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Haraka
6th Apr 2018, 18:28
We are witnessing an increasing number of episodes of stabbings and even shootings on the Streets of London, seemingly perpetuated by youngsters who are to a greater or lesser degree apparently members of street gangs with drug and crime "territories".
Whilst the well-meaners try to push the onus of responsbility on to society in general ,usually with a political agenda, one basic fact seems to be overlooked.
The perpetrators of these offences gain status ( "street cred"?) for such acts within their antisocial and criminal communities which ,to them, are a source of reference and separate from the broader communities in which they nest. Even ( too short) prison sentences seem to be a source of pride.
So how do you remove such "status''?.
In medieval times, humiliation was used as a mechanism for showing Society's disapproval for such activities.
Whilst not looking to the Alf Garnett "Brand 'em!" approach, I do wonder if subjecting them to a demonstration of public ridicule and humiliation might not be inappropriate.
A modern equivalent to a session in the stocks, being bombarded by members of the community with rotten fruit (or any appropriately derisive and unpalatable modern equivalents ) comes to mind, "Community Service" obviously being a joke to such a sub-culture.
Anybody got any up-to-date suggestions?

MG23
6th Apr 2018, 19:01
Good Lord, man. That would violate their Human Rights!

Jack D
6th Apr 2018, 19:08
Under no circumstances allow black or to a certain extent Asian youths to carry knives .. let alone guns; very un pc I know !
Stop and search until it hurts ..sack the mayor of London who is clearly ineffective and stop this nonsense .
The decent members of the black / Asian community of which there are many m, will be grateful .
Destroy the gangs incl the E Europeans ( Albanians ) full term prison sentences and subsequent deportation !
Sounds harsh ... but what we are doing at the moment is failing !

Chronus
6th Apr 2018, 19:25
If the old addage is true, we are never more than six feet away from a rat. So on the basis that the population of London is 9 million, there would be at least 9 million of the rotten blighters at least. Overcrowded as they are, they are bound to start biting each other sooner or later.

BirdmanBerry
6th Apr 2018, 19:30
I think with these moped gangs anything should be game. The police should be allowed to knock them off their chicken chasers without fear of getting their necks felt. They feel they're untouchable.

BehindBlueEyes
6th Apr 2018, 19:54
If they could just stick to killing each other, I wouldn’t actually have a problem. It’s a bit like Mother Nature self regulating the control of vermin. When there’s too many of them, they start attacking each other.

It’s when it spills out into the general populace, that the authorities need to clamp down hard. And let’s not be coy about this; you only have to look at the ethnicity of the perpetrators and their victims. Why no outcry from these groups? Don’t “black lives matter” when it’s taken by another black person or is the score only kept went it’s a white murderer?

This isn’t a racist rant; we had enough white scum during the Kray years running around untouchable and lawless, delivering their idea of justice but I’m afraid you only need to look at similar street behaviour in Jamaica to see an equivalent trend.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/jamaica

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/jamaica-state-of-emergency-montego-bay-extended-may-uk-tourists-st-james-a8195696.html

Saintsman
6th Apr 2018, 20:47
It doesn’t help that a prison sentence is all about rehabilitation.

Make it a punishment and it might be more effective. 5 years of being locked in a room 24/7 (and without parole) for example, would certainly make them think twice.

Exponential terms for repeat offender should be introduced. Any cost would be worth it.

BehindBlueEyes
6th Apr 2018, 20:52
It doesn’t help that a prison sentence is all about rehabilitation.

Make it a punishment and it might be more effective. 5 years of being locked in a room 24/7 (and without parole) for example, would certainly make them think twice.

Exponential terms for repeat offender should be introduced. Any cost would be worth it.

Totally agree. It seems that prison, in its present form, is just an occupational hazard for some.

G-CPTN
6th Apr 2018, 21:12
Didn't the Mayor of New York instigate a sort of zero tolerance purge that drastically reduced the crime rate?

Dicky Cressida has committed an extra 300 police officers to patrol the streets and stop the confrontations.

Yea, right - that'll work.

Apparently, the altercations are drug-dealing related.

mikemmb
6th Apr 2018, 21:15
“......To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.”
Robert Peel 1829 (extract from the founding principles of the police).

No prizes for guessing what our “Target Driven” police action in dealing with crime has led to?

Ignore petty crime and the inevitable outcome is Serious Crime!

MG23
6th Apr 2018, 21:49
Ignore petty crime and the inevitable outcome is Serious Crime!

Come now, the British police never ignored petty crime when I was there. OK, it might take a day for a cop to come and look at your burgled house and give you a crime number for insurance and then ignore the burglary, but they never seemed to have a problem finding a dozen cops to sit at the side of the road looking for expired tax disks or speeders.

mikemmb
6th Apr 2018, 22:12
Come now, the British police never ignored petty crime when I was there. OK, it might take a day for a cop to come and look at your burgled house and give you a crime number for insurance and then ignore the burglary, but they never seemed to have a problem finding a dozen cops to sit at the side of the road looking for expired tax disks or speeders.

Ahh Road Crime now we are talking “Targets Met” tick boxes!

Crime Reported = Tick
Suspect Identified = Tick
Suspect Aprehended = Tick
Suspect Guilty = Tick
Suspect Punished = Tick
Crime Solved = Tick

....... Wow a full house, go to the top of the class.

If you were judged by the number of ticks produced what would you do?

Tankertrashnav
6th Apr 2018, 23:34
Personally now I am shelling out over £300 for road tax (and I know some people are paying a lot more) I hope the police are actively seeking out tax dodgers. I pay my share - why shouldn't everyone else?

Doors to Automatic
6th Apr 2018, 23:42
Set up slave camps in Siberia. Caught dealing drugs or carrying a gun, off you go for 10 years. No one would want to go back and for anyone that does, next time it is life.

WingNut60
6th Apr 2018, 23:58
Set up slave camps in Siberia. Caught dealing drugs or carrying a gun, off you go for 10 years. No one would want to go back and for anyone that does, next time it is life.

Ummm.... you did that in the 1700's / 1800's; populated the West Indies and Australia with your riff-raff.
And quite a few to USA prior to 1770.
In those cases it was the riff-raff who didn't want to go back home.

But now you've gone and imported another load?

Those who ignore history ............

Krystal n chips
7th Apr 2018, 07:52
If they could just stick to killing each other, I wouldn’t actually have a problem. It’s a bit like Mother Nature self regulating the control of vermin. When there’s too many of them, they start attacking each other.

It’s when it spills out into the general populace, that the authorities need to clamp down hard. And let’s not be coy about this; you only have to look at the ethnicity of the perpetrators and their victims. Why no outcry from these groups? Don’t “black lives matter” when it’s taken by another black person or is the score only kept went it’s a white murderer?

This isn’t a racist rant; we had enough white scum during the Kray years running around untouchable and lawless, delivering their idea of justice but I’m afraid you only need to look at similar street behaviour in Jamaica to see an equivalent trend.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/jamaica

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/jamaica-state-of-emergency-montego-bay-extended-may-uk-tourists-st-james-a8195696.html

Fresh from their resounding success with regard to the defence of property, or rather the JB derivative of the UK's legal system, the two being mutually exclusive as we know, it's hardly a surprise to read the collective erudite philosophies being offered by JB's revered social scientist coterie.

To answer one relevant point is actually quite simple, at least if you have any vestige of humanity within you.

ALL lives matter.... it doesn't make one iota of difference as to ethnicity.

But as we know, it's not that easy or simple to solve the problem with just this belief alone.

This is a lengthy article, some of you may wish to stock up on organic tea, coffee, fruit juice and artisan crafted toast before reading it, but for those who can cope with commentary that isn't Mail and / or JB inspired, it contains issues which are unlikely to garner much support on here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/06/david-lammy-kids-are-getting-killed-where-is-the-prime-minister-where-is-sadiq-khan

C4 have also been covering the tragic events in some detail over the last few days, and their reports didn't make pretty viewing....the stark reality of life and death and the after effects on the families involved rarely does.

And, in case you miss it, there's a reference to the recreational habits of Wisteria Avenue land, home to many JB contributors idyllic residences, where all the residents live harmonious and exemplary lives....when not snorting their brains out that is.

sitigeltfel
7th Apr 2018, 07:58
Dick Whittington imagined London's streets to be paved with gold, but found muck and shit.
Enoch Powell wasn't so deluded.

West Coast
7th Apr 2018, 12:27
Well, whatever you do, don't look to Chicago for guidance.

Rosevidney1
7th Apr 2018, 13:41
Or the Grauniad!

Highway1
7th Apr 2018, 14:36
Fresh from their resounding success with regard to the defence of property, or rather the JB derivative of the UK's legal system, the two being mutually exclusive as we know, it's hardly a surprise to read the collective erudite philosophies being offered by JB's revered social scientist coterie.

To answer one relevant point is actually quite simple, at least if you have any vestige of humanity within you.

ALL lives matter.... it doesn't make one iota of difference as to ethnicity.

But as we know, it's not that easy or simple to solve the problem with just this belief alone.

This is a lengthy article, some of you may wish to stock up on organic tea, coffee, fruit juice and artisan crafted toast before reading it, but for those who can cope with commentary that isn't Mail and / or JB inspired, it contains issues which are unlikely to garner much support on here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/06/david-lammy-kids-are-getting-killed-where-is-the-prime-minister-where-is-sadiq-khan

C4 have also been covering the tragic events in some detail over the last few days, and their reports didn't make pretty viewing....the stark reality of life and death and the after effects on the families involved rarely does.

And, in case you miss it, there's a reference to the recreational habits of Wisteria Avenue land, home to many JB contributors idyllic residences, where all the residents live harmonious and exemplary lives....when not snorting their brains out that is.

Dont you think its rather ironic that you are taking lessons in combating crime from someone whose hero is Winnie Mandela..

Argonautical
7th Apr 2018, 16:02
Lots of African countries are desperate for foreign exchange so we could pay them to house our prisoners. The possibility of serving ones sentence in, for example, a Ugandan prison would be quite a deterrant.

BehindBlueEyes
7th Apr 2018, 17:15
Fresh from their resounding success with regard to the defence of property, or rather the JB derivative of the UK's legal system, the two being mutually exclusive as we know, it's hardly a surprise to read the collective erudite philosophies being offered by JB's revered social scientist coterie.

To answer one relevant point is actually quite simple, at least if you have any vestige of humanity within you.

ALL lives matter.... it doesn't make one iota of difference as to ethnicity.

But as we know, it's not that easy or simple to solve the problem with just this belief alone.

This is a lengthy article, some of you may wish to stock up on organic tea, coffee, fruit juice and artisan crafted toast before reading it, but for those who can cope with commentary that isn't Mail and / or JB inspired, it contains issues which are unlikely to garner much support on here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/06/david-lammy-kids-are-getting-killed-where-is-the-prime-minister-where-is-sadiq-khan

C4 have also been covering the tragic events in some detail over the last few days, and their reports didn't make pretty viewing....the stark reality of life and death and the after effects on the families involved rarely does.

And, in case you miss it, there's a reference to the recreational habits of Wisteria Avenue land, home to many JB contributors idyllic residences, where all the residents live harmonious and exemplary lives....when not snorting their brains out that is.

There’s a very strong inference in the Guardian piece by David Lammy that the lack of ethnic MPs or representation is a partial cause of the unrest. So, tell me what is there to stop a candidate from any minority group standing? (Ironically, though ‘the ethnic minority’ in London may well be your WASP) It’s very typical, across all society, that despite the shouts of “we want something done about it” and “what are you doing about it?” when it comes down to it and it requires a bit of effort, it’s more like, “Er, not me guv. Too busy. Don’t want to get involved. Etc etc” Apathy rules and consequently, we get the leaders we deserve.

Rather than bemoaning the fact (and perhaps implying inverted racism) that there is a lack of cultural diversity in our MPs, maybe they should be voting for the person who most committed to improving conditions rather than their colour/gender?

Mr Lammy is in a stronger and more privileged position as MP for Tottenham do more than most of us to campaign for improvement amongst his fellow elected. The article didn’t do him any favours and reinforced my suspicions, that in fact, HE is as racist as those he accuses of it.

chopper2004
7th Apr 2018, 17:48
Remember an episode of the Equalizer (late Edward Woodward) where McCall was combatting students turned crims whose leader says they can do anything. It starts of with a female student being sexually assaulted then stabbed later on.

"The Equalizer" Sea of Fire (TV Episode 1988) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0572579/?ref_=ttep_ep2)

Took those responsible to see an autopsy to show the stark reality of what would happen. Result was some had queasy stomachs and tried to leave the room (wuth pathologist saying "son you want to put your mask back on").

Afterwards they went into next room being the stores area to listen to a reformed gang member who died and resuscitaed / back from dead.

Watched BBC news back in the 90s to see how the LASD/LAPD use novel way to discourage and punish drink driving. They do this by taking the perps to see an ICU in action then to ME office to see an autopsy.

Just a thought

cheers

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Apr 2018, 17:57
I’m afraid you only need to look at similar street behaviour in Jamaica to see an equivalent trend.
We hear that the criminals moved to Mo Bay after being cracked down on elsewhere. So the current crackdown in Mo Bay will, one assumes, simply cause them to move back to Kingston and Spanish Town ...

galaxy flyer
7th Apr 2018, 23:52
Ummm.... you did that in the 1700's / 1800's; populated the West Indies and Australia with your riff-raff.
And quite a few to USA prior to 1770.
In those cases it was the riff-raff who didn't want to go back home.

But now you've gone and imported another load?

Those who ignore history ............

Yes, but back in the day, the crimes punished by transportation were generally pretty minor. The violent criminals like these went straight to the gallows, sadly no longer possible.


Gf

WingNut60
8th Apr 2018, 00:02
Lots of African countries are desperate for foreign exchange so we could pay them to house our prisoners. The possibility of serving ones sentence in, for example, a Ugandan prison would be quite a deterrant.

Australia has tried that one too, with our recent "illegal immigrant crisis"

Not very successful that.

WingNut60
8th Apr 2018, 00:10
Yes, but back in the day, the crimes punished by transportation were generally pretty minor. The violent criminals like these went straight to the gallows, sadly no longer possible.

Gf

In some or many cases, yes.
But the contention that the crimes punished by transportation were generally pretty minor is over-done.
There were a lot of very hard men (and women) sent out as transportation.

My g-g-grandfather, for stealing a calf.

krismiler
8th Apr 2018, 01:03
Bring back the rope and the cane, and the problem will soon go away. The link below gives a good example of how well these work.

https://www.internations.org/singapore-expats/guide/29460-safety-security/safety-law-and-crime-in-singapore-16092

NutLoose
8th Apr 2018, 05:36
Good Lord, man. That would violate their Human Rights!

surely if you put them in a reflective tabbard , their rights would be seen to be adhered too.

sitigeltfel
8th Apr 2018, 07:21
There was a "rapper" in the press last week bemoaning the killings.

Oh, the irony!

ehwatezedoing
8th Apr 2018, 11:14
It doesn’t help that a prison sentence is all about rehabilitation.

Make it a punishment and it might be more effective. 5 years of being locked in a room 24/7 (and without parole) for example, would certainly make them think twice.

Exponential terms for repeat offender should be introduced. Any cost would be worth it.
Problem is you are not locked into a room 24/7 but in a compound 24/7.
Compound that pretty much act as a university for Master/Doctorate/Degrees (take your pick) In violence.



Rehabilitation into crime yes :=

goudie
8th Apr 2018, 11:17
With regard to transportation, quite a few who were sent to Oz were forgers. Being literate they recorded their experiences which is why the period is well documented

As for the gangs of scrotes, the return of birching and hard labour is one answer but it’ll never happen.

Dan_Brown
8th Apr 2018, 11:25
When they did away with corporal punishment in schools, it was the writing on the wall. For me, at any rate.

Now, that weasel Khan has done his best to curb police "stop and search" powers was the final nail.

Years ago i suggested to cops had lost the streets. I was shouted down big time. Well they don't seem to have to much control, do they??

Buster15
8th Apr 2018, 11:38
When they did away with corporal punishment in schools, it was the writing on the wall. For me, at any rate.

Now, that weasel Khan has done his best to curb police "stop and search" powers was the final nail.

Years ago i suggested to cops had lost the streets. I was shouted down big time. Well they don't seem to have to much control, do they??

Remember that the previous Home Secretary one Mrs May was very reluctant to allow STOP AND SEARCH.
It is highly unlikely that the additional 300 police on the streets will be sustained for long.
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we ought to implement the successful model used by New York. I never thought that London would experience over 50 murders in such a short space of time.

jindabyne
8th Apr 2018, 11:46
From the Guardian fan ---

the collective erudite philosophies being offered by JB's revered social scientist coterie.


I'd far rather subscribe to those 'erudite philosophies' than those of the hypocritical left alluded to by Highway.

And Enoch wasn't at all deluded.

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Apr 2018, 11:50
the successful model used by New York
The "successful model" that consistently results in more murders than London? (Give or take the odd transient statistical blip.)

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Apr 2018, 11:54
And Enoch wasn't at all deluded.
https://hinterlandblog.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/im-dreaming-of-a-white-smethwick/

andytug
8th Apr 2018, 12:21
You can invent all the punishment you want, if you don't catch the perpetrators in the first place it's an empty gesture, and it doesn't stop the crime from being committed. Problem is too many kids in all "communities" are being brought up to think that minor or even middling crime is OK, or even normal. Unless you teach people early that certain things are unacceptable, it's too late. Law and order relies on the public by and large behaving themselves and not being selfish***** to each other, the police can only cope with a certain level of crime and I think we passed that level a long time ago.
Prevention takes a lot of time and resources, neither of which find much favour with politicians who want a quick cheap fix so they can look good.....

ATNotts
8th Apr 2018, 12:33
I was watching a report on BBC News yesterday in which they had analysed the murder / violent crime rate in London, compared to other UK cities and came up that in fact other UK cities actually have a higher rate than London at the moment. I'm having trouble finding a link to the report at the moment, but if I can locate it I'll edit with a link.

What that tells me is that because it's London, and the media is by and large based there inside the "London bubble" it has got reported, and built up out of all proportion.

What to do about it is another matter. "The stock answer of "Bobbys on the beat" I really don't believe has anything to do with it. It's usually the people in nice, low crime areas who complain they don't see them anymore, but then if you're deploying resources efficiently there's no point in having police constables walking the beat in nice, safe leafy suburbs - they need to be visible in areas of high crime - and when they are there they need to be doing something - and that doing something should be being proactive in stopping suspects on a targeted basis. That may lead to complaints that too many of this, that or the other minority group is being discriminated against, but if the largest number of perpetrators and victims comes from a particular group then that is the group that needs targeting; not to the exclusion of others of course.

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Apr 2018, 12:50
What to do about it is another matter. "The stock answer of "Bobbys on the beat" I really don't believe has anything to do with it. It's usually the people in nice, low crime areas who complain they don't see them anymore, but then if you're deploying resources efficiently there's no point in having police constables walking the beat in nice, safe leafy suburbs - they need to be visible in areas of high crime - and when they are there they need to be doing something - and that doing something should be being proactive in stopping suspects on a targeted basis.
Gosh, it's so rare to come across someone else who understands this ... :ok:

On some of my visits to the police station the "targeted basis" has been a set of mug shots and details up on the wall of the briefing room, with their release dates in big red letters so that they can be watched the moment they come out.

Highway1
8th Apr 2018, 13:33
What to do about it is another matter. "The stock answer of "Bobbys on the beat" I really don't believe has anything to do with it. It's usually the people in nice, low crime areas who complain they don't see them anymore, but then if you're deploying resources efficiently there's no point in having police constables walking the beat in nice, safe leafy suburbs - they need to be visible in areas of high crime - and when they are there they need to be doing something - and that doing something should be being proactive in stopping suspects on a targeted basis. That may lead to complaints that too many of this, that or the other minority group is being discriminated against, but if the largest number of perpetrators and victims comes from a particular group then that is the group that needs targeting; not to the exclusion of others of course.

Never going to happen - if the Police tried it then you would have the likes of David Lammy, Sadiq Khan and Shami Chakrabarti screaming blue murder. Far easier to simply blame it on 'Tory cuts'

419
8th Apr 2018, 13:40
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we ought to implement the successful model used by New York. I never thought that London would experience over 50 murders in such a short space of time.

The "successful model" that consistently results in more murders than London? (Give or take the odd transient statistical blip.)

Even if NY has on average, more murders than London this doesn't mean that their crime fighting and reduction isn't working.
The annual murder rate there has dropped consistently from a peak of 2200 in 1990 to about 300 last year and violent crime in general is also falling so yes, I would say that what they are doing is successful.

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Apr 2018, 14:03
Never going to happen - if the Police tried it then you would have the likes of David Lammy, Sadiq Khan and Shami Chakrabarti screaming blue murder. Far easier to simply blame it on 'Tory cuts'
You have to get the targeting right, of course, otherwise you're wasting police time anyway. Target groups might seem (I'm not a police strategist so I may be wrong here) to include things like

- criminals
- gang members
- associates of criminals and gang members who haven't actually been caught yet

and so on. Going after "groups" like

- hoodie wearers
- people with tattoos
- big men with shaven heads
- council flat dwellers

and so on would "obviously" be both wrong politically and wrong in terms of effectiveness.

The cops ought to know everybody of interest on their patch so efficient targeting should not be a problem. If they don't, then they're not doing they job, and this should be fixed, whether through better training, better leadership, more cops, different recruitment policies, or whatever it takes.

chevvron
8th Apr 2018, 15:34
Well, whatever you do, don't look to Chicago for guidance.

You obviously never watched Chicago PD or heard of Hank Voight.

chevvron
8th Apr 2018, 15:42
There’s a very strong inference in the Guardian piece by David Lammy that the lack of ethnic MPs or representation is a partial cause of the unrest. So, tell me what is there to stop a candidate from any minority group standing? (Ironically, though ‘the ethnic minority’ in London may well be your WASP) It’s very typical, across all society, that despite the shouts of “we want something done about it” and “what are you doing about it?” when it comes down to it and it requires a bit of effort, it’s more like, “Er, not me guv. Too busy. Don’t want to get involved. Etc etc” Apathy rules and consequently, we get the leaders we deserve.


You hear about this all the time both 'we must have more ethnic minority MPs' and 'we must have more female MPs' etc.
This constitutes 'positive discrimination' ie favouring one group over another, which is just as illegal under equalities laws as discrimination against a particular group.
Are MPs not aware of this?

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Apr 2018, 16:37
You hear about this all the time both 'we must have more ethnic minority MPs' and 'we must have more female MPs' etc.
This constitutes 'positive discrimination' ie favouring one group over another, which is just as illegal under equalities laws as discrimination against a particular group.
I think it isn't actually? - I think Labour won in court over all-women short lists?

In real life most elected politicians are, or at least start out as, councillors, and most councillors got to be candidates not by fighting a contested selection but by having their arms twisted. And if you're in a area where most of the politicians are white male computer programmers you can wish all you like to have a brown female non-techie candidate, but that doesn't mean you'll succeed in finding one whose arm you can twist. (You can't advertise, of course, because that will let the other side know that you're short of candidates - of course all parties are always short of candidates, and we all know this anyway, but we aren't going to admit it in public.)

sitigeltfel
8th Apr 2018, 16:52
The vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated by one demographic against their own people.
The political representatives of this demographic create merry hell if the authorities take the only effective action necessary to tackle the bloodshed.
While the affected demographic continues to vote into power people who are obviously not willing to address the core problem, the question needs to be asked, "why bother"?

Carbon Bootprint
8th Apr 2018, 18:02
You obviously never watched Chicago PD or heard of Hank Voight.Please tell me you forgot the emoticon on this one...

galaxy flyer
9th Apr 2018, 02:14
The vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated by one demographic against their own people.
The political representatives of this demographic create merry hell if the authorities take the only effective action necessary to tackle the bloodshed.
While the affected demographic continues to vote into power people who are obviously not willing to address the core problem, the question needs to be asked, "why bother"?

Got that right! Answer being, don’t bother.
GF

krismiler
9th Apr 2018, 02:45
Exactly, drive by shootings in da hood or drug deals gone wrong in the ghetto don’t affect people who matter so why bother ? The American police have a term for it, NHI meaning no humans involved.

Problems start when ordinary decent people who vote and pay taxes become victims.

galaxy flyer
9th Apr 2018, 15:35
51% of US murders are committed by American males who happen to be black and under 30.

GF

chevvron
9th Apr 2018, 15:40
Please tell me you forgot the emoticon on this one...

Regretfully I've not got that facility for some reason; wish I could.

Highway1
9th Apr 2018, 15:43
51% of US murders are committed by American males who happen to be black and under 30.

GF

who account for about 2% of the total US population..

VP959
9th Apr 2018, 16:25
The cops ought to know everybody of interest on their patch so efficient targeting should not be a problem. If they don't, then they're not doing they job, and this should be fixed, whether through better training, better leadership, more cops, different recruitment policies, or whatever it takes.

Therein lies a significant part of the problem. Years ago, "beat Bobbies" did tend to know everyone on their patch, and could have a pretty good guess as to who might be up for any particular crime.

According to a police officer acquaintance, they now spend so much time on the road and change to a different patch virtually every shift, that they rarely get to know anyone in the area they are looking after.

We have two officers in one vehicle covering 9 villages, with the distance across the patch covered being around 7 miles, with a relatively large population (just added up the populations of the villages our two cover, and it's around 15,000 people). One of the villages is a bit notorious for having a problem with anti-social behaviour by youngsters, so inevitably the car spends much of its time there. We never, ever, have either a police officer or a PCO on foot patrol in any of these areas, so the chance of the police knowing what's going on locally is pretty slim.

The village I grew up in had a resident police officer, living in a police house in the centre of the village, who was often seen around the village, either on foot or riding his bike. He'd lived in the village for years, and knew just about everyone, so was probably an invaluable source of inside knowledge as to who the likely criminal contingent were.

The problem is that we're never going to have the money available to go back to the way policing was done 40 or 50 years ago, are we?

BehindBlueEyes
9th Apr 2018, 17:01
Therein lies a significant part of the problem. Years ago, "beat Bobbies" did tend to know everyone on their patch, and could have a pretty good guess as to who might be up for any particular crime.

According to a police officer acquaintance, they now spend so much time on the road and change to a different patch virtually every shift, that they rarely get to know anyone in the area they are looking after.

We have two officers in one vehicle covering 9 villages, with the distance across the patch covered being around 7 miles, with a relatively large population (just added up the populations of the villages our two cover, and it's around 15,000 people). One of the villages is a bit notorious for having a problem with anti-social behaviour by youngsters, so inevitably the car spends much of its time there. We never, ever, have either a police officer or a PCO on foot patrol in any of these areas, so the chance of the police knowing what's going on locally is pretty slim.

The village I grew up in had a resident police officer, living in a police house in the centre of the village, who was often seen around the village, either on foot or riding his bike. He'd lived in the village for years, and knew just about everyone, so was probably an invaluable source of inside knowledge as to who the likely criminal contingent were.

The problem is that we're never going to have the money available to go back to the way policing was done 40 or 50 years ago, are we?

Agree with you totally. :ok:

I also think, and this is going to sound so old fashioned, there is no respect for anyone in authority. A lot of parents today automatically side with and defend their offspring - no matter what they’ve done. Their kids are brought up to think they are unaccountable and that they’re owed something by society. If they get ticked off, they’re either being picked on” or they’ve got “special needs” The police, particularly, are perceived automatically as the enemy.

I bet we’ve all got stories of misdemeanours we committed that we were petrified of being reported to our parents. As a kid I remember jumping on barges on our local canal with my mates to see how far we could get without touching land. Pretty innocent boy stuff but I got caught and giving a right roasting by the local bobby. He told me to go straight home and that my parents would be hearing about it. I pooped myself every time the doorbell or the phone rang for the next few days as I knew I’d get a double whammy from my mum when she found out, particularly as ‘the police’ had been involved - the shame! He never did report me but the fear was such a deterrent, I never went near those bloody barges again and quite right too, I wasnt aware at the time but I was being nuisance to those living there and need to be told.

Now it’s all about the right to express ones self, whatever the consequences your actions have on others.

HEMS driver
9th Apr 2018, 17:12
When knives are outlawed, only outlaws will have knives.

Knives don't kill people; people kill people.

London is now known as Londanistan.

goudie
9th Apr 2018, 17:17
You only have to witness some parents berating the ref., at youngsters week-end football matches, to see the lack of respect for authority.
I too was a bit of a tear-away as a boy but was duly punished when caught. Lesson learnt!

pax britanica
9th Apr 2018, 17:28
We do not have to become Nazi Germany to make a dent in this , just bring back stop and search but in a more targeted way.
Speak to 'community leaders' first and say look this hands off approach has not worked and its mostly your neighbours getting killed not white people in Hampstead so for 6 -12months we are going to intensify targeted S&S actions in this neighbourhood. At the same time make carrying a knife witha blade longer than 3 inches a crime. Carrying an unlicensed gun is prison , no trial no debate nothing.

I agree with some of the comments about prison so people caught in such an operation get 6 months to a year mostly in solitary in a disused RAF base in the middle of no where.

But all these things cost money we dont have so lets stop spending billions trying to solve the worlds problems (when we caused a fair number of them in the first place) like Syria and Iraq let alone trying to kick start the cold war again and spend the time and money on our own problems.

Jack D
9th Apr 2018, 17:41
We do not have to become Nazi Germany to make a dent in this , just bring back stop and search but in a more targeted way.
Speak to 'community leaders' first and say look this hands off approach has not worked and its mostly your neighbours getting killed not white people in Hampstead so for 6 -12months we are going to intensify targeted S&S actions in this neighbourhood. At the same time make carrying a knife witha blade longer than 3 inches a crime. Carrying an unlicensed gun is prison , no trial no debate nothing.

I agree with some of the comments about prison so people caught in such an operation get 6 months to a year mostly in solitary in a disused RAF base in the middle of no where.

But all these things cost money we dont have so lets stop spending billions trying to solve the worlds problems (when we caused a fair number of them in the first place) like Syria and Iraq let alone trying to kick start the cold war again and spend the time and money on our own problems.

No need to ask “community leaders” stop and search rigorously . Inform them but don’t give the impression they have any input in police tactical decision making

VP959
9th Apr 2018, 18:19
I lost count of the number of times, as a youngster, I was threatened with being reported to Sgt Bowden (our local police Bobbie who lived in the village). Yes, he was known to give the odd wayward youth a clip around the ear if he felt it was deserved, but he also earned respect, even from us teenagers.

One example I can remember is when he caught two of us, aged about 13 or 14, pushing our stripped down, ex-GPO BSA Bantam along a lane to ride it in some local woods. He gave us a lecture on the law, and that even by pushing the bike on the road we still needed insurance, road tax etc, and the bike had to be road legal (which it clearly wasn't).

He made us turn around and take the bike back to my friend's place. A day later he came around to see us, and said he'd spoken with a local farmer who'd given permission for us to ride the bike around the edge of a field that was pretty close by. He also said that if we could make some sort of trolley to transport the bike, maybe a modified soap cart, then we wouldn't be breaking any laws. His final gesture was to donate two second hand crash helmets to us (the old white ones with a peak and cork lining) and insist that we wore them, then he wished us good luck and hoped we'd learn to ride safely, adding that if we fell off in the field he didn't think we had as much chance of hurting ourselves as riding around the woods.

Is it all likely that a police officer today would have the time, will and patience to go to so much trouble to keep two lads from breaking the law and riding a field bike in a reasonably safe place?

Krystal n chips
9th Apr 2018, 18:46
Agree with you totally. :ok:

I also think, and this is going to sound so old fashioned, there is no respect for anyone in authority. A lot of parents today automatically side with and defend their offspring - no matter what they’ve done. Their kids are brought up to think they are unaccountable and that they’re owed something by society. If they get ticked off, they’re either being picked on” or they’ve got “special needs” The police, particularly, are perceived automatically as the enemy.


Now it’s all about the right to express ones self, whatever the consequences your actions have on others.

We seem to have been watching too many repeats of "Heartbeat " and wallowing in nostalgia thereafter.

But a good point about authority and not trusting those in authority or having any respect for them.

For many, in positions of authority, and state authority in particular, the opportunities to abuse this are endless. So it's not surprising really, that, over time and societal development when evidence of these abuses of power emerge, rational people start to question the integrity of those involved and naturally distrust them.

This doesn't just apply to policing . And one of the reasons "Stop and Search" was quietly reduced was the decidedly skewed stopping of ethnic groups. Funny that.

As for authority, here's one gentleman's plight that will gladden the hearts of many on here....well he's not white and he's an immigrant so he jolly well deserves it what !

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/09/special-needs-teacher-uk-50-years-loses-job-immigration-status

As for abusing authority , I suggest you look up the debacle in Liverpool at present. It concerns the "Anti Litter Patrols"..... a stalwart band of black boiler suited otherwise unemployable individuals ostensibly formed to combat the City's litter problem and cigarettes in particular. Fine you may say, litter is anti social as we know. And you can be fined with a FPN for doing so, which also happens to be a nice little revenue generator for the Council. How to raise revenue therefore....easy, don't take on a young, fit, Liverpudlian on a night out, instead, target late middle aged visitors to the City outside their hotel after breakfast and before departing on their respective coach trips for the day.

I have a healthy disdain and contempt for authority having witnessed too many abuse and abrogate their authority in equal measure o including fairly recent times.

Back to yet another hallowed JB theme...the halcyon days of the 50's and before, when everybody knew their place in society and don't you dare question those in authority !

Jack D
9th Apr 2018, 19:14
This doesn't just apply to policing . And one of the reasons "Stop and Search" was quietly reduced was the decidedly skewed stopping of ethnic groups. Funny that

What’s your point ? Surely that’s exactly as it should be ?

BehindBlueEyes
9th Apr 2018, 19:53
Not sure why you always want to take everything to the extreme KnC? I suppose that’s what a Thought Police Antagonist does for a living I guess.

I don’t want a return to the 50s - forelock tugging to the toffs etc - and certainly when I was growing up, there were also a few in positions of authority who definitely abused their power. I had teachers who were total, irrational bullies and in the 70s/80s there was a lot of police corruption, especially the Met.

However, you might not like the fact that certain types of crime tend to follow certain enthnicities. Statistically, far more fraud is committed by white people, gun crime currently seems to be more of a black issue and internet scams at the moment seem to be Asian based.

I would defend to my last breath every individuals right to protest and oppose (peacefully) their right to express themselves - but not at the expense of law abiding citizens. When there were the Broadwater Farm riots about police brutality, why was it deemed acceptable by a large number of the black residents to a) think it was ok to loot premises and help themselves to whatever they fancied and b) far more horrifically, think it was fair game to hack of a policeman’s Head for a ‘trophy’?

jindabyne
9th Apr 2018, 20:33
Krystal n chips

I have no wish to begin a personal and public altercation with you.

So I won't. But I'll send you the address of my pub if you wish to call in.

Pseudo intellectual response anticipated.

Curious Pax
9th Apr 2018, 22:59
This doesn't just apply to policing . And one of the reasons "Stop and Search" was quietly reduced was the decidedly skewed stopping of ethnic groups. Funny that

What’s your point ? Surely that’s exactly as it should be ?

The point is that before it was reduced, stop and search only proved useful in about 10% of cases. Therefore 90% of the time the only result was to wind up the innocent. If you really want to get back to some respect for the police that had to change.

Lantern10
9th Apr 2018, 23:20
OK this is in America so apologies for a slight thread drift but this guy has the right idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M6oXow4N8s

parabellum
10th Apr 2018, 00:53
Carrying an unlicensed gun is prison Correct, it is, five years with no mitigation. Mr Blair gave you that.



Selling, buying and carrying knives


The maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is 4 years in prison and an unlimited fine. You’ll get a prison sentence if you’re convicted of carrying a knife more than once.
Basic laws on knives

It is illegal to:

sell a knife to anyone under 18 (16 to 18 year olds in Scotland can buy cutlery and kitchen knives) unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62cm) or less
carry a knife in public without good reason - unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62cm) or less
carry, buy or sell any type of banned knife
use any knife in a threatening way (even a legal knife)
Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives:

have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener
Banned knives and weapons

It is illegal to bring into the UK, sell, hire, lend or give anyone the following:

butterfly knives (also known as ‘balisongs’) - a blade hidden inside a handle that splits in the middle
disguised knives - a blade or sharp point hidden inside what looks like everyday objects such as a buckle, phone, brush or lipstick
flick knives (also known as ‘switchblades’ or ‘automatic knives’) - a blade hidden inside a handle which shoots out when a button is pressed
gravity knives
stealth knives - a knife or spike not made from metal (except when used at home, for food or a toy)
zombie knives - a knife with a cutting edge, a serrated edge and images or words suggesting it is used for violence
swords, including samurai swords - a curved blade over 50cm (with some exceptions, such as antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954)
sword-sticks - a hollow walking stick or cane containing a blade
push daggers
blowpipes (‘blow gun’)
telescopic truncheons - extend automatically by pressing button or spring in the handle
batons - straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons
hollow kubotans - a cylinder-shaped keychain holding spikes
shurikens (also known as ‘shaken’, ‘death stars’ or ‘throwing stars’)
kusari-gama - a sickle attached to a rope, cord or wire
kyoketsu-shoge - a hook-knife attached to a rope, cord or wire
kusari (or ‘manrikigusari’) - a weight attached to a rope, cord, wire
hand or foot-claws
knuckledusters
Contact your local police (https://www.gov.uk/contact-police) to check if a knife or weapon is illegal.
Good reasons for carrying a knife or weapon

Examples of good reasons to carry a knife or weapon in public can include:

taking knives you use at work to and from work
taking it to a gallery or museum to be exhibited
if it’ll be used for theatre, film, television, historical reenactment or religious purposes, for example the kirpan some Sikhs carry
if it’ll be used in a demonstration or to teach someone how to use it
A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife or a weapon if you’re charged with carrying it illegally.
Last updated: 3 March 2017

Krystal n chips
10th Apr 2018, 04:59
Not sure why you always want to take everything to the extreme KnC? I suppose that’s what a Thought Police Antagonist does for a living I guess.

I don’t want a return to the 50s - forelock tugging to the toffs etc - and certainly when I was growing up, there were also a few in positions of authority who definitely abused their power. I had teachers who were total, irrational bullies and in the 70s/80s there was a lot of police corruption, especially the Met.

However, you might not like the fact that certain types of crime tend to follow certain enthnicities. Statistically, far more fraud is committed by white people, gun crime currently seems to be more of a black issue and internet scams at the moment seem to be Asian based.

I would defend to my last breath every individuals right to protest and oppose (peacefully) their right to express themselves - but not at the expense of law abiding citizens. When there were the Broadwater Farm riots about police brutality, why was it deemed acceptable by a large number of the black residents to a) think it was ok to loot premises and help themselves to whatever they fancied and b) far more horrifically, think it was fair game to hack of a policeman’s Head for a ‘trophy’?

Fascinating to learn you consider the content of the post to be extreme but no matter.

And a rather simplistic attempt at profiling to put it mildly.

Here's a more relevant perception of matters.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/apr/09/ben-jennings-on-police-cuts-and-cartoon

But, as you have mentioned Broadwater Farm, we have a contributor who has filmed there for the BBC in a production capacity, so possibly he could shed some light on the location and the residents grievances.

jindabyne.

Be delighted.... if you are paying for the drinks, the taxis, the overnight accom and the train fare old boy !

But shurely, sorry about the semantics here, if you don't wish to discuss your clearly heartfelt sentiments in public, then, erm, a public house ( herein may lie a clue ) isn't really the best venue.

And the other potential stopper for me accepting your kind invitation is this....does this pub sell "Boddy's " ( I will accept "Robby's " as an alternative however )

fitliker
10th Apr 2018, 05:01
It saddens me to hear how London has changed. It used to be such a nice friendly place . I have many fond memories of good times in London .
I do hope they get it sorted soon ,as it used to be so nice with so much to do and see.

BlankBox
10th Apr 2018, 08:43
http://pro.magnumphotos.com/CoreXDoc/MAG/Media/TR2/c/b/9/0/LON5196.jpg

Jack D
10th Apr 2018, 14:32
The point is that before it was reduced, stop and search only proved useful in about 10% of cases. Therefore 90% of the time the only result was to wind up the innocent. If you really want to get back to some respect for the police that had to change.
H
10 % not a bad result .. out of 1000 searches 100 discoveries of illegal weapons ! The 90 % who are upset
should appreciate that they might well be a future victim .. these searches are usually handled fairly respectfully imo . More likely is that it will be viewed as political suicide, with potential lost votes,
The reward is outweighed by the risk
Politically speaking . Where do these stats come from ? it’s a hard one to quantify .

galaxy flyer
10th Apr 2018, 16:17
Scary times in Blighty, people might be carrying scary weapons, wait, I mean tools.

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/04/09/omg-take-a-look-at-these-weapons-found-by-british-police-during-a-sweep/

sitigeltfel
10th Apr 2018, 16:25
Scary times in Blighty, people might be carrying scary weapons, wait, I mean tools.

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/04/09/omg-take-a-look-at-these-weapons-found-by-british-police-during-a-sweep/

An electricians tools?

Cressida Dick would have ordered him shot.

goudie
10th Apr 2018, 16:47
Some of those tools don’t appear to be dangerous but the burglar recently stabbed to death, allegedly threatened the homeowner, who killed him, with a screwdriver.

BARKINGMAD
10th Apr 2018, 16:52
You mean like the poor unfortunate walking home from the pub a few years ago carrying a chair leg in a plastic carrier bag?

Spotted by the armed and hyped up officers, assessed as a threat and shot dead.

Nobody charged with his manslaughter so that's all right then?

Til the next innocent victim and the next.......... :suspect:

Curious Pax
10th Apr 2018, 17:28
H
10 % not a bad result .. out of 1000 searches 100 discoveries of illegal weapons !

Nope - 100 arrests for anything. Unfortunately I can’t find stats for a breakdown of the reason, but you can bet your bottom dollar that drugs not weapons are the leading cause.

sitigeltfel
16th Apr 2018, 10:36
And so it goes on...

A man thought to be in his 20s died in hospital after being attacked in Colindale, north-west London, while a woman in her 30s died at the scene of a stabbing in Brixton (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43778579), south London.
An 18-year-old man is in a critical condition after a third separate stabbing three hours later, on Sunday.
More than 35 people have been stabbed to death in the capital so far in 2018.
A woman in her 20s has been arrested in connection with the Colindale attack.
London stabbings: Two dead and one critical in three attacks - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43781191)

HEMS driver
16th Apr 2018, 16:38
https://patriot.imgix.net/314ee231c3ced66e3fbf0ebb8e480e967f7fbfdaba9de1ede5027c96324f 2833.jpg?w=720&auto=format