British Airways FO Short Haul Roster?

[shaunier_r]

Hi guys and gals.

I'm currently on the BA Future scheme with L3 CTS, will be A320 at either LGW or LHR. Obviously have plenty of info re a 'typical' month (sectors/ hours etc) once I'm out there in the real world (!), but what I can't seem to find is an 'actual' example of a FO schedule for a month. Taking away the obvious nuances (experience/ bidding/ seniority/ etc.), it would be very interesting for any LHR or LGW based short haul flight crew to post a copy or snapshot of their actual typical months roster, even if not current.

Many thanks!

[JRK110]

It's not that bright an idea to be sharing rosters on public websites, this might be the sort of question better asked of your liaison pilot.

[RexBanner]

There’s no such thing as a typical roster on BA SH (certainly as regards to LHR) as the roster pattern is completely and utterly random depending on the construct of the line. Also bear in mind that for your first couple of years at the bottom of the list you’ll be doing a LOT of reserve.

[Cough]

And also, if you end up at LHR you'll be rostered by JSS. Nobody has any example rosters yet so any roster would be kinda unrepresentative.

[Stocious]

Reserve shared equally at LGW. Expect mostly 2 sector daytrips there, weighted towards weekend working if you're more junior.

[Jumbo2]

As other posters say above. There is absolutely no point in asking for a BA roster. Where there might be limited value in getting to see typical rosters if ones starts working for an airline, at BA there isn't any value in it what so ever.

Pilots in BA have so much roster control (long/short tours, day trips, weekends at work/off, long sectors, short sectors, typical destinations, avoid destinations, mid-haul, days off in big blocks or evenly spread over the month, etc) that what might be ones ideal roster is another ones nightmare. Therefor rosters are a very personal thing and just because a pilot gets a few mid haul trips, another might have mainly day trips because of her/his preferences. This isn't going to change with JSS.

[4468]

This isn't going to change with JSS.
You clearly must know something very many colleagues do not.

Since no full scale roster solution has been produced. I guess your statement is based on assumptions/faith?

There MUST and will be changes under JSS. Who knows what those changes will be? Certainly fabulous if you’re senior. Who will pay the price for that?

[Jumbo2]

You clearly must know something very many colleagues do not.

Since no full scale roster solution has been produced. I guess your statement is based on assumptions/faith?


Think you might have misread my statement. What I said is that with JSS getting ones rosters is still not much use for another person since also the roster produced with JSS is purely based on ones personal (bidding) preferences.

[GS-Alpha]

I think ‘purely’ is a strong word. I suspect it will be a bit more like what I’ve been told flying an Airbus is like. The pilot will make an input, and the computer will attempt to take it into account when deciding how to do what it wants to do.

You are right that individual pilots will still have different opinions about what constitutes a good roster, but I suspect far fewer people will achieve their idea of good.

[RexBanner]

There MUST and will be changes under JSS. Who knows what those changes will be?

If those changes consist of no longer having to bid for lines that are an unorganised mess of day trips and tours (which please virtually nobody considering most people are either day trippers or they’re tourers) then JSS gets my vote every day of the week. Although I’ll freely admit I’ll miss the transparency of bidline.

[4468]

For anyone ‘senior’ JSS will allow you to work pretty much any roster you wish. For anyone not ‘senior’ there will likely be very little ‘control’ indeed.

But hey. It’s all guesswork! All we can say at the moment is JSS wasn’t fit for introduction over the coming summer of crisis!

[Jumbo2]

Isn't the saying "you only have to be junior once"?

If you are joining as DEP LH that once might be a "bit" longer but you get the benefit of LH.

Joining as DEP SH that once is generally relatively short and you get the advantage that pretty much everybody on the fleet is in the same reserve banding, but you do work for it.

[4468]

you only have to be junior once
Oh indeed. although you didn’t hear that one so much when NAPS was closing! A much longer surviving mantra is “always take the first available command.” Certainly there’s likely to be a far keener interest in commands over the next few years with 600 ‘senior’ NAPS copilots hoping to protect their pensions, through promotion.

[VJW]

This thread makes me laugh - it's so pointless....

99% of it is simply regurgitated info/opinions that have been done a death on the other BA thread. The remaining 1% is the cadet who's lucky enough to be going to BA as their first job, asking about rosters?! As if there's even the tiniest chance they'll not go to BA because of any answer given. Personally I'd just concentrate on passing your training first time and worry about the roster in BA later. It's a legit question I'm sure, as there's nothing wrong with trying to plan your future a bit, but as has been demonstrated above you need a type rating in BA's rostering system to make any sense of it from the outside anyway.

[bex88]

VJW makes a good point.

You only have to be junior once! 😂 yeah right. Maybe if you have little career ambition other than do as little as possible in the RHS of a LH yet. Most FO’s want to jump to LH and most captains on SH are treading water. Be junior just once they say. Yes but you will wait 15 years or more for command. What’s LHS long haul? 20 years? If everyone was junior once we would be in a real mess.

Rosters for a junior pilot on short haul. Really not that bad. Think of it this way and you will be fine. A couple of reserve periods a year. Work most weekends and mostly 2 day 6 or dirty doubles. Possibly 18 days work a month. It will however improve providing recruitment continues. If it stagnates then it’s a rough ride for a while.

[3Greens]

VJW makes a good point.

You only have to be junior once! 😂 yeah right. Maybe if you have little career ambition other than do as little as possible in the RHS of a LH yet. Most FO’s want to jump to LH and most captains on SH are treading water. Be junior just once they say. Yes but you will wait 15 years or more for command. What’s LHS long haul? 20 years? If everyone was junior once we would be in a real mess.

Rosters for a junior pilot on short haul. Really not that bad. Think of it this way and you will be fine. A couple of reserve periods a year. Work most weekends and mostly 2 day 6 or dirty doubles. Possibly 18 days work a month. It will however improve providing recruitment continues. If it stagnates then it’s a rough ride for a while.
Why is being in the RHS seen to be doing as little as possible?

[byrondaf]

This thread makes me laugh - it's so pointless....

VJW what's wrong with someone seeking some information?

You were new once, don't forget it. I see from other posts that you're coming to EZY, don't ask any questions now will you...

[VJW]

VJW what's wrong with someone seeking some information?

You were new once, don't forget it. I see from other posts that you're coming to EZY, don't ask any questions now will you...

I won’t be asking you any. I’ll ask questions when the answers will actually help and/or affect the descison I need to make.

I remember doing my training and not having a BA job waiting for me at the end. Had that been the case I’m pretty sure the last thing I’d have been wondering was how often are they going to ‘make’ me fly!

Asking questions when any of the answers given here aren’t going to make any difference to a decision the OP needs to make is what I find pointless...

[bex88]

3 Greens. Allow me to expand on that. There is nothing wrong with being in the RHS at all. However those that persist in staying RHS are causing a problem. Look at what’s happening, a whole thread about minimum command hours and ok bids which don’t currently have the hours. LH SFO’s who refuse to move on for anything other than LHS LH and FO’s on SH who don’t want a command just LH because they don’t want to be junior for a decade.

It’s a fault of the system rather than the pilots. Simple solution really. LH aircraft should be “unsuitable for first command”. If you want to get on you do have to be junior more than once.

Anyway like I said there is nothing wrong with being RHS.

Back to the topic: FO rostering.

[4468]

bex88

Couldn’t agree more.

There are a few RHS LH, that have been sat in that seat far too long, and it shows! As you say, possibly more a fault of the system at BA, where LH copilots can be paid more than SH captains for a vastly superior lifestyle!

There’s always howls of protest, when talk of CSDs earning more than copilots rears it’s head. Why no such outcry when co-pilots are paid more than captains?

As I say. That’s the system.

[byrondaf]

I won’t be asking you any. I’ll ask questions when the answers will actually help and/or affect the descison I need to make.

I remember doing my training and not having a BA job waiting for me at the end. Had that been the case I’m pretty sure the last thing I’d have been wondering was how often are they going to ‘make’ me fly!

Asking questions when any of the answers given here aren’t going to make any difference to a decision the OP needs to make is what I find pointless...

What does it matter to you if someone is seeking information?? Your replies are so aggressive. I hope I never have to fly with you, you come across as a total k**b. If someone wants roster information, then that's up to them. No need to denigrate what someone's doing, just because YOU believe it to be pointless. I'm sure with your attitude, when you do ask someone, most people will just tell you to f**k off.

[wiggy]

LH aircraft should be “unsuitable for first command”.

Of course plenty of those on the RHS of long haul do have previous command time..I assume by first command you mean first command in BA?

Anyhow I think that before my time there was indeed a rule of “first command must be in short haul” in BA - can anyone confirm?

[Sygyzy]

Wiggy,

I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.

In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.

After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.

As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.

S

[condor17]

Wiggy ,
I confirm that back in the Trident days [ late 70's ] . 1st command had to be Short Haul . Some came kicking and screaming from Long Haul , and found they enjoyed SH . Some did not go back to LH , some hated it and returned LH asap . And some enjoyed their time and went back in the normal course of events .
Bit like the BCAL merger ; to keep command some BCAL guys came to Highlands and Islands [ Budgies and Parrots ] . Some really enjoyed it and fitted in well . Some hated it and FOIFP [ + off in fine pitch ] on the next Southbound Shuttle ..
Because [ of I guess costs of type ratings , freeze periods , and resentments ] that requirement of SH 1st disappeared .
Been gone nearly 9 yrs , so memory fades ... But it's really down to when your parents married and when you got on the seniority list of choice .
IMHO , enjoy whichever fleet you are on . They all have fun if you make it so .
Bid for command as soon as you are ready , leaving it late for lifestyle choices is folly . And can make it difficult , and if too late ; impossible .
Don't have LHR blinkers , there was [ and may be again ] BA aviation outside LHR . It was extreme fun and not lacking in remuneration .

rgds condor .

[bex88]

Wiggy: no I think command time on a jet in airline ops above xx Tonnes would be fine. If you pass the course you meet the standard and have command experience too. There just needs to be some encouragement to move. Maybe that should be financial because part time LH pays nearly as much as full time command SH.

[4468]

Of course it’s entirely possible that the upcoming rationalisation of P&P could solve the issue.

Join on SH. One move to LH RHS.

Next move must be SH P1. Followed by one move to LH P1!

End!

That would save the frankly bizarre nonsense. Not to mention hugely expensive, situation of people flip flopping between the same seat on different fleets, as and when the whim takes them.

Some might say it’s an easy give? Common sense? Better than other cost saving options.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Some might say it’s an easy give? Common sense? Better than other cost saving options.


I think it’s a terrible option and would remove one of the last remaining great things about flying for BA. We haven’t got many left after recent changes.

But it probably will rear it’s head as P&P costs are on the menu at waterside.

[RexBanner]

Cost is king in BA now (and has been for some time). Right to Left on Long Haul saves the company a fortune. Why? Because the senior FO’s who are holding out for Long Haul command are pay frozen and junior bods go in as Captains on Short Haul thus artificially reducing the cost base on Short Haul. It is nonsensical to claim that right to left on long haul costs BA more, quite the opposite. There is no financial imperative for the company to change this one that is for absolute certain.

Plus in relation to Priam, realistically how many pilots ACTUALLY jump from fleet to fleet every five years? I would wager the number is relatively minuscule in the greater scheme of things.

[Tay Cough]

I disagree Rex. Very senior shorthaul commands cost them money. A senior LH FO costs less than a draft trip a month short of a middle ground SH skipper. When you compare the two, what you want are junior SH skippers. Quite a few of our P1s are paid (a lot) less than EZ and RYR. Some FOs (LH and SH) are even going back. Granted, not in big numbers but the fact they exist at all is significant.

Wiggy,

I can confirm. When Colin Barnes was DFO he insisted on it. It became 'over my dead body Barnes', that people would move seats in LH and have to go shorthaul first.

In my case(1988) I went from RHS 747 to LHS 737 and then back to LHS 747 all within 6 months as nobody else wanted to move. Friends who went onto the shorthaul Tristar for their first command (how does THAT work) were back on the 747 having spent so little time on the Tristar that they had been unable to give sectors away due to insufficient command time.

After that huge waste of money the system fell into disrepute and first commands were on any type.

As an aside, at that time the (new) 744 fleet was having a hard time recruiting experienced F/O's as they'd be frozen for 5 years and therefore miss out on commands due to the back to shorthaul nonsense. A small number (6?) negotiated a guaranteed (in writing) right to left command if they would go on the 744 - and that's what they did. The system fell apart about a year later.

S

Fully understandable when it was 25 years to any command. There are some in the past couple of years who gained shorthaul LHR commands after 18-24 months (admittedly with previous command experience) so that perhaps changes the options. While there is an anomaly every few years (remember 7576 commands when it was retiring the first time!!), it may become the standard career for most (RHS then LHS SH, RHS LH then LHS LH - the US way really) - at which point, expect it to be fair game for the company to chase as it won't p!ss that many people off and it's significant to the bottom line. Demographically, we're sitting close to that position now - everyone senior enough for a LH command who wants one has got one, leaving those guys not senior enough who are "hanging on" a bit vulnerable....

[RexBanner]

I disagree Rex. Very senior shorthaul commands cost them money. A senior LH FO costs less than a draft trip a month short of a middle ground SH skipper. When you compare the two, what you want are junior SH skippers. Quite a few of our P1s are paid (a lot) less than EZ and RYR.

That’s my point exactly. Where’s the possible incentive for the company to change the status quo when they are artificially suppressing the cost of the LHS on SH with the P&P rules the way they are?

[4468]

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter what BA decide, or what their costs are.

Simple fact is, we now have 600 co-pilots who are suddenly heavily incentivised to take a command to protect their pensions. It just takes one ‘black swan’ event to bring the whole industry crashing. Any of those 600 NOT bidding for every available BA command, as soon as possible, are simply gambling that they can outsmart the cyclical nature of this industry!

Plenty of events in my time in the industry have seen the P&P system grinding to a halt! It’s very stupid to ever presume the status quo will prevail.

Bon chance!

[ETOPS]

In my book - the one I'm always "just about to write" - there is a whole chapter on permanent co-pilots. Some of it's hilarious...

Some of it isn't :uhoh:

[Doug E Style]

Well, I'll have a stab at answering the OP's question. Like others have said, there is no “typical” roster but there are the following types of trip on the Airbus:
Day trips (2 or 4 sectors)
Two-day trips (usually 3/3 but sometimes 1/3, 3/1 or even 1/1, depending on destination)
Three-days trips (usually 3/2/3, sometimes 3/4/3, 3/2/1 or 1/2/3, and a few with standovers so 3/0/3, 1/0/3 or 3/0/1). The Mid-haul trips to the Middle East are 1/0/1 or sometimes 1/0/0/1.
Four- and five-day trips can be anything from 3/4/4/3 to 3/2/0/2/1, again, depending on destinations. There are currently just over 40 destinations with night stops.
A few people do only day trips, a few do only long tours, but a large proportion of rosters will have a bit of everything. That’s the LHR situation; can’t help much with the LGW scene other than to say there are very few night stops; it’s almost all 2 or 4 sector day trips. Hope that helps.
Oh, I forgot to mention the LCY-JFK flights but as a new joiner you won’t get anywhere near them.

[Flap62]

The Seniority System’s biggest anomaly. Often lazy. Always doing the easy trips. Often selling the trips to junior P2’s to work even LESS hard.

Not all, but a great many are self-important pr__s who wouldn’t know a hard day’s work if it trod on their foot.

Ha. They’ll be here soon, to tell me off.

And when they DO do their Command course, they never quite understand the origins of their failure. 🤔

Apologies for drifting off topic but I want to re-assure the OP that the arrogant, patronising posts like the above and others from 4468 etc do not reflect the majority view in BA. One of the great things about BA is that it allows you to choose your work pattern to fit your lifestyle. The above posts would suggest that if you don’t get a command you are some sort of feckless loser.
I love how these posters sit anonymously behind their keyboards saying things they wouldn’t have the balls to say to my face. I am a relatively “senior” FO who stays in the rhs because lhs shorthaul would not suit me. That does not make me lazy or lacking in command potential. In a past life I made more command decisions in one hour than the average BA captain makes in one year.
Please do not think that these pompous, arrogant posts reflect the mainstream view. Most people respect the rights of the individual and are not blinded by the “BA Captains are Gods” view.

[Mizar]

Anybody who could pm me a 744 roster, if possible for junior rhs and general lifestyle and what s the view on the upcoming fleet reduction of the next years.
Cheers
Mizar

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Simple fact is, we now have 600 co-pilots who are suddenly heavily incentivised to take a command to protect their pensions

I’ll bet you my crap “bonus” very few of those 600 bid for a SH command, as their chosen commute or lifestyle choice simply won’t work with it. All the angry rhetoric in the world won’t actually make their decision any different.

[bex88]

Flap 62. In a past life I made more command decisions in one hour than the average BA captain makes in one year.

The best captains make you think you are making the decisions, the reality is they were there 5 minutes before. Not always for sure but I think you underestimate the roll.

The problem is the system not the pilots so let’s stop the infighting.

Anyway: FO Rosters anyone? What I can offer the OP is blindlines. 15 days a month roughly. Heavily weekend based and generally 2 day 6. But you will work less than TLH and trading can really help. You can submit a preference so you can avoid day trips if you wish. You can ask for a certain day off but weekends are hard to get.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Flap62.... Ex - RAF fast jets by any chance?

[Flap62]

Right engine.

Many thanks. You have professionally slandered me and many of my colleagues but hey ho, it’s only banter isn’t it? I tend to turn up to work fully prepared and treat everyone with the professional respect they deserve but, you crack on and feel free to catagorise the majority of 600 First Officers as workshy time wasters. I haven’t had the joy to fly with someone with your mindset but can only assume it is a privilege for most of your first officers. They can only bask in your magnificence and hear tales of how it used to be and how your pension is now.

Yes, ex military and proud of it. That’s not saying it’s better than any other route, just worthy of some respect rather than the sneering disregard of some of those who have, perhaps, only experienced the airline way of life.

[wiggy]

Blimey.. the OP’s question started something!!!!!

To help the onlookers seeing this spat as another reason for not joining BA/BA is full of****** can I risk offering my ex-mil, 15 years RHS then right to left, no short-haul, POV of the top few pages of two Long Haul Status lists:

The vast majority of time served guys in the Long Haul RHS work hard, are darned good, and have a heck of a lot of world wide route and tech knowledge.

A small majority offer all the above skills but rather than giving the impression they are working hard they actually make it look so easy and low key it’s sickening to the mere mortals amongst us. Now I know that sometimes rubs sensitive folk up the wrong way both in CRC and on the crew bus, especially if they witness bike box, wind surfer or golf clubs being carried, and I am sure that leads to the “off on their holidays again ” train of thought but those individuals also put the effort in.

Then there are a few who are staying in the RHS for perhaps compassionate/family/domestic/age reasons, but regardless of the why they can and usually do still fit into one of the above groups....and then, sure, there are perhaps some who are marginal when it comes to effort at the office but, fortunately and IMHO, it is a vanishingly small number..

To stay employed all the above are passing line checks, sim checks, etc.....

It might not be helpful but I have to make this comment: There is perhaps also a danger of some “pot to kettle” creeping into this debate. There are still one or two (less than it used to be; it will be that sort of number) at the top of short haul/mid-haul P1 lists who either really don’t like sleeping anywhere other than their own bed, don't like time zone changes, or simply won’t move to Long haul until they have the seniority to have a decent choice in monthly bidding...all life style reasons. Aren’t they also guilty of “bed blocking” by not immediately moving to somewhere more commensurate with their seniority number?

Sorry I see this has turned into a long post...so that’s all I want to say about that..

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Back to topic - Some LGW SH roster observations.

Its predominantly day trips, with some nightstops in GLA, EDI and JER. In summer, nightstops generally efficient 2 day sixes, occasionally with filthy links and low rest. There are currently some EDI layovers about at the weekend. In winter, we see some 3-5 day domestic tours which can be fun.

As far as bidding goes - Demand for nightstops usually outstrips supply, so a new entrant can't really rely on that for pay or commuting purposes.

In the summer expect blocks of 5 or six days on. Minimum 11 days off a month, reducing to 10 in two months of the year. It gets complicated when you take leave though. So it can be really full on. It is now.

At quieter times you might be able to score a nice run of days off, and be coming in to work for leisurely there and backs.

Night fights exist. Usually landing between 0000 and 0230, but there are one or two that go later and even land back in daylight. They're unavoidable really - everyone will do one or two, some more. Can do a max of 2 in a row, and get rest of the day off after last one.

Reserve is done in blocks of 4-6 days. Mix of standing by at home (2 hours) or the airport, or allocated a trip. Sometimes a nice way to spend some time at home - DIY/golf/garden etc. Sometimes you get pumped. :ugh:

Generally - Plan on day trips, and having to commute each day. I think the train is doable from London/Redhill/Brighton/Horsham, and bus from Crawley, but anywhere else or further afield and you'll need a car.

And bickering's not allowed here - the place is too small!

[Right Engine]

100% agreed Wiggy

[Doug E Style]

Oh, I say there !
Well done that chap.
Public school chums have to put the scruffy little oiks in their place.
I mean it’s just not cricket, when the lower echelons of low cost carriers get hired.
I dare say they went to a comprehensive, or god forbid flew turboprops.
Then they have the audacity,

British Airways should be the preserve of the priviladged CTC graduates.
What is the world coming too.
What ever next “What ho Darkie?”
It’s just not on, I tell you.

Privileged people would know how to spell privileged correctly.

[finncapt]

Is tongue in cheek dead on BA flight decks these days?

Seems to me these new chaps/esses take life far too seriously.

[bringbackthe80s]

With regards to the Senior long haul fo's, it all sounds rather like sour grapes to me. You people joined to work hard for very little? Go back to your LCC if it bothers you.

Oh my!
How arrogant can you be?? There is life outside of BA you know? No need to answer like that I'd say.

Whatever people say on here, long haul short haul nightstops blah blah blah, the bottom line is you'll stay in the rhs for a VERY long time if long haul is your thing. As long as you are happy with that (and with a London base) then there you go.

[hunterboy]

How about those that want to apply can apply, and those that don’t don’t? The rest of us can get on with our lives and plod into work when we have to. (With or without golf clubs and velo vault).

[eckhard]

It’s a Toc H lamp, actually old boy.