Chief of the Defence Staff goes all PC

[rolling20]

Armed Forces head threatens to block promotions unless officers improve inclusivity | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5590377/Armed-Forces-head-threatens-block-promotions-unless-officers-improve-inclusivity.html). Reminds one of the Monty Python sketch,' I suppose you don't want to be marching up and down, you'd rather be at the pictures? Off you go then!'. On a more serious note, I am surprised over the years that no one has challenged the RAFs age policy on flying training. Whilst one understands the reasons behind it, it does preclude a lot of individuals. FJ maybe not,but I would have thought older ME pilots were feasible? And not ones that have served previously.

[Wensleydale]

So does this mean that the Guards Division will have officers who don't have access to a private income?

[glad rag]

How can he "block promotion"?

Sounds like collective punishment.

[josephfeatherweight]

Chief of the Defence Staff goes all PC
They ALL do...

[Old-Duffer]

A very large number of officers have little or no responsibility for personnel and certainly don't have much say in the posting cycle of individuals. Their influence in the areas of LGBT and the rest of the diversity/inclusivity agenda is limited by the nature of the appointment in which they serve.

The services already suffer badly from the complaints procedure, which is regularly used to dispute lawful commands or to try to get 'revenge' when things don't go the way the complainant wants. The management of complaints is one of the few 'growth' industries within Defence and it would be interesting to know the numbers of personnel and their ranks who are involved in the management of the process and its cost to the Defence budget.

Unfortunately, General Carter is probably the wrong choice of CDS at this time IMHO and if the comments credited to him are true, he has just shown why.

Old Duffer

[Tankertrashnav]

So does this mean that the Guards Division will have officers who don't have access to a private income?

Ok, so it's Household Division, not foot guards, but I bet this bloke's got a private income!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/826558/Queen-new-equerry-major-nana-kofi-twumasi-ankrah-war-veteran-household-cavalry

[Basil]

Well, we had an ethnic minority Flt Lt nav and a foreign born Sqn Ldr on a squadron on which I served in the sixties so perhaps the Army think they have a bit of catching up to do. :rolleyes:

[brakedwell]

Better not repeat the old non PC joke about the Kings African Rifles :ouch:

[Wander00]

so rather than starting at the bottom of the food chain, how many gay, ethnic diversified and LGBT people has he got at Service Board level and just below. cannot see his annual report looking too good in that respect.....

[The Oberon]

Better not repeat the old non PC joke about the Kings African Rifles :ouch:

Or the old John Bird sketch about Idi Amin coming to England.

[langleybaston]

Better not repeat the old non PC joke about the Kings African Rifles :ouch:

Only the Privates are black.

So there.

[brakedwell]

Only the Privates are black.

So there.

Spoil sport :*

[Brian W May]

He forgot to mention 'Leave will be cancelled until morale improves' . . .

He's another politician (despite the uniform) that will be totally unaffected by his own decisions.

Yep, more PC bollocks.

[The B Word]

On a more serious note, I am surprised over the years that no one has challenged the RAFs age policy on flying training. Whilst one understands the reasons behind it, it does preclude a lot of individuals. FJ maybe not,but I would have thought older ME pilots were feasible? And not ones that have served previously.

That is where some of our old and bold from the helicopter and fast-jet fleet go, so if we took in direct entrants to fill those places, then that opportunity would go. Now that there are dwindling places on MFTS to go as an instructor as well, this problem is even more accute. So opening up to an older cadre would see us having no places for those that can’t deal with the 9g pounding on their bodies, being rattled to bits with NVGs+weight on their necks or the stress of getting shot down with a need to E&E until rescue.

Finally, it is also a question of supply and demand - even with an age cap of 26, the RAF still has many thousands of applicants for just over a hundred vacancies; so why would it want to raise the age limit to attract older persons who may not have the reach for the higher ranks or are unable to give a full Service career length?

Anyway, those older ones aren’t precluded, they should have just applied when they were younger!

The B Word :ok:

[Basil]

I was 24 and ten days when I first tested an RAF instructor's sense of humour and courage. I felt then that I was an old guy and did wish that I'd started between 16 and 18.
I'm surprised that the max age limit is still 26 but I'm sure they know best.





;)

[rolling20]

That is where some of our old and bold from the helicopter and fast-jet fleet go, so if we took in direct entrants to fill those places, then that opportunity would go. Now that there are dwindling places on MFTS to go as an instructor as well, this problem is even more accute. So opening up to an older cadre would see us having no places for those that can’t deal with the 9g pounding on their bodies, being rattled to bits with NVGs+weight on their necks or the stress of getting shot down with a need to E&E until rescue.

Finally, it is also a question of supply and demand - even with an age cap of 26, the RAF still has many thousands of applicants for just over a hundred vacancies; so why would it want to raise the age limit to attract older persons who may not have the reach for the higher ranks or are unable to give a full Service career length?

Anyway, those older ones aren’t precluded, they should have just applied when they were younger!

The B Word :ok:
I only suggested that the age bar should he raised for ME pilots. Why should the RAF not look at pilots above 26 who are already hold an ATPL or CPL/IR, who would sign on for a minimum term? Legally it would I think be on very frail territory if it was ever brought to a test case and I am surprised it hasn't happened yet. I don't know if it was on here, but there was a case of a serving non aircrew ,I think Officer, who got himself an ATPL and although over age, was accepted for RAF flying training.

[Timelord]

I think it is still the case that ALL pilots are recruited as potential FJ pilots in that they have to satisfy the age, medical, anthropometric and fitness requirements. Those who, for one reason or another, don’t make that stream go to ME or RW. I would be surprised if the RAF broke that rule because someone had an ATPL

[baffman]

I only suggested that the age bar should he raised for ME pilots. Why should the RAF not look at pilots above 26 who are already hold an ATPL or CPL/IR, who would sign on for a minimum term? Legally it would I think be on very frail territory if it was ever brought to a test case and I am surprised it hasn't happened yet...
FYI the armed forces are exempt from age discrimination legislation.

[Cows getting bigger]

I left the RAF some 10 years ago and, at that point, we were generally very well in touch with 21st century society. It seems like the general is probably trying to address his own personal weaknesses, not those of the 100+ thousand personnel who will serve under him and (generally) get along just fine.

So, not being promoted for failing to adopt a positively discriminative stance? I bet the Air Sec is already tearing her hair out at the thought of the pile of casework coming her way. :)

[heights good]

The services already suffer badly from the complaints procedure, which is regularly used to dispute lawful commands or to try to get 'revenge' when things don't go the way the complainant wants. The management of complaints is one of the few 'growth' industries within Defence and it would be interesting to know the numbers of personnel and their ranks who are involved in the management of the process and its cost to the Defence budget

Old Duffer

I must disagree, whilst there are undoubtedly abuses, these are weeded out fairly quickly.

The SC procedure is a fantastic system, albeit with some faults, however I have personally seen around 20 victories that were just, correct and prevented a dangerous precedent being set. 2 of these were my own, the first was the Chf Clk refusing to reimburse me for a long weekend abroad after a short notice deployment came up.

She refused to accept I had no knowledge of the det prior to booking my flights abroad. You see, I didnt have proof of me not knowing i didnt know anything... I kid you not! It turned out there were around 10 similar claims in the previous 18 months she had refused.

The second was a simple case of a 1RO who had mentally left the RAF and couldn’t be bothered putting even a token effort into my report. He had added great grades and words but nothing to join then up with any sensible structure. 2RO was too scared of rocking the boat but did write a great report. Long story short, previous reports from the 1RO over the previous few yrs were looked at and the problem was rectified.

I would have been £650 out of pocket and missed a promotion had I not had any other avenue to explore.

[Flight_Idle]

I served in the ranks for most of the seventies when any hint of 'Gayness' would be hunted down punished & ultimately dismissed from the service.


Even today, I cannot imagine in my own mind openly gay people in service, thanks to the way it was then. It somehow reminds me of the American 'Black squadrons' of the second world war in a way.


I had left the service long before the instant 'About turn' & feel it must have been forced upon them, probably by the EU thing.


I would have liked to have observed this sudden 'About turn' seeing grim faced investigators having their cases dropped on the spot! Guilty one moment, not guilty the next.


I would have liked to have seen this change in attitude first hand & I suspect the whole thing was very carefully planned with new entries coming in all the time.


The whole 'PC' thing is very 'Pick & mix' I would support some arguments, but not others.

[BEagle]

Once upon a time, people were allowed a sense of humour...

At some pongo fah paah event, a chap dressed up in the full comical Quality Street mess dress uniform of his Wedgiment, all pink breeches bum-freezer jacket and yellow strings, wandered casually across the front of the arena sporting a monocle and a very haughty expression like some cartoon chinless Woopert. Behind him trailed a black chap (brother officer in disguise who was in on the joke), bent double and festooned with a couple of GPMGs and several belts of ammunition. Whereupon the pretend Woopert studied the target, then turned to the black chap and announced in cut glass tones "Bearer! My gun if you please!".

Unfortunately the joke was lost on the hierarchy though...

[heights good]

I served in the ranks for most of the seventies when any hint of 'Gayness' would be hunted down punished & ultimately dismissed from the service.


Even today, I cannot imagine in my own mind openly gay people in service, thanks to the way it was then. It somehow reminds me of the American 'Black squadrons' of the second world war in a way.


I had left the service long before the instant 'About turn' & feel it must have been forced upon them, probably by the EU thing.


I would have liked to have observed this sudden 'About turn' seeing grim faced investigators having their cases dropped on the spot! Guilty one moment, not guilty the next.


I would have liked to have seen this change in attitude first hand & I suspect the whole thing was very carefully planned with new entries coming in all the time.


The whole 'PC' thing is very 'Pick & mix' I would support some arguments, but not others.

In a nice way, nobody really cares these days. If someone is a c*ck then they are a c*ck. Their religion, sex, sexuality, race or whatever else measure by which people can be offended doesnt really matter or feature in the equation.

I don’t mean this to sound glib, but times change for better or for worse and we can accept it and have a laugh in the mess with all and sundry or dig our heels in and slowly become angry, bitter and highly toxic. Either way, it’s happening, and I like beer 😀

[BEagle]

That well-known villain, the late RFK, could talk the knickers off a nun and was always finding a way to wind up our Boss.

They were once at some event in the US, when RFK spotted the USMC choir, all of whom were about 7ft tall with necks like birthday cakes, immaculate and as black as black could be. Somehow he secured their agreement, then burst into song singing "Way down in Alabama where the n.....s shovel coal". He completed the verse with the choir looking stony faced and the Boss could see his career about to spiral to earth. But then came the chorus - and the choir belted it out in pure harmony before joining RFK in fits of laughter. Another point scored over the Boss by RFK, who spent the rest of the evening with his new USMC chums...:ok:

[Flight_Idle]

In a nice way, nobody really cares these days. If someone is a c*ck then they are a c*ck. Their religion, sex, sexuality, race or whatever else measure by which people can be offended doesnt really matter or feature in the equation.

I don’t mean this to sound glib, but times change for better or for worse and we can accept it and have a laugh in the mess with all and sundry or dig our heels in and slowly become angry, bitter and highly toxic. Either way, it’s happening, and I like beer 😀



Times do change slowly, I remember reading orders that an airman could be put on a 'Punishment diet of one pound of bread & unlimited water for three days in a row & that was in the late seventies.


At about the same time there was a notice about guarding explosives & it said that 'If the airman is illiterate' the instructions must be carefully explained to him'.


This was late seventies & I'm not making this **** up, it's true!

[rolling20]

FYI the armed forces are exempt from age discrimination legislation.
Thank you, that goes without saying. I believe each of the armed forces can decide the age at which someone can be combat effective. My point is the cut off of 26. If you had a person fully qualified say on the A330 and they were 35 and wanted to join up, the 'combat effective' age barrier I would imagine be difficult to justify. All hypothetical of course.

[Teamchief]

Its probably best that I left when I did. Until recently I thought that LGBT was an acronym for Laser Guided Bomb (Training)!

[Ken Scott]

rolling20: a 35yo with an A330 TR can join up, with Air Tanker anyway, become a reservist & fly a Voyager for twice the salary of a regular.

[Old-Duffer]

Re Post 18 by Heights Good. I'm pleased that your experience of the Complaints Procedure has been positive - mine has not.

I was the Assisting Officer for a sqn ldr against whom a complaint had been made and it was crystal clear that the sqn ldr had, in fact, acted in the complainants best interest. At every stage the complainant rejected the findings and persisted all the way to the Ombudsman (woman).

At this point, the complainant resigned. The sqn ldr had been subjected to three years of absolute hell because of the complaint and the 'system' kept the process grinding on so as not to be accused of denying the complainant his right to due process. The complainant had been given huge amounts of leeway etc but it was my colleague who paid the price.

Old Duffer

[rolling20]

rolling20: a 35yo with an A330 TR can join up, with Air Tanker anyway, become a reservist & fly a Voyager for twice the salary of a regular.

Thank you, I didn't realise that was possible.

[Basil]

an airman could be put on a 'Punishment diet of one pound of bread
The lucky blighter! When I were lad . . . . ;)

Well, someone had to . .

[Wander00]

Beagle - that is very nearly another new keyboard. Thanks for a Monday morning laugh

[heights good]

Re Post 18 by Heights Good. I'm pleased that your experience of the Complaints Procedure has been positive - mine has not.

I was the Assisting Officer for a sqn ldr against whom a complaint had been made and it was crystal clear that the sqn ldr had, in fact, acted in the complainants best interest. At every stage the complainant rejected the findings and persisted all the way to the Ombudsman (woman).

At this point, the complainant resigned. The sqn ldr had been subjected to three years of absolute hell because of the complaint and the 'system' kept the process grinding on so as not to be accused of denying the complainant his right to due process. The complainant had been given huge amounts of leeway etc but it was my colleague who paid the price.

Old Duffer

No matter what system is put in place there will be abuses, it's a fact of life unfortunately.

[Ogre]

Its probably best that I left when I did. Until recently I thought that LGBT was an acronym for Laser Guided Bomb (Training)!

After leaving the mob I was working on a task involving the electric jet, and while wandering through the office I was stopped by one of our HR colleagues and a rather stern looking woman. I was introduced to the stern looking woman as "This is Ogre, one of our senior engineers...." Which I thought was strange as she was never that nice to me before.

Anyway, the stern looking woman explained she was conducting a survey and would I mind answering a couple of questions to which I gave my consent. She got out her clip board and asked me "what does LGB mean to you?" As I'd been working on the weapon aiming software I proceeded to describe laser illuminators, baskets, circular errors etc. At some point I glanced at the HR colleague, only to notice the smile on her face was very fixed and her eyes appeared to be drilling holes in my head.

Anyway, I finished my diatribe and looked at the stern faced woman for the next question, only for her to fold her clipboard away and launch into a detailed explanation of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people. She finished with a smug look on her face, expecting an apology until I pointed that "very good, but that's not what you asked..." and pointed out that the question was what did it mean to me.

At this point the HR colleague decided that the survey would be best conducted elsewhere and I was dismissed, never to be considered again...

[BEagle]

We were all told to attend an 'EO' brief one afternoon. Thinking that this was about electro-optics, we duly trooped in to the lecture room.

After a few moments some humourless woman started her brief and it became clear that it was some huggy-fluffy politically-correct 'Equal Opportunities' brief....:rolleyes: Which didn't much impress the assembled rabble. The lecturer mentioned the term 'VEM', which apparently meant 'Visible Ethnic Minority'.....

Whereupon one of our number said "I'm an African, I just happen to be white, so WTF am I - an invisible ethnic minority?". She had no answer. Then she started to talk about some trophy for the best-achieving VEM in the RAF. Came a comment from the floor "Ah - not so much the Top Dog trophy as the Top W*g trophy then. Because that's what people will call it!".

At this stage she gave up, showed some rubbish film and left. She and her colleague never turned up again, mercifully. Presumably we were written off as non-compliant with whatever policy was being inflicted upon the RAF by the PC brigade.

As for LGBTUVWXYZ briefs.....:ugh: "Live and let live. Any questions? No? Good - end of my brief!"

[Door Slider]

35yo with an A330 TR can join up, with Air Tanker anyway, become a reservist & fly a Voyager for twice the salary of a regular.

There are only about 14 (ish) sponsored reservists, they don’t do AAR and in the AT role they pretty much just keep current.

[Chris Kebab]

.....assuming they are "regular" Reservists why can't they do tanking?

[teeteringhead]

Then she started to talk about some trophy for the best-achieving VEM in the RAF. Think I've mentioned this before, but I happened to be with the well-known VEM Harrier mate when this was announced.

He was sooooo p!ssed off with the idea (white with rage would be going a touch too far!!). ;)

"Oh great" he said "A 'Best Little Black Boy Trophy'"

Swiftly followed by: "They'll have to give it to me anyway - I'm the most senior :mad: in the RAF!"

[izod tester]

In the late 1970s at Coningsby my The then DWRAF paid a visit to the Phantom OCU flight line. She asked if I had any qualms about employing WRAF there, adding “that I just had to make certain that they were not given tasks beyond their physical capability”. I replied “Excuse me Ma’am, I was not aware that I should task anyone with anything beyond their capability. Anyway, I already have 2 girls working here”.

[Basil]

Think I've mentioned this before, but I happened to be with the well-known VEM Harrier mate when this was announced.

He was sooooo p!ssed off with the idea (white with rage would be going a touch too far!!). ;)

"Oh great" he said "A 'Best Little Black Boy Trophy'"

Swiftly followed by: "They'll have to give it to me anyway - I'm the most senior :mad: in the RAF!"
From ethnically African paratroop following a little zero g (that's all we will admit to) event on a TriStar trooping flight:
"I turned white back there and it ain't a pleasant experience!"

[Basil]

In the late 1970s at Coningsby my The then DWRAF paid a visit to the Phantom OCU flight line. She asked if I had any qualms about employing WRAF there, adding “that I just had to make certain that they were not given tasks beyond their physical capability”. I replied “Excuse me Ma’am, I was not aware that I should task anyone with anything beyond their capability. Anyway, I already have 2 girls working here”.
Wonder if that was Air Commodore Pamela Joy Tamblin?
Interesting career:
Tamblin, Joy ? Station commander at RAF Spitalgate - Grantham Matters (http://www.granthammatters.co.uk/tamblin-joy-station-commander-at-raf-spitalgate/)

[goudie]

We had a cpl WRAF engine fitter on my sqdn., in Germany. She was a tough cookie and could also drink most of us under the table!

[Brookmans Park]

I thought LGBT was an airfield in Greece

[ExAscoteer]

Think I've mentioned this before, but I happened to be with the well-known VEM Harrier mate when this was announced.


This was the gentleman who, when a JP QFI, would turn finals and call:

"Finals, 3 greens, 1 black, 1 white!"

[gr4techie]

I remember having an ethnicity and diversity brief. The first thing the Lecturer asked was "why do you think the RAF does this"?

The audience reply was "just to cover their own arse".

There's a fine line between saying something and meaning it.

[sharpend]

I read this article.

If correct, and it seems so, I'm glad I have left the Armed Forces. For it to go all PC (Let's hug a tree), insist on broad selection of Gays, Lesbians and ethnic minorities, regardless of their ability, will end in a degradation of the Armed Forces. We have already seen word that NCOs cannot shout at recruits but treat them 'very nicely'. Will we see the request, 'I say Private, would you please kindly pop over that parapet and engage the enemy?' Maybe the reply will be, Sorry, I'm washing my hair this evening.

[pr00ne]

sharpend,

So you don't like gays eh? I'm glad that you have left too.

Try watching any of the myriad of recruiting programmes from all of the services over the last few years to see what nonsense your "non shouting NCO's" is.

As to your casual homophobia re stereotypes....

[sharpend]

sharpend,

So you don't like gays eh? I'm glad that you have left too.

Try watching any of the myriad of recruiting programmes from all of the services over the last few years to see what nonsense your "non shouting NCO's" is.

As to your casual homophobia re stereotypes....

Good evening to you pr00ne. Where on earth did you get that stupid idea from? :ugh: I have a number of friends who are indeed gay. You totally misunderstood my point which was that one should ONLY recruit the best, but not just by targets of numbers of gays, white, blacks, asians, women, men etc. That would be just like the parliamentary constituency that only allows asian women to stand as an MP. If one restricts the pool of applicants one lowers the standards. I am not homophobic and resent your remarks. Moreover, I categorically can say that I have no problem with gays, lesbians, whites, blacks or asians. The only people I dislike are bullies, louts, rude people, liars, cheats and especially people who are personally abusive to others on social media, even if they are ignorant of the facts.

[BEagle]

Well said, Bluntie mon brave!

Add to that list presumptuous Champagne Socialists.....:mad:

[pr00ne]

Sharpend,

From your words.

[Warmtoast]

Richard Littlejohn wrote a satirical piece in todays Daily Mail here:
RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: Celebrating diversity, lovely boy? Oh dear, how sad, never mind! | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5596793/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Celebrating-diversity-lovely-boy-Oh-dear-sad-never-mind.html)

[BEagle]

I know it's from Britain's equivalent of Völkischer Beobachter, but....
The military is already hamstrung by ambulance-chasing ‘yuman rites’ spiv law firms.

Is there any truth in that?

[Finningley Boy]

Times do change slowly, I remember reading orders that an airman could be put on a 'Punishment diet of one pound of bread & unlimited water for three days in a row & that was in the late seventies.


At about the same time there was a notice about guarding explosives & it said that 'If the airman is illiterate' the instructions must be carefully explained to him'.


This was late seventies & I'm not making this **** up, it's true!

Ah yes sir, but, how often at that time was this regulation acted upon?:E

I suspect never, hence one good reason why it perhaps isn't available to C.Os with even the most outrageous sense of humour. My take on Sir Nick Carter is, as has been said elsewhere on this thread, he's just catching up with the times.

FB

[Finningley Boy]

The Armed Forces needn't make an extra special effort to recruit from certain sections of the population. Its enough that all can join and subject to meeting the requirements on physical limitations and of aptitude and competence, will find an appropriate post to fill. It is the pro-diverse lobby that seem to want to make it a goal to restructure the entire image, make up (no pun intended) and dare I say ethos and culture of the armed forces comprehensively. Hence it is not good enough to just remove all restrictions and apply the logic of 'if you can make it you'll get it!' The political enforcement of political correctness is unnecessary and damaging.

FB:)

PS I would further observe that the political camp (again no pun intended) from which political correctness hails from is that which has never felt happy with even the existence of a standing military posture. They've also been at odds with any form of established authority and order, including the Police and Courts.

[Basil]

When I was a 16yo apprentice engineer (yes, yes, I know I have a long memory!) we had a very obviously gay engineer (think Benny Hill) return from doing his National Service in the Army. Didn't get him out of NS even though it was then illegal both in civ & mil.
No-one at work was vexed by his orientation so perhaps we were PC then and all the liberals for the past few decades have been jumping on a bandwagon which has been rolling for centuries.

[Flight_Idle]

Ah yes sir, but, how often at that time was this regulation acted upon?:E

I suspect never, hence one good reason why it perhaps isn't available to C.Os with even the most outrageous sense of humour. My take on Sir Nick Carter is, as has been said elsewhere on this thread, he's just catching up with the times.

FB



I never heard of the 'Punishment diet being implemented either, but it was definitely on the books. The RN used to flog naughty sailors with a big stick, up to at least 1969 & I don't know if that option is still on the books.


I was still at school in 69 when a former schoolmate paid us a visit from HMS Ganges to give us a talk about life there. He told us that if one misbehaved badly, one would get flogged on the buttocks with a huge cane. I know that some pay good money for that sort of thing, but I decided to join the RAF instead. I was tempted by the 'Rum ration' but even that's gone now!

[Finningley Boy]

I never heard of the 'Punishment diet being implemented either, but it was definitely on the books. The RN used to flog naughty sailors with a big stick, up to at least 1969 & I don't know if that option is still on the books.


I was still at school in 69 when a former schoolmate paid us a visit from HMS Ganges to give us a talk about life there. He told us that if one misbehaved badly, one would get flogged on the buttocks with a huge cane. I know that some pay good money for that sort of thing, but I decided to join the RAF instead. I was tempted by the 'Rum ration' but even that's gone now!

Who knows Sir, perhaps they might bring back the Bread and Water diet for all over weight personnel!? Only difference your sandwich will include some rocket, parsley, slim line dressing and Dolphin friendly Tuna!:ok:

FB

[gijoe]

I read this article.

If correct, and it seems so, I'm glad I have left the Armed Forces. For it to go all PC (Let's hug a tree), insist on broad selection of Gays, Lesbians and ethnic minorities, regardless of their ability, will end in a degradation of the Armed Forces. We have already seen word that NCOs cannot shout at recruits but treat them 'very nicely'. Will we see the request, 'I say Private, would you please kindly pop over that parapet and engage the enemy?' Maybe the reply will be, Sorry, I'm washing my hair this evening.

Utter bollox - you are better out. Anyone that uses the word ‘parapet’ to try and indicate their tactical awareness is best ignored.

Were you OC Accounts or Fuel? 🤨

[izod tester]

Surely the opinions of anyone who imagines that operations would succeed without either funding or fuel deserve very little attention.

[esscee]

gijoe, no sense of humour at all by the looks of it.

[Tankertrashnav]

Its a few years ago now and times may have changed but I remember having a conversation in my shop with an RAF engineer officer. He was of Indian origin and I asked him how the recruitment of Asian origin personnel was going, as I did not remember many in my time, particularly officers. He told me that in his case one of the main problems had been family pressure. From the point of view of an aspirational Indian family, joining the armed forces, even as an officer, was regarded as a step down in the social scale. We all know the cliche of the boastful Indian mother ("my son the accountant, my son the doctor, my son the solicitor" etc), but apparently "my son the RAF engineer officer" doesn't cut it, and in his own case his family definitely felt he could have done better for himself than join the armed forces.

[Haraka]

I had a similar conversation with a Jewish mate at University.He wanted to join the RAF but was pushed in to doing a Chemistry degree by his family as being "more fitting" than joining the armed services.

[Brian W May]

I'm with Sharpend on this one.

Bloody glad I'm out too. Getting a 'representative' number of each minority group to appease LDGs generally seems to lower standards.

Good for diversity stats though and that's all that'll interest these politicians in uniform.

IMHO :)

[Training Risky]

Well due to the recent constant harping on about the supposed gender pay gap in the UK, I looked up the MOD's report, which is a combined civil service and military report.

What made very interesting reading was this snippet:

MOD UK Armed Forces, the Department is reporting a mean pay gap of 0.93% (i.e. the difference between mean pay for men and women) and a median pay gap of 0.22%. There are far fewer women in the Other Ranks than men (particularly in the Army Other Ranks where women have not previously been able to apply for Ground Close Combat roles) and proportionally there are more females in the Officers ranks than in Other Ranks, compared to men. Overall, the Department’s position compares favourably with the UK’s national gender mean pay gap of 18.4%, but highlights that the MOD still has further to go.

Which means that due to the huge number of female officers in support arms cap badges/branches and an equally huge number of men in the (lower-paid) infantry, HM Forces is already only 0.22% away from being totally equal and fair to women!

By the way, I don't suppose you reading this, but if you are, Nick Carter - you are a total bellthronk. Please hand the CDS baton on to someone else who actually cares about fighting power and not spurious politics...

[Specaircrew]

I thought LGBT was an airfield in Greece

No, it's a Lettuce, Garlic, Bacon and Tomato sandwich!:)

[Wander00]

I am surprised those daft image consultants did not come up with a rainbow roundel.

[sitigeltfel]

PS I would further observe that the political camp (again no pun intended) from which political correctness hails from is that which has never felt happy with even the existence of a standing military posture. They've also been at odds with any form of established authority and order, including the Police and Courts.

..and they are the first ones to inflict mass executions, without the bothersome need for judicial process, when they gain power.

[Finningley Boy]

..and they are the first ones to inflict mass executions, without the bothersome need for judicial process, when they gain power.

Absolutely Sitigeltfel,

I understand Diane Abbott reckons World War II was the one conflict which Labour would have felt justified in supporting military action to resolve, obviously she means Corbyn's Labour'. The Billion Buck question here is, at what stage in the proceedings through the 1930s would a Corbyn, Abbott, Thornberry and McDonnell Government reverse the process of military downgrading and pursue sufficiently, the alternative process of re-armament to reach the point of being able to simply lose a series of campaigns against the Wehrmacht, in a seemly fashion. Never mind bring about a decisive defeat.

Doubtless we could also expect to be losing all Forces employed in the far reaches of empire as that great structure too would be in the process of being dismantled, with unseemly haste!

FB:)

[Heathrow Harry]

That's weird - it was LABOUR who were instrumental in ditching Chamberlain and they refused to back Halifax insisting on Churchill as they thought (rightly) that most of the Tory hierarchy were a bunch of fascist sympathisers

I think Ms Abbott's history is as good as her maths.............

[Wander00]

She is not IMHO the best advertisement for Harrow County Girls' School

[Finningley Boy]

That's weird - it was LABOUR who were instrumental in ditching Chamberlain and they refused to back Halifax insisting on Churchill as they thought (rightly) that most of the Tory hierarchy were a bunch of fascist sympathisers

I think Ms Abbott's history is as good as her maths.............

Pay closer attention HH, my hypothetical scenario imagines, to repeat; Corbyn, Abbot, Thornberry and McDonnell! Not; Atlee, Gaitskill and Bevin. I understand that Labour were happier with Halifax than Churchill, as the entire house was. Luckily you could say, Halifax refused to allow himself to be considered.

FB

[Finningley Boy]

Here HH,

Churchill's political position was weak, although he was popular with the Labour and Liberal Parties for his stance against appeasement in the 1930s. He was unpopular in the Conservative Party, however, and he might not have been the choice of the King. Halifax had the support of most of the Conservative Party and of the King and was acceptable to the Labour Party. His position as a peer was a merely technical barrier given the scale of the crisis, and Churchill reportedly was willing to serve under Halifax. As Lord Beaverbrook said, "Chamberlain wanted Halifax. Labour wanted Halifax. Sinclair wanted Halifax. The Lords wanted Halifax. The King wanted Halifax. And Halifax wanted Halifax." Only the last sentence was incorrect, however; Halifax did not want to become Prime Minister. He believed that Churchill's energy and leadership skills were superior to his own.[28]

You didn't go to the flix to see that fast and loose nonsense 'Churchill' and its attempt to try and afford a shred of credibility to Labour for the selection of Churchill to lead us onwards and upwards into Broad sunlit uplands at all? Did you?

Oh by the way, I think it is a breath taking sweeping broad brush stroke to dismiss most of the Chamberlain Cabinet as being Nazi sympathisers. Not after the Government had, in the preceding four years or so, initiated various re-armament programmes seeing the Spitfire and Hurricane arriving in large numbers already!:ok:

FB:)

[Bigpants]

Any chance of a Chief of Defense Staff who is less PC and more Grayson Perry?

[Wander00]

Is that Chief of Defence Staff?

[Heathrow Harry]

"You didn't go to the flix to see that fast and loose nonsense 'Churchill'"

I most certainly did not - I sat at home and reread the Authorised Biography - neither did I go and see "Dunkirk" or any other of the revisionist trash that clogs the silver screen

As I understand it Halifax felt he could not lead the country from the Lords - that was the main issue. Attlee had always believed Churchill to be a man of principle (also the worst Chancellor of all time) whereas Halifax was a long-term appeaser