a lack of suitable candidates.

Regards

MM

[BANANASBANANAS]

Great post 101, you’ve nailed it, and please let me add to it if I may.

I noted with interest the latest missive from fleet encouraging openness and encouraging interaction, in a way the author is merely transferring his thoughts as to how he expects circumstances to progress, much like it possibly could back in the real world, so here is my response in the context of 101’s excellent post.

Dear Mr B.

Undoubtedly by now you are gaining an in-depth understanding of the complexities and differences between your current role and your previous roles in Luton and Swords, it is admirable that you have shown thus far a willingness to communicate your thoughts and actions in a way that shows some transparency.
I hope that as time has progressed you are becoming aware through your own methods and experience of the true nature of the organisation you now receive remuneration from. I ask you to compare the leadership style and effectiveness of your previous employer compared to the present, I’d also ask you to then view this in the context of pilot retention, recruitment and sentiment towards those that impose their missives, thoughts, whims and punitive prejudice towards the pilot workforce.
If you can achieve this, I hope as many others also do, that you will gain an understanding as to why a great many of us view anything emanating from HQ as merely lip service and animal manure designed to deflect from the key issues of ineffective leadership and autocratic ineptitude.
Mr B, until significant changes take place regarding attitudes from the top down, this growing crisis of a lack of Pilots and Cabin Crew will merely deepen as will the negative perceptions of our employer amongst potentially valuable future candidates for the roles that are needed to be filled.
In conclusion, your immediate predecessors have begun their roles in much the same way as yourself, vigour and transparency is soon replaced with compliance and non communication, until such time as change takes place get used to more resignations and a lack of suitable candidates.

Regards

MM


Brilliant MM.

Your letter should be forwarded to Mr B immediately, as well as being printed multiple times and stuck on the toilet walls of every bog in EGHQ.

[glofish]

The world “According to Tim”:

- Attacks from the US airlines about subsidies for EK are unfair and untrue, because the real cause is EK’s superior product and better pricing.
- Superior product and better pricing from a very bad neighbor are unfair, because they are subsidised.
- Pilot shortage is only due to unfair better conditions at the competition.
- The competition is merely jealous, because their managers were so incompetent in not ordering the highly profitable A380.
- EK can’t get these money making machines on line fast enough.
- Recruitment problems are only due to the false and fake portrayal of the fantastic perks and conditions by EK’s ungrateful in house FD and CC.
- If countries like Canada or Germany would completely liberalise Ek’s access to all of their airports, the GDP of these countries would jump to unknown heights thanks to EK’s contribution.
- If STC wouldn’t have been knighted and HH’s doped horses would’t have been re-allowed to Ascot, Rolls Royce would have gone bankrupt ……

[Smoke mountain]

Let's be realistic chaps,

Pilot shortage is all over the place and all airlines are affected or lets say most airlines are.. There is a lot of wannabes who have the minimum 250 HRS but jobless due to the 1500 HRS rule and jet time.. Companies are taking advantage of that and ripping people of with Type rating and line training packages.

EK , they should improve their offer but they wont be able to change a thing from bad things list.

They are investing in locals although..I think they should give others a chance .

[pilotflyingrocks]

Yes it’s been proposed by many a manager who has passed through the system only to be shot down.

This time it’s different - the Freighter contract (I use that word loosely) - was a dip in the water.

I don’t believe they have any other choice now - but pride over logic usually prevails in these parts.

Asking as a curious outsider, what are the main reasons EK has previously had against commuting contracts?

[allaru]

Let's be realistic chaps,
Companies are taking advantage of that and ripping people of with Type rating and line training packages.


Yes they should offer line training packages...charge say $150/hr for the 777 and $12.50/hr(negotiable) for the 380 .

Asking as a curious outsider, what are the main reasons EK has previously had against commuting contracts?

They want the money spent in Dubai...get half the salary back into the Dubai economy rather than lose 100perc of it being spent overseas. Thats why off shore bases will NEVER happen.

[Fat Busdriver]

They want the money spent in Dubai...get half the salary back into the Dubai economy rather than lose 100perc of it being spent overseas. Thats why off shore bases will NEVER happen.[/QUOTE]

There are approx 4000 pilots in Emirates, lets say half of them (2000) are interested in a commuting contract and will spend approx 4000 Euros less then their colleagues a month inside UAE it makes it around 96 million Euros per year, sure a lot of money but there are 2,5 million residents and god knows how many tourists! (less than 0,1% of the population are the 2000 pilots we are talking about) a piss in Mississippi! Just imagine how much money they are loosing by not having enough pilots and CC? They are stupid and proud thats it!

[donpizmeov]

Many years ago a British business advising company was paid a considerable sum, for what must have been several minutes of work, that proved based pilots would be a huge cost and lost flexibility rather than non based pilots. These findings have also been used to avoid commuting contracts.

[glofish]

Maybe that same company, for an even more considerable sum, could spend a few more seconds of its invaluable work to prove that a lack of pilots could be an equally huge cost and even more lost flexibility.

But in this region it would cry for a culprit, so .....

[BANANASBANANAS]

Maybe that same company, for an even more considerable sum, could spend a few more seconds of its invaluable work to prove that a lack of pilots could be an equally huge cost and even more lost flexibility.

But in this region it would cry for a culprit, so .....

One of the biggest 'obstacles' to basings, particularly in Europe, USA, Aus/NZ is that EK could well find itself bound by local Labor laws. It has happened to Cathay in Paris and, in a smaller and slightly different way, to EK already in Japan.

There is no way imho, even in light of the desperate crew shortages that EK now faces, that basings will ever be seriously considered.

[halas]

On top of local labor rules there is the most strong of undercurrents, jealousy.

If we can't live away from here, why should you?

halas

[fliion]

Basings - no, agreed.

But legally the Freighter contract is a template that they are obviously comfortable with. It’s not an overseas base, purely days off.

Just tweak it. Firm seat r/t, and less days on ratio.

Plenty of takers.

[fatbus]

People have to stop thinking basings. As mentioned the freighter is a good template. That being said don't expect much from STC. Funny how no one that knows someone who know s someone who claims to know the profit share .

[Fat Busdriver]

As others have already said it, it does not need to be a "base" with all what that means, reverse roster is not illegal is it? (anybody with more info on this?)
Chinese do it all the time! Or at least a good roster, 10 on 7 off or something like that with confirmed tickets or at least be able to use the jumpseat. They would be covered with pilots like Justin Bieber is with teenage girls!

[ironbutt57]

doesnt have to be "basing", just reverse rostering...

[BANANASBANANAS]

doesnt have to be "basing", just reverse rostering...

In theory, yes. But the way these things tend to go is that, first, the relevant tax authority decides you are resident for tax purposes and, secondly, there is resistance to the reverse rostering system by, and representation from, other unionised airlines who feel that their members jobs, terms, conditions and benefits are at risk of being undercut by non union airlines operating from within their country - even though it may be called reverse rostering.

Before you know where you are, either an employee has decided to try to claim the protection of the local labor laws, or other airline union representation has forced the reverse rostering practice to be cancelled.

The only airline I know that seems to make a success of it is Korean who, correct me if I am wrong, pay your Korean tax for you. As income in UAE is still (for the moment) tax free, there is likely to be a substantial tax burden on reverse rostered bases and people who pay tax tend to demand representation.

[glofish]

There's room for that in the actual conditions, without the feared basings.

- Get back to 75h as OT baseline
- Include a new request for 75, 85 or 95 hours rostering. Up to 85 a nice OT compensation, up to 95 a huge OT comp.
- Take out the punitive restriction on consecutive days off and include a request to group d/o with remaining leave ( e.g. 7 + 5).

With this possibility, you might see a lot of pilots who previously moaned when rostered 95h wishing for that, because it pays well, and less pressing 2, because it will be self requested. At the same time others will wish for 75h and group d/o+l and be able to go home and be happy as well. This may change on a monthly base and granted according seniority.

This mix might even attenuate the actual lack of noses, but most certainly reduce the attrition.

It all comes down to have some competent guys come up with an intelligent solution.

(unfortunately therein lies the main problem at EK ... )

[BANANASBANANAS]

There's room for that in the actual conditions, without the feared basings.

- Get back to 75h as OT baseline
- Include a new request for 75, 85 or 95 hours rostering. Up to 85 a nice OT compensation, up to 95 a huge OT comp.
- Take out the punitive restriction on consecutive days off and include a request to group d/o with remaining leave ( e.g. 7 + 5).

With this possibility, you might see a lot of pilots who previously moaned when rostered 95h wishing for that, because it pays well, and less pressing 2, because it will be self requested. At the same time others will wish for 75h and group d/o+l and be able to go home and be happy as well. This may change on a monthly base and granted according seniority.

This mix might even attenuate the actual lack of noses, but most certainly reduce the attrition.

It all comes down to have some competent guys come up with an intelligent solution.

(unfortunately therein lies the main problem at EK ... )

Totally agree. Unfortunately, I also have to agree with your last sentence.

[polax52]

Totally agree. Unfortunately, I also have to agree with your last sentence.

This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda. That's why a union is so important because it unites individual agenda's into coherent, considered and reasonable solution's for the company to work with.

[BANANASBANANAS]

This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda. That's why a union is so important because unites individual agenda's into coherent, considered and reasonable solution's for the company to work with.

There will never be a union in UAE.

The closest you might get is some form of Emirates Pilots Association which can liaise with the company but there would never be any negotiation. And the company would take all the positive spin from such a situation by advertising how enlightened and employee aware they are, while giving absolutely nothing back.

Its the same when you get a call asking you to work on your day off. If you are daft enough to agree, EK logs all the data and next time they want a FTL Annex Variation they go to the GCAA and say 'How can we have a fatigue problem? Our pilots are fit to fly on days off!'

[glofish]

This is the problem with a discussion like this, in the end everybody has their own agenda

Sure, that's human nature. But that's exactly what i meant with intelligent solutions. In my raw, off the hip and "just to say" proposition i at least have already outlined two agendas that could complement each other.

One thing is for sure: The local mentality does not know what win-win effectively means. They really believe that if someone else wins only a tiny little bit, it must have been taken away from their own win.

Stupidity is the last thing that gets extinct.

[Emma Royds]

In theory, yes. But the way these things tend to go is that, first, the relevant tax authority decides you are resident for tax purposes and, secondly, there is resistance to the reverse rostering system by, and representation from, other unionised airlines who feel that their members jobs, terms, conditions and benefits are at risk of being undercut by non union airlines operating from within their country - even though it may be called reverse rostering.

Before you know where you are, either an employee has decided to try to claim the protection of the local labor laws, or other airline union representation has forced the reverse rostering practice to be cancelled.

The only airline I know that seems to make a success of it is Korean who, correct me if I am wrong, pay your Korean tax for you. As income in UAE is still (for the moment) tax free, there is likely to be a substantial tax burden on reverse rostered bases and people who pay tax tend to demand representation.

Reverse rostering is nothing more than offering extended layovers, as ones base remains unchanged. There is no change to ones employment terms and conditions nor protection (or lack of) from any union. Taxation affairs will still be up to the individual to declare and it is very feasible that one may not live in the same country where they end or start their reversed pairing anyway.

[ironbutt57]

Reverse rostering is nothing more than offering extended layovers, as ones base remains unchanged. There is no change to ones employment terms and conditions nor protection (or lack of) from any union. Taxation affairs will still be up to the individual to declare and it is very feasible that one may not live in the same country where they end or start their reversed pairing anyway.

yeah, that's what I thought...

[BANANASBANANAS]

I guess it comes down to where your reserve rostered 'base' is and what the financial and other factors might be.

Certainly can work in theory.

[INNflight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Qantas says it has issues crewing the B737, but if you apply to Qantas and pass the interview process you become a SO. If they needed pilots they would at least offer direct entry FO as a minimum?

If applying to Lufthansa, I bet you if eligible, a position as FO with German Wings or other Lufthansa LCC offshoot would be offered. I don't think you will be flying for the legacy carrier?

Yes. You go direct to Eurowings. Austria was hiring for their fleet and Swiss just got new labour contracts.

For the record, LH classic/mainline is taking on all the hundreds of cadets they've placed with their subsidiaries at Swiss/Edelweiss/Austrian if they choose to come back (most do of course). I know a few who have gotten their joining dates for this year, both on LH Cargo and mainline.
Problem is they've got enough supply with the couple of hundred ex-LH cadet pilots ("NFFs") to fill their mainline needs, so all applying who didn't train with them are going to go to Eurowings on a different contract.

Still, there's a noticeable shortage here even with the majors. At my airline we're seeing things that usually don't happen. F/Os quitting one major to join another. F/Os quitting in general to go work somewhere else. Never happened in the past years.
Austrian is facing a crewing problem, Swiss is taking direct entry type-rated F/Os onto the A320 because their in-house cadets can't cover demand and training time isn't sufficient and Edelweiss is recruiting heavily for direct-entry F/Os and CMDs also, facing a shortage.

It's a pilot's market here at the moment, even with the majors. Get on the train while you can (and if you're fluent in German... lol). :E

[F3LD]

For the record, LH classic/mainline is taking on all the hundreds of cadets they've placed with their subsidiaries at Swiss/Edelweiss/Austrian if they choose to come back (most do of course). I know a few who have gotten their joining dates for this year, both on LH Cargo and mainline.
Problem is they've got enough supply with the couple of hundred ex-LH cadet pilots ("NFFs") to fill their mainline needs, so all applying who didn't train with them are going to go to Eurowings on a different contract.

Still, there's a noticeable shortage here even with the majors. At my airline we're seeing things that usually don't happen. F/Os quitting one major to join another. F/Os quitting in general to go work somewhere else. Never happened in the past years.
Austrian is facing a crewing problem, Swiss is taking direct entry type-rated F/Os onto the A320 because their in-house cadets can't cover demand and training time isn't sufficient and Edelweiss is recruiting heavily for direct-entry F/Os and CMDs also, facing a shortage.

It's a pilot's market here at the moment, even with the majors. Get on the train while you can (and if you're fluent in German... lol). :E

Lufthansa's outlook is that they will run out of their already trained cadets by the end of 2019/early 2020. Most of them are returning from Austrian and Eurowings.

Lufthansa Airline is plannig to recruit 120 new cadets for the year of 2020. First batch started just last week next one will fallow in june.
They are having a bad time filling up these courses tho as most people are scared to end up at Austrian Airlines or Eurowings Europe where the whole package isn't as good as at Lufthansa. Over the past months they improved the package for cadets and are even paying a signing bonus for cadets starting 2018.
Lufthansa has a big demand because of not recruiting as they used to do the past years and would love to have all cadets flying as of right now but obviously because od training capacity that's not possible.

Most of the Airlines at the Lufthansa Group have a huge demand right now because so many people from the group Airlines are returning back to Lufthansa Airlines.

[Fat Busdriver]

In theory, yes. But the way these things tend to go is that, first, the relevant tax authority decides you are resident for tax purposes and, secondly, there is resistance to the reverse rostering system by, and representation from, other unionised airlines who feel that their members jobs, terms, conditions and benefits are at risk of being undercut by non union airlines operating from within their country - even though it may be called reverse rostering.

Before you know where you are, either an employee has decided to try to claim the protection of the local labor laws, or other airline union representation has forced the reverse rostering practice to be cancelled.

The only airline I know that seems to make a success of it is Korean who, correct me if I am wrong, pay your Korean tax for you. As income in UAE is still (for the moment) tax free, there is likely to be a substantial tax burden on reverse rostered bases and people who pay tax tend to demand representation.

I do agree with you, there are a lot of problems that could arise, but European Airlines are masters at avoiding laws, labour shopping, undermining the unions etc, What do you thing about Emma Royds smart suggestion? Layover for 7 days? Is it legally possible? Of course when it comes to paying tax its every man for himself, that is a personal issue, some will avoid some will pay.

[Fat Busdriver]

One thing is for sure: The local mentality does not know what win-win effectively means. They really believe that if someone else wins only a tiny little bit, it must have been taken away from their own win.

Stupidity is the last thing that gets extinct.


:ugh: :D LMAO

[donpizmeov]

While reverse rostering may mean a win for some. It will just be yet another rostering restriction for others.

[GKOC41]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66259-emirates-to-firm-up-a380-options-as-pilot-shortage-hurts

[ironbutt57]

While reverse rostering may mean a win for some. It will just be yet another rostering restriction for others.

thats why the "others" would not be required to bid it..

[The Turtle]

I do agree with you, there are a lot of problems that could arise, but European Airlines are masters at avoiding laws, labour shopping, undermining the unions etc, What do you thing about Emma Royds smart suggestion? Layover for 7 days? Is it legally possible? Of course when it comes to paying tax its every man for himself, that is a personal issue, some will avoid some will pay.

Perfectly legal. Many countries aip let crew enter on a gendec for up to 30 days. You can look it up!

[old freightdog]

What´s the latest on the nameless guys from across the road, are they still not allowed to apply? Seems like a bit of a waste for all involved !

[777-200LR]

Quite simple, the guys down South have been offered 12-18 months unpaid leave. For it to make any financial investment sense, EK as a minimum would want them to sign 3 year bond. Similar to the QF guys.

[donpizmeov]

thats why the "others" would not be required to bid it..

But I am thinking places where people would like to reverse roster from may be some of the more popular destinations. Reducing the roster satisfaction of the many for the few that get the reverse roster option. That ain't gonna work to decrease attrition.