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GLIDER 90
10th Apr 2018, 11:56
Morning All

Listening to the radio the other day some uk teacher was whining about the pay & hours etc. This constant quibbing has being going on for years and is boring, most of us work hard & long hours for less pay. They know what they are getting into before they even start teacher training.

Glider 90

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 12:08
Failed to get into teacher training then, G90?

CG

Animal Mother
10th Apr 2018, 12:16
Morning All

Listening to the radio the other day some uk teacher was whining about the pay & hours etc. This constant quibbing has being going on for years and is boring, most of us work hard & long hours for less pay. They know what they are getting into before they even start teacher training.

Glider 90

That's the thing, they don't. Poor management of schools, constant hammering by OFSTEF, ESTYN, et al, constant changes from successively incompetent education ministers, all leads to an almost impossible job with little or no thanks. Poor funding, not enough resources, increasingly poor behaved children, increasingly more demanding parents who take less and less responsibility for the behaviour of their little darlings.

It's a highly pressurised environment with high levels of stress. Why else would over half be showing signs of mental illness?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-teachers-mental-health-diagnose-issues-targets-education-school-pupils-exams-a8174101.html

If you work long hard hours for less pay, did you know "what you were getting into" before starting your chosen career? Maybe you should have chosen something with fewer and easier hours for more pay?

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 12:19
We'll have no common sense here, AM. You've been warned. :=

CG

Animal Mother
10th Apr 2018, 12:21
We'll have no common sense here, AM. You've been warned. :=

CG

Sorry. I consider myself as warned. Hyperbolic knee jerk rhetoric it is from now on then. :ok:

Sallyann1234
10th Apr 2018, 12:28
I know three teachers. Or should I say one teacher and two ex-teachers.

Both the ex-teachers give the same reason why they left the profession - 'burned out' is the expression they use.

The other teacher, who is the deputy head of a popular primary rated 'Outstanding' by Ofsted, has done fifteen years but doesn't expect to be able to work until normal retirement age. She's on medication for stress.

GLIDER 90
10th Apr 2018, 12:33
Failed to get into teacher training then, G90?

CG

Wouldn't become a teacher for a million pounds.

Animal Mother
10th Apr 2018, 12:33
I know three teachers. Or should I say one teacher and two ex-teachers.

Both the ex-teachers give the same reason why they left the profession - 'burned out' is the expression they use.

The other teacher, who is the deputy head of a popular primary rated 'Outstanding' by Ofsted, has done fifteen years but doesn't expect to be able to work until normal retirement age. She's on medication for stress.

Similar experience to mine. A little closer to home though sadly.

pax britanica
10th Apr 2018, 12:35
The problem teachers face is that they ahve to satisfy four different groups of people

1 The government via Ofsted which is an almost Gestapo like organsiation and generally disliked

2 . Their immediate managers whowere trained as teachers not s managers and have problems trying to deal with management issues like targets, flexibility, development etc -these people are still only a small way up a long learning curve as a rule and are scared to death of 1 above

3 Parents, often with unrealistic expectations and a blind loyalty to their children

4 Children the only ones who really matter but who are at a difficult age in life with little sense of responsibility or often honesty and can make life very difficult for teachers- threatened accusations, abuse , violence all of which leave teachers, feeling very isolated as the three other levels instinctively side with the children.

Also the actual stress of a job where you spend your day with kids, awkward stroppy teens down to non toilet trained whiny grubby 5 year olds who cannot be reasoned with . Spending 8 hours a day with Children -lots of them is of itself very stressful and a reason why teachers got long holidays. now they have to work on ape work and planning for much of the hols .

So in my view they have a uniquely hard job which is constantly under the micro scope and flip flops from one idiot politicians view of education to another.

Also many teachers now are products of a school system where they themselves could not read and write english properly let alone do anyhtin mathmatical.

Mrs P B worked at an 'exceptional' rate home counties school that was always highly praised and yet the Deputy Head -herself an old school English teacher would only allow herself and my wife (only an LSA ) to check selling and grammar in all letters and reports sent to parents because the actual teachers could for the most part not spell or write a letter properly-not their fault but the way they were educated.
So teachers do not have it easy and deserve their pay - just think what your day would be like if the team you lead or managed were 30 ten years olds -herding cats !

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 12:36
Mrs EM has taught since 1977 with one break of three years. Last year she went onto a half week contract. Now I reckon she does around forty hours a week. She starts at 730am on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If I suggest going away for a long weekend she insists that she can't go until Thursday because she is working. This usually means leaving off about 430 on the Wednesday, so she has done thirty hours by then. Add weekend marking and lesson preparation and she is doing a full working week for half pay. It's madness.

GLIDER 90
10th Apr 2018, 12:43
That's the thing, they don't. Poor management of schools, constant hammering by OFSTEF, ESTYN, et al, constant changes from successively incompetent education ministers, all leads to an almost impossible job with little or no thanks. Poor funding, not enough resources, increasingly poor behaved children, increasingly more demanding parents who take less and less responsibility for the behaviour of their little darlings.

It's a highly pressurised environment with high levels of stress. Why else would over half be showing signs of mental illness?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-teachers-mental-health-diagnose-issues-targets-education-school-pupils-exams-a8174101.html

If you work long hard hours for less pay, did you know "what you were getting into" before starting your chosen career? Maybe you should have chosen something with fewer and easier hours for more pay?

The answer is don't become a teacher then, you have a choice some of us don't!!

Sallyann1234
10th Apr 2018, 12:49
The answer is don't become a teacher then, you have a choice some of us don't!!

So why did you start this thread?
Did a teacher steal your girlfriend, or did you get a ticket for parking outside the school gates?

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 12:52
Four pro-teacher posters. Amazeballs! My own advice to myself re whining, was to keep it in the crewroom. Why? Teachers are still seen by many as, 'working 9-3, and 13 weeks a year off'. There are people using the job that way, but not many, and the number is reducing.

CG

(who can whine all he wants now he's retired)

Animal Mother
10th Apr 2018, 12:58
The answer is don't become a teacher then, you have a choice some of us don't!!

Perhaps you're bitter because you had bad teachers some years ago which has now limited your choice of employment due to poor results in your period of education, and you blame them for that.

BTW, I'm not a teacher. I chose not to be one and went for fewer hours, less stress and more money instead.

longer ron
10th Apr 2018, 12:58
So why did you start this thread?
Did a teacher steal your girlfriend, or did you get a ticket for parking outside the school gates?

Not 100% sure whether he has left school yet :hmm:

Animal Mother
10th Apr 2018, 13:03
Not 100% sure whether he has left school yet :hmm:

90% of his threads seem to be negative, whinging and inflammatory. Either a troll, a child or a very bitter short sighted person.

Curious Pax
10th Apr 2018, 13:08
90% of his threads seem to be negative, whinging and inflammatory. Either a troll, a child or a very bitter short sighted person.
A Jetblaster at his finest then!

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 13:09
Sadly for society most people seem to be taking his advice and not becoming teachers. Why else is the TV full of adverts telling us what a wonderful job it is and offering money to train? I am just pleased that after training I went into business rather than teaching.

Krystal n chips
10th Apr 2018, 13:27
Wouldn't become a teacher for a million pounds.

Followed by....

" The answer is don't become a teacher then, you have a choice some of us don't !!

Which, erm, slightly contradicts the first statement and we wonder therefore, well I does, can't speak collectively, if you is, or isn't ....a teacher ?

If not, what is your occupation ( real or imaginary..... this being JB either will do )?

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 13:29
My wife has been a state school teacher for about 30 years. As others have said, this "9am to 3pm, five days a week" is a fabrication. I wouldn't recommend teaching to anyone.

Pontius Navigator
10th Apr 2018, 13:35
Both my daughters entered the teaching profession. One opted for languages and enjoys it both as a TA and a Teacher. The other who completed initial training did not follow through as she found morale was poor, cooperation non-existent, and poor management. She is now earning far more assessing Ofsted inspections - not Ofsted but assessing the assessors.

The one doing languages agrees with her sister's assessment and just keeps her head down and does her job.

Mr Mac
10th Apr 2018, 13:37
There is a situation with doctors also, in that we are constantly told there is a shortage. I actually know a few (5), and I can tell you the problem seems to be that when they hit 50-55 they drop their hours to 3 days a week as pension pots are full, and get by on circa £65k as mortgages seem to have been paid off by then. These are all northern UK based not sure what the situation is in the south.

As for teachers we have an ex head of a top public school who lives close by with his partner (Legal Dir for local authority) both leaving well paid jobs at 55 for the same reason on full salary pensions. Both now doing consultancy, I do not blame them or the doctors, I am just jealous they can do it with the pension they get ! I can not see how that can be sustainable long term and some govt will have to put the brake,s on sometime.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

DaveReidUK
10th Apr 2018, 14:11
As the expression goes - "if you can read this (thread), thank a teacher". :O

Sallyann1234
10th Apr 2018, 14:52
As the expression goes - "if you can read this (thread), thank a teacher". :O
Actually I was taught to read at home by my mother before I started the infants' class. The teachers seemed to latch on to kids who had positive support at home, and probably (wrongly?) favoured them.

What I am certain of though is that teachers have to spend a lot of time 'teaching' children what they should have learned at home. Table manners, toilet use, respect for their peers, etc etc.

Tankertrashnav
10th Apr 2018, 16:10
I suppose I can say that other than a few odds and sods I had three major occupations in my working life, as an RAF officer (RAF Regiment then navigator), as a self employed antiques and militaria dealer and as a schoolteacher. I have happy memories of the first two, but I eventually detested schoolteaching so heartily that I now even avoid watching dramatisations of school life on TV. Quite the most stressful period of my life, and even if I were not too old I wouldn't go back if they doubled the salary and paid it tax free. Life's too short to waste it doing something you loathe.

It's all very well for clever dicks to say if people don't want to be schoolteachers they don't have to do it, but if we want our children and grandchildren to be educated then somebody has to do it. If the profession is getting so stressful and unattractive that teachers cannot be recruited or retained then something has to be done about it. Quite what I don't know, I'm just thankful it's not my problem anymore.

I can not see how that can be sustainable long term and some govt will have to put the breaks on sometime.


Mr Mac - correct your spellings and see me at the end of the lesson!

RatherBeFlying
10th Apr 2018, 16:44
Having been downsized after some three decades of software development and miscellaneous IT work, I taught some courses at a community college. Standing up in front of some seventy students for an hour and a half is work.

But at least post secondary students are there by choice, making discipline pretty much a non-issue.

DaveReidUK
10th Apr 2018, 18:22
Actually I was taught to read at home by my mother before I started the infants' class.

As it happens, so was I - but I don't recall my parents having to teach 30 other kids at the same time.n:O

And it's teachers (one in particular) that I have to thank for a instilling a lifelong love of reading.

Mr Mac
10th Apr 2018, 18:33
I suppose I can say that other than a few odds and sods I had three major occupations in my working life, as an RAF officer (RAF Regiment then navigator), as a self employed antiques and militaria dealer and as a schoolteacher. I have happy memories of the first two, but I eventually detested schoolteaching so heartily that I now even avoid watching dramatisations of school life on TV. Quite the most stressful period of my life, and even if I were not too old I wouldn't go back if they doubled the salary and paid it tax free. Life's too short to waste it doing something you loathe.

It's all very well for clever dicks to say if people don't want to be schoolteachers they don't have to do it, but if we want our children and grandchildren to be educated then somebody has to do it. If the profession is getting so stressful and unattractive that teachers cannot be recruited or retained then something has to be done about it. Quite what I don't know, I'm just thankful it's not my problem anymore.



Mr Mac - correct your spellings and see me at the end of the lesson!

Sorry sir, slight dyslexia I am afraid.
Regards
Mr Mac

Bob Viking
10th Apr 2018, 18:40
I spent 4 years at University training as a primary school teacher (mostly by accident but thatís another story). Following a brief supply teaching stint I joined the RAF. I am currently 19 years in to a career as a FJ pilot.

My wife has recently returned to teaching after a 20 year hiatus to produce our children.

I feel I am reasonably well qualified to state the following.

Teaching is a bloody hard profession and more stressful than anything I have done before or since. Teachers work significantly longer hours and have significantly less holiday than the vast majority of our population believe. They are also absolutely vital to the development of future generations.

They are hindered by government, management and mostly by generations of parents who fail to support their kidsí teachers. Donít even get me started on the little darlings they are supposed to educate.

The job is becoming an even more thankless task than it has ever been.

Anyone who has the opinion that started this thread is uninformed and, unwittingly or not, is part of the ever increasing problem.

Try a day in a classroom as a volunteer. Then get back to me.

BV

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 19:19
What's missing in the debate, is how great a career teaching can be. I speak as a primary teacher and headteacher with nothing but good memories. Of course there were days I wish there hadn't been- but I never felt I had had enough. I was head of 4 schools; 'my' school, and 3 others that needed help. One was a middle class catchment, the others in deprived areas of Wales. I enjoyed all of them. The secret was being straight with the parents and the pupils- I recall telling a group of parents that should their child ever tell me to foxtrot oscar, they'd be spending a week at home with Mum n Dad. They happily bought into that. In another, I rased attendance from 78% to 94% in 2 terms. All of a sudden, it was uncool to not be at school. Like most things, it's what you put in that determines what you get out. I never flew (crewman) in combat, so can't quantify that. But being a teacher is MUCH more work than being a cold war RAFG Puma crewman ever was.

CG

VP959
10th Apr 2018, 19:23
My experience of teaching is a bit like that of RatherBeFlying in post #26 above, except I taught at a technical college in the evenings when I was younger, to earn some much needed extra cash. This was in the late 70's and I was paid £12 an hour to teach electrical engineering science for two hours, two evenings a week, to day release students.

The teaching part was pretty rewarding at times, seeing someone grasp a new concept and then gaining a better understanding does give you a real buzz. However, the £12 an hour, which seemed such a generous pay rate back then, was, in reality, probably closer to £2 an hour.

By the time I'd accounted for all the lecture prep, course work and home work marking, plus keeping myself up to date with the latest changes to both the syllabus and the regulations that governed it, each hour of actual lecturing ended up being around 5 or 6 hours of work. I did it for two years then gave it up, for a couple of reasons. One was that teaching a bunch of apprentices from 19:00 to 21:00 two evenings a week was bloody stressful. A handful of students just didn't want to be there, and tended to be pretty disruptive. The other reason was that the amount of unpaid work just seemed to grow and grow. After I'd been doing the job for a year they asked me to take on some additional unpaid marking work, and that was really the final straw.

I admire anyone that can stick a career in teaching. I can fully understand the non-financial rewards, but frankly it seems to be a nightmare of a job given the restrictions that now seem to apply to pretty much every aspect of a teacher, or lecturer's, job.

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 19:30
This was in the late 70's and I was paid £12 an hour to teach electrical engineering science for two hours, two evenings a week, to day release students.


Most FE jobs around here still start at about £13/hr.:eek: It's 2018!

CG

MG23
10th Apr 2018, 19:37
And it's teachers (one in particular) that I have to thank for a instilling a lifelong love of reading.

I ended up with a lifelong love of reading despite our teachers' attempts to make it seem the most boring thing in the world. And I went to what was apparently one of the best government schools in the UK, so I hate to think how bad the rest were.

Western government schools are not about teaching kids to love reading. They're about teaching kids to sit still in a boring classroom when they want to be outside having adventures and learning useful stuff instead, and to do what they're told, no matter how pointless or stupid it may be. They were designed by the Prussians to take energetic, curious kids and turn them into drones who'd obey orders and settle for a life of boring, mindless, robotic work in factories.

Which is the very last thing we need in a world where any future factories are going to be full of mechanical robots, not organic robots. Pretty soon, the only work left will be for creative people who can think for themselves, because that's the only thing robots won't be able to do better than us for some time to come.

And Western schools are determined to ensure that very few kids here will be able to do that.

VP959
10th Apr 2018, 19:47
Most FE jobs around here still start at about £13/hr.:eek: It's 2018!

CG

That's barking mad. I was teaching electrician apprentices (mainly from what was then the South West Electricity Board) City and Guilds and ONC. This was from 1979 to 1981.

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 19:48
Crikey MG23, that sounds nothing like my experiences attending state infant, middle and secondary schools on the south coast during the 70s and 80s. There were a few dodgy teachers, but most of them ranged from good to great. They certainly didn't treat us like numbers or products.

Fareastdriver
10th Apr 2018, 19:54
They're about teaching kids to sit still in a boring classroom when they want to be outside having adventures and learning useful stuff instead, and to do what they're told, no matter how pointless or stupid it may be.

Judging by the number of Chinese students, 20,000, I believe, that come to the UK universities plus the thousands that go to the USA and Australasia, that system seems to be working quite well.

British children think that they are hard done by; try a Chinese school. Their discipline is draconian.

G-CPTN
10th Apr 2018, 20:03
try a Chinese school. Their discipline is draconian.

Teacher filmed slapping boy eight times in 15 seconds (http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/06/teacher-filmed-slapping-boy-eight-times-15-seconds-7446581/).

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 21:42
Life is getting harder for everybody. Why should teachers be exempt?

stagger
10th Apr 2018, 21:51
Life is getting harder for everybody. Why should teachers be exempt?

Not quite true - life is getting harder for the majority of people.

It's getting quite cushy for a few.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 22:13
Not quite true - life is getting harder for the majority of people.

It's getting quite cushy for a few.

Very true, but what exemplifies teachers for special treatment over the other 98%?

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 22:17
What special treatment are you talking about?

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 22:23
I think that MrsEM is worth £15 an hour, that isn't an outrageous rate of pay these days. If she was paid at this rate then her gross pay would be £31,200 p.a. Actually she earns £18,500. Around £9 per hour.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 22:24
What special treatment are you talking about?

Thats the sort of "reply" a politician would offer.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 22:31
I think that MrsEM is worth £15 an hour, that isn't an outrageous rate of pay these days. If she was paid at this rate then her gross pay would be £31,200 p.a. Actually she earns £18,500. Around £9 per hour.

With respect you are citing an individual case. Straw man fallacy.

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 22:35
Not really. Her case is surprisingly typical, unless teachers are prepared to put in twice the hours they are scheduled to do then everything goes haywire. No lessons prepared or marked, no after school clubs. The teaching hours are just a starting point. And you seem to have confused a question with a reply, they are in fact opposites.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 22:36
Ok I'll play your game. Prove it.

Impress to inflate
10th Apr 2018, 22:40
I would become a teacher BUT, I would want to bring back the cane and not just for the little brats. Some of the parents could do with a bit on tough love as well !!

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:03
Teachers, in the main, do not function in a financially competative environment. So what is a teacher "worth"? The answer is what their union can screw the government of the day for, and remember that is really the taxpayer. On a broader note, the education system is horrifically inefficient. The vast majority of students have no use for the vast majority of knowledge presented to them at school. It is primarily a system for instilling conformity and compliance to the "system" and those that comply and conform are placed on the "launch pad" to greater things. The whole shift to the Asian mantra of rote learning has exagerated this, producing increasingly "educated" automatons,although of course some automatons will be more successful than other automatons....

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 23:07
That seems to be rather a critique of the education more than it does teachers.and their unions are not doing to well at screwing the government, they have not had a pay rise for seven years.

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 23:14
On a broader note, the education system is horrifically inefficient. The vast majority of students have no use for the vast majority of knowledge presented to them at school.

Prove it!:ok:

CG

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 23:20
What special treatment? You still haven't said.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:20
That seems to be rather a critique of the education more than it does teachers.and their unions are not doing to well at screwing the government, they have not had a pay rise for seven years.

There we go, thankyou, right back to my original point. Lots of people have not had a pay rise for seven years, some considerably longer. So again, why should teachers get special treatment?

Gertrude the Wombat
10th Apr 2018, 23:22
increasingly "educated" automatons,although of course some automatons ...
... OK, so on checking I find that "automatons" is in fact a valid plural of "automaton". I guess it's a boring day in which you don't learn anything.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:23
What special treatment? You still haven't said.
A pay rise. Why are they worth it?

Effluent Man
10th Apr 2018, 23:23
That isn't what we are being told by the government though is it? They are claiming that wages are rising as fast as inflation. Shurely we should be told!

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 23:28
Being paid fairly isn't special treatment.
It's a bizarre idea that if other people are being treated poorly by their employers, that means it's fine for everyone else to be treated badly.
Taking that to its logical conclusion, it should be no problem for everyone to be working in third world conditions.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:34
That isn't what we are being told by the government though is it? They are claiming that wages are rising as fast as inflation. Shurely we should be told!

What the goverrnment "tells you" is pointless, why do you listen to those purveyors of obfuscation anyway? Looking for tips? Again, WHY are teachers worth a payrise?

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:39
Being paid fairly isn't special treatment.
It's a bizarre idea that if other people are being treated poorly by their employers, that means it's fine for everyone else to be treated badly.
Taking that to its logical conclusion, it should be no problem for everyone to be working in third world conditions.

Ah, but what does "fair" mean exactly? It's a competative world out there that the likes of teachers want to benefit from, but remain immune from the effects of.

charliegolf
10th Apr 2018, 23:43
Being paid fairly isn't special treatment.
It's a bizarre idea that if other people are being treated poorly by their employers, that means it's fine for everyone else to be treated badly.
Taking that to its logical conclusion, it should be no problem for everyone to be working in third world conditions.

Spot on. I believe it's called, 'the race to the bottom', B&T.

From where I'm sitting, it's not about money (though I'm in Wales, not inner London). Neither is it about workload per se. It's about the BS heaped upon the planning, teaching and marking which are the bread and butter bits. For example, planning is the act of er, planning the lesson. To inspectors and many managers, planning is pages of writing which PROVE you have planned the lesson. When I started, I would plan my day in note form, on a page of A4 ish. Nowadays, each lesson needs to written up minute by minute, differentiated for ability groups, and with extension activities for MAT pupils. Children have to 'lead the learning', FFS! Several posters have written about being able to read before going to school. Nooooo! The children have to discover books and reading. That's why so many can't. All this sucks the joy out of learning and teaching. If you let it...


CG

Blues&twos
10th Apr 2018, 23:46
Pay poorly, not in line with inflation, qualifications or responsibilty, good teachers will leave the profession, standards will fall etc.
The same for any line of work.
As for it being taxpayers' money - yes - education is one area where I'd like to see more of my taxes spent.

Private jet
10th Apr 2018, 23:51
Spot on. I believe it's called, 'the race to the bottom', B&T.

From where I'm sitting, it's not about money (though I'm in Wales, not inner London). Neither is it about workload per se. It's about the BS heaped upon the planning, teaching and marking which are the bread and butter bits. For example, planning is the act of er, planning the lesson. To inspectors and many managers, planning is pages of writing which PROVES you have planned the lesson. When I started, I would plan my day in note form, on a page of A4 ish. Nowadays, each lesson needs to written up minute by minute, differentiated for ability groups, and with extension activities for MAT pupils. Children have to 'lead the learning', FFS! Several posters have written about being able to read before going to school. Nooooo! The children have to discover books and reading. That's why so many can't. All this sucks the joy out of learning and teaching. If you let it...


CG
So if teaching was less stressful with less paperwork and more discipline, would teachers take a pay cut?? Also lots of other lines of work (why teaching is called a profession I don't know) have tough duties to fulfill, if teachers secured a 2, 3, 6% rise whatever then why not pilots, taxi drivers, farmers, street sweepers, everyone? That wouldn't be a "race to the bottom" would it?

Private jet
11th Apr 2018, 00:01
Pay poorly, not in line with inflation, qualifications or responsibilty, good teachers will leave the profession, standards will fall etc.
The same for any line of work.
As for it being taxpayers' money - yes - education is one area where I'd like to see more of my taxes spent.

Good teachers will leave the profession ? Well that won't be a disasterous number will it? Also I've never understood this idea you need a degree to teach GCSE. To teach GCSE or A level you need to understand GCSE or A level. The key thing is being able to impart the knowledge and a lot of teachers understand the subject but don't understand how to present it. Also I understand the "profession" is very adept at closing ranks when criticised (Remember the "whistle blower teacher" on channel 4 Dispatches a few years ago?) She got struck off for showing it as it is.

Animal Mother
11th Apr 2018, 08:06
Good teachers will leave the profession ? Well that won't be a disasterous number will it? Also I've never understood this idea you need a degree to teach GCSE. To teach GCSE or A level you need to understand GCSE or A level. The key thing is being able to impart the knowledge and a lot of teachers understand the subject but don't understand how to present it. Also I understand the "profession" is very adept at closing ranks when criticised (Remember the "whistle blower teacher" on channel 4 Dispatches a few years ago?) She got struck off for showing it as it is.

You make a lot of statements of fact (e.g. "a lot of teachers understand the subject but don't understand how to present it"). Is this just vitriolic hyperbole or do you have experience, facts, and evidence to back up your claims?

Blues&twos
11th Apr 2018, 08:26
"if teachers secured a 2, 3, 6% rise whatever then why not pilots, taxi drivers, farmers, street sweepers, everyone?"
I don't understand, PJ, why pay in unrelated professions should be rolled out across all professions. It doesn't make sense.

Pontius Navigator
11th Apr 2018, 09:09
AM, at school we had two maths teachers (Masters). One taught to O level and was inspirational, as one at my primary. At A level secret taught by the Chaplain. He was a brilliant mathematician and had worked at Los Alamos. He gave wonderful sermons full of histrionics. At mathematics he would fill a chalk board and finish with the wrong answer.

His favourite in the front row and he would then work through to find the mistake. The subjects fascinated me, mechanics, vectors and the like but he could not teach for toffee.

bnt
11th Apr 2018, 09:10
At least in the UK there is some initiative to get more people in to the teaching profession through incentives like bursaries and scholarships (https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/funding-and-salary/overview). The situation here in Ireland is fairly dire, with most on part-time contracts (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/half-of-new-teachers-don-t-see-themselves-staying-in-profession-1.3448028) so they don't even get a full take-home wage.

There seems to be an attitude here that teaching is not a "real job" somehow, and even entering the profession can leave you severely out-of-pocket. At a minimum, assuming you already have a degree, you have to spend two years doing a Master's in Education, paying for it yourself, while at the same time gaining unpaid teaching experience. Never mind living costs - the system is aimed at young people staying with their rich parents, it seems. There is no way in for experienced people who have bills to pay, or anyone not rich who wants to live independently. This (https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/comment-teaching-is-a-joy-but-i-cant-afford-to-follow-my-dream-on-just-12000-a-year-36773632.html) is a good summary.

charliegolf
11th Apr 2018, 10:52
So if teaching was less stressful with less paperwork and more discipline, would teachers take a pay cut??

Do surgeons take a cut when new techniques make operations easier/airline pilots when a new gizmo reduces workload in the cockpit/coppers when they got pandas instead of bikes? Teachers' pay is set by an independent pay review board IF the government agrees with it. Unions haven't affected teachers' pay since Red Robbo was at British Leyland.

CG

Pontius Navigator
11th Apr 2018, 11:27
Bnt, my daughter found that, she went on as a second career but was treated as a superannuated student. She was independent and wouldn't put up with the crap.

Teevee
11th Apr 2018, 11:57
Dear God!!! And the answer to everything is money??? NO! It isn't. I have been in teaching for the best part of 15 years after qualifying at age 50 and careers in the Health Service and The Post Office. I cannot think of one young teacher who I have come into contact with who entered the profession for the money. They are all bright enough to know they could get better money somewhere else. And when they leave they don't do so for the money even though they often go into better paid jobs. They do it to preserve their physical and more likely mental health. And even the government acknowledges that between 30 and 40% leave the profession within 5 years of entering it. I always smile when the government trumpets the number of teacher training places taken up. Well, here's a not so carefully kept secret; that's because a trained 'teacher' has a lot of transferable skills that open doors to lots of different jobs. A lot of 'em have no intention of going into teaching. Most people (and not just teachers but that's who I am dealing with here) just want to be happy in their jobs free from the bullying of heads who just want to keep Ofsted happy and their pensions secure, free from the pressure of having to put on a real performance five days a week 6 or 7 hours a day 39 weeks a year at a level which would make a seasoned stage performer quake and in front of a hostile audience many of who might only be there to try make your life a misery. And I know more than one who supplies a lot of stuff that the kids parents should buy them out of their own pockets. Somewhere in the education system is what is also wrong with society as a whole. People are expendable and to be treated as such.

Blues&twos
11th Apr 2018, 12:24
"And I know more than one who supplies a lot of stuff that the kids parents should buy them out of their own pockets"

Yes! My wife does that, much to my annoyance! Funding has been cut so drastically over the years that it is frequently the only way to get classroom essentials, too.

funfly
11th Apr 2018, 15:24
Then you read about these women at the BBC wingeing about the fact that they are only being paid £245,000 a year.
The education of the young, especially those from deprived areas, is the most important investment that could be made in this country.
We have serious problems in the UK with crime and drugs concentrated at the lower end of the rich/poor divide. In addition to money spent in this area (salaries and facilities) a better method of education must be developed that will attract young students not deter them. This might even involve some sort of family payments as well as different teaching techniques.
Yes, pay them to attend school, bonuses for achievements, why not.

radar101
11th Apr 2018, 15:52
Then you read about these women at the BBC wingeing about the fact that they are only being paid £245,000 a year.




Why just the women whinging about their salary at the BBC - don't they deserve the same as men then funfly?

Ancient Observer
11th Apr 2018, 17:24
Planning
I'm with charliegolf on this. The bureaucracy that is today's approved "lesson plan" is unadulterated makework for bureaucrats.

charliegolf
11th Apr 2018, 17:59
"And I know more than one who supplies a lot of stuff that the kids parents should buy them out of their own pockets"

Yes! My wife does that, much to my annoyance! Funding has been cut so drastically over the years that it is frequently the only way to get classroom essentials, too.

I painted the inside of my school twice. The whole feckin place! In the holidays too!

CG

Grayfly
11th Apr 2018, 18:01
Then you read about these women at the BBC wingeing about the fact that they are only being paid £245,000 a year.


Slight thread drift but why is anybody, male or female, worth £245k to read bits of paper over the radio?

As has been said many times before on various threads on JB, our spending priorities appear to be wrong and education is suffering along with the other necessities of life.

BehindBlueEyes
11th Apr 2018, 18:01
"And I know more than one who supplies a lot of stuff that the kids parents should buy them out of their own pockets"

Yes! My wife does that, much to my annoyance! Funding has been cut so drastically over the years that it is frequently the only way to get classroom essentials, too.

As someone who is also in education, I’ve seen this happen too. Some of the staff, unbelievably, have taken children’s clothes home to wash them because of the disgusting state that they have arrived in. My school has even supplied toothbrushes and toothpaste to enable pupils to do this most basic of personal care. Unfortunately, these children weren’t from necessarily underprivileged families, it was just general neglect and disinterest. Personally, whilst it’s not the child’s fault, i believed that a phone call home should have been made instead - a few questions as to why little Frank or Shirley was in such a state. The more you did for these parents, the less they would do, clearly assuming that the school would step in. Social services were useless; their response was that unless a child was in imminent danger, there wasn’t a lot they could do either.

That’s why whenever these cases hit the headlines, the hand wringing by the authorities leaves me very cynical.

Tankertrashnav
11th Apr 2018, 18:07
Private Jet - you really have got it in for teachers haven't you? I really wonder what the axe you are grinding is, because you really are grinding one. You obviously have little grasp of what schoolteaching involves. Turning the argument on its head I am going to assume you are (or were) a commercial pilot (forgive me if I am wrong). To an outsider being an airline pilot can seem like money for jam. You turn up at Heathrow, sit down in your comfy seat, press a few buttons to tell your aircraft to fly to Kennedy then sit back and watch it happen. At various intervals nice ladies bring you hot meals and drinks. While you are sitting there you may muse on what you are going to spend your £100k salary on.

Well of course we all know there is a lot more to it than that - and so there is in teaching.

Well that won't be a disasterous number will it?

By the way - the word is "disastrous"!

Curious Pax
11th Apr 2018, 19:53
Private Jet - you really have got it in for teachers haven't you? I really wonder what the axe you are grinding is, because you really are grinding one.

I think it might have involved the games department: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/607476-eric-bristow-dead.html#post10111883

:} :} :}

Private jet
11th Apr 2018, 21:36
Private Jet - you really have got it in for teachers haven't you? I really wonder what the axe you are grinding is, because you really are grinding one. You obviously have little grasp of what schoolteaching involves. Turning the argument on its head I am going to assume you are (or were) a commercial pilot (forgive me if I am wrong). To an outsider being an airline pilot can seem like money for jam. You turn up at Heathrow, sit down in your comfy seat, press a few buttons to tell your aircraft to fly to Kennedy then sit back and watch it happen. At various intervals nice ladies bring you hot meals and drinks. While you are sitting there you may muse on what you are going to spend your £100k salary on.

Well of course we all know there is a lot more to it than that - and so there is in teaching.



By the way - the word is "disastrous"!

I fly in corporate aviation and yes, compared to the airlines "there is a lot more to it than that"
I really have zero vested interest in this debate, unlike many of those posting here. You notice I use the term debate because "debate" is purely an attempt to justify a vested interest, although I'm sure you'd say "it's all about the children". Nonsense, do it for minimum wage and then I'll start to believe you. I offer my opinions on here & I'm interested in learning about other peoples lives and experiences but when self interest becomes involved it ceases to be a useful discussion and becomes self righteous sanctimonious twaddle. Still, if it makes you feel better then thats good for you. Go play amongst yourselves, or should that be with yourselves?

Private jet
11th Apr 2018, 21:42
I think it might have involved the games department: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/607476-eric-bristow-dead.html#post10111883

:} :} :}

In some ways I do feel sorry for teachers, bossing little children about is the only taste of authority and power they will ever have.

hiflymk3
11th Apr 2018, 21:56
In some ways I do feel sorry for teachers, bossing little children about is the only taste of authority and power they will ever have.

Yes! You really hate teachers don't you. And who taught you English, maths, science, geography, history?

Private jet
11th Apr 2018, 22:09
And who taught you English, maths, science, geography, history?
To be honest, mostly myself.
I'm done with this now. Goodnight.

axefurabz
11th Apr 2018, 22:35
And who taught you English, maths, science, geography, history? Purely on the basis of his contributions here, nobody spent too much time on his English.

Interesting that the OP seems to have disappeared. He could do with English lessons too.

roving
11th Apr 2018, 22:42
Ah, but what does "fair" mean exactly? It's a competative world out there that the likes of teachers want to benefit from, but remain immune from the effects of.
As we are focusing on education ...

competitive

adjective

charliegolf
11th Apr 2018, 23:20
I really have zero vested interest in this debate

No kids? Never having any? Or going private?

I offer my opinions on here & I'm interested in learning about other peoples lives and experiences...

Mmm, nah. You have a chip, dunno why. Your posts are not 'debate-ish', they are snipey and dismissive.

do it for minimum wage and then I'll start to believe you.

Tell us why YOU oughtn't to be getting minimum wage as a pilot, and I'll tell you why I was worth more than minimum wage in school. What is it about the money with you?

CG

Harley Quinn
11th Apr 2018, 23:24
I find that whenever I see a response like

To be honest, mostly myself.
I'm done with this now. Goodnight.

Then I automatically assume that the writer is an out and out, arrogant, Grade A Throbber, especially when, as has been pointed out, his spelling is [email protected]

Sweet dreams all.

Blues&twos
11th Apr 2018, 23:27
I think the problem which sparked the thread must be the large number of very wealthy teachers lazing about in luxury....

air pig
12th Apr 2018, 19:32
My partner is an ex teacher, took redundency and set up her own business as a computer tutor. Goes round to peoples houses to teach them how to use their computer, helps them buy new ones even sorts out things like talking to ISPs sets up new phones. Is on half what she was earning as a teacher but in the summer in particular out and about car roof down, what more can you say.

Just as long as people like Microsoft keep bringing out new operation systems, just bring out the next version of windows, she will never be out of a job.

highflyer40
12th Apr 2018, 19:43
Morning All

Listening to the radio the other day some uk teacher was whining about the pay & hours etc. This constant quibbing has being going on for years and is boring, most of us work hard & long hours for less pay. They know what they are getting into before they even start teacher training.

Glider 90

Wow! If you are a pilot, then you are one of the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. All most pilots do whine about pay and T&Cís. Arguably I would say teachers have much more responsibility to society than pilots do. They are educating the next generation, get that wrong and we are all [email protected]

Jack D
12th Apr 2018, 21:00
I fly in corporate aviation and yes, compared to the airlines "there is a lot more to it than that"
I really have zero vested interest in this debate, unlike many of those posting here. You notice I use the term debate because "debate" is purely an attempt to justify a vested interest, although I'm sure you'd say "it's all about the children". Nonsense, do it for minimum wage and then I'll start to believe you. I offer my opinions on here & I'm interested in learning about other peoples lives and experiences but when self interest becomes involved it ceases to be a useful discussion and becomes self righteous sanctimonious twaddle. Still, if it makes you feel better then thats good for you. Go play amongst yourselves, or should that be with yourselves?

Didnít make it in the Airlines ? Just wondering .. I mean those that have fairly rigorous selection criteria? which normally requires a reasonable level of education ..

DaveReidUK
12th Apr 2018, 22:01
the teaching staff (I use that term very loosely) totally abandoned me as a "lost cause"

That explains a lot.

longer ron
12th Apr 2018, 22:16
Interesting that the OP seems to have disappeared. He could do with English lessons too.

He has not disappeared - he is trolling on another part of the forum :hmm:

BehindBlueEyes
26th Apr 2018, 15:46
Primary school could close at lunchtime on Fridays - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-43906096)

Comments please - and remember to put your hands up, wait your turn and donít all shout out at once!

treadigraph
26th Apr 2018, 16:05
God the kids'll all be down the pub before me - oh, wait, it's Daventry!

MG23
26th Apr 2018, 18:25
They are educating the next generation, get that wrong and we are all [email protected]

Teachers are one of the reasons our society is in such a mess, precisely because they've been 'getting it wrong' for decades.

I remember some American politician saying twenty or thirty years ago that if a foreign power had imposed America's school system on them, it would have been considered an act of war. The rest of the West isn't much better.

charliegolf
26th Apr 2018, 19:18
Teachers are one of the reasons our society is in such a mess, precisely because they've been 'getting it wrong' for decades.


Nope. Broadly, teachers per se are not respnsible for 'getting it wrong' at all. Teachers are responsible, via heads and governors, for delivering the education system the prevailing government's whim demands.

CG

Blues&twos
26th Apr 2018, 21:43
"Whim" is an excellent description for the government's curriculum changes over the years, charliegolf!

DaveReidUK
26th Apr 2018, 22:06
Yes, teachers as a rule teach what they are told to teach, how they are told to teach it.

They are at the whim of not only the Government, but of a body of educationalists who often can't agree among themselves about what and how our kids should be taught.

GLIDER 90
27th Apr 2018, 08:18
With reading about a primary school going to close on a Friday lunchtime, now every other primary school will follow suit and close and give the stressed out teachers another long break!!