Oxford or bust?

[Biz]

Hi all. I need to pick some brains. I'm contemplating an integrated course, and have been drawn to OAT and Cabair. Does anyone have any info relating to these colleges and any opinions about their reputations, content, etc.?
Furthermore (oh, I haven't finished yet!), what concerns me as a self-financer are the job prospects after graduation. What are they?! Even after a few years as an instructor, would any airline touch you with such limited experience and no type ratings? Any other employment opportunities such as freight, biz-jets???
Would like to hear from you. Thanx.

[bottle2throttle]

BIZ JETS!!!.....forget about those for the minute.

The normal route is to graduate from a school such as the ones you mentioned and become a flight instructor or hour build some other way until to reach the magic 1000 hrs TT then probably start with a regional tubo prop on a low salary flying **** routes then once you've about 3000 TT think about applying to majors.

most graduates find it had to find a job with the bare 250 hrs with they churn you out with.

The marget place for pilots is ment to be good at the moment and getting better, however reading this forum tells me otherwise!

As far as choosing the right school is concerned I would definatly choose Oxford - I did, I'm starting next september.

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Jesus, this bogy's all over me...........

[prob30]

Woaahhh! hang on a minute....airlines are taking self sponsored students on straight out of flying school. Job prospects are good! As far as a college goes, narrowing it down to cabair and oxford is good. Go to their free seminars and check the places out. I found oxford a dissapointment all around - a very cold place. Cabair is much more friendly. Their course notes are poor, but the extra handouts you get more than make up for that. Go to both and see what suits you.

[Capt Wannabe]

Just out of interest, how did you narrow it down to Oxford and Cabair?

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CW
The original not the imposter!

[Hannibal Smith]

Heard Cabair are to be avoided. Geezer down my local airfield said that cause his son is there and he said they suck but....

Oxford should be a better option but why not look at BAe. BA still send their cadets out there so it has a good rep.

The Hannibal.

[AMEX]

Talking about OATS, I just heard they might be moving the Gloucester OPS back to Oxford. The reason is, they have now slots available out of Oxford due to some of the training now taking place in the States.
Not a major drama I suppose, except for the guys who work for them as this change could take effect shortly (heard a matter of weeks but who knows...).
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :)
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

[This message has been edited by AMEX (edited 17 June 2001).]

[cortilla]

im at cabair now, some things aint that great like in all schools, but right now i'm having a great time, and learning all the stuff you need to know. if you're putting in the work then you'll pass, if you don't then you'll fail simple as that, i have no major complaints, just a moan every now and again

[Autofly]

Prob30 ..... I'd like to know where you got your info from. The general concensus of the seminars last week were that the propects of finding an airline job straight out of a school are good by no means good. The only people who are telling us its good are the schools.

The chances of you flying for a major airline on completion of any course are not impossible but are not good. Any wannabe that thinks its good should think again. The hardest job you'll get will be your first flying job and once your on the ladder it gets a little easier but by no means a doddle. Ask Capt PPRuNe. He spoke me/us at length the time, effort and route he went to get his first job and it shocked me to be quite honest. I not 'having a go' as it were but just trying to tell it like it is.

To follow on from CW point ..... i know what your getting at. OATS/Cabair/BAe/SFT are not the only schools which churn out frozen ATPLs. Have you heard of the one at East Midlands airport???? Niether have I but I bet there's one there! If people really shop around then you can get an ATPL for 30k. The idea that it won't be credable if you don't get it from OATS etc. is rubbish because a) they do the same course/exams/tests and b) future employers don't care where you did your training, just that you've done it. All they want to know is how many hours you've done and what you did doing them (i.e. licences). I am not saying don't go to these schools ..... if I had the money i'd go to one but if your a self sponsored person you can get so much more for your cash. Think about it and shop around.

All wannabes ...... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to the next set of seminars run by PPRuNe (Sorry IFR .... your gonna need a stadium next time). You will learn so much about the realisitic ways the industry runs and not the "well i've got my licence now so where's my gold plated jet to go with it" idea.

Sorry to have come over a bit strong but this need to be said.

Autofly



[This message has been edited by Autofly (edited 17 June 2001).]

[3Greens]

BTW BA don't send cadets to Jerez!!

[Capt Wannabe]

3Greens, not totally correct. BA send their cadets to Jerez for MCC training once they have done the IR at Oxford or WMU. However there is no BA MCC course there at the moment as there is such a backlog of cadets coming out of Oxford.

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CW
The original not the imposter!

[NewBloke]

Yet again I find myself completely confused as to how much bias airlines place on where you obtained your qualifications. Anyone else or am I the only one!?!? Some say they do, others say they don't. Is anyone able to provide a definitive answer ??? Any recruiters out there !!? Pleeeaassseee.... It's obviously a major consideration when applying for an integrated course.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Newbloke I'm afraid to say that indeed you yourself have just hit the nail on the head...the simple answer is that some do, some don't. The industry is no different to many others in that respect i.e bias for whatever reason, whichever way it swings, is rife. Some airlines would rather take on modular guys than integrated, and vice versa. If you think it is worth paying the extra cash for the integrated course of training held at one of the more so called prestigous schools because of the name and the perceived weight that holds then that is a judgement call only you can really make. It really is all a matter of opinion, and I feel that is the closest you will get to a definitive yes or no. Not that helpful I know, but I'm afraid it is a call a lot of us have had to make. Whichever school you decide on, if you believe in your own ability and determination, you will be attractive to "the majors" come hell or high water sooner or later. However it would be nice if any recruiters out there could respond.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

3Greens - British Airways renewed their long standing relationship with BAE flight training a few months back when it signed a very large contract indeed to send the cadets post OATS to BAE Jerez for their LOFT training (Line Orientated Flight Training) which BA likes to call JOC (Jet Orientation Course).

This is where you take a piston pilot and turn him into a jet operator. Its a very good course and BA have run it with BAE in Prestwick for years. Its largely the reason they can take so many 18 year old - I just saw the advert and applied - actually I'm scared of heights - cadets and put them striaght online in the London TMA.

There's more to flight training than ab inito you know.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. DO NOT put any stock by a schools ability by the fact an airline chooses to use it.

And airline contract has all kinds of stipulations and performance gaurantees that YOUR contract with the school will not have. The Airlines a quite mercenary and are largely looking for the school with the lowest fees and the handiest location for them to come and visit their cadets. They regualrly change schools over the years with very little apparent reason.

I myself went for my Multi, and IR to a tin pot looing outfit in a WWII potting shed on the wrong side of Bournemouth airfield. I received fantastic personalised training at a very keen price. I have yet to seen that training beaten by anything that BAE did, or my good friends at OATS do.

Those glossy brochures cost money you know. Yours.

Good luck,

WWW

[Autofly]

Hey WWW ..... where's that story I heard you were righting ...... "WWW and how I became an Airline Pilot" ..... any news or are you gonna tell me to do a search.

AF

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Autofly,I don`t know about you mate,But I think it`s time that WWW gave us his story that he keeps promising to write.I mean as one of the Wannabes Moderators it`s only "right and proper",that he gives us wannabes a sneak preview. :) :) :)

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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ok Ok,I *will* do a summary of how the last 10 years got me from 16 year old Wannabe to Jet FO. Its just that I don't have much spare time what with 900hrs a year, the nightstops, the parties, the hostie chasing and the constant pressure to spend every greater sums of money on premium consumer goods.

Give me a week or two.

As for the book - well, the publishing deal is done its just finding the time...

WWW

[Mister Geezer]

Well to choose between Oxford and Cabair. I feel that is ultimately your decision. Go and visit both places and see what the places are really like.

Visit them, ask questions and look at the whole set up and ask yourself whether you would be comfortable in parting with your cash.

You would probably want an exact choice from me however I feel that what is right for me or anyone else might not be the right choice for you. We are all individuals and the argument could go on for a long time.

The employment market looks god at the moment and the trend is forecasted to continue into 2002. In otherwords if you can do it then go and do it. I am currently on an ab-initio course and naturally it is very hard work but the only word to describe it all would be: 'Fantastic'

I wish you all the best!

MG

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Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[Send Clowns]

Why do an integrated course? Why Cabair/OATS only? Do you light cigarettes with fivers as well? Take a modular course, just do it straight through.

Modular courses tend to be cheaper. The fact that a course is approved is the only important factor at the end of the day. Look to SFT as well, and Multiflight in Leeds (I think they are now approved, but check, approval is important), and look to some of the schools that just do groundschool and then at others that do flying side (PPSC, ATA etc then Proflight etc).

I chose SFT because I wanted one school straight through, in the UK (only the 3 then) it was cheapest (by several thousand pounds!), arranged flying in Florida for hour building (Naples now, then OBA) to keep that low price and Bournemouth has better weather and is a proper airport with its own ILS and NDB approaches. I have been very pleased.

Groundschool is the most critical factor at the moment, so choose that wisely. OATS and Cabair results look good (not that good!) but remember many of their students are not self-selecting, so the results are distorted toward 'better', more academic, younger candidates many of whom have never left education. The instruction at SFT is as good. Several SFT ground instructors have worked at Oxford, Cabair or Bristows groundschools, some have open invitations to jobs in those schools, so the quality of instruction is the same. They are much more friendly and helpful than some schools who don't always help once the standard course is complete unless you pay them more.

Certainly on the flying side I was very pleased, good instruction, good first-time pass rate on IRT. The area is great to fly in (duty-free shopping on Alderney on the IR course!).

Cabair looked OK, I attended a seminar and was impressed, but they tried to sell me an integrated course (not what I needed, with half my hours-building not required) and they were expensive compared to SFT. The location is a little far out of town, and Bedford is a bit of a dump anyway (I lived there for 6 months) so a year there would be dull. Bournemouth is fun, lots of young people, lots of bars, sand and sea. You don't go out a lot, at least for 6 months in groundschool, so when you do it has to count!

Oxford I never even visited, as they were incompetent enough to not answer three phone calls (in office hours) nor call me back after I left a message. I did not want to fly with people whose admin was that poor. I have since heard of their treatment of modular course students, so am glad.

Jobs? They are out there, forecasts are very good.

Finally, wherever you go the very best of luck. It's a tough course, can be miserable in groundschool, but well worth it.

SC

P.S. look at SFT's website (http://www.sft.co.uk) for more details. Sorry, don't know the addresses for other schools.

[This message has been edited by Send Clowns (edited 24 June 2001).]